Used to be THE superhero. Now he's behind Batman, Spider-Man, Miles Morales, Wonder Woman, X-Men, Iron Man, Captain America, Ant Man, Harley Quinn, Dr. Strange. What went so wrong?
What went wrong
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>>115920756I really don’t want to bag on Zack Snyder because I doubt anyone in his position would’ve been able to do a better job. But he was a huge part of what went wrong so . . . there’s that. There’s also the fact that as a superhero he can’t take a strong stance on any topical issue without alienating the audience and because of his iconic status the people who own the rights to him don’t want that to happen.
>>115920756Why do we have to have this thread every day? Nothing of value is ever said in it. The question is too vague. Why don't you ask something else?
>>115920788It's not like Superman was the top guy before Snyder.
>>115920788Snyder is fantastic at rendering established works into film format, but should be kept far away from the script. He did a great job with 300 and Watchmen because the script was already there ready to be made, I really liked his zombie movie too.
He needs a new cartoon to get the appeal of kids.
>>115920788Anyone else think Warner killed his daughter because he made shit movies?
>>115920756>lol i'm a good guyYeah everyone assumes their favorite hero is good, there's nothing impressive about this anymore. Batman fans love their guy and think he's heroic. Wonder Woman fans love their girl and think she's heroic. The whole notion that he's good-er than your hero is what DC likes to push to elevate his status above the others, but that feels like something that doesn't sit well as anymore as Superman has done piss all to inspire people for decades now. Sorry, the death of Superman often rings hollow these days for this reason.
>>115920756Shitty adaptations and Bendis. But there's nothing wrong with Superman
>>115920756He is simply a boring character that is not looked upon kindly in modern times.Its not helped by how his fanbase absolutely deny there is anything wrong or that society and other people who don't like Superman are the problem.The overtly jesusification and sacred cowness has ruined big blue.Now all the new edgy characters have surpassed him.
>>115921494>He is simply a boring character that is not looked upon kindly in modern times.Horseshit. You like MCU Cap, you like Superman
>>115920756The minute DC stops writing him as perfect at everything and having no flaws because of all his powers the more open people will be to liking him.Look at GokuDumb as a rock and all powerful but all of japan loves himLook at Luffysame thing Shonen protagonists should be the mold Superman is going for Not boring as shit golden age values
>>115921538>The minute DC stops writing him as perfect at everything and having no flaws because of all his powers the more open people will be to liking him.>this meme again
>>115921535You autists love to scream MCU cap but can't wrap your head around the fact that there's more movies after first avenger.All that old time values bs that you saw in first avenger and avengers is gone by the time of end game and that's why people like MCU cap he is a nuanced character who evolves not a piece of stone who stagnates and doesn't develop
>>115921593oh hey looks like >>115921494was right Superman fans really do literally stick their fingers in their ears towards every criticism
>>115921605>can't wrap your head around the fact that there's more movies after first avengerWhat? Cap has remained the best character in the MCU consistently. >Old time values goneYou're so full of shit.
>>115920756You LITERALLY just make a thread about this.And yesterday, you made two threads like this.What is your deal here? Do you want a "Why isn't Superman even more popular" general thread?
>>115920756Ironically the Donner movies.
>>115921605That shit that just came out your mouth needs to go back up your ass boy.Captain America faced down the American government in the name of Truth, Justice, and the American Way in The Winter Soldier.In Age of Ultron he did piss all, admittedly. He was just there for old fashioned morals jokes. Like Superman.In Civil War he was about protecting people, including heroes, even if it meant going against the other Avengers. His only morally grey moment was lying to one friend to save another. At the end of it all, he says, despite trying to kill my friend, ruined my life, and are imprisoning the people who helped me, if you need my help, I'll come running.In Infinity War literally his entire story is "I will not trade one life, even for half the universe".Then in Endgame he's giving big speches about how people have to try harder and fight harder than ever before.
>>115921126Goyer is largely to blame for the script. Snyder's directing style doesn't fit Superman anyway. He likes Frank Frazzetta and you can tell in his movies, which is fine, but some IPs aren't a good fit for that visual style.
>>115921836Or maybe Superman is a bad character because you can't tell any other story with him. With Batman, you can do a goofy silver age story, noir, horror, sci fi, espionage, action.
The fact that OP takes joy in this endless charade is both pathetic and sad
>>115921605MCU Cap is an idealist through and through in his movies. That's the whole point of his civil war stance.
>>115920893Because they are made to harvest (you)s
>MUH MCU CapThe only Cap movie that had a bigger domestic box office than "Man of Steel" is the one with all the Avengers in it.If MCU Cap is massively more popular than DCEU Superman, the numbers sure didn't show it.
>>115921903Assuming you're right, you confuse one genre and one story. James Bond only really fits espionage but that doesn't stop him from having dozens of stories.The best Superman stories imo is when he can't resolve the conflict by punching it really hard.
>>115920756Aquaman too arguably
>>115921975How did you pit this retarded non-existing conflict in your head?
>>115920756He's really boring. I grew up when it was basically just Superman and Batman and even then he was the lame one. Nowadays other heroes are getting their shot to shine too in the mainstream while he continues to just coast off of that emblem on his chest.
I think Superman is the hero of the future. When this dark and grim SJW era is over it will be because people want real heroes with real values instead of "tolerance" and social "justice".
He is still the Super Hero most people think of when someone mentions "Super Hero". He's just not a popular as Batman at the moment.>Batman fans love their guy and think he's heroic. Wonder Woman fans love their girl and think she's heroic.But unlike both of those, Superman actually is Heroic.
>>115922033What conflict?OP makes this thread 3 times per day, and in every thread one of the first comments always is "but muh MCU Cap is so awesome and popular".How exactly are we measuring MCU Cap popularity? Cap books sell worse than Superman books. Of the 3 Cap MCU movies, only one got a bigger domestic BO than Man of Steel (the one with Spider-Man and Iron Man in it).So what is it that makes MCU Captain America this juggernaut of pop culture, if he can't reach Superman numbers by himself? What metric are we using?
>>115920756>What went so wrong?Frank miller and Anime happened.
>>115922137>AnimeAnother weird-ass measure.The biggest anime movie can't touch "Man of Steel".
>>115921836Snyder apologist defence force, standing by.
>>115922064Superman will be a full blown SJW himself before that era is over, when the right writer gets their hands on him. Likely black too.
>>115922100People actually liking him. The only people who like DCEU Supes are people who think Superman sucks.
They should do a Superman run like Dove and Hawk or Green Arrow and Green Lantern. Team him up with someone with the opposite view and see what happens. Batman could work since he is grim dark now. But it would probably be better with someone more far out. Maybe Black Adam?
>>115922442Well, I will need a source on that.Do you have it?
>>115922071>He is still the Super Hero most people think of when someone mentions "Super Hero".AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
Stop making him into Christ archetype. Laymen don’t like going to church, they’re just compelled to by tradition.
>>115922193>The biggest anime movie can't touch "Man of Steel".I mean more of a, Superman should be more like "current battle shounen."
>>115922319No I very much hate Snyder's style of directing, but I also hate Goyer's writing style, and I can recognize Snyder's style is a decent fit for shallow stories about buff barechested men standing against a brown background with a weapon in their hand, because that's ultimately what he likes.
>>115922498The biggest current battle shonen can't touch "Man of Steel".Happy?Take the BO of Dragon Ball and My Hero Academia movies, let's see how they compare.
>>115922529I Like Superman more than Captain America. So your source isn't helping you.
>>115922419Superman was fighting union busters in the 30s and telling people to not discriminate against Japanese-Americans in the 40s.
>>115920756Superman no longer appeals to our values. Being clever, smug, and snarky has become more important than being a good person. Superman is for people that are ready to believe in good, so it's no wonder he isn't popular in a society overrun with cynical and hedonistic nihilism.
>>115922551That's not the point.
>>115922572By what measure of popularity Superman isn't popular?We still need to decide on that.
>>115922587The mainstream consensus. Normalfags don't care about Superman. They'd much rather have smug alchoholic Tony Stark.
>>115922713>The mainstream consensus.And how do you measure that?Aren't normalfags the ones that pay to watch movies? Why the first 2 Captain America movies failed to bring more americans to theaters than "Man of Steel"?
>>115921535>>115921535MCU Cap has more going for him than Superman. Superman is some schmuck from redneck town that landed on godly powers at birth and occasionally will use it to save the world when he's not busy making kissy faces at his beloved Lois Lane because well if he didn't, he's kind of being a dick and should fuck off.MCU Cap is seen as a gritty underdog, a "fighter" that runs around in the trenches dangerously risking his life, so to speak. So in a way, a decent portion of his appeal also comes from the same "fuck yeah humanity" appeal of Batman that Superman doesn't receive because he's Superman whose reputation is being overpowered.
>>115922806>MCU Cap is seen as a gritty underdog,Yeah, the same guy that is somehow strong enough to beat Iron Man in his armor able to shrug off the impact of supersonic jets.The underdog.
>>115920756He stopped being a working class hero and got reduced to a foreign nobleman with a palace and public authority talking about "the big picture" and "what's best for the world"Bring back the immigrant worker who can't be bribed or injured or swayed with rhetoric, putting the mortal fear into ceo's, industrialists and politicians that there's no lawyer in the world that could stop the man in trunks from picking them up and carrying them all the way to timbuktu if they don't cut back on the civil rights violations
>>115922554Yeah and it's 2020, Bub. Since then we've had Wonder Woman commenting in her books on how Superman and her really don't have much in common because she sees him as the upholder of humanity, a safeguard for the status quo because he's not a shepherd of humanity, he just likes to protect them from things that want to kill them.
>>115922920>He stopped being a working class heroHah.How many of the MCU heroes have a job?
>>115920756It all comes down to the movies. If Superman III had never flopped, he’d still be on top.
>>115922806>UnderdogBullshit he is. The guy can hold down a helicopter, and fight Iron Man with his bare hands
>>115923019"B-b-b-b-b-but he doesn't fly and he isn't bulletproof" is the usual excuse.Which is a bullshit excuse because it isn't relevant to the fights they fight. In all his fights, Captain America always have the upper hand.
>>115922447Superman/Batman was already a series
>>115922767>And how do you measure that?Simply observe mainstream conversations about superheroes. Normalfags find Superman boring and prefer snarky asshole heroes. Or edgy antiheroes. Or both. Man of Steel came out seven years ago. Society was far less jaded in 2013.
>>115920756boring boomer character, superman more like mary sue-perman
>>115922920Reading about civil rights violations, corrupt landlords and evil bosses isn't particularly interesting for most people, especially with a character as powerful as Superman as your protagonist. A godlike being bullying people into behaving in accordance with the writer's morality would get old very fast. There's a reason the comics moved away from that and to villains that could actually challenge Superman in some way, or to soap opera drama, and it's because those make for better stories.
>>115923273>Simply observe mainstream conversations about superheroes.Ah, so it's literally nothing? You should have said it at the start of the conversation.Why your anecdotal evidence doesn't translate into bigger BO or sales numbers for Captain America? He is only more popular among people that aren't willing to spend money on him?
He's generic af
>>115923329I never said anything about Captain America. He isn't the type of hero people get hyped for nowadays either.
>>115923436>I never said anything about Captain America. He isn't the type of hero people get hyped for nowadays either.You should tell that to the people that always post about the "massive popularity" of MCU Cap in literally all "What went wrong with Superman" posts.
>>115923233batman/superman was also >>115923436great bait m8youtube.com
>>115923528>"People liked Captain America holding Thor's hammer! See! This is proof of the massive popularity of the character!!!"Grasping at straws, huh?
>>115923320>A godlike being bullying people into behaving This is the problem with that. Hell it's this idea that sort of leads into "what if Superman just bullied humanity with his powers aka evil Supes" because he'd be bullying us setting up Batman as its defender.
>>115920756No weaknesses. Kryptonite and magic barely fase him these days
>>115923483MCU Cap is only popular because the MCU in general is popular. On an individual character level, normalfags want Deadpool.
>>115923578>No weaknessesOn the contrary. Superman is literally one of the only Superheroes with weaknesses.Thor doesn't have weaknesses. Captain Marvel doesn't have weaknesses. Vision doesn't have weaknesses. Silver Surfer doesn't have either.Never a single person has complained about their lack of weaknesses.But Superman, that has 10 weaknesses? "WWWUUUUAAAAAAH WHERE ARE HIS WEAKNESSES?!".
>>115923620(Conti.) This is one thing that no one will ever be able to explain. Why all the characters that are as powerful or more powerful than Superman don't need to have weaknesses, but Superman and Superman alone, having an horizon of weaknesses, still get's the "no weaknesses" complaint.No one here will be able to explain it, including this user >>115923578
>>115923329Cap's 2nd movie did do better.
How much would you bet these threads are spammed by the same guy that cried about Dr.Doom for years?
>>115923273didn't Warner tentatives to turn Superman in this failed really hard ?
>>115920756>Miles MoralesStopped reading right there. Fuck off, no one cares about your shitty nigger, Bendis.
>>115924126considering that he mentions the same Dr. Doom in his post, I can see that
>>115921265>Sorry, the death of Superman often rings hollow these days for this reasonWhat does Death of Superman/Reign of the Supermen have to do with whether Superman can still be inspiring? It was a gimmicky cash grab storyline from 30 years ago that had basically no long term impact. Has very little to do with where Supes has been in the last 15 or so.
>>115921198Warner Bros Paramilitary Groups like The Coca-Cola Company Colombian Death Squad.
>>115922063>I grew up when it was basically just Superman and BatmanThe 1930s?
>>115920756The left got a strange hold on media and culture and promote a anti american bias Superman is a very american character so he must be bad
>>115922447Pair him with Terra.
>>115921975TWS made $30,000,000 more than MoS.
>>115922071How is Wonder Woman not heroic?
>>115925830WW is usually heroic, but at times the Amazons aren't and the popularity of Injustice didn't help her image either.
>>115920756>Miles Morales>Ant Man>Harley Quinn>Doctor StrangeThat's blatantly false.
>>115925875>the popularity of Injustice didn't help her image eitherYou could literally say the same thing for Superman.
>>115925813All on chinese money.MoS made $100,000,000 more than TWS in the US.
>>115920756>What went wrong>cannon pedophile
>>115925903Injustice hurt Superman and WW but Superman got the worse of it.
>>115926648for me, Injustice made me enjoy superman more, the first game, I liked the real superman telling the evil superman that he was a faggot
>>115926648Eh not really. They try to shift some of the blame off of Superman like they always do. There’s no real reason with Diana besides she’s just a terrible person from the bottom of her heart and often comments sections are just filled with people hating her In particular. It’s nothing new. Even Waid with KC later admit, yeah, I made Diana look extra bad because I don’t know Wonder Woman and Superman’s character needed her to be that way.
>>115926795I heard it was because steve trevor was a nazi in that world
Everybody wants to use him for moral grandstanding or have him be the dad they never had. It would help if people would remember to make him and his adventures exciting again
But what is it that makes his good stories good? The original Superman was a power fantasy, but a lot have happened since then. Does the more human and relatable Superman of today really work for good stories? Does it even make sense to talk about him as human and at the same time as an ideal? Is the best Superman in that case a fullblown Space Jesus, a perfect human?
>>115920931That’s kinda the point. He had the opportunity to make a good Superman and remind people why they liked the character. Now they are just full of discord
>>115927289>Is the best Superman in that case a fullblown Space Jesus, a perfect human?
>>115927289>Is the best Superman in that case a fullblown Space Jesus, a perfect human?The answer is clear, and obvious.Superman is best when he’s what he was defined to be. Just a full blown hero. No ifs, ands or buts. He’s a hero through and through. The more heroic the feat, the more Superman he is.
>>115927438Exactly. I think one has to admit that the Superman that Superman fans want is Space Jesus-Superman.Without symbolism, constant sacrifices and religious connections (he can of course be a Christian), just a perfect human, the ideal man.
>>115927629>Exactly. I think one has to admit that the Superman that Superman fans want is Space Jesus-SupermanIs that what you saw, when you saw him comforting a suicidal woman?
>>115920756>behind Miles Morales, Wonder Woman, X-Men, Iron Man, Captain America, Ant Man, Harley Quinn, Dr. Strange.lmao no one knows them aside from nerds
>>115922572>Being clever, smug, and snarky has become more important than being a good person. Superman is for people that are ready to believe in good, so it's no wonder he isn't popular in a society overrun with cynical and hedonistic nihilism.Jesus fucking Christ you Supefags are delusional and insecure as fuck.>we live in a society
Don't ask me, I've sworn off DC forever. This time I won't come crawling back, fuck this company and fuck these characters. Time to go full Marvel baby. I've read Spider-man, I'm reading Daredevil, and I'm experiencing I haven't felt while reading DC in years; joy.
>>115925875WW's shitty image is due to Superman's editorial team. They've been responsible for making her a 2nd rate character to prop up Supes.
>>115929446>Boredevil>joyHow does it feel to read poor imitations of Miller's run over and over? Unless you're reading Waid's run, in which case you have better taste than the average Daredevilfag.
>>115929461I never read any of those so it's all new to me. Guy's a total mess, hard to believe he was fighting supervillains at some point.
>>115929461Too bad Waid can't write.
>>115925903See, but Injustice sorta played off “LOOK EVIL SUPERMAN!”, yet Diana was the more manipulative and downright sociopathic of the two compared to Supes who was just deranged
>>115920756It's almost like the medium has grown since the 1930s and now he is just some washed up fag.Outside of nostalgia what's even Supermans appeal? Punching hard? Being a nice guy?