Let's talk about turn based battle systems for a bit. The JRPG kind of battle systems...

Let's talk about turn based battle systems for a bit. The JRPG kind of battle systems. For a long time I thought that turn based JRPG battle systems were incredibly boring but now I think they are very solid and quite fun but at the same time they are plagued with problems that make everyone think that they are boring. I think I've pin-pointed a few things that I think are wrong with turn-based battle systems.


The big problem with turn-based JRPGs is that most of them are incredibly easy to cheese through. Although the game might have very complex and interesting mechanics underneath, all of that is lost when you don't actually have to master them to beat the game. The problem with most of JRPGs is that it's far too easy for a person to just grind through. Although doing things in a strategic fashion allows you to play through the game more efficiently, it's not necessary to do so. A way to combat this is to make enemies and bosses that require the player to adopt a different strategy than just mashing through the game. A good example of this would be Matador from SMT, not really a hard boss but a one that would be very hard to beat if you don't care about team building and using other skills than offensive ones.


The problem is that JRPGs often have very simplistic bosses, a boss becomes to the player nothing more than a rare enemy with a bigger healthbar that does more damage. JRPGs should have more bosses that require you to think well about your strategy and the strengths and weaknesses of your team. On the other hand the problem with enemies is that, even if they require strategy to beat, discovering that strategy will be fun only once before you have to fight those enemies over and over again during your trip to the dungeon. To fix that I think more JRPGs should have randomized versions of the same enemies with slightly different skillsets, stats and weaknesses. It would be far more fun if instead of coming across fixed groups of enemies you would have to fight randomized groups with enemies taken from a rooster for a particular location. That would force the player to think of what he's doing all the time, because suddenly he might come across a group that has a healer, or an enemy that casts debuffs so he would have to use different tactics to get through the encounter. Too often do the encounters feel more as an unnecessary obstacle on the road to the boss who is the real meat of the game instead of their own little challenges. The encounters should be a way for the player to learn a certain set of skills and to test those skills on constantly changing fights, not an annoying obstacle or just a way of training your team to be ready for the real fun fight although that might be acceptable in cases when training your characters is a theme, like in Pokemon or similar games of that type.


The moment you start fighting with the monsters, you feel as if you're in a completely different game than the rest of the game. Western RPGs don't have this problem because most of the time, everything that happens, happens on the same screen. This isn't a big problem but it makes the battle feel like they are breaking the flow of the game, instead of being an actual part of it. I do not know how that problem could be fixed without drastically changing the gameplay, but usually introducing monsters that move on the map and take you into the battle screen if you touch them makes it slightly more bearable than random encounters.


One of the bigger problems with JRPGs is that there is usually no other way of gaining experience points than fighting stuff. That makes balancing the game far harder and often forces the player to grind because often the characters in JRPGs unlock important skills only after gaining a certain level, which creates a problem with using them otherwise. This leads to fighting the same groups of enemies over and over again which becomes tedious. There are many ways to fight this. You can introduce other ways of gaining EXP than fighting, you can make the game more equipment based rather than level based therefore limiting the grind that the player has to go through. You can also just balance the game carefully, so that as little grind as possible is necessary. The way of fixing the lackluster enemy design also works. You can also just roll with it and make sure that the reward for grind is enjoyable enough so that the player feels good about all that work he put into the game.

What do you think Holla Forums?

Cheesing doesn't matter. In fact, knowledge of game mechanics to allow you to sequence break and power game and get good shit early is a good thing, both fun and rewarding. See ff12

Requiring a certain order of spells and attacks every fight is just obtuse. Casting blind and then doing something else to win every fight is just boring. If its going to be simplified why not let me use fire three times or just attack?

Most of what you wrote is true, but you have to consider some other factors.

You mention the ability to grind past everything, but many JRPGs these days make grinding optional- even fanservice wank like Neptunia can be played through with no grind if the player is willing to learn the mechanics. The JRPG scene is split between people who actually like grinding and people who don't; the solution was to make it optional and let the player decide. In the West people act like you must grind if it's possible to do so, but usually that isn't true.

The problem with poorly designed JRPG enemies is part of a universal problem: look at bulletsponge enemies in a shitty FPS. Bad game designers are all over the place, the only solution is to do your research on the game before putting time into it. The solutions you offer (randomized enemy groups) is actually already in many JRPGs such as Dragon Quest- one group might have a bunch of tough enemies, another a healslime, etc. As mentioned before, many people choose to grind through them instead of thinking through it.

The "movement field" -> "battle field" system has stuck around for no good reason really. It made sense with limited hardware, now it's done just for the hell of it. Of course there are notable exceptions like Chrono Trigger.

That ties into your previous issue with "The cheesing through factor" (grind). Again, many JRPGs are designed to make grind optional. Some are just shitty and require grind, but that's true of every genre.

The problem is that cheesing through a JRPG DOES NOT require any knowledge of the game mechanics. And I'm not talking about bosses that need certain skills to win. I'm talking about bosses that require you to use tactics instead of just bashing a button.

They're just boring m8

SMT: Nocturne seems to imply otherwise.

Some JRPGs did it right like FF4 DS/PC/Mobile where bosses are hard when you dont know the game. But it turns into MMORPG tank and spank fights without the tanking where you use party buff spells on your first turn and use your damage skills the following turn (and healer will just use the anti status spell like Esauna or what it was called in FF or AoE party heal) A typical bad JRPG boss fight looks like this:

Turn 1: Member 1 uses defense skill on party to make boss deal less dmg on your team, Member 2-3-4 uses dmg
Turn 2: Member 1 uses healing on you whole team while dmg 2-3-4 use their strongest dmg skill/spell/whatever on boss
Repeat turn 2 until boss is dead. Works in all terribad turn based JRPGs

Tab targeting is just like turn based FF ATB combat just with the fact that you also need to avoid special attacks the boss are doing. But when you think about it combat in tabtargeting MMORPGs are the same combat as in ATB FF games

i refuse to even discuss turn-based games because people choose to use square enix and nintendo as a reference point, instead of games for adults.

call me when you guys are ready to discuss wizardry and smt.

nope

That's what I used as an example to my posts man.

Still, even with Square Enix Chrono Trigger was good

Videogames are toys for children. The developers, publishers, and normalfag parent thinks so.

and every single post after that has name dropped square enix games, congratulations.

let's talk about pokemon you fucking faggots

While I don't play JRPGs I do have something to say about turn based combat in general.

Most of the time the RNG feels like it really hampers you because you launch your attack with the same probability of hit each turn and have no way of knowing the odds.
I feel Dwarf Fortress adventure mode offers a novel solution by offering so many combat options while showing the probability of success for each one. This leads to interesting choices for the player as while it would be nice to land an axe blow to the neck it's more likely that you will hit a wrist, this won't end the fight but it does reduce the odds of the enemy landing a successful attack on you.

I would like to see this kind of combat system become more widely adopted as it greatly increases immersion, offers the player more options and removes the cheated feeling that often comes with a RNG miss.

Fallout 1 and 2 featured the ability to target specific body parts in turn-based combat. Unfortunately, it was also possible grind your Small Arms skill to the point where you could shoot out the eyes with 95% accuracy all the time. That's the main problem, more complexity requires more attention to game balance from the devs and we're in critically short supply of that worldwide.

I really liked the way Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter did this. If you encounter an enemy in a hallway, the fight itself would naturally take place within that hallway. The enemies were no slouches either and the only way to heal was through items. The only way to get said items is from fighting and is based on your performance. So the better you do means the more cash you have, the worse you do means a quick game over. Enemies don't respawn either, so you can't just grind your ass off. First pic sums everything I liked about the game.

One thing I'd like to see more of is team actions similar to how Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land did. These actions could consist of forming a shield with your frontline preventing an enemy horde from just rushing you down. Another involved a backline caster holding an enemy in place with a spell while a frontline member would attack at the same time to reliably hit the speedy but squishy enemies.

It may be a touhou fangame, but the normal fights and the bosses in Genius of Sappheiros consistently kicked my ass in a way a JRPG hadn't done to me in a long time.

Was like I was back in FF1 again, having to actually manage my resources carefully and slowly pushing in deeper with every dungeon attempt.

Felt good, man.

a game that specifically marketed itself as a JRPG that was easy enough for casuals to enjoy that couldn't handle real turn based combat?
have none of you looked into the marketing angle square took towards their JRPG's?

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The Battle for Wesnoth is the best turn-based strategy RPG.

It blows Advance Wars and Fire Emblem out of the water.

Wesnoth also filters out casuals and scrubs because these people ragequit using "rng" as an excuse.

A lot of replayability, content, fun Tolkien-esque lore, multiplayer modes, tons of add-ons, it's by the far the greatest open-source and turn-based strategy game.

shocking

Yeah, it had pretty tough combat but it's hardly an example games that really make you apply strategy, 6&7 at least were just contests to see how broken you could be with shit like kirijutsu and hiding, not to mention in 6 where the bosses fought with random enemies so it was beneficial to reload until you got 1 enemy instead of 24 accompanying a boss.

DID SOMEONE SAY TURNS?

ITT: post assholes that get FAR TOO MANY FUCKING TURNS

I honestly don't like how full of shit the RNG is, missing 5 80% attacks just to get hit 5 times by 30% ones in a row and killed is not what I'm looking for in a strategy game.

You raise good points, OP, and I want to add one thing that PERSONALLY turns me off from JRPGs: linear character progression.

Each time you gain a level, everything is chosen for you. You gain some stats, maybe a new skill, and…that's it. The skill might not even be fun or useful, it's probably just a bigger nuke spell. What if I WANT to dump all of my points into dex? What if I WANT to have a character dedicated to nothing but buff spells? I can't make those decisions at all.

Furthermore, there's no talent trees or feat system to make any kind of meaningful decisions. In NWN, you can advance your character in crazy fucking ways, like switching between bard and fighter levels and then picking up eldritch knight, or making a pure STR rouge, or a barbarian/druid who stacks rage with wild shape. (You might not actually be able to do that last one) JRPGs give you basically nothing, other than team composition. There are exceptions like Pokemon where you can do crazy breeding shit to teach Charizard Surf, but those tend to be the exception rather than the rule I find when it comes to JRPGs…and the surfing Charizard is locked behind a ton of grinding.

A lesser gripe I have is that JRPGs often shove a ton of stats in your face without really telling you what said stats do, sometimes not telling you what they do at all, leaving you to simply guess. It's reasonable to assume that STR increases melee damage, but DEX? PROBABLY ranged damage, but maybe accuracy…oh wait, there's also AGI, and that one might be accuracy and DEX might be critical hit? Or maybe AGI affects turn order and movespeed? I've NEVER seen a JRPG that explains exactly how much those numbers affect you in combat. How much damage EXACTLY does one point of STR give me? How much damage reduction does one point of STA give me? I actually would like to know these things, especially when the baseline numbers are in the thousands. I actually AM that autistic, thank you very much.

Play a good turn based game.

It's the only system that translates well to mobage.

Using a move that gives him more turns to use the move that gives him more turns to use the move that gives him more turns to use the move that gives him more turns.

Just cast a buff and debuff on him. Doing that plus hitting him with zio spells makes it an easy fight. He spends his turns dekaja and dekunda-ing, or buffing himself and reversing what you did. If you do it right he shouldnt do too much to you.

I hate Dimension Shift in Shadowverse. It gives player an extra turn right after the one they played it and it basically turns the match into a game of solitaire.

Naturally Blizzard implemented nearly identical spell in Journey to Un'Goro

You think extra turns are bad?
You don't know shit

What bugs me more is when I go to look up that information online but can't find them, even in the in depth walkthroughs etc. The information was never given out and no English speaker has ever sat down and to figure it out.

I always see people complain about D-shift being solitaire yet it has always been one of the most interactive control decks the game has. Sure you can't interact with the combo except by putting a lot of taunts in front of it, but it plays a lot of removal and has to react to everything you are doing or lose.

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Wrong genre. I wouldn't recommend Fallout Tactics ITT either.

This is actually one of things I thought about mentioning in the OP. You're right, it would be far more fun if the games allowed you to create your own build, but most of them force you into a certain team. It is still fun figuring out how to use that team but I think that building your own team would be even more fun.


I agree with this, also, we need more "limb chopping off mechanics", they are always incredibly fun

This is one of the things I love about the old Mario RPGs. You get to decide what stat to increase at each level up, and they usually explain what each stat does.

I recall Dragon Quest doing something similar, but there really aren't many examples

Also
FUCKING BADGES
Brilliant system, that was.