MMOs

FFXI remains the best option, unless you are a massive casual pussy that can't handle the difficulty and wants to solo the whole game like a retard

I feel you bro, the most fun i had in my MMO history was pk'ing players. GW2 takes that alongside eachother to the extreme with the shared loot, everyone gets rewards/exp etc. They might as well be ghosts or NPCs, which is kinda ironic considering how GW1 had NPCs you could group with if there were no players. I guess they found a way to put that in without coding them.
no, you kill me pls

(heiled)
No, your game is shit like all the others, it's just you in particular that enjoy that flavour of shit. But there's no reason to '>muh game' in this thread, we're discussing the state of the genre and even you can't disagree with how bad it is.

Top kek nigger

You're literally enjoying shit, there are various pictures portraying this (the images made in paint, not actual scat) but i won't bother searching for them as i'm pretty sure you've seen them.

Also being a massive bitter nigger faggot doesn't prevent me for stating the fact that YOUR game is SHIT and ALL other MMOs are COMPLETE SHIT. Get over yourself you elitist cunt.

Devs shrunk the beast sizes since they are SJW trannies that needed to do some signaling. They earned their failure.

...

So to get back on topic and bump, are there literally any good MMOs to play?

Play older MMO private servers (Ultima Online, Ragnarock Online, etc) with friends.
Pick up the new Final Fantasy MMO if you just need a fix.

I honestly don't think so.

Sure, UO still exists for some reason but the freeshard community is made up of grognard roleplaying faggots.

Maybe, maybe you might enjoy EQ on a classic server but that's still an acquired taste.

I preferably want something new, f2p and has a decent playerbase.

The only size you know hyper 8000 man.

Why not just play a single player RPG? Do you really need that sociopath kick?

if you wanna satisfy that MMO fix and don't mind low pop then maybe you can try out a NWN1 persistent world server
nwnlist.com/
avoid sinfar unless you don't mind erping

if thats not good enough for you and you liked WoW when it was younger, you can wait till maybe next year for crestfall, a private WoW server that'll ban VPNs(and thus gold sellers), to come out, and if you wanna play NOW, then you can play on the buggy and massively overpopulated elysium PvP servers with gigantic login queues or their PvE server which last i checked this week didn't have a login queue, and has a large, healthily sized population

Ever heard of PSO2?
It's still the best.

I'd like to be a robot, don't read nip though.

I would play this over ffxiv but don't know how to start. Apparently you need to get trough some nipponese website and shit. also the game is in moonrunes but there might be a fanpatch that breaks everytime the game updates

Been checking out some videos of Bless Online. Don't know much about the game, but it seems like they are going to have open world PvP and looking at the comments I just can't help but get depressed.
Nothing but whiny cunts crying about how they won't play because they're afraid of ganks and that they can't play it like a single player game, begging for PvE servers.

And they have the balls to say 'pk'ers' kill those games. God I hate these fucking niggers.

Considering the majority of MMORPGs and its market is now on mobile, it's effectively dead. At least your dreams will spin on in its grave until true virtual reality is realised 2 years after you die of old age

Shhhhhhhhhh

No more dreams

Only hugging now.

I like Elder Scrolls Online. No bully.

Vendetta Online. But it's P2P and at the end of the day it's just Freespace: MMO edition. So you're paying for something you could play for free and have to deal with spergs.

I'm not going to bully you, user. I'm just disappointed.

Star Trek Online isn't too bad, as the game is pretty much supported by whales & the Zen store items aren't required to beat anything ever. Hell, you can get lots of ships for free just by completing seasonal events. It has its problems, but it definitely could be worse.

It was dead as soon as publishers figured out they don't even need the 'role-playing' and 'game' part to make money.
You just look at any MMO these days and ask yourself, what's the fucking point? Why play this?

From time to time, a game will be good when it's brand new and doing something the others haven't, but you shouldn't get too attached. rip archeage

To interact with people.
Just play any of them and start interacting.

Project Gorgon is worth a shot. It's actually slated for full release end of this year, and devs have been pushing regular updates. Hope you don't mind 2002 graphics.

If you want a shitload of pve content and questing, LOTRO will take months to hit max level, but you'll need to buy expansion packs. It's pretty dated, 10th anniversary in a few months, but I had a lot of fun with it a few years back. Excellent for RP if you like that kind of autism.

Crowfall is upcoming and may be promising. Kikestarted, but they also secured actual funding, and seem to know what they're doing.

I don't really know what else is good or interesting.

The biggest tragedy I can think of in MMOs. How did Trion fuck up so badly?

Sure, if you like games that are only worth playing for 20 minutes at a time every few hours.

...

nigger why would I want the story completed for me? or anything? it just leads to players not knowing how to play

MMOs are fundamentally shit, it's quantity over quality garbage that is strung up by grinding, chatting with others and posturing over your gear or success in PvP. I have nothing but regret for having played MMOs, I've probably sank 5000+ hours into them and I have fucking nothing to show for it, I could have played better games, or done something productive. If your excuse for staying on one is your friends you can keep in contact with them through Discord or something, stop dumping time into these steaming turds.

I am also enjoying ESO-at least until Pantheon and Crowfall come out-so it'll probably be another year or two.

We're making it reaction face general?

FFXIV is the best MMORPG I've played, after playing most of the major releases since 2000.

Yes. R.I.P.

...

ofc it's dead if you played wow for 10 years and don't want to try anything else
well wow is shit anyway.

I always found it weird people obsess over this. Yes, the breast sizes were reduced on some frames. But then they turned around and introduced more body frames, many of which had even bigger tits than originally. Even then I don't really remember there being a flat chested option.

Wildstar had tons of flaws, but tittygate wasn't really one of them.

Isnt Project Gorgon the one where someone got banned for disconnecting people with a Tuba?

Try GW2. The f2p model is pretty fair, what I imagine might be the worst restriction is the limited range of items you can buy on the trading post. But since the game has a hard cap on stats and gear it's not really a problem. And besides everyone has the exact same gear in pvp mode

Nice try AN. No one wants your SJW infested game ever again.

That better a motherfucking typo with an accidental "2".

would be good, except for the fact the only outfit on this site is a bunch of redditors trying to keep their dying group afloat

What's GW2?

What?

One must ask what an MMO can offer that other games can't?
Simple fact of the matter is that if you enjoy playing cooperatively than perhaps you should play dedicated cooperation games.
If it is for PVP there is a wide plethora of competitive games.
If you just want a big cozy fantasy time sink there are quite a few of them out there.

I'd say it is a pretty dead genre and maybe it deserves to be.
I was looking forward to Everquest Next but that joined the World of Darkness MMO on a list of things that are never going to happen.

Go play gw1, don't touch the trash that is GW2.

I'm enjoying ff14 so suck it.

i'm somewhat into ffxiv but its super grindy. I recently leveled one class to 60 and it took me about 300 hours, going through the story missions and all which i didn't even pay much attention to.
suggest me some game please?

yeah, but the nipponese website is pretty standard.

however, the only real obstacle on that website is how you have to
do a fucking captcha in japanese
which means
1. you need a wonponese letter dictionary (they use Katakana, not moon-picture-letters)
2. really fucking good eyesight
3. trained 100+ hours at 'Spot the Difference!' games as a child
after that a english site has a tweaker that allows you to get the full game, patch it into english and then play it
other than the above, it isn't that hard.

I wish FF14 didn't have braindead wow combat.

The truly terrible thing is that it didn't start out as that but it sure as fuck became that.
For a good 2 months it was the best MMO I ever played in my life and I played far too many MMOs.
They treated players like they weren't retarded.
There was no subscription so there were no lockouts and most armor and weapons wasn't based on rare drops, it was token based.
People got a full top tier set and quit playing very quickly.
So to try and stop them from doing that they turned it into another gear tredmill to try and incentivize their microtransaction bullshit.

Storywise is was about group of all the races trying to slay world eating dragons.
One of them happened to be a lesbian plant woman, and that was about as progressive as it got.
They got Felicia day to voice one of the characters and she is ear cancer.

Then this half-way decent party with its hetero white male lead based on shit written by a guy gets scrapped for 2 lesbian humans with completely unfuckinglikable personalities because cunt writer.
The antagonist then became this shitty mary sue lol XD crazy plant girl who is just like so smart.

Then they started

It quickly became the worst MMO I ever played and this includes a meriad of terrible Chinese and Korean grindfests.

wow is even more brain dead, at least ffxiv has lots of skills to use and shit. dungeons are just some tank running them with heirlooms, leveling is too quick.
shadow priest is boring as fuck compared to basically anything else. dungeons are piss easy. Can't remember what level i played wow to, i think it was into the 90's.

If you want combat, go play Vindictus. Or Mount and blade. I don't play dps and good tanking requires a certain amount of skill. But even when you're dps it's different than wow.

Joe Camel cosplaying as Misty is unexpectedly sexy.

i'll continue a bit, I've only played DPS in both games. Bit of healing in ffxiv just early 10-35lvl content

Come on now.

Oh sorry mister hardcore dude, how about you start a kickstarter for a super duper high skill no casuals allowed mmo that will break your brain and your fingers if you want to be good at it?

at least ffxiv requires you to remember skill rotations and when to use what in different dungeons. at lvl 60 you need to keep some bullshit buff with a short cooldown up with few others too.

It takes practise when you are trying not to be a dick to your healer

...

was meant for

laggy piece of shit. I'm not gonna play a game where I can't maintain a good fps

Stop playing on toaster?

last time i played there was a city which had huge fps drops and it was well known issue.

I have a i5-3570k @ 4.5ghz so I don't think that is the issue, at the time i had a 7970 I think. not sure if i had upgraded to the new gpu at the time

No thanks.

Stop playing on toaster.

However bad it might be, it's still better than FF14.
I wish there was game like Tera, but good.

7970 is a good fucking GPU still. It ran bf4 almost maxed exept like AA max 60fps 1080p

also the cpu should not be an issue. bf1 runs well with that cpu and its known to be a cpu heavy game (no i did not buy bf1)

No such thing.

runescape but thats not new and it went to shit with the grand exchange and shit. no longer are the worlds 1&2 filled with selling shit

(checked)
Hang on to your trousers a little longer. IIRC they said SE will change combat system with the upcoming Stormblood. Lets hope it is not shit.

Still FF14 combat > current WoW combat. Rotations are at least not as dead fixed as WoW and you will have to improvise on the fly in raids (afaik NIN, DRG, BRD have to). And something are really hard to learn and pull of in real combat like MCH wildfire opener. Took me months to figure out on my own because each to their own opener as long as you pulled it off decently with good damage done, and many more months to be able to pull it off consistently in fight.

Yeah, there used to be a bug where playing a tuba caused a memory leak that made the game crash. Naturally, it got used for griefing a lot.

Unless you definition of interacting is "spam memes in trade chat all day" then there's no interaction left.

Tera is the only MMO worth 2 shits gameplay wise.

Is it? I've seen my sis play it a couple of times, but it doesn't seem much different from the other shit tab-target games.

What's good about it?

It's a shit tab-target game that locks your cursor in place to make it feel more like an action game.

That's kind of what I said. What's good about it though?

Nothing. It's exactly what I said.

Tera does not tab target. Like at all.

Its a action mmorpg. The PvP is especially awesome. Has without a doubt the best gameplay in any mom right now.

The fact that you think it's a tab target game shows only that ypuve never touched it. Tera will absolutely ruin you on that tab target shit forever…not that that's hard to do.

Actively aiming attacks and dodging incoming damage is beautiful…in Tera you're only as good as your reflexes and a lot of shitty geared players can crush higher level geared player through ability alone.

Too bad the game has turned to complete and utter shit with the recent patches.
"Hey just make everything have an IK Iframe you need to do, what do you mean certain classes only have 1 Iframe?"
"Look Mystics are unused (in spite of being better than priests for higher end parties) we better buff their DPS"
"Mystic DPS is too high, better nerf all healer's dps!"

Bitch bitch bitch…

You got a better mmo? Didn't think so.

Ps my mystic is awesome.

You're right it's complete shit and it being bad means that it's good!

I miss playing my Mystic, Furry.Balls. I also miss the Thrall of Life being this thing, did they ever change that back?

I kinda want to get back into Tera, but I feel like it's been too long since I last played for it to be worthwhile.

you know if it weren't for the fact the bosses are jokes of what they used to be
the new classes trivialize what was already an incredibly trivial pve
new classes are way more powerful than the originals
The rubberbanding
the fact that unless your playing a new class or a slayer its better to play elins since they literally have the best animations and smallest hitbox
Seriously the elin favoritism is absurd that they now have 2 exclusive classes
You can only do half as many dungeons as people who pay for the game
most of it is just a gear grind than an enchantment grind

MMORPG genre isn't dead, it's just the problem is that anything decent is locked away in Asia. Hell that goes for MMO's in general.

Got any examples? As far as I know the Asians are getting the same grindfest p2w soulless garbage we get, except recently we don't even get the titties they come with.

Only thing I can think of that might be decent right now is Dragon's Dogma Online which is Jap only.

Asian MMOs have always been cancer, even back during the golden age of MMOs. Which were genuinely creative or interesting mechanically? Mabinogi and what else? PangYa (severely stretching 'massively multiplayer')? The rest are the same Asian grinder with some gimmick like Granado Espada.

is shit, and the upcoming new class is extra shit too

Actual MMOs or more shit that is instanced to fuck or packed with so much P2W it breaks the entire game?

Dragon Dogma, PSO2, and that Gundam MMO come to mind.

You guys might like Uthgard. It's a free hosted DAoC server with a huge population. I think the current iteration of it has been live for just 1 week now so a good time to get in.

uthgard.org/

Before the game even came out, the lead designer said in an interview that she refused to put breasts on female Charr because it "Didn't make sense"
BItch, Why don't you try explaining that to my dick?

I'd avoid it. It's okay until you get to endgame and realize the developers have no clue what to do to keep players logging in once they've grinded enough materials to make the current best gear. Linking class unlocks to story quest progress is also a huge turn off, especially after being spoiled by Phantasy Star Online 2 keeping a complete separation of game mechanics/unlocks from story. The combat is okay, but Capcom does a piss poor job of introducing new enemies to keep it fresh. To top off the shit sundae, their idea of fixing the annoying enrage system on bosses was to remove the system for enemies introduced in 2.0 and just make them nigh invincible at all times, not just during enrage, unless you break off infected parts of their bodies.

I think MMOs currently have a fundamental problem with them.. no not the players, though they can be whiny entitled cunts most of the time. Rather, its that nothing you do "matters" in any way, and you arent in a large enough world where you can actually carve out some sort of piece thats your own that also has an impact on the game.

What do I mean exactly? Well consider the (and I loathe to say this) "benchmark" for MMOs, WoW. Nothing you do matters one fucking bit. You can queue up in LFD or pay for a lvl 100 boost or w/e, or you can mindlessly grind mobs or do what that one guy did and pick flowers in a starting zone until you're max level. Then you go talk to the big leaders for quests, they still hail you as some super champion thats saved the world a dozen times over, rather than dismissing you as some weirdo who spent all his time killing boars in the woods. You're still stuffed into this hero role, praised as the savior, despite doing NOTHING to earn it

Meanwhile, if you did "quest" and go about saving the day, then despite freeing/saving/killing whatever, nothing in the world ever changes. You can murder your way through endless amounts of monsters, and they just show back up as if nothing happened. You talk to an npc and "oh yeah man, those bears are a real problem" meanwhile you're literally dragging your boots because you're weighed down by all the bear assholes you collected from killing every bear in a 100 mile radius.

And this undermines any "connection" the player has to the world. They're just mindless fuckwit number 20391, they're more generic and useless and undeservedly crowned with "the chosen one" titles than fucking Link in 99.9% of zelda games (wind waker being a rare exception). So you dont end up feeling like you've "earned" anything. And this is true of most if not all MMORPGs that arent some asset stealing ripoff of the same isometric shit from some other game

In single player games you have to put in effort, and the things you do impact the "world/people" in it. You may or may not be able to play "however" you want (typical JRPG vs western ones), but you still feel as if your actions MATTERED. You dont feel that at all with MMORPGs. You do nothing, or you go about saving the world, either way any given area you're "saved" is still overrun with demons or goblins or mandragoras or whatever else and the citizens are all annoyed/scared/angry at it after you've dealt with it. Meanwhile you turn around and oh look, you're seeing the same thing you just did being done by 20 other people, and you feel no connection to anything.

Please don't.

id rather that he does

I have a feeling your solution to the problem is going to be worse than the problem.
"Make quests unique" only means that people are going to have variations of the same quest. Especially if your focus is on thousands of players.

either that or maybe quests are unique in such a way that they can all only be done once during the server's lifespan

The second, but still connected issue, is that in the majority of mmorpgs, you cant actually effect the game world physically. Oh sure, maybe in asherons call or ff11/14 or most mmos you can have "housing" or a "guild mansion" or something, where you or your group can go and hang out, store things, chat about shit, plan adventures or whatever. But they're almost without exception, "zoned" or "phased" or basically sectioned off from the rest of the world. They're isolated so every little person can get their own corner to go sit alone in. Because everyone has to be included, no one can be left out.

And because of that they have no impact on the game. Sure maybe you can set missions or troops or whatever else there. But what does this do besides in someway provide resources to the player? Its like in xenoblade X I believe where you can set about telling drones to harvest shit.. but who the fuck cares when its just some random token or currency that the game is pissing at you (and everyone else) like they just drank an entire water cooler in 2 minutes flat? It doesnt feel meaningful and just turns into another grind as the developers start expecting everyone to have the insane harvested materials or goods or money that come with those sorts of "upgrades." They start balancing around it and it stops even feeling helpful or unique and starts feeling mandatory. But thats not the real issue.

The real issue, is that it falls back into the same vein as your actions not impacting the world. You cant "be" anyone, or any group, in the game, because EVERYONE has to be "the one." Even games with factions that vie for control of areas ends up feeling fruitless, the perks often useless or trivial or limited to that area. OR they imbalance the servers so badly that one group dominates completely and there feels like zero competition (see: most wow severs being either horde or alliance sever and the other group can piss off), so why even bother with it? You're handed victory just for playing on the populated side.

The end result is that NOTHING you do matters in the world, and so the only thing left in the entire game that "matters" is a treadmill upon which you run endlessly to keep up with the latest gear or do the latest raid, which of course "you" did in later stories regardless of if you even played at that point. But even if you did it all feels pointless as well, because as soon as the next expansion comes out everything is useless, crap gear from new zones dominates the hard earned shinies, again so no one feels left out .. ever.

That's an even worse idea.
You really are going to program 100K+ unique quests?
Or alternatively are you going to have a complete content wasteland where there's no real incentive to get into the game because all the quests are done already?

i didnt say itd be a good idea

So the problem is thus: Compared to single player games, they all build themselves into a corner because of the very concept of the game itself requiring lots of players, and needing those players to keep playing, and that means they need to be "happy" and feel like they matter in some way, to get their participation trophy. But in order to achieve that, they basically have to water down anything that WOULD matter, to the point it doesnt, so that everyone can have a turn, and at that point it just feels more like an average weekend at your mums house than any impactful gaming experience where you, the player character, must earn the right to bone anons mother, to slay all the other would be cock heroes, to prove your worth through tireless effort, and prove your dick the most worthy in the land.

I'm not sure why I turned this into a "I fuked ur mum" joke but there you have it

Regardless, some of you have responded already, and let me just say, I dont KNOW if theres a solution. I think there could be, but it would require the games adapt and change their very underlying principle. That every player ISNT special. That just being at the top level and in "good gear" doesnt give you the right of being "the champion" and facing all the biggest baddies, buying "your own house" etc, of fucking all the hot mums, to having every lore figure acknowledge you as "the hero of X" because you picked enough flowers to get to level cap.

Rather, they need to be willing to let shit players be shit. To let people who just bum around doing random weak side shit like just killing bears or picking flowers, BE random blokes doing side shit and not "the hero." Oh you didnt do the hard solo content that requires you face down and defeat this hard monster on your own? You only did the generic weak shit? Oh well you're not "THE SAVIOR" of our village.. oh sure you can get to level cap and go on to the next zone of bears, but you havent DONE much for us rather than odd jobs, sure you're strong, but you havent proven your fortitude/worth

Let the people who put in the effort earn those titles and fame and the right to go do the harder content like raids and what not. And give them perks for doing it. Let them form prestigious groups that can buy land in the game and build their own territories, recruit unique npcs from the world based on what they can offer, hell, let them go to war with each other rather than just generic faction wars that end up being tossed out half the time for "story progression" shit.

Let things we do matter. Maybe we go back to that town thats 30 levels below us and see that things are doing well, all the big baddies are gone, theres some random fucks killing bears, but you've opened up trade routes or whatever else that make the town BETTER and worth going back to or something. Whereas now X city in Y zone thats -30 levels from you is just so much piss in the wind in mmos now.

If MMOS want to survive, they need to start making the actions of the player matter. Maybe my ideas on how to do it are meh, but I'm not a game dev. I just know that their player retention SUCKS, even functionally great games like AA end up dying because a treadmill at max level just… isnt enough anymore. Players expect more. And they arent getting it.

If they dont change, they'll die off, thats about it

…actually
maybe it could work
maybe there could be GMs who only moderate by coincidence in a game that explicitly is VERY easy to modify the server of without a server restart
you could easily make mobs stop respawning
you could easily make mobs spawn
you could easily make new mobs that haven't been seen before(though they'd probably just be recolors/resizes of other ones)
you could even easily make new items(probably with pre-existing models)
and you know what else?
certain GMs, who are each assigned to only work on one server with 6-49 other GMs, could take control of NPCs, and make sure that the actions of the players matter in the in-game world
but then how would the MMO be profitable?

also those certain GMs could modify the server with ease

yeah, but gaijins can only play safely on ship 2, and buying any cool costumes or parts for your robutts cost a ton

Sure that'd work those 50 GMs wouldn't certainly play favorites like another game (EVE cough), and ruin the game

Not really. You can only spam global chat with guild drama safely on ship 2, but if you're actually looking to play the game, any ship is fine. I've been happily playing on a ship other than 2 since open beta.

Just to expand on something I said… the whole shitkickers killing bears for the locals thing. Fuck all why not even let players who consistently do things like that earn some sort of unique or semi-unique prestige for THAT as well? Or players who devote themselves to crafting and supplying cities(npcs) with arms?

let them become merchants or join local military outfits if they want. Become a part of that town, or move up and join higher armies, maybe even get to advance and actually end up being unique leaders in it who control the army of X or Y city for the SERVER. Imagine, no horde vs alliance shit, but there become two large group castles in a territory you've earned a place in the local kingdoms army in. They start fighting over territory, and you get to help choose to send in the military to stop them or not, or try to negotiate a treaty that actually effects the game map, or hell maybe you decide neither are "worthy" of being within your kingdom and enough of the court agrees so you go stomp both of them, or maybe you get pushed back and they join up and take over the kingdom and start imposing rules and taxes and shit.

… I'm being a bit out there, but you get the point, I think. Right now, we basically do nothing but run on a treadmill, because all thats considered relevant is gear grinds at top level raid content in pretty much all mmos. With occasional side pvp nonsense that ends up mattering very little if anything. But what if there were just, different ways to play the game period. You didnt HAVE to grind on the gear treadmill, because there WASNT really one. Sure some gear beats others, some swords are sharper or characters faster from fighting harder fights… but what really mattered and evolved was the story within the server and how the players played. Oh sure some demons could invade, but the players could choose how to deal with it rather than "oh this leader npc dude is gonna tell us how to do it and we're just along for the ride"

I dunno man, its gonna require some outside the box thinking and designing on how PLAYERS fit into MMOrpgs for them to really keep existing. You can make all the cool combat systems you want.. but when the game boils down to "im the player character therefore Im the hero, therefore everything is handed to me until max level when I get on the treadmill that ultimately wont matter because EXPANSION RESET!" .. it just isnt going to retain players

Hell WoW only keeps players because its the "go to" mmorpg and so many people are stuck in that rut, but its steadily dying off with each expansion retaining fewer and fewer players. Players WANT something else, something where they get to make choices that actually direct their character to do other things (I'm CONVINCED RPing would be way more popular if it wasnt all bullshit that had zero bearing or meaning on the game), and all companies seem to want to do is mimic wows design because it was profitable rather than coming up with their own designs. Which means we end up on the same damn treadmill of mediocrity

i did forget about that
guess you could just stick to the meaningless treadmill model for now then

An even further further thought on roles for players to fit themselves into. Going back to the "let the players choose how to deal with it [X group invades]," hell put in lots of lore and shit and base the possible solutions to it on things in game. Sure you could beat them back. or maybe those few who really dig into the lore and read shit in game ,those treasure hunters who find all the little secrets.. add stuff for THEM to find some rare mcguffin thatll help seal the threat away. Give hints and leave books and lore around to collect and research. Fuck all thered be a good group of players who would do this. You could even randomize the locations of items to a certain degree so it isnt "oh X guy on Y server found it, NOW EVERYONE KNOWS," you could come up with 4-5 locations and randomize the clues and require those clues be found to disarm traps that are randomized to a degree, and so on. So one person finding the solution doesnt mean everyone has it cause of "*randommmotitle*head.fuckyouheresalltheanswersyoulazycunt"

Give them titles and prestige for finding it and being along to help figure it out. Let them be able to take of advisor positions in the local kingdom if they reach a certain amount of milestones… sure only a few would get there, but you could have lots of lesser positions for other players and what not.

Sorry I've gone off on a tangent…. I just think there has to be more than "grind to level cap, then grind for gear, then repeat until the next expansion when you start all over"

Go on? This part actually sounds fun to me.

Last spiel post I promise

No, this wouldnt be my personal solution. Because it doesnt solve the problem. "Oh you got Y quest to kill X creature.. neat.. I got X quest to kill Y creature, yay were both the hero," would still be a thing if all you did was keep going with the same formula in general

Rather, as I've kind of tried to outline. There simply needs to be other paths and things to do, things that can matter or give you a reason to play. I HATE to mention this, but consider that shit-tier anime SAO. While the game itself was poorly designed and the story in the anime was trash, the actual IDEA of what you could do was decent. You had players who formed local armies and helped run cities. You had guilds that vied and fought for lands and control of kindgoms, leaders who were PLAYERS who could dictate local political policy, players who carved out names for themselves in local towns or who became merchants (insert rubbing hands together here) and focused on crafting with a bit of killing on the side.

Sure, you'd need a big focus on pvp and SERIOUS pvp balance to pull such things off, since a lot of it WOULD be about player interaction which could obviously devolve into combat and war. But if you do it well, make sure the game itself is balanced in combat, that tactics in battles mattered (and no not "zomg spam CCs on the healer and burst the dps down") and battles werent over in 3-4 seconds, then hell you wouldnt need every player to be geared to the nines or max out all their stats. You COULD have players who join battles while still having focused on some other area of the game for their own enjoyment or personal "role" in the world but still joined up with some group or guild for conquest or territory, and they'd still be able to contribute. Think, old RTS games that had hero characters but you only had 1-2 per map.. oh sure they were helpful, but they werent soloing the opposition, the grunts/troops do matter and you COULD win even without using the heroes.

Anyway, like I said, I'm rambling. But it still boils down to the same thing. Player choice doesnt matter in current MMOs. Which is why they're falling out of style. When all you can play with are whiny cunty children who feel entitled to everything and bitch about EVERYTHING, meanwhile all you can do is grind for gear.. people lose interest

Yeah, playing as a faceless pencil pusher really is the definition of fun, and certainly an idea that'll attract people.
"COME BE AN NPC, HAVE A SECOND JOB AND PAY ME FOR IT"

The reason SAO was able to do that was because the fundamental system governing the game, the Cardinal System, was built from the ground up for the explicit purpose of spontaneously creating new content and being able to implement all but the most massive, game changing updates without needing to shutdown the server. We're nowhere near that level of technology yet, and we're going to be stuck with the "race to the level cap, then start grinding for gear" design philosophy until then.

Sorry I havent actually like, outlined an MMO or anything. This is all just speculation on things you could do. But actually you bring up a point. You COULD actually even draw in the typically "solo" player crowd, the kind of play games like "the long dark," because they enjoy the typical solo experience or surviving. You could create zones that are mostly open areas, hell you could even make a certain amount but make them randomly generated to be unique, but that can be developed, but need to be mapped and explored by "survivalist players" who could sell maps and information on the terrain and wildlife to local guilds that would employ players to venture out in groups and clear areas of monsters then bring in players to clear places for camps, build roads, set up places to deforest or drain swamps… naturally all of this could take time and require npc support that you could command as you move up

Meanwhile, the large guilds would be investing resources (mostly money) into funding guilds (players) to do these things, or if they're large enough they could employ their own people to do it if they wanted to hire them or buy out companies players setup to do these things. Eventually you could clear the area for cities to start up and become trading posts, which player merchants could join in and help dictate, even buying up local shops and setting prices.

You could throw in things for the "hero" types to do involving large monsters in the area, dragons, gryphons, etc, that need to be dealt with before the players can expand into certain areas. You could continue to make heroes and adventurers useful by having random events… gnolls move in and begin trying to take over, attacking trade traffic.. a dragon moves in to a nearby cave on top of a mountain or from a "nearby" (player inaccesable) land to attack the city at times. Quests can be generated to do things to lure the dragon out that the guild group can fight and kill, not to get some "super legendary weapon" from him, but hell just harvest his scales that players can craft for gear or weapons or what not and create cash inflow fo rthe town to keep expanding… so forth and so on

And why not? Think about how many genres of games do JUST THAT. How many people play single player games that are things like harvest moon thats literally "go be a farmer".. why would you think they wouldnt play an mmo if it let them do the same thing but in a world full of other people?

Oh I dont disagree with you at all here. It would take a whole new level of game design to bring something like this to be. But maybe the death of modern MMOs would lead to that. Maybe the current ones all NEED to die so developers realize they need to start creating new systems for these worlds.

Its sort of like the old video game crash from when most of us were barely in kindergarden.. Ive felt like games in general are overdue for another one, but SPECIFICALLY mmos are due for one. Maybe their death would open some eyes and open some doors

except in harvest moon games you aren't just a farmer. You're THE BEST farmer in a place that cares about you. You control the pace at which you farm, unlike in MMOs where it just becomes a second job.

If people wanted to do menial labor and pay someone else for it, they'd just go get another job.

Only because you're the only one basically, you're the PC, the only PC, of course you're the best by default. Its the same thing as the ACrossing series, you're "the best" at everything only because you're the PC so you're the only one doing anything

But what if you had to work at it but got to make a name for yourself with actual people in the process? Rather than a series of set in stone NPC responses based on your actions, you had actual players who paid you, thanked you, appreciated your work, lesser farmers who looked up to you and asked you for advice. Like it or not, there ARE people who would do such things and enjoy them. Sure, you obviously arent one of them, doesnt mean there arent plenty of people who would do them and enjoy earning their place on the server, having guilds of heroes coming to them placing orders and praising their work and so on.

They wouldnt play the vast majority of video games, and/or would ignore the overwhelming majority of content in said games. Face it, there are a shit ton of very popular games that have menial tasks in them, if they dont end up making up much of the game itself. yet people play and love them, they end up with cult followings at times.

Now imagine you take that, and you add in other players all around you.. so you arent being thanked by npc X who is the same in your game, and jimbos game, and marys game, and so on, and paid a static price based on prewritten math. But was some dude a few states away you started trading with one day, and you two work out your own price in an impromptu AH, his guild protects you and the town you live in from invading armies, but cant deal with every little problem, so you can generate "quests" (or "requests") to kill local wildlife thats bothering your farm to employee adventurers that you in turn thank for their help and make friends or something….

You're looking at this purely from your own point of likes/dislikes and how you see certain elements of games. What you need to do is consider a larger group of players who take part in a vast series of genres that, yes, bring in "menial labor" efforts you wouldnt find fun or enjoyable.. but YOU dont have to, thats sort of the whole point I'm trying to make here. You dont want to do that? Then dont. Someone else will and will find it fun. Meanwhile, if you like being "dur heroz" then you can go out and do that, and let jimbo and mary who like farming and building play THAT part of the game… let little timmy over there who could use some social interaction but mostly likes solo games also find a spot in such a game out there wandering the wilds and surviving before returning to town to sell the treasures hes found.. and so on and so on

And what if just like real life, you get barred out of it by pure politics.
That's the real fun of your shit idea.

I want an MMO that's not a third person RPG. It would be cool to have something based on strategy and tactics, like a never ending game of Risk.

Nah, not if you create the game world well enough. Sure you're likely to have competition, but how is that any different from any current mmo where you have some form of communal trading post where people put up goods for sell? In fact, if you make those sorts of things only locally or within a given kingdom (or with large markups for transportation and taxes if selling between kingdoms) you're likely to create many smaller economies, especially if you make travel between kingdoms take longer. FF14 tried to do the whole "boards have taxes between nation states" thing, but because of the terribly small scales of the world and the insane ease of movement, it amounted to practically nothing. It was likely intended to encourage inter-nation trading between members of that state, but again with the ease of movement and general insanely low cost of the taxes the game took, it didnt have any impact.. not to mention that because of the low taxes and game wide market board the majority of shit in the game has its price driven down to basically nothing which ends up discouraging most if not all farming or crafting except at the very very high end (more "end game" treadmill shit)

If you keep the ability to trade long distances harder, then you'll by necessity create trades/crafts at the local level which will produce cheaper products that get to you faster, which will mean incentive for players to work within their kingdom.

Sure "personal politics" will play a part as well. But you could just as easily make, since we're talking about farming or trade crafts, the system limited in how diverse you can make you farm or trade. So for instance, you and 10 other guys may all end up having farms in X kingdom spread around 2-3 smaller towns. But by limiting the diversity of what crops you can grow in any given area, you cant have ONE person providing all the food stuffs the local players would want. Incidentally this would also create incentives for the farming players to work together as to not overlap what they are producing to reduce competition. Sure this may work the OTHER end on politics as well, where in the theoritical farmers all jack up their prices, but this can also be stifled by limiting the land a given farmer can maintain for their account, with surplus land nearby another guy could easily move in and undercut them, or the local players could hire NPCS to do that job that would then charge cost + a RNGed percent of additional fees for labor and profits. The game could be mathed so that this cost would be more than the players could do it for, therefore not ideal for those buying, but it would also be a constant threat against players intending to price fix/gouge other players.

To put the theory into perspective, consider a player can go out and fish and then cook and sell the food in other MMOs, they can do this at a relatively low cost per item and then sell them and still make a nice profit for their investment. However if the prices are to high, players can buy food from NPCs in most places but the prices are generally on the high end of what players are willing to spend, they'll do it if they need to, but they'd prefer to get it cheaper from players who would still make a profit even at lower prices.

Not to mention, if the local farmers are intending to sell to the nearby guild castle/fort/etc thats protecting them, its actually NOT in their best interest to gouge them into bankruptcy but rather just to make their own profit and make friends/allies.

I'll say this again, I'm not a game dev, this is all speculative. But you're automatically assuming BEYOND the worst of all possible situations, and assuming players will do things that in the end will not only spite other players, but cause harm to their own characters. I dont think the majority of players are THAT stupid that they'd cut off their nose to spite their face

Then you're going into the issue that they all need and are required to be perfectly balanced or else you create a spiral of power.

You're obviously not a game dev, because this idea is garbage.

What, exactly, needs to be "perfectly balanced?" Obviously any game needs balance in any important aspects.. but what is it you're saying has to be balanced, nay balanced PERFECTLY, lest it undermine the entire game?

You have left your response incredibly vague here. So please, do elaborate

You're saying you want decentralized power, which means that one area can't be flat out "better" than the others.

In your shit game, lets say corn is used more often than wheat and sells for more. Both corn and wheat are grown in different areas, but corn is 100% better.
Now lets say Government A only lets certain people grow corn, and because they have complete rule over the area the economy is placed in the hands of Government A and it's chosen, while the assholes stuck growing wheat can't even start to compete because they're short on money.

This would be player driven for one, so you cant just say one will sell for more necessarily. Secondly, econ 101 champ, supply and demand. If wheat is less profitable and players all attempt to go into corn, supply of corn will exceed demand and competition will dictate that prices lower, making it less profitable. On the other side of the equation, if wheat production slows to a crawl but is still necessary for recipes, then as the supply cannot keep up with the demand, prices will rise. Its in players own best interests to work together in their local area to ensure there isnt insane overlap in production thus fucking all their individual profits.

Am I really being forced to explain basic economics to someone on a damn chan board?

There would be limits to what they can do. I wouldnt give them blanket tyrannical powers like that, it would easily lead to abuses like you said. I WOULD however think letting them levy taxes on different things (note: money gained in taxes wouldnt be able to go into PLAYERS pockets except through salaries, tax money would go to improving the kingdom, paying for troops, etc, thus destroying their own economy through high taxes wouldnt benefit an individual, it would only hurt them) would be useful.

Take your example again, lets say wheat is needed, but its profit margins are lower and people arent growing it, and instead are trying to shove each other out of the corn market for higher profits. The local government could levy slightly higher taxes on corn, and lower taxes on wheat, thus shifting profit margins to encourage farmers to produce intelligently for the kingdom rather than trying to dickfuck each other and the kingdom over for their own gain.

Again, basic economics. And no, it doesnt have to be "perfectly balanced" and require some sperg micromanaging everything 24/7, as long as things are within a certain margin of error, players wont notice, just like people dont notice in real life.. consider, do you think much about local sales tax when you go out to eat? I know that nearby the sales taxes varies between 8 and 10%, yet I rarely consider this when going out to eat or going shopping unless I'm going to be buying lots of stuff. Why? Because its not really much of a difference. However, local STORES and their management DO think about this and adjust prices and such as needed (mostly small non-chain stores mind you) to encourage people to shop there and not htink their prices are to high when they see the bill due to the higher sales tax.

In game, with players discussing what sales and what doesnt and for what prices, when you get it within say 10-15% of each other in profit, players are going to stop paying that basically any attention and just do what works (ie: someone will farm wheat, someone will farm corn). Again, consider in something like WoW (I use it because of its large player base), currently there are two herbs that sell for RIDICULOUS prices compared to other herbs for this expansion on most servers. Yet, people still go out and gather the lesser ones in bulk and sell them. Why? Because its still profitable, and theres less competition much of the time both for the herbs themselves and on the AH. Sure, the X number of seconds you spend picking Y or Z flower is the same, while the price varies a damn good bit, but both make money and players will go farm each.

Sure, its an mmo, and they trend towards player min/maxing, but there IS a limit to how stupid/greedy people will get over it. Add in to that the ability for local governments to encourage or discourage certain production, as well as basic rules of economics… and wham, it balances itself out

Got another question?

Your long winded ranting on the lack of player agency rings true, but how do you solve it at the scale for a successful MMO. Also you're assuming a level of competence in both players and developers that frankly isn't there. has a point, how do you make the menial bullshit fun and engaging?

You think you have a lot of good ideas because you've watched .hack and SAO but you haven't the faintest idea on how to properly execute them. You're another idea guy with zero development experience who wants to make an MMO. Take pieces of your grand idea, build small experimental games out of them. Find what's fun and what isn't. Then you can start putting the pieces back together into an MMO.

On the players part it will flesh itself out over time, "all work out in the wash" as it were. Experimentation will eventually get players to the point they can manage things.

As for devs.. well.. thats another story. We've all seen how incompetent most MMO devs are, again I point to WoW for this but just look at how badly basic single target dps is imbalanced in that game with as much as a 30% gap from top to bottom making some specs if not classes completely worthless outside of a few gimmicks.

Which is another reason current MMORPGs need to die off first I suspect. The current round of braindead developers working on tired and worn out shit needs to just fuck right off before anything new can progress.

The thing is, most of this is already done. I point you again to the massive amount of popular genres that revolve around all sorts of these different aspects, from hearts of iron to SDV and everything in between, shits done, tested, people like it and play it. Just gotta put it into practice in an MMO. It would require a damn near massive undertaking though and a lot of foresight. But as I've stated, I'm not a game dev, so creating an actual game out of it is beyond my current skill set. I'd like to think I'm "worldly" enough to consider lots of aspects and how they'd interact, but yes, you have a point, I've not "done" any of this in practice. Which goes back to why I've said, its all speculation/theory.

At least you got what I was saying though, yes, player agency is the jist of it, there is none, and room for none, in current MMORPG design. And no amount of "tweaking" the current design is going to get us there. "unique" quests, "unique" titles, etc etc, none of this matters when the "endgame" of these things is ALWAYS the same and when the games always allow you to shift seemlessly from collecting bear asses to being the hero of the universe

Meaning you have no real faith in his idea but think it sounds good on paper.

also
Sounds like you missed it buddy, if wheat is greatly outshined in every way by corn, say something only corn can do like Vegetable Oil making then there isn't any regulation. It becomes a monopoly at that point and as it's a required resource, you really have no control over how much the market spirals out of control.

Also you bitch about wanting player agency, but you remove the only real thing a player government could do. which is pass pointless litigation and promote a inner circle.

So what makes an MMO good, according to you? FFXIV should fit your criteria, based on your post. Granted, your criterias are very fucking loose.

You still dont understand basic economics. And you still assume the game would be designed so poorly that X item would be needed in such vast quantities compared to item Y, and that economic laws would break down entirely and despite there being a market for an item, even a niche one, no one would take it up, or that magically this wouldnt effect the price said items would go for

Youre trying, and failing, to poke holes in something because you fundamentally misunderstand market economics… thats your fault, not mine

As for "pointless litigation and oligarchies," these things can still exist to a point. For example, the leadership of the kingdom could decide how far out to send their troops.. if a city starts going rogue they could pull troops away and let them suffer without protection. It could also be required that they'd need to approve expansion into new areas, you could have other mechanics that offer buffs or debuffs in a given area based on what funding they decide to provide towns or what "government works" they decide to do in an area. Imagine for example, that "rested XP" isnt a guaranteed thing for being "in a city," but requires an inn.. well the city you're working in doesnt HAVE an inn, the government could choose to build one and run it, or they can ignore your town and just leave you needing to treck to other cities to log out for rested xp. Or hospitals/medics could be a thing and provide services to the town, but that require government approval, and they could do something that improves the town.. and lack of any of it could lead the town to be prone to diseases/illness which could spread even among the player characters, and so on and such

It would give the "kingdom leaders" more to manage, among troops, taxes, expansion, protection, etc etc, without giving them total dickfuckery powers over everyone else.

Thats how a human driven economy works, im sorry i dont want to be mean but you have to understand how economy works.

Also following this idea of a playerdriven MMO, i would like if instead of having a linear progress : Lvl1- fag to LVL100 - UBERFAG, it could branch jobs in different trees, for example :

The game has 4 "trees", Civic tree, military tree, naval tree and lawless tree

The civic tree is for the players that dont engage in the military but still make up the backbone for it, crafters and merchants who supply the armies and towns and make profit to grow, levels would not mean much for them so maybe they "level up" by making profits, and having money, Ej: Make 40000g and have a reserve of 10000g stored, so a player might level down if he loses a lot of money doing stupid shit, and make him take risks much like a warrior only that he would lose money instead of his gear.

Then the military would be like most of the games and be a race to being the best warrior.

Then the naval would work for an mmo thats big enough to have a sea, you could start as a mere sailor working in some other player's ship, fighting when fight happens and earning your pay so you can buy a ship yourself and "level up" to captain, then a fleet and become an almiral, and losing your ships would make you "level down" so it would make players think before engaging and actually make strategy matter a lot more than just zerg rushes.

and the lawless tree would be the most interesting, many games have "bad guys" but players often dont get to be those bad guys or are limited in that area, what if the mmo had a path to take where your objective wouldnt be "help other people" but instead "Help yourself", and the only way to level up and hire more bandits to help you would be stealing and looting from other players.

On a personal note : I dont want to be a retard and go all "idea guy", but ideas need to be discussed because who knows who could be hearing, criticism and idealism both need to exits so progress can be made, i dont mind if people have a problem with my shitty ideas, i want to hear it so i can think of a solution or an alternative, god damn i wish i could had the fucking 500 mil destiny had so i could make a good MMO , even if i make mistakes and somehow players crash it into the grownd it would be like the first flight of the wright brothers and start a new age of player driven MMO's instead of the semi-interactive quest fests that are now

Also, reaching diferent benchmarks in jobs should give permanent buffs to players to encourage players to change jobs, like an ex lvl90 farmer that becomes a lvl1 adventurer gets a 20% more food per food item because he knows how it works, or a previous lvl 90 adventurer that becomes a blacksmith can make weapons that do 2% more damage against his most killed mob because he understands how to kill those things and so he makes a niche of "bear" killers who buy his weapons because of the buff and because he was a previous bearkiller.

Actual sandbox game, lets you kill other players with very few "safe havens", has content besides grinding levels/gear (like being able to play minigames with other players or something.), has crafting/life skills that are engaging to do and actually mean something and could fill a good part of your play time if you'd want to dedicate time to it.
No action houses.

That's about what I'd consider a good base for an MMO that isn't complete dogshit without going into too much detail about specific gameplay mechanics.

My standards are pretty fucking loose because I know there's nothing like that at the moment and probably won't be for some time.

Sooo… a straight dude?

That's implying it was ever alive in the first place. MMO RPGs have never really been good or worthwhile experiences, people rail on and on about how their specific flavor of shit tedium was better than the newer flavor of shit tedium but at the end of the day MMOs are all incredibly dull wastes of time. If you crave social interaction in your games, you can play literally any cooperative or competitive game on the market and wind up with better people who stick around longer because their life isn't tied to a single game.

Sandbox mmos are the only ones that can work.

Even those are shit, just as bad as theme park MMOs. Only blind nostalgiafags think otherwise.

You do understand you are saying Ultima online was shit which means the only thing shit here is your taste.

Ultima online wasnt really that much of a sandbox, nothing you did mattered in the world

Yes, we really need the next notch to shit out a game out of a bunch of butchered ideas he found on an imageboard.

I actually just started downloading the free trial of this game.

Anything I should know? Is it worth the price for just the default game without the expansions?

This too, I played Ultima online, nothing I did mattered. It's just as bad as those theme park MMOs you hate so much, except it let other players kill you at will. Originally, anyway, then a lot of shit became PVP via consent only, so that stopped being a factor too.

Which isn't what makes a sandbox.
Holy fuck you niggers have no idea what you are talking about.

Sandboxes by your definition just means it's a game that gives you zero direction. Wow, how great. Shoving shit in your face or not doesn't make the MMO experience any less or more shit. At it's core, MMO gameplay is the very essence of boring tedium, carried solely by the fact that you can interact with other players. Which is something you can achieve by playing a better, more rewarding experience that has a multiplayer system attached.

Where did I give that, you sound like a confrontational little faggot who just wants to argue a point.
Which isn't the case if you actually played an MMO before WOW.

Why are you still posting its clear you have no idea what you are talking about.

Apparently the animations are terrible, so be prepared for that I guess. I don't know much about the game itself, though. I remember hearing a bit about it back around 2010 and seeing a neat trailer, but that's about it. It kinda went under the radar.

Because you, and everyone like you, is wrong and stupid.

I remember being your age, its okay bud.

I dont care really, fuck it let notch be the jew who does it first but soon good versions of it will follow, minecraft was the first and was shit but there are some good games that follow the same logic and are actually pretty good, eventually the thing minecraft was meant to be will become reality

😂👌 Ok buddy i guess its good to have you here so this doesn't become a circle jerk

The very definition of a sandbox is that the entire world can be modified into something different or reverted back into its starting state, ultima sadly doesent allow you to nuke dungeons or make new ones, the mob spawns dont deplete and you cant destroy towns or stuff to make way for new buildings, its not a theme park like wow but its still holds the player hands a lot

I know, but if we let players do whatever they want, wont it end in a massive destruction? maybe, depends on how difficult is breaking shit and building it

The definition of a sandbox is that it gives you tools and an environment and allows you to create its own fun.
This is why Morrowind has sandbox elements, why Dwarf Fort has sandbox elements, why most roguelikes have sandbox elements.
Not because you actually create shit.

I'll probably stop play mmo's completely after my WoW time runs out next month until something new happens with the genre. I'm sick and tired of tab targeting/hotbar mmo's by this point and the only sandbox mmo worth a damn is fucking EvE. Be it that I have to wait 30 years for a fully immersive mmo in the style of Log Horizon, SAO or any other flavor of the season anime with mmo plot.

Work in progress i guess

Yes, you missed the Black Desert boat by around 10 months and Legion is tanking even harder than last expansion. I guess FFXIV is still alive if you're desperate. Genre's pretty dead and it should stay dead.

...

WoW tried that in either Wrath or Cata, not sure anymore.
You had quests that changed the shape of the zone that you were in.
It was instanced for everyone who had the same zone, but they were cut off from everyone who had a different progession status.
It worked in WoW thanks to the large playerbase, doubt you could successfully implement it in smaller MMOs.

I wish RF Online could be remade. Kicking Cora and Accretian ass with your tricky manlet was pretty fun.

Anyone have dirt on this guy that we can throw out on him?

Give Black Desert Online a try. It's a bit of a learning curb at first, but it accommodates just about every player style out there… PvE, PvP, guild wars, crafting, world bosses, character design & stats, horse breeding, LOL… Even interior design. The quests for the most part are pretty engaging. You just don't have private instances. GW2 is still pretty popular too.

Except trading. It does not allow you to trade.

The most fun I ever had with an MMO ws Aika online. Instead of factions like WoW there were enemy servers that acted sort of like alternate dimensions that you were constantly at war with. There were few enough players that going to another server to grief farmers could actually have an effect on the server vs server battles.

EVE is the closest to perfect MMO as far as mechanics and sandbox goes but the gameplay itself is concentrated shit. So no, there's no good MMO.

Only a resurgence in Sandbox MMOs will revive the genre.

The Korean version of BDO is fine, the western release is dogshit due to SERVER designated pricing and the inability to freely trade.

Furthermore the only thing that impacts the endgame is combat, every profession is utterly useless compared to having one more high tier combatant. Due to the way combat behaves latency trumps anything else between equally geared players aswell. Don't get me wrong, it's fun enough for a little while and I really enjoyed the trading and node management, but it's not worth it beyond that. If they'd just given us the korean version instead of this double-dipping nonsense that is the western release it would've been a game I'd actually recommend to other people.

Phantasy Star Online 2.

Reminder stats used to be randomized on level up, more hidden stats, and Korean crafting didn't consume energy. Truly the western release was absolute garbage. Plus the western game sits on current Korean balance without adding shit like awakenings.

That idea about mapping could be an interesting system. There could be a "wilderness" area in the game that generates maps of a given size based on a seed code, there can - but won't always be - rare resources/mobs in these areas that can't be found anywhere else. People can then explore these areas and either get the items themselves or use some kind of mapping system that would list all of the desirable items on a map that they discover, then allow them to sell it to players who don't want to dig for them themselves.

Shards Online
Chronicles of Elyria
Camelot Unchained
Dark and Light

but Black Desert Online was a good game before devs went full retard with P2W

Yea looking good, mate.

I miss SWG it had a good mmo feel to it, but shut down for that trash tortonic.

I miss my house and guild city

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Galaxies

I miss the days when you could literally start families with other players in MMO's, including adopting other players which would turn them into loli's.

It seems to me mmo's should move away from static quests, and dead worlds and into dynamic worlds composed of components like a go game that can result in emergent complexity.

I've 'played' many mmos but I get bored so fucking easily. The quests feel like work. and don't matter, and If that's the case why not just study/do homework instead.

No, mmo's need to be hardcore, and the world needs to be able to be destroyed.

Drop players into a world and let them make their own way. Hardcore too brutal for some players? Ok, then have characters that die reincarnate in a new reset world (new server) with other characters that have died the same number of times. Create a ladder system with the servers.

Then have a world with some meaningful PVP conflict. The focus of developers should then be in providing new pieces for players to play with rather than minor scripted quests. The developers could instead develop potential events that can be triggered when certain elements are in place.

Honestly I'm sad the jews screwed up EQ Next because it seemed to include some of these elements.

At the risk of being bullied, the problem with MMORPGs might be that it's just still too early for them before the VR age truly takes off. Yeah there were fun games once upon a time but there was a lot of novelty for it and online play was mostly still just a fantasy back in those days outside niche MMOs. Nowadays technically anything with online multiplayer can be called an MMO and a very large number of games have an online multiplayer option now.
A lot of people ask what the appeal of MMORPGs including myself at one time because we mostly play single player console games but once you play one you can begin to understand the reasons why. One is immersion, something the best devs and single players want in their games hence all the AAAs trying their best with amazing aka realistic graphics and other features that somehow enhance the immersion of the game. The other is the social component. Playing with yourself can get boring obviously so you can either have fun and make buds in the game or just plain fuck with people by griefing players or whatever else because you were an arsehole who loved to troll fuck with or jew others like that. A most important aspect even hardcore MMORPGers keep forgetting, the RPG in MMORPG is the roleplaying, which a lot of people normalfag casuals will whine is gay but that's because they're a bunch of casuals who never played a tabletop game before and don't know how to RP properly to have fun with others or troll others.
Modern MMORPGs (and modern internet culture if I can say it) being dead I would blame most entirely to the rise of social media and smartphones and the fact that kids these days think they're too cool to roleplay. Oh I can't forget the min-maxing retards either. MMORPGs used to be mostly about socialising, trolling, and fun but now it's like some kind of race all the damn time where autistic faggots need their high numbers and perfectly powerful lootz rather than just looking cool playing whatever you thought was fun fucking around like in Maplestory or pissing other players off for fun like in Ultima Online days like where you'd talk to other players using olde English to fuck with them or proudly display their severed heads in the most trollful ways. I guess I should add one more thing I noticed that make modern MMORPGs unbearable to play is all the faggots bringing real life shit into the game. There used to be a policy about that, same with no girls on the internets. Now it's just garbage like SJW shit where it doesn't fucking belong or how their girlfriend he just invited to play with your group is cucking him while he cries over the mic for everyone in the guild/clan to groan about.
If you want to talk about the games themselves, they're mostly just the same shit over and over again. At best they can refine existing clones like what FFXIV did with WoW/EQ but in the end there's nothing really to get excited about, nothing game changing, until VR MMORPGs are perfected. At that point, MMORPGs might just in fact dominate VR as a platform as MMORPGs from the earliest days seem grandmaster tailored made for VR and everyone knows it. All we can do now is wait, user.