Nasuverse

What are you talking about? He shows up in pretty much every Fate game. :^)

Where is planet crushing pussy lady? They need her physics defying vaginal muscles!

This must be one of those reasons why no one wants to localize that game.

You bet.

Yeah, since it's only ((lightly)) based on Extra, and will actually be based on Extra Last Encore which is airing sometime this year

Also all anyone seems to talk about is Illya, how can people ignore the original loli of the Nasuverse and the best

I'll join whichever side has Artoria.

MY KING

...

Because everyone forgot about Tsukihime.
Including Nasu. Fuck Fate.

Already proven that there is.
Rider NTRs Tomo

There are only three men figures in history to come within a hair's breadth of literally conquering all the world: Alexander, Genghis Kahn, and Attila

It's over.

...

Technically Nasu is just an idiot (what's new?) because two of those are the same person.

I hope they don't ruin Nero's character from Extra. She was the most compelling (despite being written with a very schizophrenic pen in the hands of a man who has the historical and theological knowledge of a second grader).

Yeah nah, you're a cunt.

...

Ah, yes, the VN which has the best ending as somehow not the True End and has the "True End" be a melodramatic affair despite something very obvious being possible to make it the best ending - which, in fact, the best ending does involve.

She was certainly the most interesting Saber not that it takes much of an effort to be distinct from another Arturia clone but to say she was the most compelling from Extra? Nah, fuck you cunt.

Aside from a couple moments with your servant and one really well written and executed character notSakura, the game is an infantile mess and filled with memes and references to other games.

The Metal Gear reference alone was enough to put me off.

Also, again, Nasu shows his unbelievably dwarfed (and willingly ignorant) knowledge of theology and more by the stupid concepts he hamfistedly introduces while simultaneously destroying all characterization built up in the earlier installment - rather like the Heaven's Feel route.

For an example, just look up the backstory of that broad with the planet eating vagina. Also look up what happens to Dan.

Also it's a cringe fest of ecchi and dumb concepts, like an edge version of a Compile Heart title.

Most compelling from the playable servants in Extra, I mean.

Look, I like Caster more but her character was pretty simple in comparison. There were no subtle nuances to her persona and nothing very deep to consider regarding her past.

Perhaps the only really significant thing about her was that she is literally, factually, a deity - well, more like an aspect of a deity - simply limiting herself to play the role of a servant which is hysterical since having her at the protagonist's side would otherwise make the protagonist Shin Megami Tensei-teir in strength.

Like I said, though, she's not a complicated character. Neither is Archer (though he was better than his original version in Fate/Stay Night).

Nero gets the award by default, really.
They expanded a lot on Caster, though, and made her character way more intricate in Extra CCC. Her development/route is probably the only reason I'd tolerate playing through that title.

Knowing Nasu you'll soon get lost in all the jargon and exposition, but if you DO play Extra then, knowing Nasu again, you'd get lost in all the abruptly new jargon and retcons.

So yes, you can.

That's not true. Why do you lie like this?
Considering the multi-master, multi-route approach it's obviously taking after the Extra games and parallel universes again, because Nasu's gotta Nasu

CCC was that bad huh?
Now that you put it like that I can see where you're coming from. I need to get around to playing Extra again just to spend more time with Sabre.

I don't think caster is quite as flat as you believe. for example she presents herself as an energetic girl who is in love with her master but she is also quite quite bloodthirsty. her cannon alignment is Neutral Evil

That makes me feel less bad about the fact that I'll never get to play CCC I guess. Unless someone fantranslates it.

...

If Melty Blood's story is canon, wouldn't that make the good ending canon anyway?
Also, besides being ~800 years old, was there any statement on how old Arcade is supposed to look?

Which team has the most sluts?

Fox is a prostitute. Saber supposedly knows well how to please men.

Melty Blood follows the supposed Satsuki good end route. That's why she is alive.

Yeah it is, have you not seen Melty Blood?

Don't you not fight Yumizuka in Arc's route? I only remember killing her in Far-Side routes.

Arcueid is as old as anyone cares. I think she's supposed to look like mid-20s but I don't think Nasu ever made a statement in the VN or interviews.

I'm glad /a/ keeps you scum behind the wall.

Sacchin route NEVER!

Good. Leave her alone, she's too good for this world to have a route. Let her hang out with Sion and be at peace.

Well Archer has already been gone through thoroughly in Unlimited Blade Works route so what else is there to do? This isn't even EMIYA it's just a cooler soldier boy Shirou who's contracted to the Moon instead of the Counter Force.

She disappears in the Near Side routes never to be seen again. Isn't is sad?

People still care about /a/?

dropped

sader is moe

But they outright said that it would be based more on Second to Last Encore, so hopefully Last Encore starring Casko in CCC will also air later this year

This is an alien.

please don't bully giant aliens

You are right. /a/ is dead and terrible. You should never ever go there.

Sure thing, autist.

Satsuki outright dies in both Arcueid and Ciel's route at the hands of Shiki. She survives in her theoretical true end, which sets stage for Melty Blood. But then, we'll never know because Nasu is a fucking bastard who won't release the Tsuki remake with the Sacchin route.

Also, Arc in the original timeline is millennia old. Not nearly as much as the first humans, since Gaia made the pact with Type-Moon to cull the suddenly booming human population. So came rise of the True Ancestors, and then the various Dead Apostles they spawned in their wake. Arc was made to handle/eliminate the True Ancestors that had fallen completely to their bloodlust and become Demon Lords (the only real demons on the planet).

Of course, none of this can be revisited because it would establish that Fate's various magics are not the dominating power, and that would set the fanboys crying.

Gaia should've used Primate Murder instead of vampires lol.

It's not like Fate is written well enough to be the dominating anything. It's so bad.

Where did you see this? I thought Last Encore was a typical cash-grab anime adaptation.

If Nasu is seriously going to throw out two games' worth of character development and world-building just to hijack it with a vidya sequel to an anime adaptation of a visual novel/game then-

No wait. No, that sounds like something Nasu would do.
I AM SERIOUSLY FURIOUS IF THIS IS TRUE

I can't tell, are you an autistic Nepfag who thinks Nasu's plagiarizing Compile Heart, or are you an autist who hates Compile Heart?

Extella, Last Encore, and Grand Order are all part of Nasu's rewriting how the world works.

Presumably it's leading to some bigger project but Nasu could just be bored with the franchise and is making it as wild as he wants because fuck the police.

It's just a comparison, mate. Relax. It feels like an edge version of a typical ecchi CH title.
Fairy Fencer F was fun, despite the lesbien, and I'm genuinely looking forward to Black Dark Rose Valkyrie actually.

Off topic, but are there any news on the Heaven's Feel movie? I just want to know when we're getting the Mind of Steel OVA.

Couldn't tell.
FUCK RIGHT OFF OR PROVE IT.
THERE'S NO WAY THEY WOULD BE THAT UPFRONT ABOUT IT.

...

...

This aggravates me so much I had to come back for seconds.

To think, this hack is the guy the other hack who wrote Umineko had namedropped as an inspiration (as a writer, not for the story) during an interview.

I doubt it. I very much doubt it.
Fixed that for you.

It's amazing what VN writers get away with and yet they are still upheld as good authors in Moonruneland.

Cute.

Holy fuck. And I thought Neptunia's lesbian propaganda was disgusting.

user, the fact you think the game is good in ANY way is proof that you need to wake the fuck up.

Begone c/u/ckfag.

Eh, it has the nep gameplay right? So even then if it has /u/ I still wouldn't like it because that bland excuse of a jrpg. That and I'm starting to get tired of Tsunako's art style.
If anything, half /u/'s the people who'd defend it just because of that and then do so again on their tumblr blogs too.

I liked the game because it was the best CH game up to that point in terms of story, graphics and (apart from this abomination) characters.

Black Rose Valkyrie will be great, though, and looking back I think I liked FFF because of what it would lead to more than anything else. BRV looks great (from what little we see of it) and there doesn't seem to be any "LOL LET'S RUB OUR UTERI TOGETHER" nonsense.

I always liked the idea behind Compile Heart: JRPGs with waifus and darkly interesting stories.
FFF is more whimsical than anything, like the Neptunia, but a certain point in the game gets twisted a bit and turns the plot on its head.
I got into CH games with Agaress War 2, but the way to get the true end annoyed me and the graphics and combat were painful.

I am awake.

...

Wow you're such a free thinker, breaking free from those faggots at /u/ by being a contrarian!
You're still masturbating to lesbians like the betamax you are. Have some self-respect, you self-emasculating fuck up.

Record of Agarest War DID look like absolute shit, I'll give you that much.
However, if you give yuri "games" ANYTHING, from "it makes my dick hard cuz i wanna be cuckolded by a lesbian" to "it has good gameplay," you're contributing to the downfall of your fellow men. You wouldn't compliment, say, a (((Double Fine))) game, right? Same thing, don't think of our enemy as anything but the filth they are.
Get MORE awake.

wasn't that how it always was?

Dude how BIG did they make Alexander?

Nah, our /u/'s pretty cool.

Why is Attila's sword made out of candy?

Actually it's made out of Alien space technology rainbows

because nasu

That's kind of cool.
It actually looks pretty well animated and seems look like it's actually doing damage. When I saw it split, I thought it was going to look like the whip move set from Dynasty Warriors and only look like it was pushing your enemies rather than hurting them.

WELP! I JUST SPOILED MYSELF WITH THE ENDING(S) AND IT SUCKS

Briefly:
No Altera ending, cause Altera dies
Saber ending is death - where YOU die
Caster seems like a peaceful ending
As for the side-characters:
No real depth for their endings, just various flavors of "servant rivalry" or "laugh gag"
Arturia stuffs her face
True End(?) is:
I–r–s final boss. Saber and Caster apparently come to an agreement and you keep both. Also loli Attila for some reason. No one else appears.

I'm not one for harem endings and I certainly preferred the "Choose Your Servant/Route" style of the Extra games to this game's "Complete All Routes to get True Route" approach.

Don't spoil yourselves if you care. I'll get it just to finish off the Fate Extra "trilogy" as it were and because I like musou games.

That said, I know I'm missing out on gargantuan amounts of story, but this seems like a let down from what I expected.

Although there are scenes like this which might make it worth it.

Well Marvelous isn't KoeiTecmo so I'd imagine they wouldn't resort to that sort of thing. I suspected something similar to Kai's moveset in Samurai Warriors 4, actually, but I do like what they did with it.

They succeeded in making a rainbow blade look interesting.

Not big enough. Dude's jacked

A board dedicated to an anti-man fetish is cool by your standards.
Whatever shithole you came from, go back there with all your other /u/nuchs and never return.

jesus christ

Indeed, that's pretty amazing.

Do we know how bad the vita's downgrade is when compared to the Bloodborne station?

I love fate dont get me wrong but nasu needs to stop fucking milking it so hard and work on his othet projects

Nobody fucking wants it outside of bandwagoning c/u/cks. Why Nasu.
The hell do you mean a trilogy? I expected the movie, a Sparks Liner High OVA, and maybe a Mind of Steel OVA if we're lucky

anime tiddies

agreed

What the hell is going on in there?

From what I've seen it's not so bad

Foxy Lady makes a remark about intimacy since they are sleeping together

Protag chooses dialogue option C (where he implies he's cool with going further)

Tamomo goes hard with her crazy

There is only one best ending. Look at the pic in the post you responded to.

Same.

He's basically signed papers while Sony pays him since Kara no Kyoukai and Zero

...

It's called Gold Team

I just don't get the appeal of this series outside of mid tier at best waifus and some /u/ content.

Is there any reason for someone who didn't like Fate/stay night that much to bother with any of the new stuff?

oh

The world building that never gets anywhere because Nasu keeps retconning and adaptions are slower than Tiger.

Depends of what it is that bothered you.

If it was SEIBAH and History/Myth rape (Pic related, It is Edison.) then no, if it was the sex scenes and/or COOKING then probably yes since that is toned down or outright absent in the other stuff.

is it really rape if its an improvement?

Kill yourself

Vampires > Servants

You mean Powerlevels? Yeah, but Servants are more marketable, more exploitable, and got more PLOT DEVICE potential, so they get all the focus.

How is the Tsukihime remake going anyway?

So basically gone is one of the few things I was okay with. Good to know. The History/Myth rape wasn't THAT bad (Other than "Lel, saber had a futa dick and was raped by her sister to create the ebil knight that killed Arthur") but I will admit, the Nero bit was a pretty damn stupid.

Why not both?

Checking these digits

I'm not sure what to feel about this. I thought after a point they just made everyone chicks or something and called it a day. My only exposure to this stuff is a few hours in f/sn, melty and the first episode of zero.

I think it's gone the way of Hisui.

So the best, then?

Its probably the most clever design they've done for a servant. Shows off how he is more legend then real but because of the power of propaganda his power level is still ridiculously high, even though he was a complete fraud of a man in reality.

No, dead like her VA. Or Kohaku, one of them died recently.

Checked.
Makes one think you how strong Hitler would be, the guy massed even more Legends and misconceptions around him in even shorter amount of time due the idea of him becoming a "Standardized Evil Overlord" in fiction muddying History.

If only they had the balls to do it.

Fate extella 2 confirmed because of true ending

>In my opinion, a second one wouldn't be a wise decision, yes the game end in some kind of cliffhanger but this game seems really…

SPOILERS FOR THE STORY, LADS! GET IN ON THIS (but don't ruin the game for anyone else unless u r fagit)

As for if the story of the game follows the original game, the answer is yes:
>Events of Extra happened with Hakuno contracted to both Nero AND Tamamo (Nero as main, Tamamo as sub servant), but as mentioned in the game Tamamo somehow got separated from Hakuno and Nero (she says Nero kicked her off a bridge or something) and so it was only Nero and Hakuno VS Twice.

So it's a good ol' Nasu retcon. Okay.
Also rather breaks the entire setting and rules for the original game for something like this to happen, but making rules only to then break them is Nasu's style.

Spoiler Pastbin: pastebin.com/9Ai1Tg9i

Satsuki only outright dies in Akiha, Hisui and Kohakus routes though. In Arcueids and Currys it's implied that Satsuki was in the Hotel when Nero attacked or Curry/Arcueid got her. Shiki never sees her in those two routes/

The grail war was actually a method of choosing a champion to fight Velber for Mooncell, and the Regalia gives that champion all of its power.
WHAT?

Does Nasu proofread his own work or does he just not care? How is this remotely tenable to the entire purpose of the Moon Cell in Extra? Why did Twice never mention this, despite poring over all the knowledge of the Moon Cell for nearly countless Grail War cycles?

Why did BB never mention this?

Why is this new big bad I guess Velber is a Type? coming out of NOWHERE and, all of a sudden, is the center-point of the entire Extra universe?

>You know how the first game had this plot about some shmuck getting caught in a tournament of death where the major factions of the world are all either seeking the power of the Grail to reshape the Earth or are trying to stop the scion of the Harway Family (essentially the Rothschilds) from attaining the one thing that would bring the Rothschilds Harways absolute and eternal control?

So, spoiler again
So yeah Tamamo route ending means Hakuno never dies, and since Mooncell's jamming is working Velber won't be attacking Earth either. Details from later routes make it out to be a good ending with no repercussions for Tamamo and soul Hakuno at all.

So in Saber's Route: We are completely paralyzed for centuries, hearing Nero but unable to respond.
In Altera's Route: Everything and everyone dies.
In Tamamo's Route: You and your waifu live forever at peace and no one suffers.
Well that's not unbalanced or anything…

Turns out you were right.

>By the way, I saw Nasu's blog posts. It's stated that Extella is the start of a new series.

Hard to do that when Hisui's dead.

Who?

I heard Grand Order has started to hint that they gonna retcon Avenger/ANGRY MAN JEW's backstory too.

Casters tend to get the end of the shit stick when it comes to love, so i think it evens out, and Saber did get the "Canonical Servant" slot too, not that that should surprise anyone.

Yeah, it is easy to forget but she is much more vicious then people give her credit for, she just happens to be incredibly focused on loving her master, so you (as her Master) get a different view.

Do you even Tsukihime?

Why are you even asking? If you need to ask, then the answer has to be no.

I suppose so, but I just hate that we couldn't get another Extra-style "Different Good Ending per Servant".

Well, Extra really only had one ending come to think of it. CCC did it differently…mostly.

Its going to be three movies covering heavens feel instead of one

Yeah that sounds about right

You haven't seen the gameplay, have you? It's menu management overload. Top that with cowboy teens winning war for adults once again and overdesigned floopy weapons and it's a recipe for mediocre.

This is the shit that vexes me. The construct of who could qualify for the Throne of Heroes was extremely specific and every spinoff bar Extra has taken a massive shit on it. Suddenly every fuckhead that wasn't worth their legend is a Servant, as if Nasu suddenly started handing out participation medals instead of sticking to his guns. I hate this shit. I hate it more because aside of maybe Apocrypha, most of them have no genuine PURPOSE that's not penis waving and fanfic writing their favorite history subjects.

Like, I can grant there is plenty that's questionable about FSN or FZ, but they have a story focus. There's something to tell and it's engaging and neat and sticks to its own set rules 95% of the time. I don't want to throw Apocrypha in that boat cause I haven't read it. Extra gets half a pass (FUCK your faceless blankslate MC even if you think you were being clever about it, Nasu). The rest of this garbage is money/mythos/history masturbation.

Yeah, I got that signal mixed. Nero destroys her & the other hotel guests in Near Side, she gets double-Shiki'd in Far Side, all three times (except that one time where she actually turned Shiki into a Dead).

SEE THIS SHIT RIGHT HERE MAKES ME QUIT THIS BULLSHIT NASU'S SELLING.

Can any anons guess what came in the mail today?

Your dragon dildo

I'm going to cum in all the Sabres and you can't stop me.

Bzzzt

Good luck, they're still multiplying

Caster figma is just there for size comparison purposes
Sucks that you can only play as Umu at the beginning though

I'm having trouble trying to understand the true route. So, a big part of it is that the MC at some point had Nero and Tamamo and that Nero kicked Tamamo off a bridge? That sounds like something that would happen in reverse. Another question is that how did Tamamo not find her way back or just die alone in the arena? In Extra she has serious durability problems.

I'm sure the answer is some hackery finagling with the rules of the arena or something. Might have something to do with the MC being three people: Body, Mind & Soul

hory shit

SPOIL THAT RIGHT NOW
What is the point of breasts if they have no nipples? Where does the milk go in those glands?

MC has Avalon

Fuck all the retcons typemoon goes through. This series is just here to rape your wallet with saberface clones and unstable plot and it works.

How many different Saibah in this one?

Isn't that all she's good for?

Fate/Zerofag detected. The franchise began as an eroge full of chuunishit where people fuck to absorb magic.

Why are these fags so damn common? They are fucking everywhere, always talking about how good Fate/Zero is and that the rest of series shouldn't exist.

Sounds like fun times ahead.

(Checked)
Is it heavy?

LEN A CUTE
CUUUUUUUUTE

normalfags love edgelord shit

Does the game have pantsu shots?

Fate/Zero had a lot of great moments and narrative turns…which were almost always horrifically marred by Nasu's inability to be subtle about anything and instead have his characters vomit every internal conflict, exposition, and thematic consideration.

You can practically hear the whole world grind to a halt so that we could hear how Emiya doesn't like servants and how Saibah's trying her best and how he stole her chance to have an honorable fight but he doesn't care and sort of did it on purpose out of spite and that's so bad and WE GET IT
WE GET IT NASU, YOU HACK
THIS IS ENG.101-tier WRITING

LET THE AUDIENCE INFER SOMETHING
DON'T TREAT THEM LIKE BRAIN-DEAD VEGETABLES THAT NEED YOU TO EXPLAIN
EVERY SINGLE BIT OF MINUTIA
with RUN ON verbal essays!

Oh MAN! Just thinking about this again infuriates me! I so wanted to enjoy Fate/Zero, too. I was excited to see the bitter Emiya's underhanded tricks, the meeting of kings, etc. But everything, EVER SINGLE MOMENT is ruined by Nasu's failure for nuance.

That's what I enjoy about Fate/Extra, because the story is on a bigger and yet more human scale, and Nasu (or his ghost writer) managed to actually pull off subtly and nuance in more than one place in the story. Don't get me wrong, it was still full of expositional diarrhea but overall it was really well written and flowed great-
until the end. Twice was a rush-job and it's painfully obvious he went back and wrote in some "hints" (ie mostly random name-drops) into the earlier parts of the story so it wouldn't be that bad of a final reveal (though it was).

Fate/Extra should have ended with Leo. It also infuriates me to remember how they brought up such an interesting concept as Tamomo being Twice's servant and yet went nowhere with it. Come on. Why even have it in there?

Because Gilgamesh's stupid "giant golden magic jet airplane" is edgelord.

Tbh I feel like that with practically every anime. It might be a jap thing.

I find it far worse with Nasu, but come to think of it I can see that. Still, there are shows with genuinely good subtlety even if they do have exposition nausea - like Legend of the Galactic Heroes or that one 1950's gangster style anime that takes place on a train.

Fate/Zero was written by someone else, iirc. It was written by the guy who did the magical girl anime where a girl gets her head bitten off. The guy's name is Urobutchi or something like that. Not that Nasu isn't complete shit with that, especially since I believe he wrote that the battles are supposed to be conflicts of worldviews. So how the fuck did the crazy person who is an actual danger to himself beat anyone?

Baccano is what you are thinking of, I think.

I thought he only did consulting or something. I didn't know he wrote the whole thing, or most of it. Weird.

HAhaha WHAT?
Interesting point.

Yeah! That's the one.

Fuck FGO and Extella's world building. Seriously.

Might still rent Extella for Mumei, he apparently kicks a bit of ass in the sidestory and I'm a sucker for EMIYA.

I'm hyped, if only because it's mainly going to be about Shirou/EMIYA facerolling the shit an entire HGW and then pulling another unique UBW Gil fight. If they somehow manage to emphasize loli antics despite how sales rocketed after Shirou showed up and using this as the promo poster, then fuck everything. Prisma sucks as a whole, but I'm a sucker for Shirou.

It's Urobuchi and he's more of a general plotline with overarching themes kind of guy, with a unique and beautiful prose that doesn't translate at all. Like how most of the Servants have ironic deaths or they replay some act of their legend, like how Lancelot NTRs Artoria once again.

fuwanovel.net/2012/10/translation-difficulty-tiers-by-moogy/

Still prefer FSN, though.

Uro and Nasu are two completely different writers. Not just talking about how Nasu is crazy about his purple prose, double meanings and ruby text and Uro's hamartia flavoured wuxia wonderlands.

It's the fact that Nasu is a mystery writer and Uro is an action writer. Nasu wrote Kara no Kyoukai and Tsukihime, both of which are essentially all about mysteries and detective work. This shows in FSN, how after the first route, you're left with a fuck ton of questions if you "understood" all of the shit going on: What the fuck is going on with Shirou? what the fuck is the deal with his Projection? Who the fuck was Archer? How the hell did Shinji, with no magical talent and only his supposedly died out family, summon Rider? What the fuck did Gilgamesh want with Sakura? Why did Archer know about Reality Marbles, a tiny tidbit previously mention in Tsukihime in conjunction with Dead Apostles? What the fuck is going on with the Grail being Apocalyps-o-matic? Why does Saber know how to please men etc.?

Meanwhile, the only mystery that I could think of in Fate/Zero was Berserker's identity. I'm not saying there aren't more, I'm just saying that having read and watched both in both formats, that's what comes to mind.

In comparison to Tsukihime and KnK, Uro wrote(shows which I have watched or read, mind) stuff like Thunderbolt Fantasy, Saya no Uta and Psycho-Pass, which tend to be philosophical about the nature of man and good & evil with often a large slice of MARTIAL ARTS FUCK YEAH as a topping.

They're two completely different writers. Not just the obvious, duh, way. But in tone, themes and beliefs. I kind of prefer Uro despite preferring FSN over Zero, because Uro's got a bit more spine to him while Nasu tends to flip flop.

Can you elaborate on this one and which route it was in i do not recall it

This one as well

In day 2, we see Gil talking with Sakura. It's kind of a "lol wut" moment once you realize who Gil is at the end of the Fate route. Definite foreshadow for HF. Fate is really one big foreshadow route once you've read the rest of the VN, Nasu is a cheeky dick like that.

Saber mentions knowing how to please men in the second sex scene with Shirou. It remains one of the most hotly debated topics even today.

Oh shit your right i completely forgot about when gil was described as some strange foreigner by shirou when he spoke with sakura.

As for saber that is really cryptic considering how natural she seemed to be in that whole sex scene and creates alot of implications.

I totally agree with what you said. However, you have to concede that F/Z is a prequel; as such, it's way harder to add a layer a mystery when the viewer knows exactly how the story is going to end. I'm not saying you can't do it.

I think the futacock experience is what Nasu had in mind, but who knows. Not exactly a huge priority for me to figure out.

True, but that's also it's strength in a great sense; we know it's going to be a fucking trainwreck, all that remains then for Uro to do is surprise us with just how massive and thorough a trainwreck it is.

And oh boy oh boy. Gil incarnated, Kotomine gets the first taste of pleasure, Kerry mindbroken after he throws away everything he ever held dear, Fuyuki burned with 500 consumed by cursed fire, Lancelot failed to explain his feelings to his king AGAIN, Diarmuid's habit of just going with the flow nets him another NTR BAD END where his lord lets him die again, Saber gets bullied so hard she goes from "Fuck, REMATCH!" to "I don't want to play anymore ;_;" etc.

During Saber's time in Camelot she had to pretend that she was a man. She used Merlin's magic to disguise herself. Since Nasu's Merlin is a half succubus he decided to prank her and give her a real dick. So Saber thinks that since she once had a dick, she knows all about sex despite being a virgin. So that's just her being silly.

You mean people actually read the dialogue in those sex scenes and didn't just furiously skip them whenever they showed up?

Newfag to the Fate and Tsukihime series. Are you guys upset due to wasted potential or shitting writing all together? I only know these series through Melty Blood and Nitroplus Blasters.

It's a TM thing; each new entry to the series gets shit on by the old fans. Turkeyhandle oldfags still treat Fate-only fans like Fatebabies, Fatefags treat Zero secondaries like scum, everyone shits on Kaleid, Extra is that shitty rock-paper-scissor grinding simulator etc.

I usually see that in any community that governs a large series.
And Fates fans get the last laugh because Intelligent Systems caters to them.

Besides that I'm sure some have legit reasons why one series is better than the other.

W-what did they mean by this?

so they are really going all out with the waifus in this one it looks like. it seems to mainly be about nero and fluffy tail

It actually seems to mostly be about Umu Saber and Ganguro Saber, with a light sprinkling of Seeeibah in the backstory

yuuuup.

Oh wait, it's not bait. You're actually this stupid. Well shit, time for lessons.

Nasu did the skeleton work and handed Gen Urobuchi a blank check. But please, go on about how the diatribes in the books ruin the pacing without actually once mentioning how slow vol 1 starts off as, or how most non-retarded brains should actually be fully-engaged at that point, particularly since it's come after three (two but who's counting) masters downed and one Servant taken out the game…or how the King's Banquet was entirely made of the same shit you're bitching about.

Congratualtions on enjoying another title that Nasu barely touched, and in fact had to swiftlyoverhaul as imageepoch, who had gotten rights to make the game, fucked it royally script/world-wise and he was called in before gold deadline to fix it. Tell us more about the complete vehicle story where you're more party witness to a slow, sterile tourney with just a small amount of twists and a left-field and entirely unnecessary final antagonist. The game more hailed as waifu bait than even FSN. Go on.

You need to try harder.

Game says split occurs at the fourth round where instead of fighting Dracula or Arcueid they fight Tamamo with some new master. Gil route is canon for CCC

so is the main character still just an A.I?

He's as real as the servants. In fact you technically fight Altera twice as the MC

as it turns out Extella is poorly translated because of the mistranslation of everything. Altera didn't use Excalibur to turn into a giant or EA is stronger than Types. Xseed is literally Working Design 2.0

I'll wait for a price drop. Or pirate it.

I want to insert my penis into BaconSaber and ejaculate

Umu!

They actually fug at the end

Doesn't excuse what I said about it and only compounds more to what I said.

You think I'd read anything Nasu wrote in book form? He could barely keep a single VN (Fate/StayNight) together without retconning the rules of his own world like he's a junkie itching for his next fix. I hear that he has a unique and rather interesting prose in Japanese, but I don't read Japanese and no matter your prose or wordplay, long, boring monologues (that is ultimately pointless) will always be marks of a hack.

I was talking about the anime, obviously.

Wait a minute
What are you talking about? How is the first volume of a work starting off slow a positive thing if it eventually leads into a bit of plot and then that terrible dialogue-vomit fest?

King's Banquet had an engaging concept and execution, as opposed to yapping about world rules while walking in a circle.

Probably why I liked it.
Evidence. I'll reconsider what I said with this considered.

I have had people defend Nasu to me constantly, always shifting the blame onto other people or companies, or it was the artist's fault, or it was the audience's fault, etc. It's the same arguments used for all Nip Hacks.

Complete what? Fate/Extra has a conclusion, mate. It's no more of a vehicle than Fate/StayNight was.
Unless you mean "merchandise vehicle", in which case I'd have to ask - why do you think they gender-bent King Arthur and changed the protag into a boy instead of a girl? And why do you think Fate/StayNight had such hamfisted sex scenes?

I don't care if they made a product and want it to sell, just so long as the product isn't soulless, and it wasn't.

Sorry it didn't have enough walking in circles and golden jet airplanes to keep you entertained.
Less is more
FSN could have been far better if Nasu learned this from the beginning.
Come to think of it, most everything could be far better, actually. Japanese have a weird obsession with spelling everything out all the time.

Agreed. I mentioned that already. It should have ended with Leo.

That's Fate/Extra CCC you're thinking of, mate.

TL;DR Nasu dindu nuffin, Fate/Zero was good tho, there was a lot more "edgelord" stuff in Zero than a stupid jet airplane, Urobuchi and Imageepoch diverged from Nasu's vision, etc. etc.

But Nasu was the guy who wrote a martial artist knocking out Saber with his fists, right?
The equivalent to Bruce Lee knocking Superman on his ass.

This explained a lot. Thanks!

I wish their narratives matched their incredible passion for literary artwork.
If I spoke Nip, I think with Nasu I would feel like it'd be reading a gold-covered nugget of mediocrity.

If that's indicative of what a 1-1 style translation of Nasu's writing would be, I can see how it's next to impossible. I couldn't stand reading something so terribly, obnoxiously pretentious - but that's likely just because it's not rooted in its intended language.

I'll respect the man for his prose. I don't respect him for his narrative retconning at almost every turn.

We already kind of knew that from the character trailers. They're literally worse than machine translations. Ulster is somehow translated as Alastar, even when fucking google translate knows better.

Archer trailer does some funny shit, too. Hrunting >> "Snap at them!" iirc.

Well, it's more like an invisible Bruce Lee with a kryptonite ring or something.

Saccadic masking, brah.
youtube.com/watch?v=qIF3FRwbG6Y

Why do people like Saber so much? She's Welsh. She probably had a hundred sheep shag her.

It's still stupid, but to be fair I see your point. I can also see how something like this could work on Arturia as opposed to, say, a servant like Li Shuwen.

This was pretty interesting. Thanks, mate!

She didn't act like it.

Primate Murder was literally defeated by the power of friendship and love.

I won't spoil anything, but I have to get this off my chest.

YOU ARE THE SOUL

THE SOUL IS ETERNAL, IMMORTAL, IMMATERIAL

HOW CAN YOU DENY ETERNITY WHEN YOU ARE A SOUL AND YOUR WAIFU IS A LITERAL DEITY?!

TO HELL WITH YOUR PRETTY MOONRUNE PROSE, NASU! YOU'RE AN IDIOT! YOU'RE AN ABSOLUTE, WILLFUL IDIOT!

>eternity literally lasts forever by definition

This is precisely why Nip writers (except for Yasuhiro Nightow) should be kept
FAR, FAR AWAY
from anything remotely philosophical, let alone foundationally metaphysical -

THESE IDIOTS WON'T EVEN CRACK OPEN A BOOK TO LOOK THIS STUFF UP

I don't care how pretty and special your literary vernacular or prowess with lingual prose is, when this kind of self-contradictory stupidity tumbles out: you are a fool.

Nice to see Gil is still super overpowered

well apparently in fate the soul isnt immortal. zouken's soul was starting to rot after being kept alive for so long and he was trying to get true immorality

They retconned the reincarnation aspect, Akasha, out? Because that was an aspect of it in the past, there was reincarnation with no real point, no Buddhism going towards enlightenment with each life, or Hinduism's Karma.

I forgot about him. Never played through Heaven's Feel, only got the pointers from a friend of mine who got sick of it halfway through but finished it "just to do it".

>rot: decay/decomposition of matter
Again, Nasu is an idiot.

No mention of it yet, but I would not be surprised. So far there's just inter-dimensional timeline hopping but that's about it.

I remember that aspect of the world lore/setting being intricately tied to Servants and how they function in FSN, though I think that got retconned ages ago. Now every Servant remembers everything previously, etc.

Oh hey, Vlad gets name-dropped in Caster's ending.
I wonder why they didn't bring him back. Would have been great to play as Vlad the impaler, but maybe they ran through him with all they could do with him in CCC and got tired of the character.

the reason that zouken has the appearance of an old man is not cause he wants to have it but because thats the form that his soul puts him so zouken says that it is some kind of decay or rot or something cause other wise his appearance shouldnt be that old man if he was truly an immortal

There's always the possibility of DLC characters. I hope we get more Extra and Grand Order servants.

The soul rot is related to the reincarnation and yeah, the goal of a lot of the vampires is figuring out how to trick the system into immortality. Hence the villain of Tsukihime doing something so he could kinda reincarnate with some memories intact, but was still degrading.

What doesn't make sense is that the gods are supposed to be the same way, and not really supposed to be that great.

He was originally the fourth strongest servant in the Nasuverse, although at this point I'm not so sure

Ironically the game itself contradicts this since Archimedes and the plot spell out that the soul was the only one who could basically go on ad infinitum. I just chalked this up to the protag being mindless

You'll be happy to know him and Lil Ronnie along with Arcueid and her partner get retconned

Order of Extella servants best to worst
Casko > Jeanne > Elizabeth > Gilgamesh > Karna > Nero > Iskander > Cu > Lu Bu > Emiya > Li > AlteraUUUU > Gawain > Venus > Medusa > Altera > Arturia > Archimedes

Which makes sense in principal, but that would mean that Nasu retconned the entirety of his universe's metaphysics, which actually would not surprise me. huh

But then why did the protag say that idiotic line about curtain calls and eternity being too much for a human? Did he forget he had written that in by the time he wrote the part you mentioned, or did he simply never proofread what he wrote? Or did he stop caring?

I'm getting real tired of this

There is no more DLCs to in Japan got to wait for the sequel with Solomon

Type-Venus? Or is it something else.

There are two destroyflatties?

...

Saber Venus
Pic related

It gets better. Remember that useless master everyone forgot from the fifth grail war? Caster's original master? Yep, apparently he actually managed to hack the moon cell in this universe and becomes Caster's master for the 4th round
As for the soul I can imagine having a literal third of the holy grail in your pocket would go a long way

Yeah, one had a cancelled waterslide bath scene

What in the unholy fuck? I can't take that thing seriously when it looks like it came out of Devilman.
Also I'm salty that neither form of Rad Vlad are in.

We want the Noel fans.

...

they are very few people in the nasuverse that have true immortality. I think zelterich might be 1 and the sister of the girl who made shiki's glasses has it

Playing Altera's story mode now.
She literally, not figuratively but literally, passively absorbs (ie eats) "spiritrons" from everything that was created by mankind's imagination. She literally absorbs "culture".
Not gonna lie this is getting real stupid fam
Titan a cute

I get nothing. Who is this again?

...

So she is a MEME EATER ?

Reminder that Caster is for Love. Caster a Best, Saber a Pest.

The old dude who gives Tohsaka her sword?

You'd know what the deal was if any of you read the Materials on Tsukihime. Three things make up the composition of a living thing: mind, soul, body. Soul is the blueprint of a being as well as the nerve system for its magic/psychic ability. Things like Origin, magic circuit count, any/all craft proficiency, possible psychic ability, and extremely innate quirks start with the soul.

Mind is individuality and personality and also actualizes instructions for the soul to carry out (magecraft, psychic abilities). Less complex, if damaged can make instructions hard to carry (See Shirou's complete mental wipe as a result of the 4th war, Ryougi Shiki's "loss" of her male self, etc) Body is the simplest—it's the vessel that is shaped however the soul needs it to. That said, shaping is difficult and fatal unless you're either a Dead Apostle or you've profficiency in that format (3rd Magic: Heaven's Feel. See also, Shirou post!HF route, Zouken kind of serves as an example as well).

None of these three components are truly immortal. No exceptions. True immortality the way you'd typically imagine doesn't exist in the Nasuverse. Even a potent enough Sorcery could technically fuck over the Throne of Heroes and destroy the prints/souls within. All of the Types have an immortality only so long as their parent planet properly exists. The Root is the safest place for a soul to reside as it's functionally impervious to harm, and preserves them for the eternity that's referenced.

Dead Apostles are the functioning example of decaying souls. It's not the body that they have to feed, it's the soul. Composition stolen from other living beings sustains a Dead Apostle and they'll rot and die without replenishing & reinforcing what they lose. Even the process denotes this. A human that's bitten becomes Dead. Their mind dies in almost every aspect, and they're little more than a muted soul programmed by the parent DA to wander around creating more Dead and returning the new nutrients to that parent DA. Given a few years, a Dead will begin to soul awaken and through that, regenerate their brain, becoming smarter/stronger/faster how they operate (A Ghoul). More time will see the complete regeneration of the brain & return of personality and former being, though they'll still be mostly indebted/enslaved to the parent. Satsuki went through this transformation near-instantly because she had that high level latent magic potential in her soul. It's also the reason she forged a Reality Marble near-instantly as well.

Nero Chaos nearly (and actually "does") lose himself and his soul due to the overabundance of and method of stealing soul matter that is so different from most other Dead Apostle Ancestors.

tl;dr the soul in the Nasuverse is not an immortal concept. It can be manipulated, summoned, and even destroyed to lesser parts.

Of course, a lot of Fate spinoffs like to shit on these concepts without reserve.

Why would Nasu even refer to it as the "soul" if it is ontologically entirely different than what a soul actually is?
That's stupid. If he called it something else (a unique name for each of the three composite matters) then it wouldn't be terrible. It just sounds like something someone who scarcely studied anything of philosophical metaphysics would come up with just to be special.

Who chose them?

Aside from that, though, I have to wonder: If Nasu went through so much time intricately mapping out and defining the metaphysics of his narrative universe, why would he almost routinely retcon it?
Exactly.

Thanks for the info, though, mate!

>So she is a MEME EATER ?
Technically, yes.

If she came down to the earth today she'd probably grow beyond the scope of the universe from just the pepe memes alone. Just think of that!

Man I tell yah, playing JRPGs like this one is weird as a Christian.

Just watching Nasu try to inject meaning into a universe of absolute impermanence, defined and guided by a vague, nebulous "god" concept that "quantum timelocks" things, is unbelievably awkward.

Only thing I really like is that it's semi-breaking the fourth wall by having the player leap from route to route, chasing after Archimedes, which is such a cool concept that I can forgive the mind-numbingly pathetic attempt at metaphysics and philosophy.

Also, since when did Gilgamesh become a cool guy? Last I remembered he was a vile manchild tyrant who got his greatest pleasures from beating and raping women so viciously they became mangled, impregnated messes (or corpses).

His epic began in the 18th century BC.

Gil was always a cool guy, he's just a bit of a dick. IIRC he was more dickish in F/SN because of the sludge that spilled on him from the corrupted grail before the events of F/SN.

I remember a scene in which Shirou mentions how the sludge hadn't corrupted him at all, that was all him.
But yeah he was a complete dick.

If I recall correctly, that was technically the living embodiment of all of mankind's "sins" (though what a "sin" is in this universe is beyond me), so if that's the case I guess I can see how that would only amplify the worst of Gil.

I mean, he did get infected by pure-grade "sin" so, yeah.

I guess that detail was given in the Heaven's Feel route? I don't remember that being the case at all, or even mentioned, in the Fate route. It's been ages, though, so eh.

Oh, okay then. So we're back to square one.

Wait wasn't there some other fate story where Gil was summoned as a cool guy shota and when he got bigger he wasn't such a vile piece of filth but was just the kind of a likable jerk?

Hollow Ataraxia, he's a good kid as a shota so everyone wonders how did he manage to grow up into such a jerk, which is pretty weird considering the epic is exactly the other way around, he only becomes a decent king after pretty much everything was over.

He drank the potion of youth the thing he never fucking got in his own epic, fucking Nasu and became a kid because he couldn't tolerate modern humanity, iirc.

Didn't he actually get it but a snek steals it from him while he is sleeping?

Yeah, I fucked that up. I just remembered that he somehow lost it before he could ever use it.

Welp, that's Nasu for you. Again.

Yes, a snake steals it. He loses his potential for immortality and then realizes that immortality comes by way of memory, and so he essentially vows to be a good and honorable king so he can live on in his people. Something like that.

Funny enough, younger Gil starts out his story exactly as the kind of serial rapist/murderer greedy sociopath he is in FSN. It's why his character annoyed me to no end also that Servants are literally stated to gain their power levels, to a large degree, according to their fame/infamy among peoples, hence why Arturia was rather OP - and yet Gilgamesh, who almost NO ONE knows about in any detail, is one of the strongest Servants? That makes no sense according to the rule Nasu already established earlier on in that same route! And don't even get me started on how Gilgamesh has the entirety of the heroes' catalogue of NP when there are Akkadian legends older than the Epic of Gilgamesh coldcasechristianity.com/2013/is-noahs-flood-simply-a-retelling-of-prior-mythologies/ .

Also, anyone else remember when Gil said in FSN that he "gave" the potion/apple to the snake? More Nasu quality research. Or retcons.

Still, I prefer Gil being a whimsical jerk rather than what he is in FSN. I can appreciate him as a random force of nature with his own code of conduct (highly dependent on how he's feeling at the time).

I also have to say I like that Gilgamesh vaguely implies he remembers the events of CCC, or that's the impression I had of why he went alone with Altera just for your sake and why he cared about your choices in the matter.. Wish "Nameless" had even a few bits similar.

Gilgamesh wasn't corrupted by the grail mud, but he also wasn't necessarily behaving as he normally would, either. One of the comments by Nasu is the Gilgamesh in many ways reflects the thoughts of the time period he is summoned into. Having been brought into the 90s era, with all of the "rage against the establishment" bullshit and other anti-mankind crap, his inclinations to humans being pieces of shit overwhelmed his inclinations to wanting to see humans building spaceships. He didn't really care all that much either way, though. In Fate, he was just looking to dick Saber. In HF, the only thing he ever gets around to doing is putting down Sakura before she can pose a threat to all of humanity (as opposed to just the vast majority of humans). He doesn't really demonstrate his full level of being an asshole until Kirei, the only person he found interesting, dies in UBW.

In Hollow Ataraxia, Gil recognizes that he's been stuck in the four day time loop, and considers it to be silly. So he takes the potion of youth from the Gate of Babylon and returns to his child form. In certain "paths" he returns to his adult form, and uses his wealth and a large pack of children to harass Lancer and Archer (who was also harassing Lancer) because, whatever else you can say about him, Gil is good with children.

In the very final scene, at the end of the four day loop, he returns to his adult form to pretty much make all of the other Servants look like chumps (notably in the same scene where the entire cast looks like badasses).

Fame doesn't make Servants a great deal more or less powerful, it allows them to demonstrate the power they have. Gilgamesh has the highest degree of mystery as the oldest hero, and since in Nasuverse the original is always the strongest, he himself becomes the strongest Heroic Spirit. Because of how GoB works, he always has the exact perfect tool for killing every hero or monster. The best way to describe it is a hacked way of meaning that his "fame" rather than being the fame of the hero Gilgamesh is the fame of every "Hero's Journey" type hero throughout human history, because his legend was the first of them all.

Fame is another aspect. Cu Chulainn is the one that gets the biggest hits for it. Literally nobody knows shit about him in Nipland, so he gets summoned as "that guy with the spear" rather than getting his chariot, fortress,and other shit. Summoned in Europe, and especially in Ireland, he's a monster and a candidate for Saber, Archer, Lancer, Rider, Berserker, and Caster classes. Arguably Assassin, which would put him ahead of even Herakles in terms of diversity of skills.

they explain why gilgamesh isnt a dick in extra ccc. gilgamesh didnt like the world of the 4th and 5th grail but he did like the moon cell so he became chill

Can shiki kill servants?

I hate the Fate series.
But I preordered this game anyway because I have an addiction to Musous that I can't break.
Does anyone else have this problem? I need professional help

it's ok
many people buy games

Yes

Jesus Christ, this game is 50 bongs?

As someone who only played the first few hours of Fate/Extra and while liking the story, the rock paper scissors shit got old; unless here's some sort of trick to it I missed where does this fall in the story line? I'm assuming after Extra/CCC, but that was jap only so i've never played it either. Will I be totally lost going into Extella?

Yes, but that's okay, the shitloads of retcons and shit right off the bat means you would be lost even if you played CCC and went directly into this..

That said, the biggest thing to "know" is "You won the Grail war with Saber, Caster replaces basically replaces Rani/Rin as the "support" member you used Command Seal to save", between that and and Extra you should actually be pretty solid since i don't really see too much CCC referencing so far other then Wolverine Elizabeth being a Idol Traitor and Gil actually giving a shit about the MC.

Not surprising even though it is a BUDGET MUSHOU, Extra stayed full price for a LOOOOONG time too IIRC.

WHAT
If the character was the embodiment of the "spirit of the times" or something, then this would work.

He's Gilgamesh. He's not even REMOTELY related to the times of man, but a single legend during the earlier Babylonian age.

This is stupid.

Thanks for the info, though, and for telling me what Gil does in HF.

I'm getting upset. I am getting upset.
In the legend he lost the apple to the snake. In Fate, he says he gave the apple (or potion?) to the snake. Now he has it in the Gate of Babylon?

It really is not, but since Nasu didn't really research much of anything beyond the Arthurian Legends I'll just accept it for the series's sake.

That said, I can somewhat dig your explanation. It works.

Okay, wait, but see how this doesn't make sense? Nips know as much about Gilgamesh (and king arthur for that matter) as they do about Cu Chulainn. And Gilgamesh should be globally inhibited since practically no one knows him or his legend aside from the title, if that even.

By that token, the strongest servant would be Nobunaga since he's internationally famous and gets the homeland advantage in Nipland.

And though Nasu would never be so bold and controversial as to put him in, by this same token Hitler would be the grandest Servant of all. Not only does he harbor global infamy, even greater than Stalin (though Stalin was an inarguably worse evil), but the truths and myths about him make him a legend looming well beyond Gilgamesh.

See what I'm driving at here?

Considering the blatant retcons and references to retcons which were never even conveyed previously, you won't have much of a hard time. Like user said

Remember when people were telling us that Nasu said CCC was his crowning work in the Fate franchise? That the True End was really the ending for the entire Fate series?

Remember when Nasu supposedly held CCC in great esteem?

Guess he tossed that out real quick. Really makes you wonder what the point of CCC even was, aside from having a "Sakura Route" or sorts for the Extra story.

More retcons to his character, then, I guess. At least it fits his whimsy.

Dead Apostle Ancestor (one of the Numbered), Marshall Wizard of the Clocktower, and also master of the 2nd Sorcery, Kaleidoscope. He left the blueprints to a wand that duplicates his sorcery with the Tohsaka and helped construct the original HF ceremony that was fucked over. Rin eventually sketches out the design but fails to duplicate the wand. It takes Shirou memory-diving into Illya's genetic memory (special to her Homoculus lineage) to successfully create a 1:1 duplicate of the wand.

Accounted for in that Servants (full Servants) manifest items and powers they became famous for. This is why Caster was able to give a wraith the form of Sasaki Koujirou (who was famous for the Tsubame Gaeshi), and why Chulainn is able to utilize Gae Bolg without a long, drawn out ceremony that requires no less than sacred river water from his homeland. Let's also not forget: Medusa never rode Bellerophon, it was birthed from her corpse. Gil never had a "key" that unlocked a massive vault of treasure. Arturia also had a famous dagger but is missing it as she's an improper Servant. I'd say she'd be summoned as a MAN, but Nasu's fucked even that much through these various spinoff shits. As a full Servant proper, she'd be carrying Avalon, regardless.

What you CAN complain about, is Gilgamesh's lack of proficiency w/weapons. He never mastered one but his strength & Enkidu's was enough to best the giant Phunbaba.

There's no trick. You grind the monsters until most of their choices are revealed to you, at which point you breeze. Caster is Nightmare Mode in the game because she's glass and can't tank hits. She gets better after the Robin Hood fight as you have access then to her OP spells, but it's hard going for anyone before that point. To say the least of fighting Ryougi. But provided you're not lazy, Caster is easily the most OP character in the game.

I mean the pegasus. The stable boy's name was Bellerophon.

That a Hitler servant would be a great idea for another Fate/ game?
I'd buy it.

To be fair in Arturias case, Carnwennan would likely just mean a Presence Concealment skill, possibly with Anti-Magic shit thrown on, not exactly impressive compared to the shit gets already, Her Magic Resistance means Casters are fucked already anyway, and Presence Concealment is generally a SHIT skill.

Ah that's pretty cool. It's a shame Nasu is such a hack with retcons because he would have an amazing richly interconnected universe otherwise.

Me too

That doesn't slice it, man. By that logic you might as well have King Arthur being summoned with carrying the Holy Grail. Also, wasn't there something about the Servant having a wish which they would sacrifice themselves to be summoned by the Grail to attain?

I know that got changed when we go into how the Moon Cell works, but still.

It is not. Problem is it's never utilized in FSN/FZ as its intended to be. The one time you do see it utilized is when Shirou is "summoned" to Zouken's mansion. Assassin could've killed Shirou six times before Saber even flinched at that point in time (nevermind she was long gone by then). The only other time you see it used is when someone is being careful enough to accommodate for that skill:

- Assassin is told to "kill" Tokiomi apprentice & makes a damned-good effort of evading the Tohsaka mansion's defenses only to be slaughtered by Gilgamesh because the whole thing was a setup that THAT particular Hassan was not in on.
- They blow their cover in Bluebeard's lab—the one time they genuinely fail their Presence Concealment
- They were ordered to slaughter everyone at the King's Banquet. No PC being used at all, there.
- Li Shuwen uses it perfectly and it's basically author intervention that allows Hakuno to survive in Extra when their Servant (Tamamo/Emiya/Nero) take the blow meant for them.

Skills and stats the people constantly state suck are just never shown in a positive light. It's a bad assumption to conclude they're shit.

No, because King Arthur never ever obtained the Holy Grail. One of his knights did. Likewise, the whole "wish" factor was a component of the ceremony. It's a lure used to call the spirit from the Throne of Heroes into the vessel class prepared for them. Using FSN as an example

Cuhlainn - died with zero regrets, basically just wanted a good fight.
Medusa - No wish, just gained a mutual understanding and desire to protect Sakura, even if it meant the end of the world.
Heracles - Also no wish. Initially wanted a good fight, adapted into protecting his daughteru no matter what.
Emiya - Drive to become an hero and cause a time paradox.
Arturia - Wanted to redo the King's Selection and wipe the bloody history of Camelot off the map.
Sasaki - No wish, just wanted a good fight.
Medea - Wanted to be a good wife to someone.
Hassan - Wanted his own identity
Gilgamesh - Just wanted to watch the world burn & let Darwin sort it out.

Zelretch is also a bumbling old man who leaves apprentices as gibbering messes of insanity because he's a walking, talking One Piece character stuck in the wrong genre. Nasu's gone on record saying the only reason he attacked (the original) Type-Moon was due to a grave and hilarious misunderstanding.

Oh, so you're a secondary.

In the context of the Nasuverse, Gilgamesh is meant to be the oldest king of humans, who amassed all of the treasures of humanity, and as a result, has the prototype form (which means stronger in the Nasuverse) of every Noble Phantasm with a very small number of exceptions. He loves humanity for what it can create, and as the "king over all of humanity", he behaves differently.

In Babylonia, the last arc of Grand Order, he shows up in his (still alive) form as the wise king at the conclusion of the epic as one of your main allies. While he still does some dumbass things, which pretty much lead to things going from "fucked" to "very fucked", he overall shows that he cares about protecting his people more than anything else. In something like F/SN, he sees people behaving like shitters, and decides to make a correction.

The materials clarify that Gilgamesh did in fact lose the herb which gave immortality, after it was eaten by a snake. He's talking out of his ass in Fate because in his mind, anything someone else has is something that he has given/allowed them to have.

The reason he has the potion of youth is because he has every Noble Phantasm. There are legends across history of people drinking from fountains of youth and similar feats. Because a hero in the past did so, he has to have the original version. That's how the Gate of Babylon functions, and it's why it's completely OP.

Look at how many anime and shit use the name Excalibur. There's a reason that it's the most famous holy sword in the Nasuverse - while you make some severe assumptions about how much the Japanese know, King Arthur and the legends of Camelot are very wide reaching. And while you yourself may not have known much of it, I've know the story of the epic of Gilgamesh since at least the age of twelve, and had heard shortened variants from much earlier. The name is widespread.

Regardless, fame is still only part of it. In the case of Gilgamesh, he's 2/3 god and has every Noble Phantasm. Whatever level of fame he has, he still stands head and shoulders. Even Cu, summoned in a land where he had zero fame bonus, was one of the top servants in the 5th War.

Nobu is a fairly powerful Servant with very strong anti-mystery abilities, but not to the same degree as the oldest of Servants, like Gilgamesh or Enkidu.

No, because Hitler was just a normal guy. He might have decent skills as a Servant, and if summoned into a class container, his abilities might be boosted up. But in the case of someone like Herakles, they are dramatically weakened as a Servant because the standard class containers can't hold their actual level of power.

The older the legend, the more powerful the Servant. Hitler could be a strong Servant, but he'd still lose out to anyone in the 5th War. Probably even True Assassin.

Like Medusa never ever obtained/rode the Pegasus?
Or like how Gilgamesh never ever obtained the archetype weapons of the heroes of the world (let alone a golden super jet airplane)?

Look, I understand and appreciate you explaining it from Nasu's intentions. That doesn't change how inconsistent and dumb it is.

Was that why she ritually magic-raped Saber?

That's embarassing.

Anyway, no I meant that the hero had to have a wish in their life which would entice them to basically sign a deal with the "Grail" so they would be summoned by it (forever) in tournaments where they would get a shot at their wish.

That is, that Heroes needed to have a wish and then, because they wanted something as a dear wish, get subjected to being a Servant (or a magic clone of the hero being a servant, with Arturia being the exception).

Pretty sure that was in FSN. It's the reason they are Servants in the first place. Not that they need to have a wish they want to fulfill during the tournament but that they needed a wish to fulfill before they got into the whole mess to begin with.

Interesting, but that doesn't explain why his persona and mindset would alter so drastically depending on the time period he's summoned into. Remember: prior to all the rectons and added backstories, FSN Gil was just an OP rapist/murderer who, as the other user said, wanted to watch the world burn.

You know what I love about actual, respectable novelists? They don't need to clarify important character aspects and world building in extra-story materials. You don't need the Silmarillion to understand Hobbit or LoTR, and you don't need anything extra to clarify anything in Dune. I could go on, but you get my point.

I won't rail on Nasu for this too much, though, since it seems every single Nip writer (aside from the likes of Yasutaka Tsutsui or Hideyuki Kikuchi) leans hard on extra works/materials this way. It's sad when it's necessary.

See? This makes sense and actually works! If this was simply hinted at, that he just was running off at the mouth with ego when he said this, it would have been fine. It's just a sentence or two. No need to leave it in the materials!

Considering a NURSERY RHYME can be a Servant, I shouldn't be surprised that an immortality/youth potion is an NP…
Gilgamesh is what you get when the other kid you're playing with desperately wants to win and starts making up power levels.

They are educated assumptions, mate. Most Nips only know surface level of anything historical about the West, let alone religions and myths. The reason you see the name Excalibur so often is because it's the most famous super-sword. That's all. You think the common Japanese knows (or cares to know) next to anything about Jesus just because everything in its mother has a cross on/in it?
Not even as remotely as you think, mate. I also read the Count of Monte Cristo at age 12 or so, but I would be surprised if you read it or really knew much of anything about it (without looking it up) aside from it being a story of intricate revenge.

You really think that if Cu Chulainn, who at least appears prominently in SMT vidya, is barely recognized in Japan that one of the oldest Mesopotamian legends would be?

That much is objective fact. I still think Servant Hitler would win. haha

I can see that after all this. It's because Nasu perpetually operates under the vampire mythos: older = stronger

You'd think if he keeps this kind of concept in mind he'd eventually return to the root of his universe with Tsukihime.

Though, wait a minute: If "older = stronger" then gods should be much stronger than they appear to be.

Get it together, nerds.

yeah but like that guy above said. when a godlike being is put into the constraints of the servant system they actually get weaker. just look at arcuied in extra who was put as a zerker cause moon cell didnt what to do with her and os much weaker

Gilgamesh is a character whose behavior changes over the course of his own story. There are a few stages - before Enkidu, with Enkidu, after Enkidu died, and after failing to become immortal. He's summoned almost universally in the state of "after Enkidu". He appears as "after failure" in Babylonia, where he's the main ally; in Strange Fake, he acts differently because Enkidu was summoned alongside him. It's also commented that his summoning in CCC is slightly further along his mental timeline than in Stay Night, but even then, there's still a possible bad ending where he outright kills your character out of annoyance. He has always been a Heroic Spirit. He was the antagonist of the story in F/SN, but he was doing what he believed was correct.

There's a major part of story-telling where you assume the audience is familiar with certain things. Every book, for example, assumes the reader is familiar with the language it is written in if they are reading it, and can understand all of the normal words of that language which are used in it. In older texts such as the Iliad, certain things such as the names and natures of the gods, the importance of certain older myths and traditions, and so forth are all known at the start. There's no reason to describe them.

When the Iliad mentions a character as son of Herakles, it doesn't need to describe who Herakles is. When Fate/Stay Night has Gilgamesh say some dumb shit, it doesn't need to re-tell the Epic of Gilgamesh, because the audience is already assumed to be familiar with it. So when Gilgamesh says some dumb shit, an audience that doesn't know this will believe it; one that does know will call him out on his shit.

Again, if a character pulls something out of their ass, why should the writer have to clarify that this is the case? F/SN is written in first-person, so unless Shirou knows for a fact that Gilgamesh is talking out of his ass, it would be stupid to mention it in the story.

Pic related. You'd be surprised at how these things get tossed around.

Gods required True Ether in order to function, and in the modern era Nasuverse, that True Ether has been replaced by normal Ether, which is used to perform Magecraft. The gods began to weaken after the death of King Solomon and the end of the Age of Gods, and by the end of the Age of Mystery, around the time of King Arthur, they lost pretty much all influence over the mortal world. It was about the mid-point between those two times, around the birth of Christ, that their Authority (the powers that made them OP) was pretty much stripped away.

The only interference by Divine Spirits has been in Babylonia, some summoned pseudo-Servants in Grand Order, and a very roundabout interference involving Solomon and the Abrahamic God at the end of Grand Order.

He visited Detroit

Unless stated or implied otherwise, there is no reason to doubt what a character says about anything at any time. It's not a mystery "Who Dunnit?" where everyone's word is vague or lies.

It's a story where MOST of the dialogue is long monologues the reader has to take at face-value. Gilgamesh gave no impression he was lying, and he did not state or imply that he "owned everything, therefore anything someone else owns or takes is something I/he simply gave to them".

And is the narrator unreliable? No. What's your point?
Even if he was, how would we be given the hint to question what Gilgamesh says about his own lore?

Did WE see his legend unfold? Is it ever explained to us? He was the one who was there, after all. If he says it went down like that, then it likely went down like that since we were not there so see otherwise.

You proved my point, but you got it backwards:
The fact that Shirou did NOT know he was lying REQUIRES the author to state or imply that it was, in fact, a lie.

Otherwise it sounds more like Nasu covering his ass after the fact.

This is painful.

Okay I'm done. No more peeking down the rabbit hole. This is getting JoJo "Jesus Bones" teir idiotic with the blend of willful ignorance and hackneyed fantasy lore almost entirely derived from unoriginal historical and mythological sources.

Why couldn't he just make up gods, kings, even a whole world? Why did he need to utilize historical and mythological figures he very clearly knows absolutely nil about (and doesn't care to) and has no proper concept of the notion of what would constitute an actual deity outside of skimming some Shintoism and thinking that's how paganism works.

This is Marvel-teir. This is "Christian Captain America but Norse God Thor"-teir. I can't take it anymore. The Dead Apostles thing was really interesting but the deeper I go the more painful this is to digest. Does he even know why Solomon is said to be the wisest king to ever live? Does he even care that King Arthur is a myth and there's historical evidence for Solomon existing?

It's set on Earth, OUR Earth. It incorporates all the myths and religions of OUR world. Just because you write up some bastardization of metaphysical concepts doesn't mean you can jumble everything with a pulse into a paint shaker and think it'll fit without looking like a blob of incoherent gray mush.

The "every religion/myth is real" has and always will be a pathetic hack's attempt at world building. It requires no effort and demands no thought from the reader, because if they think about it for even a moment–

–they'd realize how God, as in the God, Yahweh, would ever fit into a world of vampires, Lovecraftian Types, Tamomo no Mae, Dead Apostles, and everything else! Oh, and Buddha. Don't forget about Buddha, (though maybe that was a Servant? It's unclear if it really was a Servant or not).

I mean do you even begin to see how this irrevocably BREAKS the epistemological and metaphysical rules/laws established by the writer? You can't have God or a God-like AND have all this other stuff too! It breaks it! Unless you go with an Aristotelian view of "God" where it's more of a god-concept, but then that's just thought-thinking-thought and just nevermind.

This infuriates me as a writer. We work so hard developing lore, mythology, religion, civilizations and unique metaphysics (or we cheat here by choosing a system already devised, like Middle Platoism or mimicking the Christian presupposition by another name). Then these lazy hacks come in and just shove everything together, and no one even bats an eye at it! In fact, they don't care! Why work hard? LOL Tolkien should have just made Bilbo a demi-dragon loli fighting Azathoth with Excalibur after offering a blood moon sacrifice to Yahweh to gain the power of the Nine-Tailed Vampyr!

Anyway, thanks for all this clarification and lore stuff, mate. I appreciate it!

haha
It'd be funny to see a RoboCop Servant

It's been a while since i've come across a likeable jerk kind of character, is he like this in CCC?

F/Z and the like? No.

So what you're saying is that you are a better story creator than that hack Homer because his poem is based off of pre-existing traditions? That C.S. Lewis was a shit writer because he tossed in all sorts of mythological creatures into his story? Or that a person who writes realistic fiction is less talented than a fantasy author because he doesn't have to do world building? Those are both ridiculous statements. The only thing that matters is if the story makes you want to see the protagonist succeed.

F/SN was created with the idea of heroes from various cultures fighting it out as the backdrop, but that's not the main point. People focus on that stuff because of autism, but the main characters of the story are the Masters. In Fate, yeah, the heroic spirits spent most of their time being amazing and untouchable. But Saber, Rider, and Gilgamesh (and to a lesser extent Caster and Archer) all get fucked by normal fucking humans in UBW, and HF is a bloodbath of epic proportions.

Yeah, it's great to talk shit about how ridiculous the backdrop is, but none of that matters. It's one of those things that you either like or don't like.

Sliding away from that:

This is another one of the things knowing the source material gets:

The original gods were creatures that came to Earth from somewhere else. The names of these original gods has long been lost, and those gods have long since collapsed. In the time that followed, the True Ether in the air of the planet (that is to say, the Reality Marble of Gaia, the planet) caused the divine spirits such as the Babylonian and Greek gods to form essentially in response to mankind needing to punish itself. Very simple gods with only one or two domains tend to be very anti-human, while those that cover a lot of fields in their domain tend to become fond of humans.

It's not a case of "every religion/myth" is real because none of the ones given are fully real. None of the gods stated created the world. As a matter of fact, the "Enuma Elish" used by Gilgamesh that reveals "the truth of the world" shows the molten landscape of Earth from before genesis. The gods bullshitted things for humanity. That said, there is one exception. The Christian God, in the context of the Nasuverse, has been stated to actually be the "Creator God" over everything. The exact details have not been given. And also, while the gods themselves may not have created the world, the heroic spirits of the legends all existed, though the stories themselves may not be perfectly accurate.

Following an (albeit extra-biblical) tradition of King Solomon having control over seventy-two demons, the Nasuverse variant has God giving him ten rings with control over all magic. Prior to this, all magic used by humans came from the gods. King Solomon invented the art of magecraft and passed it down to humanity. This led to the slow replacement of true ether with the ether of the modern day, causing phantasmal beasts to flee to the reverse side of the world and the divine spirits to begin losing authority. This was the end of the age of gods. When the last dragon died at the hands of the Knights of the Round Table, this was the end of the age of mystery, which led to magecraft slowly declining. The current era is the age of man.

Seriously, how much do you actually know about Fate? The stuff you're complaining about is all very pretty much non-issues. If you want something to complain about, bring up how much of a cluster-fuck Apocrypha is from a writing standpoint, how Fragments is completely fucked, or how stupid it is that Labyrinth meant worlds with the organized Death Apostle Ancestors (like Tsukihime) are different than ones with Heroic Spirits (like Fate), or how /Extra doesn't seem to fit either, or what the fuck Grain is, or arguing about Prisma Illya being either pedobait or surprisingly good, or any of the other actual things fans bitch about.

When speaking with Saber about what happened during the Holy Grail War, she says

>the Holy Grail War has ended forever because of the Praetor and will never happen again

So who are the three people the Protag saved? Rin, Rani and Caster?

Nasu kept it purposefully vague since he knew he was retconning two games' worth of material, I suppose.

Also, the narration says:
A bit of author masturbation there. Just Nasu stroking his ego right in your face. It's not as disgusting or brazen as Danganronpa's writer doing it in SDR2, so I can ignore it, but that's what it is.

It was almost as if she had rewritten the world

CHEEKY LITTLE NIP

It's one of my favorite parts.

Actually iirc Nasu explicitly said that the fame boost is not to the degree of "will not make a strong hero weak or a weak hero strong".

And the oldest hero part is quite hilarious when Karna's shit is supposed to be way older. Gil's Vimana supposedly was the prototype for the Indian one, but the Indian legends predate Gil.

There are some theories that Gil got the ball rolling on the Throne of Heroes thing, so while he isn't the chronologically oldest hero, he was still the first one "on record". Though those are really speculation only.

yeah but nero is supposed to be so bad at the arts that she makes a fan fic writer look good so it isnt a good idea to use nero as your mouth piece

I liked Fate's use of Saber as a girl before all the other spin off did it as well; it implied that Saber did get her wish and someone else did become King Arthur.

It's kind of difficult to say what is real and what isn't in TM. Herakles and Medusa afaik never actually existed; they were birthed purely from legends.

The gods of old were manifested concepts that got shoved aside when the Age of Gods ended—the Age of Gods concept being something very intrinsic in Japanese mythology— and everything literally changed. Not just ether stuff, but the laws of physics and nature are literally something defined by the consensus of unconscious perceptions of all humanity.

Also, I'm sure you'd love Dies Irae, that other Japanese visual novel about a secret magical war being fought by historical figures. It has super powered immortal nazis!

Gonna take me a while but I tried to keep it short:
F/Z didn't exist before FSN, mate.

You know full well that's not the same as putting Lovecraft, Shintoism, King Arthur and Solomon in the same world.
I'm almost surprised you didn't mention Dante, though I suppose you already can see how
Most anyone is a better writer than Dante Alighieri and his seminal fan fiction.

No because everything, from the mythological creatures like the Satyr to the Ice Queen to that one king(queen?) who had the power to make people confuse reality with a dream-state - all of this is allegory. The entirety of the Narnia books is essentially C.S. Lewis taking his apologetical (and philosophical) arguments and conveying them via narrative entertainment while utilizing familiar mythological imagery/creatures and mentions of "magic" as replacements for such concepts as the Moral Law, the races of man, temptation, "don't judge by first-appearances", the crucifixion of Jesus, and much more.

Unlike Tolkien, who hated allegory, Lewis saw in allegory the most useful method of conveying essential truths, and so he set about creating a story which was basically the fantasy equivalent to how Nathan the prophet rebuked King David for his evil with Bathsheba and her husband Uriah - an example which, if I recall correctly, he utilized when discussing his appreciation for fiction (or his method of writing, etc.).

Same thing when it comes down to Lewis Carrol's Alice in Wonderland - it's a bizarre fantasy that incorporates external myths (though mostly original) for the sake of weaving a fantastical adventure which harbors allegorical subjects and messages about manipulation, understanding, loneliness, warnings against predatory behavior, etc.

Now tell me: What in the blazing Nero does Nasu intend to convey allegorically through his melding together of entirely desperate and internally contradictory concepts and mythologies? More appropriately, IS he intending to convey anything, allegorically or otherwise, by mushing together Lovecraft, vampires, Solomon, God, Titans, all mythologies, historical figures, etc? Is there a greater purpose behind all this, or did he do this because he thought it would be cool?

There's no comparison there.
That said, there's nothing wrong with doing certain things in a story for the sake of "cool". Not everything needs to be (or should be) allegory, either! Not everyone should attempt to be Lewis or Carrol, and using external sources for races, monsters, etc. is fine since we don't all have to be Tolkien, but ultimately our creative work needs to have a heartl (not just "WOW COOL") and internal consistency.

We need a heart because otherwise everything is empty. Pointless. We care for no characters, no struggle interests us, everything is dead. The story may as well not even exist.

We need internal consistency because otherwise our suspension of disbelief is broken and nothing makes any sense. Nasu creates stories which genuinely have heart. We are given more than enough character, purpose and intruige to have us be invested. Hey, I hate Nasu's constant hackery and routine retcons but I'm still around. Heart matters.
BUT, when you make King Arthur a skinny blond girl and make Attila a female composite computer alien titan, whose very existence devours "civilizations" and "god concepts", who also wields a raindbow light-sword then you've already demanded a lot from the suspension of disbelief.

And yet even this is not internally inconsistent, since, as crazy as all that is, it's simply an alternate version of our reality. It demands a lot of suspension of disbelief, but if it's introduced slowly (as Nasu is very good at doing) then our naturally elastic suspension of disbelief simply expands to cover it. Aliens, supernatural beings and magic can all coexist, even in an alternate version of our reality - IF the world is internally consistent.

There must be an over-arcing mythology and world system which strings this all together, like an invisible spider web. The problem? Well, the less original your concepts, the less freedom you have. Think of it like inviting people into your house. It's not that you won't have room, you do, but you're bound to invite in people who irreconcilably clash with other people, and you can't stop that because they are other people who you invited in. They each have their own baggage, their own characteristics, that you can't just remove. Doing so strips them of what defines them as [thing]. Sparkling vampires is just an example.
What's the alternative? Invite in only those people which can get along together or simply raise your own children to fill your house (make your own concepts).

I'm going on too long about this, but do you get the idea? Aliens and Lovecraft can get along. Hyper-technology and magic with vampires and aliens can get along. But once you bring in multiple mythologies, multiple pantheons of deities, and make all of them REAL, you have a problem that can only be reconciled by stripping them of what defines them, hence why gods in the Nasuverse really aren't gods, and why there are/were living "god concepts", and why the soul is not immortal, etc. But how is a soul a "soul" if it is not immaterial and immortal? How are any of the gods "gods" when none of them are actually real?

Redefining these things in order to escape internal inconsistency just makes it look like a mess, and when you do all this with concepts you did not invent on your own, all external concepts and subjects which were defined well before you were even born, then it just looks like sloppy fanfiction.

And that's Fate: sloppy fan fiction.

That's just from a narrative point of view, though. I could write an essay on how the very foundations of the Laws of Logic break down once you introduce God to a world where "god concepts" are born from a pseudo-reality of the planet wherein entire pantheons of pagan deities are manifested literally, but also kinda not, but also Types exist - and why God would ever create Types is beyond me - and you have to reconcile how Christ Jesus fits into a world like this, unless he doesn't exist, but then you have to explain what the Logos, the very force which extends from God and created all things, even is.
That's not even touching the rest of what you wrote, mate.

And let's not compare this to realistic fiction (which by its very nature is beholden to "reality", ie our reality, and so starts off from a pre-built world which is in principal consistent with itself) or allegorical fiction like Lewis, because the Nasuverse is not allegorical.

If Nasu had renamed everything then everything would be fine because it would all be (mostly) original concepts which he would define from the outset, but all of his world building is comprised of pre-defined and naturally conflicting external sources, all of which carry too much baggage to maintain internal continuity in his world. Worst of all, even remotely touching this teetering tower of confusion near the Christian God just obliterates it all entirely.

What in the blazing Nero does Nasu intend to convey allegorically through his melding together of entirely disparate and internally contradictory concepts
I meant disparate not desperate. Sorry.

Fair enough, I suppose. It bugged me but wasn't a deal-breaker for me.
That's what happens when you don't research your sources properly. I can't understand why so many Japanese authors do this to themselves.

Nasu better get on that quick, then, because Karna is embarrassing him. Though that theory could also explain why Gil is so OP that he can summon himself at-will.

haha Good point. Considering the glowing praise the Protag gives Nero when she retells the story, I'd say Nasu forgot about that when writing this portion. Otherwise I'd say it's a subtle knowing jab at himself for the blatant rectons.

Attila, Alex and Gil are on the same team? Why even bother?

give me a honey select card or whatever

That they weren't a trio ravaging everything in sight really annoyed me. The story isn't so bad, but it's such a waste to have things like this here and yet you barely give most of these larger-than-life characters any role in the story.

Really it feels like Fate meets DBZ, where in the end only Altera, Saber and Caster can do anything substantial (and Gil, but he just doesn't feel like it most of the time). How is Alexander a bit player in all this? He's even on the boxart!

But then again, so is Arturia and she's just an unlockable character with a side story.

Fate souls are weird; you aren't born with them, but you can get one if someone recognizes you as a human being, like happened with Enkidu. The way I've understood it is that your Origin is the dot from which the Soul stems, thus everything that spirals out of it—your appearance, mentality, beliefs, abilities, past etc.—are just an expression of that particular Origin. And then it gets funny because people can change Origins, like Shirou and Ryougi iirc. Hell, in Kaleid, Shirou's Origin got overwritten through possession of the Card, which along with the fact that Miyu essentially brainwashed him into loving her unconditionally makes for some wonderfully horrific implications.

So perception creates substance? How else could this work, that a """"soul"""" is created once someone recognizes you as human?
That is very weird.

Why did he initially do it? Because the backdrop for F/SN was based off of some short stories and notes he did while in high school. Once Tsukihime came out and was successful on its own, he was able to go with the bigger-budget F/SN. Now that Fate is an even bigger cash cow, things like F/GO have come out to put out more of it. He's doing it because he enjoys it.

But in terms of the themes? Let's talk about Fate/Stay Night:

The F/SN VN is about the theme of heroism. The Fate route is an almost typical shounen story that could have been seen everywhere telling the story of boy and girl, master and servant, sheathe and sword. It's about portraying a guy who wants to become a hero. Except obviously there's something a little fucked up about this guy.

Which is where the other two routes come in. UBW is about Shirou actually having to face the fact that his ideal is borrowed, and proving himself as worthy to be a real hero, even if it means he'll only ever be a "faker". It's why he faces off against Gilgamesh at the conclusion. A "true" hero isn't always a savior, while a "fake" one might still be what the world needs. And that's the fate that he's willing to accept, even if it means becoming EMIYA.

HF is the conclusion to the story, where Shirou is forced to turn away from his own ideal and become a different person than his father was. Gilgamesh, Caster, Lancer, and Assassin job hard; Archer, Saber, and Berserker get fucked at different points; only Rider and True Assassin do much anything, and they both serve as plot devices. Almost 80% of the story is the interactions between Shirou, Sakura, Rin, Illya, Zouken, and Kirei, with All the World's Evil looming over the background. And they very last battle isn't some impressive battle between heroes - it's two people, both a few minutes away from dying, battling to see who will give out last.

Notice that none of this has anything to do with the legends and myths. Again, those are backdrops that serve as a useful tool in the background to convey the actual story. Which you would know, if you read the fucking VN.

It hasn't been and won't be clarified, but the prevailing theory behind the Christian God is this:

Everything in the Nasuverse stems from the Root. Humans, mages in particular, are constantly trying to reach the route. One of the characters in Witch on a Holy Night postulates that "God" is actually the first human to reach the Root. Another theory is that God was one of the divine spirits on Gaia, but because of human belief and the spread of Christianity, he retroactively became the actual creator of everything. Which would also explain how the other divine spirits were weakened so dramatically. A side-theory to that is that God becoming Christ made him both God and human, and since humans are the most important thing in the Nasuverse, this by default made him the true "God" over everything.

That's the side part to it: For whatever reason, humans are the most important thing in the Nasuverse. Even though timelines diverge constantly, with certain times marking the "turning points" in human history, those timelines that end in humanity being fucked always wind up getting "trimmed off" before reaching the next "turning point". This has to do with the human order.

(Continued)
The whole plot of Fate/Grand Order is that in the year 2016, something began to go backwards in time, burning away all of human history and creating singularities to fuck up the timeline in each of the major "turning points". As a result, all of human history was wiped away, leaving only Chaldea (which existed outside of time) as everything was vaporized. The truth behind it, as is revealed around half-way through the story, is that Solomon used his second Noble Phantasm, the Temple of Solomon, to create a temple outside of time from which he could work backwards using his third Noble Phantasm to harvest all of the heat production from the planet into bands of light capable of wiping everything away, in order to completely wipe out all of humanity. The anchors, placed at the turning points of history, were his seventy-two demons of the Ars Goetia.

Or at least, that's what you find out half-way through. As you go through, you learn that the Solomon you met was a mirror of sorts, reflecting back the personality of whoever you talked to. You also find a tablet that "someone" saw Solomon as being a cruel person because, despite possessing the greatest wisdom and power, he still allowed human suffering and death to occur in the world.

Which leads to the final conclusion (and note that while the above are very minor spoilers, these are very major ones and literally only a month old): that "someone" was the seventy-two demons. When Solomon died, they possessed his body and the ten rings given to him by God (though in truth, one of those rings was thrown aside). These demons together became "Demon King Goetia", a creature categorized as being under the "Beast" class - the Beast representing the "I" of Original Sin, which is "pity". Goetia, being immortal, could not understand how mortality could be allowed. He gathered the energies of humanity with the intent of remaking a world where mortality wouldn't exist, and everything would be eternal. When you confront Goetia, breaking into Time Temple Solomon with a small army of Heroic Spirits using the magical energy provided by Merlin to summon themselves from the Throne of Heroes, you get there just as he prepares the recreation of the world. After your attempts to stop him prove in vain, the true King Solomon makes his appearance and uses the last ring to invoke his first Noble Phantasm, Ars Nova. Since Goetia was using the power of Solomon and the rings given by God, and not his own power, the counter is for Solomon to do something he hadn't in life - to return the ten rings to God, as well as his own self, removing his name and record from the Throne of Heroes. With Solomon and the rings gone, Goetia becomes mortal and therefore beatable.

I'm leaving out about 70% of what's actually happening in Grand Order because secondaries don't deserve a complete story.

Regarding Gil and Karna:
It's about how old the myths themselves are, not about the time period they're set in. Gilgamesh has the oldest legend in terms of how long it has been told for. How does that make sense? It really doesn't. But that's how the rule works. It's also why the Einzberns though they had pulled a trump called summoning Angra Mainyu, for about the first three minutes before they realized how badly they fucked up.

Medea and Herakles were "real" people in Fate. This is a misconception that's been spread principally by bad translators. Herakles in particular was much more powerful while alive and not subjected to being a Berserker.

The breeze from such a flutter is life's greatest blessing, if only we could harness it to enjoy forever.

Well, regardless of individual cases, it does happen anyhow.

And at the same time we have the rule that fame boosts do not make a strong hero weak or a weak hero strong.

So the ending was better than I expected, but I'm angry that Caster got side-lined instead of being a part of the final fight.

Nasu really has a thing for Saber, it seems.

I'm even more upset that BEST NEW WAIFU IS A LOLI

I CAN'T KEEP MY WAIFU?! SHE JUST DIES, EVEN THE BIGRIG VERSION, AND NOW I HAVE BASTARD BABY!!

''WHY CAN'T I KEEP THE WOMEN I WANT?! WHY YOU GOTTA DO THIS?!

Though considering her backstory it fits and is only upsetting because she was best girl and now she's best daughter.

So far there have been virtually no examples of Heroic Spirits that were fictional in origin. There have been exceptions of sorts like Nursery Rhyme, who is more of a living Reality Marble than a Heroic Spirit, but those are few and far between. Even characters that are fictional in the real world like Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Henry Jekyll are stated to have been real people in the Nasuverse.

I'm fairly certain that I've seen it clarified on places outside of the wiki (which you appear to be quoting) that the thing about fictional heroes was a misinterpretation, but either way, we have never seen a Heroic Spirit that was stated to have not existed in Nasuverse history, in at least one timeline.

But it's obviously a major thing, given that it's mentioned in both the CM and in the VN itself:

It is people's minds that create a hero. People's wishes that "this is how things should be" give them form and set them up as real.

This shit is why Satsuki suffers

Is that really such a bad thing though?

This entire thread reads like fanfiction

You sound surprised

Aren't there literally seven or so variants of her or some shit?

Reminder thay Nasu is a sellout hack and that Fate is shit.

I'm a tertiary who hasn't read the VN or watched enough anime. I briefly ran a quest last year, started on fullchan died on halfchan, that was a Holy Grail War where your servant was Hitler, who was female Rider-class. The protag's magecraft was Ice magic or Entrophy. It was discontinued because I was a bad GM and the player should've died during the 2nd night's battle. I will post this so I can move on. It was Fate/Extra fanfiction.

That's pretty cringe brah.

Probably should have gone Lancer with Spear of Destiny as a NP for Hitler or just plain Caster. In any case he would also basically be guaranteed to get Innocent Monster or Demon King as a skill due how perception has gone ridiculously off the rails to the point many modern people basically see him as Evil incarnate, then again… Spear of Destiny would basically force Berserker to job to him, due the whole slaves to their legends thing.

Fate has more entries and the most recent entries more to talk about, unless you wanna talk Melty Blood sicne teh remake will happen NEVER EVER.

Satsuki is best Tsukihime.

Father forgive him, for he has sinned.

This franchise is garbage and the video games are the worst part of it.

That alien is cute though.

Leave her be. Or do you want a dozen of her clones with differing identities and color schemes?

It's Zelretch. He is one of few characters able to meddle in all alternate universes that Nasuverse consists of.

Wasn't it in CCC where Gilgamesh mindbreaks some chick by disrobing?

You are a game developer. You have a nude model of Gilgamesh for the game. What do?

Secondary please. The only good part about Grand Order is the story from Camelot on. Nobody plays it for fun. Though nobody is going to argue that anything before America was exactly stellar, and some chapters were plain shit.

Best nasu girl!

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How does it feel being so wrong?

Zelretch is not truly immortal. He is just very old. He's already much weaker than he was when he fought Crimson Moon.

Touko isn't immortal either. She's only something like forty years old. Her puppet hax might give her an extended period of time to live, and make it so she can't die when killed, but her soul has a long way to go before decay starts posing a major problem.

The only thing that seems "immortal" in terms of ageing is the gods, but even they can still be killed, and they still seem to have their own limitations. Stheno and Euryale were the closest to this, but they still got eaten. Creatures such as the TYPEs can't be killed, but they can be physically destroyed, and age may or may not be a factor. The True Ancestors were basically immortal in all regards, except that their hunger for blood meant they had to seal themselves away, putting a limit to their limitless lifespan.

In Babylonia, Tiamat as the Beast II was effectively a true immortal. She had no concept of death, and even the divine spirits with you were powerless to hurt her. And age didn't have any affect on her. King Hassan, the Grand Assassin, gives up his status as a "Grand Servant" and steps in with his sword, cutting off her wings while she is the Underworld, and giving her a concept of death (similar to the Black Barrel). With help from Ereshkigal, Merlin, and King Hassan, you're able to get in close and help Gilgamesh blast her with Enuma Elish. Not much less would have worked, since she was immune to any attacks of A++ rank or below.

Last I saw of a story translation Okeanos was the point that they stopped. Are you getting your translation from somewhere or do you just know Japanese?

Translations from the usual suspects. I'm a long way from being able to read Nip. Just don't trust anything posted by Reddit, since you'll get a better idea of the story just looking at the CGs and facial expressions than their shitty translators will get you.

Okeanos is the point where it at least starts to get a little interesting. London adds in the start of the actual plot and has some cool things in it, though it's nothing really special. America is a decent story but also a giant mess because of rewrites and a large throng of characters.

Camelot is the most solid story chapter of the bunch, and it's where the production value skyrockets - the game starts to have some difficult fights for once, the end-game CGs look amazing, and the characters/writing are all decent quality. In contrast, Babylonia starts off at about America-tier in quality, up until the turning point when shit hits the fan, and its conclusion is surprisingly enough not just one of the best things Nasu has done in years, but a good example of gameplay and story integration as well. Overall, Babylonia probably feels the most accurate to the VN in terms of it mixing humorous and serious scenes with a dash of harem thrown in.

I say "one of the best things" because the final chapter is the definitive best. The side interludes from previous chapters put it below Babylonia, but the main story scenes have some of the best art Takeuchi has put out since 2011 and a pretty good conclusion.

Of course, this is coming from someone who likes Fate. Someone who didn't enjoy F/SN definitely isn't going to like the later chapters. It's a shame about the anime - either it gets canceled after Septem because of how absolutely shit Sakurai is, or it fucks up the later chapters with QUALITY.

Can you point me in the direction of your usual suspects? If you could I would really appreciate it.

Wait, Hol' up.

Wasn't Shirou a blank state anyway with the Great Fire? That essentially his past life was burned away and when Kiritsugu found the he was a human shell.

That was somewhat underwhelming. Specially considering who the final boss was, i expected more than a simple "You've gotten stronger",

The main places to go for Nasuverse stuff:

Forums are all over. There are a lot of anime forums or whatever to discuss this, games forums, and so on. As they are forums they're a very high level of cancer.

The largest and most notable is Beast's Lair, which does a lot of translations. Some of these are good, some of them are not as good. Most other places end up crossing over one way or another. The userbase as a whole is too cancerous for a meaningful discussion about anything.

The /fgog/ on cuck/vg/ is probably the best bet in terms of dealing with imageboards, but that comes with everything associated with fucking around in the land of great censors. It's probably your best option in order to get things in real time, though, and they at least have the decency to organize stuff in pastebins.

If you're browsing here, Reddit and other places (like social media fangroups) shouldn't be an option, but such things do exist, if you like unreliable TLs and concentrated cancer.

Different Shirou. Alternate universe.

So it's an ongoing struggle then. Thanks for the advice buddy.

Best Girl, coming through!

This all happened after Kerry died, so the fire by that point is irrelevant.

I played the original VN, but why does Type Moon keep getting bloated up with more shit? Is that an MMO or what.

Sony took over. The real Nasu has been locked in Sony's basement and is gifted ps4s and free games down a chute

It's a musou

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