Is squall dead?

No.

Fuck it, going to dump.
Uh huh. A dream, a fantasy, a vision, or whatever you want to call it. The “dream” is basically an extension of the “your life flashes before your eyes” concept. The entire dream takes only a matter of seconds, but for Squall is passes in real time. For Squall, it’s about the endless possibilities he could have seen realized. Squall explores the questions that were raised on the first disc but he was not able to answer in his lifetime. These questions include, but are not limited to:

Who is the Sorceress Edea? What are her goals and motivation? Where do her powers come from? Why was Seifer in the parade with Edea when he was reported executed? Who was the girl (Ellone) that Squall and Quistis saw in the Garden training center? Who is Laguna and why did Squall, Selphie, and Zell all have the same dream about him? And, most importantly, who is Squall? Who were his parents? Why did they leave him at the orphanage? Where does he come from, and what would he have done with his life had he not died?

Today’s understanding of the events of Final Fantasy VIII comprise of a mixed bag. Most people focus on who Ultimecia is, what her motives are, and what happens after her defeat. This has led to the misinterpretation of the evidence and symbolism pointing towards Squall’s death. Some evidence that formerly appeared to be vague and inconclusive now represent clear allusions and references to the subtlety of Final Fantasy VIII’s “obscured” meaning.

In fact, the popular opinion of Final Fantasy VIII falls exactly in line with the nature of the elements of the plot that are consistent within the dream theory, and those that are not. For instance, one of the biggest criticisms of the game is that the “orphanage plot twist” appears to be completely random and come out of nowhere. It appears to be too convenient, for how could all the main characters have possibly grown up together in the same orphanage? The brilliance of the dream theory is that it addresses concerns like these and offers a logical explanation.

In the latter half of disc one, two conversations take place concerning Seifer’s fate and if he will be executed for attacking the president of Galbadia. During these sections of dialogue, Squall muses to himself on the existential qualities of death. "“Will they talk about me this way if I die too? Squall was this and that. Using the past tense, saying whatever they want? So this is what death is all about…”" In this manner Squall considers his own death and what little difference it will make for the world. This serves as foreboding, an ominous suggestion to the viewer that ill times are ahead.

Also note this excerpt from the first conversation concerning Seifer’s possible execution:

‘(Think what you want…Reality isn't so kind. Everything doesn't work out the way you want it to. That's why…) "As long as you don't get your hopes up, you can take anything… You feel less pain. Anyway, whatever wish you have is none of my business."’

Here Squall states the obvious: Shit happens. People die, and there’s nothing you can do about it. That’s just the way the world is. "“Everything doesn’t work out the way you want it to.”" Not only is this foreshadowing, but it’s also contrary to what some consider a central theme to Final Fantasy VIII’s story: fate. (We’ll come back to this point later.)

The attempted assassination of Edea by SeeD at Deling City at the end of Disc 1 is where everything starts (and ends). Squall engages Edea and Seifer in battle on the parade float. After the battle ends, Edea casts a spell on him.

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After the encounter between Squall and Edea, Squall wakes up in a cell in the Galbadian desert prison. His first dialogue is:

‘(…Where am I? I…challenged Edea… My wound…? No wound…? How…? The Galbadian soldiers… …We were surrounded. He was there… Seifer, leering down at me.) "Damn you, Seifer!"’

Apparently Squall’s healthy and good-to-go. It is never again referenced directly in the entire game, nor is it ever explained what happened to his wound or how he survived. And remember, a piece of ice half as long as Squall himself went through his chest and came out the other side. This is no mere scratch that is so carelessly tossed aside. Most players seem to assume that Edea healed Squall to full health for the purpose of interrogation, but why would she? Seifer knows that Squall is no great captain from Balamb Garden. He’s no more privy to top secret information than are the other three. If Edea wanted to know more about SeeD, she should be interrogating Quistis, who’s been a SeeD for three years and who has been teaching SeeDs for one year. Squall has been a SeeD for all of two weeks. Why go through all the effort of killing him just to bring him to full health when he’s obviously a threat to her?

As some of you may have noticed, the plot takes a few unanticipated turns after the end of disc one. At first the transition is rather subtle. When plot twists are introduced, they are fully explained and are not in conflict with existing plot information. In fact, the more you learn about this world, the more everything seems to make perfect sense. Everything fits together in an elaborate but perfectly designed puzzle. Everything connects and everything is related. And yet it still seems absolutely ridiculous.

The story takes on a dream-like quality that centers itself on Squall and everything Squall has ever wanted. The dream goes on to explain everything Squall wanted to know, but it also treads through the realm of egoist fantasy. It spins off into a world of impossible where monsters come from the moon and Squall, merely a newly recruited cadet, goes on to save our world as we know it from an evil sorceress from the future. And he gets the girl. Let’s look at some specific examples.

a. One word: MOOMBAS.

As soon as I saw those red lion Pokémons running around on the screen, I knew there was something strange happening.

The first disc had a fairly high level of realism despite the fantasy and low sci-fi topics present. The characters were all human, and outside of “monsters” there were no unearthly creatures to be seen. Rinoa had a dog that attacks for her at times, as earthly dogs are known to do. But there weren’t any fluffy feline creatures running around yelling “Laguna! Laguna!”

Of course, Moombas are explained within the context of the game. In the Shumi Village you can learn who the Moombas are, who they evolve from, and so on and so forth. The game takes the plot developments of the dream very seriously and treats them all as truth, which makes the dream theory especially difficult to argue. Sure, all this stuff seems weird, but how do we know that it’s all intended to be a dream? Maybe the creators just thought it’d be cool to have talking cats around! And who knows, maybe they did. But I think it’s more than convenient that the more fantastical elements, such as talking lions, do not appear in the game until after the moment where Squall may have died.

It should also be noted that Moombas, these benevolent creatures that try to help Squall and his friends escape despite their limited verbal communication, are literally lions. And lions, of course, are of particular importance to Squall whose symbol is a lion named Griever. The moombas and the Griever’s appearance in the final battle with Ultimecia can therefore be explained as manifestations of Squall’s mind.

b. "Fushururu…3-SECONDS-ARE-UP"

Okay, we already covered the Moombas and the Shumi, but I still wanted to say:

Wtf?! The Master of Garden is a giant yellow sloth alien creature? You gotta be kidding me!!

I dunno about you guys, but this is typical dream material in my opinion. Of course, NORG and his kind are fully explained in the game if you take the time to seek the information they present, but there are no hints presented in the story to suggest this sort of twist was coming. When walking around the Garden in the beginning of the game, you often see the cult-looking guys in red robes wandering about and sometimes conversing with you briefly. I more than once thought they looked a bit creepy though, and I can easily imagine that Squall would have thought the same and integrated their possible backstory into his dream.

Not only is there no evidence leading up to this discovery, after Squall and Friends kill NORG, that’s it. Nothing happens. Squall speaks to Cid, but he doesn’t even talk about it. I expected him at least to say, “Oh, by the way Cid, I just killed that big slimy dude that was hanging around in the basement yelling orders and acting all powerful and stuff. Hope that’s no prob’.” There’s no retaliation, no consequences, nothing. The story goes on as if NORG had never come into it.

Also in the NORG section, another little twist comes to the surface. Cid and Edea are married! It’s another typical twist; the only important older male character and the only important older female character are married and have a backstory that goes back decades. And, like NORG, it comes completely out of left-field. The twist does not conflict with existing story information, yet it seems so out-of-place and unrealistic.

I’m not even going to bother discussing the floating Garden. You guys get the point.

c. "Perhaps it’s fate."

And we’re back to the fate question. What I wanted to point out on the subject of fate and destiny and all that hullabaloo is simply this: the subject of fate does not come up until after the end of disc one. The word “fate” comes up only once on the first disc. When Squall and Friends get the last train for Deling City moments before it disembarks, Irvine comments on the luck by saying, "Hmm… Perhaps it's fate?" After the first disc of the game, however, fate becomes a frequent subject of conversation. It’s SeeD’s destiny to defeat the Sorceress; it’s Squall’s fate to lead Garden; Squall’s destined to face Seifer, etc.

Fate becomes such a prevalent topic that many players come away feeling that fate was one of the most important elements of the Final Fantasy VIII story and the answer to all questions. Fate is the reason why this lowly cadet instantaneously becomes the leader of Garden. Fate is the reason why everyone in your party apparently knew each other as children. Fate is the reason why everything falls into place like a perfect fantasy.

d. "Just stay close to me."

Speaking of a perfect fantasy, the romantic storyline of Final Fantasy VIII is just that. The romantic plotline, which many fans consider to the most successful element of the game, is completely fabricated for Squall’s personal satisfaction. Not only does Rinoa show little appreciation for Squall through disc one, but there are many allusions to her on-going relationship with Seifer. Their relationship appears to have been on a sort of hiatus while Seifer was studying at the Balamb Garden, but their affection and romantic connection is still in place when this story occurs.

In the ballroom scene, Rinoa flirts with Squall casually, but appears to take no actual interest in him as an individual. She tells him honestly, as she drags him out to dance, that she’s waiting for someone else.

Squall: “…I can't dance.”
Rinoa: “You'll be fine. Come on. I'm looking for someone. I can't be on the dance floor alone.”

After a quick dance and a swoon from the female fans, Rinoa wordlessly brushes him off and leaves to find Seifer. Her abruptness suggests that her real interest lies elsewhere. The next time Squall sees Rinoa, it’s in Timber. Rinoa is overjoyed to see him, but only because he’s a member of SeeD.

Rinoa: "Hey… You're…! You know, from the party… So…does that mean… You're a SeeD!?"
Squall: "I'm Squall, the squad leader. There's two others with me."
Rinoa: "YEEESSSS! SeeD is here!"

Here we also learn that Rinoa knows Seifer, from the party and from before. Her demeanor suggests a fondness for him that she does not openly let on.

Squall: "Oh… So you were looking for the headmaster at the party?"
Rinoa: "You know Seifer?"
Squall: "…Yeah."
Rinoa: "Well, he's the one who introduced me to Cid. Cid is such a nice man. I really didn't think SeeD would come out to help a measly little group like us. But after explaining our situation to him, Cid gave the go ahead right away! Now that you guys are here, we'll be able to carry out all kinds of plans!"
……
Squall: "I'm goin' back to the others."
Rinoa: "Ok, let's go! Umm, Squall. Is 'he' here?"
Squall: ('He'?)
Rinoa: "Seifer."
Squall: "…… No, he's not a SeeD."

After the events at Timber, when the party discusses Seifer’s execution, Rinoa speaks more openly on her relationship with Seifer.

Rinoa: "I…really liked him. He was always full of confidence, smart… Just by talking to him, I felt like I could take on the world."
Selphie: "Your boyfriend?"
Rinoa: "I don't really know. I… I think it was love. I wonder how he felt…?"
Selphie: "Do you still like him?"
Rinoa: "If I didn't, I wouldn't be talking about it. It was last summer… I was 16. Lots of fond memories…"

...

Firstly, Rinoa is obviously quite taken with Seifer, and though she doesn’t classify herself as his girlfriend, she admits she thinks it may be love. This is not a good beginning to a love story for Squall and Rinoa. Secondly, Rinoa appears to fully dislike Squall’s cold and introverted personality. She calls him mean, callous, insensitive, and chastises him for not communicating his thoughts to her and the others in the party.

Rinoa does not show Squall the least bit of affection until the end of disc one when Squall and Irvine save her from some strange iguana creatures. In this scene, she clutches Squall’s arm shamelessly in her traumatized state.

Rinoa: "I was scared…" [Rinoa clings to his arm.] "…Really scared."
Squall: "It's over now."
Rinoa: "I was scared… I was really, really scared."
Squall: "You're used to battles, aren't you?"
Rinoa: "I couldn't…I just couldn't. I couldn't fight alone…"
Squall: (…You're not ready for all this.) "Better get going." [Rinoa clings to his arm again after he bats it away.] "I haven't forgotten your order. Just stay close to me."

A few moments later, at the sniper position, Squall considers the possibility that he may have to fight Seifer as an enemy. He mentions the possibility to Rinoa, who obviously may be heavily affected by Squall trying to kill her romantic interest.

Squall: "Rinoa. Seifer's alive. He was in the parade with the sorceress."
Rinoa: "…What does it mean?"
Squall: "Who knows." (If I were to face the sorceress directly… Would I have to go through Seifer? …That's the way it goes as a SeeD. You can't choose your enemies…) "I may end up killing Seifer."
Rinoa: "You're both…prepared, right? That's the kind of world you live in. You've had a lot of emotional training. But… Of course, I'd rather it not happen…"

that's gay user

Rinoa appears to accept that if Seifer is protecting the Sorceress, it is necessary to dispose of him.

I think it’s important to note that at this point in the game, at the end of disc one, Squall is aware of Rinoa’s relationship with Seifer and does not seem threatened by it. Furthermore, Squall does not want to kill Seifer. Squall and Seifer have a history of quarrels and petty competition, but Seifer is still a comrade. In the final exam in Balamb, Squall and Zell worked together with Seifer despite their differences. The only reason to kill Seifer is his apparent alignment with the Sorceress, which is never fully explained.

After disc one, the complexity of this situation becomes much simpler. The relationship Rinoa and Seifer had is never again mentioned, except by Seifer in the form of taunts during battle. Rinoa herself seems to have completely distanced herself from Seifer, and Seifer’s enemy status is never again questioned. Seifer began as a rather complex character, an enemy at times to Squall and Zell but still a friend in battle. He broke out of the Garden’s disciplinary wing to risk his life for Rinoa, who found his courage inspiring. After disc one he is a villain and his only goal appears to be serving the Sorceress. I personally expected Seifer to have been brain-washed or mind-controlled, and I spent a majority of the game waiting for Seifer to “snap out of it” and join Squall’s team, but he never does. The story just accepts that Seifer is now evil and must be killed. It’s so simple and, well, convenient.

Seifer, who was Squall’s personal tormenter and rival in school, has become a major villain to the world and all of his friends. And since Seifer is out of the way, his would-be girlfriend–Rinoa–is now single and apparently falling for Squall though she never took an interest in him before.

At the very end of the game, just as you’re beating the final boss, Ultimecia, she starts to say some strange things, statements that appear very out-of-context for a final battle.

"Reflect on your… Childhood…"
"Your sensation… Your words… Your emotions…"
"Time… It will not wait…"
"No matter… …how hard you hold on. It escapes you…"

When I read those words, a chill ran up my spine. With every attack, you bring down Ultimecia’s hit points, and you bring Squall’s dream to a close. Squall, oblivious, fights on, and only this figment of his imagination seems aware of what is happening.

There is a short story segment here involving Squall going back in time to the orphanage and seeing Ultimecia pass on her powers to Edea in the past. Then Squall leaves in search of his “own time”, and is shown wandering in a desert place. He appears to be “lost in time” and unable to find his way back his normal time period.

Squall finds himself on a small rock island, isolated and helpless. He drops himself on the ground, exhausted. Then, upon catching a feather floating towards him, he finds himself where Rinoa is. He calls out her name, and she turns to face him. This is where the weird shit starts happening.

Rinoa turns to Squall, but her face is blurred. There’s a shot of Seifer as the movie cuts to the ballroom scene. Here we see Rinoa again, and again she turns towards the camera as she did in the ballroom scene on disc one. But she’s blurry and messed up again. The shot continues to repeat, and every time Rinoa’s face and form are blurred, and the effect seems to be getting worse each time. What is happening here?

It is my belief that as Squall’s dream is coming to a close, he is starting to lose touch with his own memories. He is trying to picture Rinoa, the object of his fantasy, but he can’t quite remember the shape of her face. He is going over that moment in the ballroom, when he first saw her, again and again in his mind, focusing closer on her face and trying to see her the way that she was.

I have seen this specific visual symbolism once before, in Eternal Sunshine on the Spotless Mind. In Eternal Sunshine, the protagonist, Joel, has his memory erased because he wants to forget his ex-girlfriend. But, in the course of the procedure, Joel realizes what he is losing and tries to hold on to his precious memories. He tries to remember the things they have already erased, just to find the characters in his memory are faceless, blurred beyond recognition.

As Squall is visualizing Rinoa in the ballroom, we start to see some quick shots interrupting the movie. The first one, as I already mentioned, was of Seifer. What is noteworthy about the shot of Seifer is that it shows him in the torchlight from the parade float where Edea tried to kill Squall with an ice spell.

...

Then some quick shots of Rinoa appear. These are as blurred as the Rinoa from the ballroom scene, but these images of Rinoa come from the scene where Edea makes her speech before the parade. Rinoa, who appears to be under Edea’s spell, follows the Sorceress out see the screaming crowd.

This frame was taken directly from the scene in which Squall was killed. Rinoa is turning to Squall, who has just been impaled.

We see some shots of the Balamb communications tower, the Ragnarok, and there’s a clip of Rinoa, still blurred, with her hair in the wind. A shot of Seifer pushing Rinoa into Adel goes by, then we see more of the Balamb tower, and a clip of Rinoa reaching to Squall from the parade float.
(TL note: This shit is fucking retarded)

There’s an explosion, and we see the arch from Deling City under which Squall died. The camera takes us through the arch and we’re back in the ballroom for more blurred face action. There are a lot of images in this section, including Edea from the parade float, Ultimecia, Rinoa in space, the eyes from all the cast members fading into each other, and probably a lot more than that. There’s also a frame from the last moment in disc one, the image of Squall’s eye as he falls from the parade float.

A shot from the ending where different scenes blend together. An eye is seen superimposed over the ballroom dance.

At this point in the movie, and for the last few minutes as well, Squall’s life has literally been flashing before his eyes. I feel that there is a particular focus on the two main events of disc one: the final exam at Balamb and the encounter with Edea on the parade float. But of course the ballroom scene, which was of particular importance to Squall, is by far the most covered event in the first half of the ending fmv. However, as I’ve been mentioning throughout this section, there are also snippets of images from the latter half of the game, particularly Rinoa in space.

At the very end of this part of the ending movie, we see Rinoa coming towards the camera, arms open for embrace. As before, the closer she gets, the more obscured she becomes. Then we see our first shot of Squall.

Squall's head is displayed, but instead of his face he has only a gaping black hole to fill in his features.

This shot keeps me up at night. Seriously.

So far, the best analysis I have this for this screenshot is that Squall feels empty, that he losing his sense of self and everything that comes with it. He’s having trouble visualizing his memories, or even remembering reality from fiction. Think back to what Ultimecia said, at the end of the last battle. ""Reflect on your… Childhood… Your sensation… Your words… Your emotions… Time… It will not wait… No matter… …how hard you hold on. It escapes you…"" His life is fading from him. You can’t hold on forever.

Or they just wanted to give me nightmares.

There is one last shot of Rinoa, floating in space. The glass on her space helmet cracks and sends large pointed shards towards the camera. There is a sound, like someone being struck by a sword. We cut to Squall, eyes wide, a tear escaping him. He throws back his head and is consumed by white.

Here's a video of the ending up to this point:

And now, finally, Squall is dead. We see a white feather fall to the ground, and the screen fades to black. The last ten minutes of the FFVIII ending movie are, in the simplest terms, of “heaven”, or some equivalent thereof.

That horrible ‘Eyes on Me’ song boots up, and we see Rinoa wandering around. She finds Squall, and holds him, apparently thinking he’s dead. The clouds whirl open so the sun can shine through, pink flower petals swirl in the wind across a gorgeous green grassy plain, and Rinoa looks back to Squall with a look of amazement. Those pink petals turn to white feathers on the wind, and the movie cuts to Balamb.

At the Balamb port we see Seifer, Fujin and Raijin fishing in the same gorgeous sunny weather that Squall and Rinoa were experiencing. Fujin kicks Raijin into the bright blue water, and Seifer cracks up laughing like a schoolboy. Seifer, who I thought we had finally defeated for the last time, looks up and smiles as Balamb Garden sails by overhead.

The movie cuts to Laguna, who’s standing out at Raine’s grave. We get to see Laguna propose to Raine in the past, and they embrace. Laguna in the present sees Ellone coming back to see him, and they look up as the Balamb Garden goes over them as well.

During the credits they show a home video-type clip where all the characters get to act like complete retards. All the party members are there celebrating but Squall and Rinoa, and even Cid and Edea are in attendance. Irvine dances like a goon, Selphie bounces around like an airhead, and Zell stuffs his face with hotdogs. Yay.

After the final credits we get to see the stuff that makes the fangirls go wild. Rinoa stands out on the Garden’s balcony with Squall under a starry night sky. S

...

If this was really how the game was meant to be interpreted, why did they make the “dream” so subtle? I can think of fifty ways to make it more apparent to the audience that the events taking place after disc one are not real. So, if the creators meant for Squall to die, they also meant for his death to be obscured and subtle. We view the dream as if we are the dreamers, and even though sometimes events take place that could never, ever happen in the “real” world, we do not become aware that it is a dream.

A similar plot can be seen in the film Vanilla Sky (just fyi, if you haven’t seen it, don’t read on; spoilers etc) in which Tom Cruise plays a character who chooses to have himself put to sleep. At a certain point in the movie, he begins dreaming, and the entire remainder of the film is a fabrication of his mind. At first there is little indication that anything is amiss. The plot continues as though nothing is different, except of course that everything starts to go his way.

After a while, though, things start to get a little crazy, and he ends up awaiting the death penalty for beating his girlfriend to death during sex while experiencing what appeared to be a delusion. And all the while the audience watches on in confusion, as unaware as the character that this is all just a dream. Now, the problem I had with Vanilla Sky was that they couldn’t just leave it alone. I think it would have been a really cool movie if they had left it up to us to discern what had really happened. Instead we, the audience, received a full exposition dump in the final moments of the film as a character carefully explains to the protagonist, and the audience, that the whole movie was really just a dream.

Maybe the only real difference between Final Fantasy VIII and Vanilla Sky is: they just never told us what really happened. In Final Fantasy VIII, they let us live in the dream as Squall did and we never know the difference.

The truth is, I don’t think there is a substantial amount of evidence to conclude whether or not the writers intended for the audience to interpret the game in this fashion. I choose to believe that this is how the game was intended to be understood because, to me, the game makes no sense otherwise. Everything that happens to the characters after the first disc is ridiculous. The ending is like recapping the game on acid. There has to be something more to the story than a simple ‘Hero Takes All’ plot.

Sometimes, while writing this article, I really felt that this is the real story of Final Fantasy VIII. But sometimes it all just sounds like poppycock to me. In any case, I think Squall's Dead is an interesting theory, worth considering at least, and I hope you think so too.

Thanks for reading, & let us know what you think in the comments below!

tl;dr OP is a faggot

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I don't like those 3d futanari porn vids. They are weird.

Fucking spoilers dude

aerisdies.com

That would be hot if it were remotely believable

The ones from futanaria.com or whatever are total garbage, I agree. But there are other sites that have better quality, more realistic stuff.

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Is this the new 1fox2babies?

Why is Bayonetta 2 in Final Fantasy

That's a girl from a strapless strapon promo-porno.

Did Squall die and dream the rest of the Final Fantasy series? Because it does look like a universe that's succumbing to entropy.

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Nah, I think Final Fantasy VIII just had a shit story.
I think if they wanted it be taken this way they would have made it more obvious, maybe a big reveal half way through the game when he starts questioning thins, and Squall's entire perspective is shattered, he abandons all of the other characters and the retarded plot, and he just goes and deals with his life up to the point before he died.

This theory makes FFVIII a better game than it is. It's incredibly hard to believe that Squaresoft had writing talent enough to pull this off intentionally and through localization, because everything else about the game's story is on par with other Final Fantasy titles, that is, piss poor.

I only played the game through once as a kid spamming GFs like no tomorrow(and my english was piss poor back then), but I remember reading here that Squall and co. were trapped in a time loop? Time kompression, or something?

The Squall's Dead theory is almost as old as the game itself, and it's the only version of the story that actually makes any sense and is at all interesting, so I'm okay with it.
The game's still shit, no matter what you pretend the story means, though. The only reason to play FF8 will always be Triple Triad.

Instead of putting all this time and effort into theorising what actually happenedi n the game, ask yourself this basic. Fucking. Question.

What is the point of it being a goddamn dream!?

Does it make the dream parts anything other than a colossal waste of time?!

Does it make it a better story overall or are you just wanking off to yourselves while trying to act smart?!

Fuck these sorts of theorists, honestly.

You didn't read the autism dump, I guess. It makes the story actually make sense with all the other bullshit that happens, otherwise it's a lolrandom adventure that has a very confusing ending.

what is hell's name is this autism?

If that works for you, then great. But from my POV, then without the theory, the game is like:
With the theory:
How is the former more satisfying to you?

I think you mean the latter. And it's more satisfying in that it's actually a huge twist in and of itself because we aren't really sure if Squall's dead or not and we think he's alive up until the end. The idea that everything you did was Squall's Final Fantasy is a neat concept that actually makes sense, unlike the other shitty "X was dead all along!" Theories.

I did, whups. I don't like dream twists all that much, but hey, I guess some people do and that's cool

It's lazy. A game it better applies to would be FF10, where Tidus does have a visible, obvious death (Zanarkand being attacked by Sin), tons of times being told he's a dream, but nobody suggests, hey, wait, maybe Spira was the Dream, not Titus.

I like how this board is increasingly becoming Holla Forums - Final Fantasy. Beats "overwatch general 50"

You are giving the Nips waaaaaay too much credit. They couldn't write a good story to save their fucking lives, much much MUCH less in a JRPG. You will never find a bigger group of soulless automatons. They have no emotions and no reason for creativity.

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Counterpoint: the chinese.

FF8 is a terrible game, the story doesn't make sense because of such, not because it' 2 DEEP 4 U.

Fuck off.

no

This is the biggest point against the whole Squall is dead thing. Square was never that subtle, they wanted the reveal to be that Squall is dead then they would have out right stated it at some point. Just like they did just a few years later with FFX.

Edea is fighting Ultimecia for control of her body. It apparently takes a lot of strain on Ultimecia's part to maintain the connection and right before she ice strike's Squall the party had just beat the shit out of her.
So Ultimecia gets her ass beat, does her limit break and impales Squall, looses control, and now Edea back temporarily in control of her own body heals Squall. Then either Ultimecia regains control and orders the party captured or Seifer and the Galbadia military takes initiative on their own while she semi incapacitated. Remember there's a whole section of the game where Seifer seems to more in control of events than the Sorceress.
I'm pretty sure the game states that out right. It's been a while since I played it so I don't remember exactly.

FF8 is still the best FF game

Don't type with the numpad, you missed the 5.

Nigger it's final fantasy people survive meteors being dropped on them and getting chopped with 10 foot long swords
You're actually retarded if you thing a Blizzara spell would kill Squall

Actually it's Edea's limit break but same deal.

But they don't.

No. Squall dies more than likely, but we're talking decades after Final Fantasy VIII ends. All the radiation from magic and shit probably greatly shortens the lives of all SeeDs. But this is a game about fucking magic, you think that Squall being hit by a magical ice block is going to actually just kill the character? It's not real! The whole point of magic in Final Fantasy games is that the damage done is a form of shock or paradox, and not actual physical damage. Case in point, you shoot, stab, slash and cast magic spells of your own on EVERYTHING in that fucking game, you summon Guardian Forces who destroy the fucking arena… AND YET IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAPPEN, instead it damages their psyche.

None of it is real, the only actual moment of violence in Final Fantasy VIII is Squall and Seifer giving each other their scars with their gunblades.

Aeris wasn't in the party, thus couldn't be targeted by Phoenix downs. Basic shit.

The reason Aerith can't be revived is because it's a narrative death. Just like General Leo in Final Fantasy VI dies, and Tina can't revive him even though she revives every other character in the area with her magic. The story telling trumps the rules of the game, this is not something new to roleplaying games, this has been the case in shit for a long time. In Dungeons & Dragons the villain kills the King, and it's supposed to be a shocker moment. According to the rules, you could just cast true resurrection and undo that entire moment and thus foil the villain's actions, and then there's no reason to go on a grand adventure other than to make the villain pay the bill for resurrection ingredients… BUT THE DM DOESN'T LET YOU JUST CAST TRUE RESURRECTION BECAUSE OF THE SIMPLE FACT that it's not meant to be a panacea. If you could just cast resurrection and raise dead til the cows come home and revive everyone killed ever, it would render death a moot point. Death is a storytelling device, and Aerith died to progress the story, because she HAD TO DIE to become part of the lifestream in order to prevent Meteor from destroying the planet.

No, its a retarded theory with no actual evidence backing it up as Squall was struck in the shoulder, the slash to his face in the opening FMV likely did more long lasting damage then the ice lance did. The only thing that would support the theory is things you could do both before and after the attack were any different (such as Cids Lamp where you get Diablos). The entire point of the game is a self repeating cycle and Squalls groups role in playing it out.

I mean you have the Ultimecia = Rinoa theory being completely plausible and heavily teased, at least that one is interesting/not completely retarded. Dissidia Ultimecia even uses the same weapons as Rinoa, although its probably more developers fucking with people for the fun of it.

BUT THAT'S JUST A whatever

Also it's because of what I said that Irvine, a guy who has killed THOUSANDS of troopers with his sniper rifle, suddenly has trouble to shoot the Sorceress. It's not out of some love for Edea, it's not because he feels bad for killing a woman or some other shit… It's because that is an actual moment of violence that he's about to do. He doesn't want to shoot her because he'll ACTUALLY be PHYSICALLY RESPONSIBLE for someone's death. This is a case where the storytelling shows us that actual violent actions have a lasting affect on the characters, whereas most attacks are a form of magical shock that just harms the brain.

Vital organs being struck, phoenix downs are closer to smelling salts then actual revival. After Tifa was attacked on Mt Nibel her master who found her attempted to save her with cure magic but it didn't really help, she needed legitimate medical attention. Magic is useful but it can't solve all your problems, like Barrets dead arm, magic can't cure nerve damage. Only thing in universe that could possible work is some kind of time reversal magic which doesn't exist in VII universe/if it did it would be absurdly powerful and hard to use. Stopping/slowing/speeding up is rational I guess but reversal is a whole other deal.

Yeah its mostly for story narrative purposes but my point is that it does make sense in world.

FF medical professionals should subclass in Time Mage and use Slow/Stop to prevent people from bleeding out.

Indeed. It's just like the defibrillators in Battlefield games. Their function in gameplay is greatly exaggerated from the canon.

you know whats dead OP?

your chances of finding a girlfriend

Sephiroth's sword isn't ten feet long
It's eleven

No, he isn't. Is it that hard to understand FFVIII's plot?

Are you sure it's not 15 feet long?

11 is an edgy number, as it can be found next to nine.
A more likely number for sephiroth

...

Phoenix downs dont even cure death.
The "why didnt they just use x item/spell to bring back y character?" thing is honestly the dumbest thing in the final fantasy fanbase .
Because none of those fucking things cure death, they cure KO.

Even in FF6, where they get the whole fucking Phoenix and not just a feather, the Phoenix only has enough power bring somebody back from the dead for a few seconds, then they die again.

Then why do they insta-kill undead?

Skeletons are well known for their feather allergies

...

"Dead" is a status effect in FFT, which Phoenix Down cures.

It's because edgy people want to be number 1, and eleven has twice as many ones.

We were reacting because he said 11, and got an 11 get (dubs). The coincidence is pretty amazing.

FFT is the one FF game where actually dying is a distinct game mechanic seperate from KO.

Yeah, and in the instance of FFT if you let a character die in the battle they remain fucking dead after it. Tactics is a shit game anyways, fuck off.

I'm not sure if Squall is technically dead, but he is in hell. He got sent to a space outside of time and because a large part of the game is that Ultimicia's death is what creates Edea; Squall is most likely trapped there forever. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an entire space full of Squalls who got trapped there due to the cycle.

...

It does make more sense since the release of FFX, where the MC never existed in the first place. Tidus was a dream that was based on some terrorist from before the fall of Zanarkand. X-2 kinda shits on this, but the Fayth just decided to keep the dream going for a little bit longer as thanks. Tidus still doesn't really exist and I'm curious if he'll ever age. The person that Tidus is based on never grew old, so the Fayth have nothing to pull from. I'd say it's more likely that Yuna will grow old and die, while Tidus stays the same age. They can't even have children as Tidus isn't real and the Fayth are only going to keep him going for Yuna.

TERRORISTS USING EXPLODING BLITZBALLS
I still have a good chuckle when I remember they actually made that cannon with the book they wrote.

Things get more retarded after the first disc because of ultimecia and the sorceresses throughout time fucking up reality, imposing their obsession with knights and castles and romantic ideals onto an otherwise ultramodern setting. If squall dies he's brought back to be the cecil to seifer's kain. Don't need to think about it too hard.

Anyway, unless the creators kept notes while they were writing the game and those are dug up someday, we'll never know for sure. "Word of God" on the theory, if they ever bothered to give it, is unreliable as hardcore substance abuse started to proliferate throughout the company around that time. All they'd remember is a hazy blackout period in their lives anyway. Need proof? Square's business decisions following this time period.

feathers tickle their funny bone for crit damage

You don't know that for a fact. Magic is as magic does, man. You can't just quantify fucking magic down to "what I say is X, thus Y." The whole point of magic is that it defies the laws of natural order.

It's way too good for SE to have come up with. However, they have been pretty big on death in past games. There are lots of examples:

Kefka destroys the World
Aeris' death
Tidus and the dream of the fayth
Noctis' sacrifice
The destruction of Zidan's world
I never finished 13, but I think they all died with Lightning being the sole survivor in France.

Squall's death would fit in.

The world is ending in 6-13 days, depending on your actions, and everybody will die. You have that amount of time to try to "save" every soul in the world by eliminating the regrets of people who have them, and slaying everyone/everything else and sucking their souls into your god battery. Only Lightning can freely pass into the new world, everybody else has to die to make that transition.

Also, after the events of 13-2, which I will never play, time stopped flowing properly and people stopped being able to have babies, or age. So for 500 years everybody has been effectively immortal: kids remain kids, adults never get older, the old never die of old age and so on, but gradually over that time the world is also dissolving into nothingness slowly.

So it's a pretty dark storyline with some interesting concepts, but it's delivered like absolute shit and the characters are all trash. Thank fuck for that gameplay, though.

He got hit right in his left lung with a massive ice spear that sent him flying. I don't think SE is creative enough to have come up with the theory on their own, but I do feel that they know of it. That is, SE has used bits and parts of it in later games.

They can't have children as the fayth are the only thing keeping Tidus around and they only decided to keep dreaming for Yuna as thanks. They know she won't live forever, so it won't be much longer before they can rest in peace. If she would somehow carry a child by Tidus, it would have to be dreamed into existance by the fayth and it would disappear as soon as they called it quits.

No, he didn't die, the story is just complete shit. If that really was the case, the game would have made an effort to actually say this. It serves no purposes keeping that a secret and ambiguous. The story is just shit.

I wish I could mention all the other characters who sacrificed themselves, the only thing is, they all come back later like "HEY, WE'RE NOT DEAD!" with no explanation pants on head retarded, basically nullifying any emotional impact their deaths could have had in the story…

Don't forget Locke's lovely corpse bride.

That's Rachael.

The girl Locke trapped forever between life and death to use as his personal cumdump. I wonder if she actually has body heat.

Final Fantasy X-2. PlayStation 2. Square Enix U.S.A. Tidus: I got a theory. I think the fayth gathered up my thoughts and put 'em together to bring me back. […] Or maybe I'm still a dream. / Yuna: Wait! So you'll disappear? / Tidus: Cherish me, Yuna. And I'll cherish you. […] / Yuna: Is that what the fayth told you? / Tidus: Nah, but I like it. [Yuna playfully pushes Tidus into a pond] Tidus: That's not cherishing! / Yuna: You didn't disappear.

According to pretty much everyone, this is ambiguous. Which it is. Your head canon doesn't mean that's what the writers decided. They could have expended their spirit energy to resurrect him as a real boy all Pinochio and shit. It's up to you to decide what it means to YOU, but that doesn't make you the final arbiter of choice.

Just like the canon ending of Dark Souls is up to you. There are people who have a theory that the dead king in Dark Souls II is the player from Dark Souls. There's nothing which says to these people that they're right or wrong, other than the fact that the king is very powerful (he can kill you in one swing of his sword), and he bears the dark sign. It's not until Dark Souls III that people were satisfied with a decidedly "canon" ending to Dark 1 being set by Soul of Cinder because he wears the same armor as the player on the game box of Dark Souls. BUT that doesn't mean that it's the player character. They also like to say that "Dark Souls II is not canon" even though it is, and your stupid "muh A-team" and "muh B-team" crap doesn't hold water when you consider that A team worked on 3 and it wasn't all that different from 2 rather than being a rehash of Demon's Souls and 1. In the trailers for Dark Souls II we saw the Dark Souls knight joined by the Dark Souls II knight that they used in all the trailers, so it leaves it ambiguous as to what it all means. Once again, it's open to player interpretation.

Tidus doesn't disappear, even though he thinks he will. Tidus wasn't just a figment of imagination, they summoned PYREFLIES from the far plane to bring him back. Why would a figment of imagination have pyreflies? Likewise, when Tidus comes back, imagined Zanarkand does not.

Your theory is just your own stupid game theory, go make fucking stupid ass videos on it if you want to, but unless Square themselves makes some official statement on the matter, it's open to interpretation and there is no right answer.

Faggot. Check my fucking dubs.

Wrong, according to the audio novels, it's not the "same" summoned Tidus. The post FFX-2 one is one created exclusively by Yuna's memories and desires, and will dissipate if it realizes it isn't the "real one."

I'm a hardcore fan with FF8, so many times I would even try to escape reality with lucid dreaming, I would be in Balamb Garden where I would often train with Zell in the training center and help Selphie with the Garden Festival, but one day as I was talking to Selphie, we went to my dormitory for a private talk. She immediately said, "You know you could live with us here forever.." I gave her a confused look and she continued, "We understand that you live on earth and you REALLY wish to live here". I then said "How..How did you know?" She then giggled and said "Because we've been watching you, silly!"

This was a dream come true and I almost cried right there. She then said, "I talked with Headmaster Cid and he agreed that you would be PERFECT for SeeD, you just have to do…one thing". She then held my hand and looked deep into my eyes and said "…You have to kill yourself for the transfer to work correctly." I then gave her some questions, "How long do I have before the deal expires?" She then said "Cid said 3 months.." I added by saying "What's the most painless way?…" She giggled again, "Suicide will require pain buuut….if you want it quick….Get a gun and a nice shot to the head works.

I then agreed and she gave me a kiss on the forehead, "I know this will be tough but once it's over and done, you'll get to live here!" I then woke up and this was last week and i purchased a gun. I might actually kill myself because that dream just felt too real to be fake and my life isn't doing so grand.

That some fucked up shit. It reminds of the book Misery, except Yuna doesn't need to break Tidus' legs to keep him from running away.

Everything is made of pyreflies in ffx. All Sin is is a large gathering of Pyreflies that Yu Yuvon keeps summoning, because that's all he remembers to do. A large part of ffx was that the time of Zanarkand and a war of Summoners had long since been over. High summoning at that point was fucked and the strongest summoner had long since lost his mind. By the time Tidus shows up in Spira, the fayth were already sick and tired of dreaming and wanted to rest in peace.

Classic every fucking time I see it.

Not only that he got 11, next to 99.

No. It's just that final fantasy writing is shit.

phoenix downs are a thing. this theory was always retarded.

Could you base a game around how immoral phoenix downs are and have some pet sematary tweest where resurrected people aren't what they seem?

...

No that's too clever for squeenix.

The typical argument is that ff8 disc1 is too realistic (LOL) and it gets further into fantasy after you supposedly die and the rest of the game is what squall wanted as your life flashes between your eyes for the rest of the game.

There has never been anything to back up the dream claim other than people who literally don't understand the basic story of the game and who's related to who and why anything is happening. So they make up the squall is dead shit to explain what's already explained.

Really it's actually as typical a story as other final fantasy game. You kill the sorceress and save the princess. People trying to apply realistic standards and logic to a fucking final fantasy game lmao.

Fuck you for posting this pasta you stupid little fuck. Brainless fucking shit head who ever made this or references it.

Pawn being controlled by a fucking interdimensional time lord looking for a host. Wasn't always a host. Previous host was Ultmecia who was once Esthers leader. Edea was just a time mage who ran an orphanage.
Because he wasn't killed obviously it was a lie. Damn that was a toughie!
Anyone who played the game would understand this. Ellone is Raines adopted daughter and was Squalls step sister figure. She leaves Squall because she's being hunted to be a host because she's got time powers.
Squalls dad and later president of Esther.
Ellones time power. A weird way to give the player exposition.

You learn all of this playing the game. I'm not saying the game doesn't have plotholes either but it's pretty straight forward even if it's whack.

You mean Adel.

Like Pet Cemetary? It could be done really well. Could you imagine if Jenova had possessed Aeris' corpse after Cloud ressurects her? You could then go down the same path as Pet Cemetary and have her take out Tifa, which will force Cloud to take her out in the end.

Adel was defeated by Laguna and company and then sealed in space to keep her powers from transferring. Ultimicia transferred her powers to Edea, which is shown at the end of the game. The whole game is stuck in a time loop. Ultimicia will eventually return and regain her powers. Squall will also return to defeat her and then get stuck in some hell.

I see ff8's story having been handled the same way as Toriyama is handeling Super. Square was very loose with it and I doubt they planned most of this. A lot of the theories work and are clever in retrospect, but that was because the game was so loose to begin with.

There isn't a single FF with a good story

That's because every FF has their protagonists either die or dead from the beginning. It's a Japanese thing.

What about Cecil? He beat up his loldrg friend, slapped his brother's shit and beat up an ancient evil? He was never sacrificed ala jrpg tropes.

I don't think its so much "over intellectualizing" the game, as it is looking for SOME explanation as to the reason for the utter shitfest that was ff8's story.

I prefer the "dream" idea, purely because otherwise the entire story of the game is utter fucking trash and hands down the worst FF story, not that there are more than a few good FF stories to begin with, but this one takes the cake for shit tier writing/dialogue/story/etc.

The characters arent interesting, they aren't ever developed in any way, the "hero" just has shit fall into his lap constantly and everything plays out more like a bad comic book with the hero automatically getting the girl and the villains all ending up completely hollow in terms of motivation, and my god the entire premise of the ending was more "wtf is this shit?" than necron showing up at the end of 9 out of bumfuck nowhere.

However, if you look at it as a "death dream" the main character is having, it makes it all a bit more surreal and the story a bit more interesting. You're no longer looking at shit tier writing with no character dev etc etc. Instead you're viewing the entire world through the eyes of an introverted, isolated, lonely, cowardly teenage boy who is cold and distant because he thinks it keeps him safe, who shoves away the girl he has an attraction to because "she likes someone else" or "she wont like me" so he distances himself from her to, so he never learned anything more about zell than "whacky and likes hotdogs," and never learned more about selphie than "spazzy hyper girl who gets on my nerves," so no one ever developed as a character because.. well.. what did he know about them? what was there TO develop ON? And of course then you see that he, despite his outward attitude, wants to be accepted and welcomed, wants the girl to like him, wants to be the hero, and how he fantasizes about it all and how in his "ideal way" from that point forward would play it out so that everyone eventually welcomed respected and needed him.

But in the end, at the end of it all, hes still alone, he doesnt lay down next to the girl and close his eyes and fade into the void, he doesnt have a drink at a party and sit down watching all his friends around him carry on while he slowly closes his eyes and fades away… no, none of that. Instead hes alone, in a void all by himself, isolated, lonely, afraid, just like he lived his life, and that is how he died, and he knew that that was the true ending, the world would go on, he would never have any real impact on it, he wouldnt be surrounded by friends and loved ones… no, he'd wander alone in the dark until he couldnt anymore and gave up, sat down, and waited on the end.

I know, thats likely NOT what the story was supposed to be about. But frankly, its at least A story that way. If it were all "real" then its just shit writing. At least if its a "death dream" then theres some sort of context for all the terribleness of the game.

But maybe I just think that because I'm a psych grad and find things like that to be more interesting. Maybe its shit either way.

Context. What happens "in battle" is always assumed to be different from what happens outside of battle. At least in the latter games anyway. Stuff that happens in cutscenes is meant to be "real" while battle is more flash and fanfare.

Thats basic FF stuff right there. Actually its basic for a lot of games really. Hell, consider MGS5, you can do the quiet battle and shoot her in the fucking head with a god damn anti-material rifle during the battle, but she doesnt die and you get the option to "kill her" with a single 9mm round to the chest afterward, if you do so THEN she is consider to actually be dead. Or how about mgs3 you can shoot "the boss" a dozen times in the final fight, doesnt kill her but one gunshot at the end does. Or the trails series of JRPGs, in cold steel 1 you can get shot by lasers, cannons, set on fire, etc, and the characters not even care and just keep going, yet in cutscenes guards show up with guns at times and the party is like "well damn, guess we better surrender." OOOORRRR… do you need me to keep going?

Point is, cutscene outside of battle is generally considered more serious than what goes on "in battle"

umm…

No, it makes the story even more one dimensional than it originally is.
Sucks to be you.

You were doing so well in explaining it, too.

THE GAME IS NOT STUCK IN A TIME LOOP.

Adel was the previous big-shot sorceress that ruled Esthar with an iron fist and put it at war, Laguna tricked her into entering a previously-prepared chamber that contained her powers and sent to space with the Ragnarok. Years later, Edea had sorceress powers but kept quiet about them(not everyone is an OP Sorceress, the past ones you fight prove this, some can only cast Fire). Squall ends near her with Ultimecia dying, the power form Ultimecia jumps into Edea, Squall tells her to make Seed and go back to the temporal rift.

After Edea is defeated the second time, Ultimecia stops possessing her and possesses Rinoa instead. She uses Rinoa to remove the seals that kept Adel back and leaves her to die in space, possessing Adel(to whom the Sorceress' power passed to after Edea) instead.

They Laguna has a stupid plan and everyone uses Rinoa as bait, defeating Adel with brute force to force the power back into her. Ultimecia then controls Rinoa again, and Ellone sends boith Rinoa's and Ultimecia's consciousness as far in the past as she can(which was what Ultimecia wanted to start with: the only reason she's at this point in time is because the machine she's using to send her consciousness back can't go farther than the game's present).

Thus Ultimecia starts doing the time kompression, and Ellone cuts Rinoa's and Ultimecia's conection to the past, slingshotting them both to their respective times. The time kompression couldn't be stopped, but was delayed long enough for them to cross the mindfucked/sciencebabbled landscape, crossing space to cross time or some such. The party is warned they'll disappear if they end in a timeline where they don't exist, so they have to believe in THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP(not kidding)/eachother so they can avoid being deleted from existence.

They finally get into Ultimecia's castle, beat her, Ultimecia uses her powers to animate the concept of "the strongest being that can exist" straight from Squall's mind to create Griever, you beat both of them, they fuse, you beat them again, she transforms one more time just as the time kompression is finishing(at this point everything stopped existing except you and her, and if you get ko'd she can absorb your characters too). When she's defeated for the last time, the time starts to uncompress and everyone gets lost in the rifts of time.

The party ends up thinking of the same place where they wanted to exist together, the orphanage. Two people are missing though: Rinoa since she wasn't form there and Squall, because he really didn't do the whole "power of friendship" thing. They promised to meet in a meadow, but Rinoa is there alone. Cue Squall being erased from existence and losing his memories even as he try to remember Rinoa and she's waiting for him(ending sequence, also the starting one), he doesn't manage to, she uses her Sorceress bullshit powers to first give him a second wind, and then to leave breadcumbs with her own memories for him to find.

With his second wind Squall remembers the orphanage as well, but gets there in the wrong part of the timeline, with a much younger Edea. This is the first part where he meets her, and tells her about the Sorceress and Seed. He then gets lost again in the temporal rift, following Rinoa's breadcumbs/sorceress bullshit/memories/feathers until he appears next to her in the meadow.

Cue good ending, everyone is happy, etc.

But wait, Ultimecia will rise again!

Yes she will, but her world wasn't barren in the first place, everything we know is that she was strong as fuck, and had a fortress near the orphanage. She'll rise in power, go back to the past, be defeated and die when the time comes. Since she's from much further in the future, Squall & co. are probably dead even before she's born, so it's not their problem. They got their good ending.

There's one catch though: the sorceress powers are lost forever. Why? because THEY are stuck in a time loop. Ultimecia>Edea>Adel>Rinoa>Ultimecia. After Ultimecia dies(in the future), there won't be a Sorceress ever again.

Time travel is bullshit.

At least it's the simplest form of time travel possible. There's only one static timeline, and moving "through time" can easily be compared to moving through space, they don't create any new timelines or anything of the sort. It's simply impossible, that's the aesop of the game, dealing with the past and carrying on, enjoying the time you have.