Monthly reminder

...

But unlocking shit isn't winning the game
>the normalfag definition of pay to win is now is unheard of
And thus those things aren't P2W. They're just shit, usually.

Is there any more bullshit p2w system than Morrowind's?

I have a strong feeling OP lost to someone who has paid items(that probably don't even change the balance much) and is very butthurt about it

...

Morrowalk being p2w isn't the issue, the issue is is being shit.

...

The unsung heroes of our youth.
They purchased memories at the cost of their disposable income.
God bless them for they are still grinding, trying to gain social status through video games.
Don't forget their sacrifice.

Sounds like you were a shit friend dude.
Friends don't let friends piss away that much money for stupid shit

Ouch.

I actually created that OP image for them while I was having an argument about their achievements in games.
They didn't listen to me and told me that I was too poor to afford cash items.

I didn't press them. Its best not to disturb a drug addicts delusion of grandeur

Calling EXP boosters "pay to win" is just about the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen in my life.

The only time that a game becomes "pay to win" is if you pay money to get upgraded equipment that you cannot obtain by any other means. Any other definition is from crybaby pussies who can't handle grinding.
Then play twice as much as him you squalling nancy-boy. "Pay to grind" is not "Pay to win."

Your logic does not make sense.
you cant grind for EXP boosts

Anyone remember WoW when they started releasing cash pets?

You completely misquoted mr you blithering retard. Nowhere in that post did I say "pay to win is when you can't grind." I said its when you can buy equipment with money that you can't get any other way. Exp boosters don't count because they don't do amything except speed up game progress. If you're seriously so fucking stupid that you'd go PvP with someone twice your level, no matter how they got there, you can't cry about how they have paid to win. You probably have more pressing matters like not drowning in your glasses of water or making sure you get your shoes on the right food before the third try.

...

More options is always better. Even if we pretend that all the unlocks are balanced they never fucking are there must be situations/maps in which one option is superior or there would be no point in the unlocks existing. Flexibility is a strength all of its own.

I understand, and mostly agree with the arguments that paying for less grind is definitely under the P2W umbrella. However, if its a PvE game, I feel there's a much much higher "line" the game needs to cross before the P2W parts become an actual issue.

Some examples of both "shitty" P2W and "passable" P2W for both categories:
Shitty:
PVP: Game that lets you buy yourself further progress. In a PVP setting, this alone is enough to be "shitty" P2W. Also, most games with this, also go the extra step and give paying players massive advantages (World of Tanks, War Thunder, etc.).
PVE: Being forced to pay just to be as good as paying players, such has all the best weapons being DLC only (Payday 2).

Passable:
PVP: NOTHING but skins available for purchase. As soon as you let players buy progress in a PVP setting, it's a problem.
PVE: Buying progress isn't nearly as grievous a sin. For a PVE game, it only reaches "shitty" P2W when you can buy things that a non-paying player can never have (or, arguably, if the grind is literally SO bad that the game just isn't remotely fun unless you pay).

PoE was fine for the longest time; buying more stash tabs with real money is still low enough that it's not a problem. Now that they've integrated premium stash tabs with online auction house-like shops, though, that's become a problem.

Weew. this definition makes a lot more games pay to win. thanks for the heads up!

?????

you're wrong, hes the one wasting money. Hes pic related

Is this where you have your mental melt down and start talking about the game you're playing currently?
Its okay user, your game is pay to win.
Don't need to get upset over that fact.
You will get over the fact you wasted several years on pay to win garbage that people will laugh at you for playing eventually

that would be a much better image if the face got more and more distorted.

any artists?

In PVE, I'd agree with you. But in PVP games with grinding, if progress in the grind gets you better equipment/stats/items/etc., then paying for progress makes it pay to win.
If you're presented with a choice between "lose a shitload until you have enough currency/XP to actually be a threat and start winning" or "pay and immediately be a threat", it's pay to win.

Oh whoops, accidentally replied twice to the same person, saying basically the same thing.
Don't post on chans after not sleeping, kids.

Reminder:
No game that is sold at a retail price (ie not F2P) should not include cash shops or ways to purchase content already in the game - regardless if it's accessible without paying. Paying to buy a game should include all the content in the game with no strings attached. The only content should be charged for is those added to the game after the release.

What would compel someone to complain about
but then go on to write out just that.

Paying to speed up progression does make something P2W if success is even partially reliant on character progression. If all other things are equal (time spent playing, skill of players, etc) than these sorts of boosts would put the player that pays for them at a distinct advantage over the one that doesn't.

I don't see the problem with the last one? You already had to pay a monthly subscription didn't you?

Well judging by that chart, Warthunder is not pay to win, as premium aircriaft are not better (and are often shittier) than normal line aircraft.

Get fucked. I'm making Warthunder thread

There is an endless stream of P2W defence force fags who have convinced themselves that paying to access gameplay unlocks is not P2W. Dirty Bomb a good example? Even their fucking PR cunts defend it.

...

What about microtransactions added post release or, even more of a grey area, what about when an expansion adds exceptional items or raises the level cap? Then base game players are at a disadvantage.

You should take note of how the addicts don't take into account their time as being worth value.

It's no a surprise coming from a warthunder player but you should really try to improve your literacy skills.

Found the other one

DIE

The real annoying shit is when everything is "free to play" and they go agains the definition. If you cant get everything for free then its not "free to play"

Those ruskis are great at conditioning people on paying for shit.
read this. plebsruntheshow.wordpress.com

no, it's not

The redpilled name for free games is "free software" or "GNU games"

of course they are not MMOs that lock you to their servers.

Adding content post-release should only be acceptable if the content does not overlap with each other (additional content altering base game content or players with new content able to interact/compete with those that don't have access to it). This means that additional content that you want players to pay for will inevitably split the playerbase, and the only way to add content without splitting the playerbase is to release it as free updates to the base game.

The idea that developers have that they can charge for additional content while somehow not splitting up players is a pure fantasy. By introducing the option to pay for more content you are inevitably going to create a divide between players that do and don't pay for them - either explicitly by making playable content exclusive to players that pay more or implicitly by giving bonuses to those that pay more. Even with things as innocuous as purchasable cosmetics, the addition of them in a retail price game still creates a situation of haves and have-nots.

Read the rest of the quote
>if success is even partially reliant on character progression
OW's progression system let's you bypass it by let players pay for loot crates it rewards for leveling up. This doesn't make it P2W since the progression in the game does not affect players in their success in playing the game, but only in their chances to get cosmetics they want. It's still shit for the fact that they have microtransactions in a retail game, but it's not giving any advantage in the performance of the player that pays for them. Not unless you count winning the cosmetic lottery as winning in the game.

Can you play the game for free? If so, they are free to play, not free to access all content in the game.
That's how they worm their way out of having to admit to the "free" portion as basically a demo.

You can do that in MSG V but nothing is trapped behind a paywall. You can unlock everything for free, it just takes 55 real time days of waiting to “develop” everything and another 8 real time months of logging on every single day hoping to get a set of MB coins to have enough to buy four FOBs.

Does that count?

Holy fuck would it really kill you to pony up maybe $5 for an otherwise entirely free game? Everyone knows cosmetics dont make ANY money what so ever and a game that lets people buy power to support the expensive server costs is better than one is dead because it didnt.

0/10, go back to cuckchan.

Ironic shitposting is still shitposting.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it?

Saying the exact same things idiots say isn't really much of a joke, it just makes you look like an idiot.

If i give you a (You) will you leave?

Not being able to recognize a joke is a sign of autism, user.

Now I agree that image is hard to read and I don't keep up with WoW, but I think that's not about buying a month of subscription. It's buying a month of subscription you are forced to sell off to someone else in the game, basically meaning you pay money for in game gold while others can play the game for free if they have way too much in game cash.

...

I can recognize a joke. I just wish you'd post one instead of being one.

LoL is not pay2win you just need 2 tier 1 champs for your role and a full runepage with runes. Since you got that when you are level 30 there are nothing in LoL that makes it pay2win

You want a joke go see a circus

If I have to pay more than once for a game, it's p2w. It might not as bad having exp boosters or cosmetics, but any virtual shop that even has an option to pay with real money is kikery at it's finest. Pay once, play the game.

I'll do it. What'd you have in mind?

according to

LoL is pay to win as You are unable to get all the characters without paying
see for details

Pretending to be retarded is not making a joke - it is turning yourself into a joke. People are laughing at you, not with you.

It's not P2W. It's kikery, but it's not paying to improve success. See

Reported.

...

You get IP at a faster rate that new champions come out so yes you can. Also there are not one champion in the game that you can only get with real money

the eyes change user, hes swallowing more and more of the koolaid.

True, but a comic I haven#t saved summed that up pretty nicely:

Summed up, why the fuck would I spend time ingame to achieve something can simply buy with money I earn much quicker than ingame farming.
Sure, there can be fun in getting ingame shit, but farming money usually isn't.
Why farm for five hours if I can cash what I get in an hour of irl work?

The only place I experienced this was Planetside 2, and they were just side grades. Even then it didn't effect me.
Yeah, this threw me off as well, but I just ignored it. Never gave Daybreak money though and the game is dead anyways.

JUST DONT PLAY THE FUCKING GAME IF YOU DONT LIKE IT HOLY SHIT

Lol is pretty P2W

Yeah this is usually the normal argument. People will defend shit like world of tanks with it.

World Of Tanks attracts a special type of retard
its a game for people who are afraid of breaking social norms or care very deeply about their credibility.
The game boils down to being counter strike for people with horrible reflexes

its pay to win by your definition

OP image is retarded.
Half way through the thread we realized that there is a better definition

refer to

i play warframe. i've never spent a penny. i can wreck people who have.
but the game is PvE and non competative so "winning" doesnt really matter.

...

...

Calm down, halfchan newfriend. We have IDs you know.

Here, user. I'm not a drawfag, but I want to improve.

Up to a point yes. But you have become the product for that game. The time necessary to invest for specific gear gets extended and extended. Grind is worse than diablo at this point.

the struggle…

This.
fucking half cucks need to go

It is just about MMO.
In EVE you can sell play time and it is an item you can loot if someone caries it around.
Nobody gives a fuck because it has the best economy MMO has.

...

In the case of a free to play MMO, having a monthly premium is fine by me, even if it can be considered pay to win. It's better than the same game being pay to play, that way you're not locked out of the game if you can't pay that month for whatever reason.

to me, i just play the game. i enjoy killing hoards of enemies that get harder and harder. and i enjoy customizing shit.
the resources i need for something dictate what planet i play. i never grind this game. my friends grind. "hey user we're gonna go to this boring map and fight this boring boss repeatedly for an item WE JUST HAVE TO HAVE for the next 6 hours. wanna come?"

grinding is a choice in warframe. its not necessary because you can mod some easily available weapons from the start to be end game viable.

i'm an addict and have been playing the game for a long time. so naturally i have 1000s of plat and every frame. almost every weapon…. but i have friends who play like me… they dont farm, they only do what they find fun.

Its the same guy replying to you.
He was probably too stupid to understand how IDs work

How can you say that when the whole game is grind ? Even what you call killing hoards of enemies that get harder is repetitive wave killing that goes on and on and on. I've got a friend who is now his 4th year into that thing and the wave missions haven't changed one bit.

but thats not a grind to me… unless you consider space invaders "grinding for points"

grinding is just a state of mind. think about the difference between you playing something repetitive because you enjoy the challenge vs praying for favorable RNG. if i get a "bad" roll, i dont really care in warframe because im usually upgrading something or trying a new weapon or build. when i suddenly get a rare or good item, its a bonus.

that "piece of candy" "ooh i got a shiny new weapon" aspect of the game doesnt appeal to me… i just really like maiming hoards of enemies while being able to creatively experiment with different builds and strategies.

Space invaders doesn't drop items. Warframe does.
Space invaders does not level up your warframe or weapons. Warframe does.

and? if space invaders dropped things that could be potentially used later in the game to optionally add to your ship its suddenly a grind? what if there were more levels to space invaders that got harder and harder and with some items you can now play those?

warframe has a limit to what you can equip and how powerful you can become, and the levels dont have a limit.

is every RPG a grind to you?

M8, warframe specifically is painfully repetitive. To the point where you improve your guns gets them to level 0 or 1 so you can level them up again.
If that ain't grind I dunno what is. Don't get me started on drop rates for quest items. It has only gotten worse in the past 2 years.

You forgot to add

user, let's take a moment to think about the word you're using. Grind. What's grinding mean again? Rubbing stuff between harder stuff to slowly get it from state A to state B. So what's grind mean in videogames? Slowly doing things over and over to get from state A to state B.
So yes, if Space Invaders had shit you unlocked by playing it over and over again it would suddenly be a grind, if said unlocks happen slowly. Which they apparently very much do in Warframe from what I've heard of it, but that and it's quality asses are all I know of it anyway.

...

so if i wasnt doing those things for the purpose of going to point A to point B… and im doing it because its fun is it still grinding?

yes, its repetative. but so are alot of games. it doesnt make them a grind. or pay to win. you can grind almost any game with stat progression… you can farm almost any game with state progression.

im not just mindlessly unlocking loot crates praying for good RNG. im playing a level and "going for the high score" by going as far in it as i can and racing to extract at the end when it gets too crazy for me to handle. then i go back to base, increase my stuff as much… maybe try out a new build or experiment… and dive back in. maybe try a different game mode.

what i do isnt the most efficient way of farming or grinding its fun though

The only acceptable difference between paying players and free players is "paying players paid money". If there's ANY other difference, no matter how insignificant, it's pay2win cancer.

what if its PVE and not competitive?

Let me ask you this. Have you farmed a hydroid while the questline was initially put into the game ?
Repeating quest missions for a mark(minimum of 5) and obtaining mastery, then waiting for a 1% chance for an encounter with small drop rates to proc, so that you can beg for drops that might give you several weapons and a chance to fight this guy for hydroid parts. The gustag 3 alone is something that you can get at best a 4% chance and then a chance for items to fight that hek guy.
Oh and to trigger the 4% chance you have to be doing equally repetitive missions.
Your chances are so low, that you could spend a month just trying to get the parts. I remember doing only that and getting 1 encounter per 2 days, while wasting tons of time doing the same missions.
And you call this not-grind ? From what my high level friends tell me, the grind has only gotten worse. And all of the quest shit involves repeating missions numerous times.
Yes, some people find grind fun, but it's still grind.

The second point is false, neck yourself. Buying things to save time is not even remotely P2W.

no, hydroid i got way after i got frost prime actually. i actually didnt realize when i had a completed set and had 2 because over the years i'd help clanmates and randoms help fight the boss.

but yea… i dont go out of my way to get stuff. especially if it looks tedious. but yea, i know plenty of people that farmed hikou prime pouches for weeks… but its an option. not required to play or get far in the game. def not required to have fun.

...

So if a speedrunner speedruns a game because he enjoys going through the game really fast, does it make the game a speedrunning game? No, because that is not the thing the game's designers intended. And Warframe was designed to be a grind. Your method of enjoying it or not has no bearing on the material involved. Whether you are having fun slowly rubbing corn between two rocks or shooting the same things over and over with fat assed robots in tight suits.

...

You can choose to ignore the main questlines of the game but that doesn't make them go away.

???

Oh boy, here come the butthurt pay2win fags. Truly we should all have limitless time to make up for the ingame shops.

If I wanted to make a F2P online game, what's the most consumer friendly way to cover costs and maybe make some shekels? Purely donations seems like it could be spotty.

...

Skins with the option to fully disable them.

Dota 2 has pretty much the best f2p model out there.

>>>/cuckchan/