Why do they keep presenting this character as admirable?

>>114940456>that drop like flies against swamp-dwelling civilians who haven't waged war in forever.But the Gungans DID have a standing army and a warrior culture. One they kept in practice while the Naboo on the surface played pretty pretty princess with their political leaders and relied on the Galactic Senate. Boss Nass should take over planetary affairs of Naboo.

>>114940732'keeping in practice' is not hardly the same as experiencing an actual war.

>>114940435At least Holdo had the decency of dying and being useful when dying. Suyin ALMOST learned a lesson about how shitty she was to Kuvira before the latter sucks her dick and says “No, it’s all my fault”.

>>114940456>that drop like flies against swamp-dwelling civiliansThe droids beat the shit out of the gungans, you dumb faggot. It was only because Anakin destroyed the control ship that the droids deactivated and lost the battle.

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>>114940435>>114941013But did she do anything wrong though? Like I get that parts of a captains job is to keep the crew calm but they are under no obligation to tell the crew anything are they?

>>114941048>But did she do anything wrong thoughShe didn't need to tell the crew anything, she just needed to say something along the lines of "I know you are all scared, but I got this covered, trust me we got a plan" instead of acting like a unprofessional cunt all the time

>>114941048The big problem with the movie is that we're expected to believe that Poe is in the wrong the entire time... but we're given no contradictory evidence to show that Poe IS wrong until the end, where it's revealed what her plan was. At the very least, include a scene where Poe isn't around, where Holdo at least indicates that she's working on SOMETHING.

>>114941048It's to run the crew. That means knowing everything going on on the ship, and keeping everyone in line and with high-enough morale. She failed because her crew felt so put-upon by her secrecy (which wasn't kept out of necessity but out of some sort of personal issue with Poe) that they mutinied. All she had to do was tell Poe, which much of the crew trusted as a de facto leader, that she had a plan but that the nature of the plan required secrecy. Instead, she stonewalled him and justified it with, "I'm pulling rank." Bad leaders do that. Vindictive authority figures do that. She was both.

>>114940319I thought you retards were supposed to like traditional family values. Suyin had a stable, loving marriage and 4 kids.

>>114941157I'd say it's clear that none of the crew liked her. Look, they are just ignoring the mutiny in the middle of the hangar

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>>114940319>>114941235The best part about Holdo is that it's canon that she was a coward who was attempting to run away at the end. She took out the First Order fleet totally by accident.

>>114940425Like Cersei?

>>114941310That is kind of what happened to Cersei once they ran out of/started ignoring book material. D&D took "Cersei is a delusional, paranoid alcoholic unaware that she's destroying herself" and interpreted it as "haha smug lady smirk and sip wine".

>>114941337Yeah, I heard that they changed her character a lot. She just seemed to be popular with that crowd.

>>114940319Poor writing, if Holdo was a man the character would have still sucked.

>>114941309Since her plan relied on the First Order to not be constantly scanning their ship for fuel, lifeforms or cloaking, i'd say she's also stupid

>>114941337>" and interpreted it as "haha smug lady smirk and sip wine".And then proceeded to destroy herself even more.

>>114941337>Cersei blowing up the sept.>Brilliant.>Cersei not suffering ANY consequences from blowing up the sept, but instead benefiting from it.>Are you fucking kidding me

>>114941406She was on an insane winning streak until literally the last hour of the show though. Blew up the sept of baelor with no consequences, assumed direct control of Westeros with no significant opposition, smashed Dany's fleets and armies with ease...it was just the dragons at the end that did her in. The show makes Cersei out to be some Tywin-tier mastermind blessed with perfect luck, it's ridiculous.

>>114941416>>114941466Blowing up the sept cost her the last child she had.

>>114940319Because Men need to be taught a lesson!

>>114940412>too oldlol she died at 60. She was a fucking baby when they filmed Star Wars. She just couldn't be fucking bothered to care but even so no one seems to have a bad word to say about her. Hamil would give her shit because they forcibly slimmed his fat ass down to the best shape he's ever been in years but she'd just tell the trainers to fuck off

Why are these characters boring?

>>114940435I honestly thought she was a Imperial spy when i watched it for the first time

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>>114941506Doesn't seem to bother her all that much, when Jamie confronts her about it she says Tommen betrayed them and is all happy about popping out another kid.

>>114941506I think he was talking about political and social consequences that the books and the show always tried to establish as natural part of big events.

>>114940319fuck off mommy suyin cant be compared to holdo

>>114941551Tried and failed multiple times

>>114941181they get mad at surface level thingsthey dont actually know the shows/films/games they get mad about

>>114941520Based.

>>114940319They aren't that much alike.The problem with Holdo is that she is presented as an antagonistic character for most of the movie that constantly belittles and hides information from one of the protagonists to the point that he tries to make up his own plan to save everyone's lives (keep in mind that this plan takes more than half the movie) only for it to turn out that she had a plan all along.The main problem with Suyin is that she advocates so much for the murder of her adopted daughter after she becomes Earth Hitler despite her entire backstory being someone that fixed her life after being spared from going to prison.

>>114941048She got mutiny'd so she did plenty of wrong.

>>114941048If she died the plan would die with her and the entire fleet would be fucked.

>>114941235What the fuck was Rian thinking when he ok'd John Williams scoring this as a triumphant and epic moment if we were meant to see Holdo as a hero and the actual heroic character as being in the wrong?

>>114941124She literally did that in her first scene. They framed it so it felt off and so Dameron wouldn't trust her. I was able to figure out what they were doing with her almost immediately. Shit's not that hard, it's fucking Star Wars after all

>>114941527She definitely slimmed down too compared to how fat she used to be before

>>114941337Book Cersie thinking her clothes aren't fitting right because the washmaids are fucking up instead of realizing she's middle aged and alcohol fat just like the husband she hated is solid gold.

>>114941773They framed her as a traitor that Poe needed to get rid of in order for the entire casino planet subplot to even make sense and for Poe to do anything in the movie.Sacrificing Poe and Finn for the sake of Holdo and Rose is the main reason why they failed so much as characters.

>>114941907She didn't affect the Casino planet shit at all considering they could just fuck off and jump to and from the capital ship without anyone knowing anyway. As loathe as I am to quote that SUBVERTING EXPECTATIONS meme shit with TLJ Holdo and Poe's plot is literally that. It's really basic shit that you'd see in a children's cartoon about misjudging people. I love the maneuver itself but hated that they decided to give Poe the idiot ball to make the scene work. Hell Finn and Poe were wasted on TLJ. The only thing I like about RoS is that they went back to being fucking bros doing cool space shit again

>tfw hated last jedi but appreciated it at the same time for trying something different instead of self-feliating itself >movie rise of skywalker just takes the franchise back to sucking itself off

>>114942117I appreciated the Kylo/Rey stuff and would have even liked Luke's plot if he had a better shot at redeeming himself than just being a hologram distraction and then dying.But everything involving Poe/Holdo and Finn/Rose was a huge waste of time.

>>114942269The best thing TLJ did was make Kylo his own man. Then RoS literally had him put his stupid mask back together

>>114942117It's not like it was a choice between the bullshit we got and self-felating. They could have done something else.

>why aren't high-level commanding officers in a military organization providing their subordinates with detailed explanations of their plans to avoid hurting their feefees?

>>114941577Too true.

>>114941310Cersei is hot though

>>114942419>They could have done something else.They blew that when they decided to make Empire 2.0. vs Rebels 2.0. the main plot

>>114942448stop same faging

>>114942426Seriously, how is that a complaint? Some people really don't know how a military works.

>>114942528>>114942426I feel like these are written by the same person

>>114941337You can make any narrative decision sound ridiculous if you turn it into a strawman. Cersei's character was very consistent.

>>114942477Force Awakens was an overly-timid and imitative start to the new series, but they (or he, Johnson) didn't have to make "Empire Strikes Back 2 + bits of Return of the Jedi and some dogshit". The villains were badly defeated at the end of the first movie and there's no reason to think they still have huge reserves of power after that. Make the second movie about the heroes having to track down a fleeing and sneaky enemy. Just reversing it to "the Republic Strikes Back" is at least a LITTLE interesting.

>>114941527To hear Hamill tell it he did it purely on his own for what he thought was gonna be a lengthy appearance in 8I don't care who made Hamill work out they need to keep at itWe got the best Joker from him in years because of it

>>114942592>The villains were badly defeated at the end of the first movie and there's no reason to think they still have huge reserves of power after thatlol they didn't. We're literally watching the aftermath of blowing up Starkiller base because it's an immediate sequel and the FO is pretty much just down the command ship and the few others, which also gets taken out due to Poe and Holdo. RoS is the film that decided none of that mattered and put both sides back at square one

>>114942657No shit. He went from "The Joker's too hard to do anymore" to "Oh wait it was actually just because I was a fat fuck who smokes two packs a day"

>>114942703Liar

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>>114942555>strawmanWaste of trips, learn the meaning of words.

>>114942719I thought what happened was "Oh shit they can just hire a soundalike which means that I'm going to miss easy money"

>>114942545I too refuse to believe someone so stupid might have a buddy in this place.

>>114942752I remember watching that at the cinema and instantly getting angry, confused and asking myself If I missed a movie along the line.

>>114942545Because they are. They also don't understand this is not the U.S military and in fact made up of the last part of the resistance which is currently under the plan of "just die lol." What's funny is that Poe's plan WAS superior and would have worked if they used proper parking.

>>114940572Yeah, I bet they do.

>>114942545Probably. I know I've seen actual officers IRL pretty much mock the way Holdo is presented in the movie.>>114942805>proper parkingRLM really had a point when they compared it to a comedy of errors.

>>114942757Probably a little bit of both.

>>114942426When your orders do nothing but create confusion and distrust among your senior ranking officers, that's bad leadership.This isn't a sergeant telling grunts to move over a ridge.Poe is one of the best pilots they have.

>>114941374But they weren't, it took DJ or whatever his name was telling them their plan to have them actually scan their ship.

>>114942426High-level commanding officers first and foremost task is maintaining morale, even more so during conflict. They don't need to tell everybody everything, but it's their duty to make sure that everybody is paddling in the same direction, and at least giving the impression that the higher-ups know what they are doing. EVEN MORE SO when there's a high mutiny risk. Holdo was incompetent and petty, and wasn't fit for her position.

>>114941048She was an extremely ineffective leader even if she did nothing "wrong". At the end she and Leia remark that they actually like Poe and his attitude, and that just makes her look like more of an idiot for how she handled all her previous interactions with him. Insulting and disregarding him, and doing nothing to reassure the crew there was a plan, creating obvious setup for a mutiny. Or if she actually thought Poe was insubordinate she should have done something to prevent him from scheming with his fellow like-minded crewmembers.

>>114940319>admirable?It's spelled 'admiral'.

>>114941689Suyin is basically hypocrisy personified.>So what if I committed crimes and scarred you? Just get over it lol!>What!? My adopted daughter dares to try to save the kingdom from falling apart even though I said no? FUCK HER! DISOWNED!>What!? Now she showed up at my likely ill-gotten city? KILL HER IMMEDIATELY! WHY AREN'T YOU KILLING HER AVATAR!? Fuck it I am going to ignore the cease fire and try to assassinate my adopted daughter in her sleep. I'll even get my kids to help! What could go wrong?>My son was more actively malicious during the campaign and was the one primarily responsible for building their super weapon of his own volition because he was pissed off at daddy? Ahh he gets a pass. He's MY son after all. My adopted daughter who genuinely wanted to make the EK better when nobody else would step up? Nah she can fucking rot in jail until she decides to kiss my ass in the comics lol.I was waiting for Korra or Lin to hard call her out on her horseshit but that was expecting too much.

>>114942944If your plan rely on your enemy to be incompetent, then it's not a good plan

>>114942752Fuck what the fucking crawl says, it was filmed as an immediate sequel by Johnson's own word. It's the whole reason why they're pulling out of !Yavin at the start of the film

>>114942757He had been saying he was done unless they did Killing Joke for like half a decade by the time Lucas started work on the ST. Hell he was actually the lone naysayer to his initial proposal specifically because he was still a fat shit when Lucas brought them all together to pitch it

>>114942426Coming from someone who's never served, this is hilarioust. Milfag

>>114941048Yes. Morale and unit cohesion are of major importance in military operations. However, the problem with the film is that Holdo is entirely correct, she's under no obligation to inform Poe of anything since not only did he just get demoted for ignoring orders and insubordination but he's also completely irrelevant in terms of carrying out her plan. The real issue is that the film itself is incoherent in presentation. Poe was objectively correct to ignore orders and destroy the dreadnought, but only because of later developments in the film that he couldn't have been aware of. Once Holdo is put in command he immediately begins undermining her authority by carrying out unauthorized operations using what is apparently their only hyperspace capable small craft and withholding vital information from her. And despite everything taking place on the same spaceship, he somehow manages to miss the crew and cargo of the other ships being transferred or them being loaded into the transport craft when he stages his mutiny - which notably only includes the remnants of his unit and no one else. And the film treats all of this as a learning lesson for him with Holdo and Leia shrugging it off with a laugh. Presentation is a major factor in it too. Holdo, aside from looking massively out of place with purple hair and evening dress, is a military stock character; she's the stuffed shirt, the pompous, preening officer who more concerned with rank and subordination than competency. We were given narrative shorthand to dislike her. Poe is Poe, audiences already knew Poe, they liked Poe. If you're going to subvert expectations about Holdo and put her in the right, then not only does she need to be correct but Poe has to make the objectively wrong call and Poe's plan was never shown to be a mistake, just a failure.

>>114942752That shit is still extremely jarring if you dare to watch TFA and TLJ back-to-back. It's fucking insulting.

>>114942426Gee, what military organization at what time do you think the Resistance is based on?

>>114943072So your argument is 200% based on your own headcanon, despite said headcanon contradicting all official material?

>>114941337Yeah Cersei as a concept is much better than Cersei the actual character.

>>114943147>Poe was objectively correct to ignore orders and destroy the dreadnought, but only because of later developments in the film that he couldn't have been aware of.He called it a "fleet killer", which seems to implies the rebel fleet was in immediate danger if it wasn't destroyed right away. Leia doesn't offer any arguments to the contrary and just slaps him.

Why is the entirety of TLJ just both sides trying to make worse decisions than the other?

>>114943147>he stages his mutiny - which notably only includes the remnants of his unit and no one elseDidn't look like anyone else cared. >>114941235Also, wasn't the girl on the left also a bridge officer or something?

>>114943284Because Rian Johnson didn't want to make a space adventure film and thinks spitting in your eye makes him clever.

>>114943286Yeah, that's Carrie Fisher's daughter IIRC.

>>114942805Poe's plan was terrible. It involved sending two people to find a guy whose identity they did not know who could be anywhere on a planet then convince him to help them break into the flagship of the First Order and deactivate a hyperspace tracker so everyone else could escape and all within 18 hours.>>114942703>>114942790>>114943072Even if the FO only had a handful of Star Destroyers left after Starkiller was destroyed that still puts them massively ahead of the NR's zero ships and the Resistance's three glorified transports. Seriously, look up the differences in canon armament between the ships.

>>114940319>doesn't bother to tell one her most important soldiers the plan and treats him like shit the entire time>soldier rightfully tries to find a way to save themselves and tries to take over when she is seemingly leading them to their death>oh wait it turns out she does have a plan and soldier gets shot because she couldn't have been bothered to say what her plan was>now she gets a cool sacrificial death to mark how she was actually a good person even though her character was made to be as unlikable and stupid as possible >turns out the plan was awful anyway and only a small shipful of people survive in the endHow did nobody realize how bad this character was?

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>>114943284It's hard to write characters that are smarter than yourself

>>114943222Word of the director isn't headcanon holy shit, the second scene is literally continuing from the end of the first film with Rey trying to hand Anakin's saber back to Luke. What the fuck more do you need to know that the films are occurring back to back?

>>114943286Looked it up

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>>114943311i loved when people tried to rationalize your first point by saying a strong woman leader doesnt need to tell her entitled male underlings what the plan is

>>114943060Opal is just as fucking bad>Screeches like a harpy at Kuvira and at Bolin for working with her even though at that point all she’d done was use somewhat coercive measures on local governments>continues to screech at him and shun Bolin after he escapes and makes it clear he was eventually being threatened and kept against his will>holds their relationship hostage and coerces him into helping save her dumbshit family Every single Beifong except Lin is such fucking trash it’s unbelievable

>>114943308>deactivate a hyperspace trackerThat doesn't even work right because they keep fucking jumping right in front of them and they don't even notice because lol

>>114943358We might have talked past each other, i was refering to>"the FO is pretty much just down the command ship and the few others"which is a straight up lie

>>114943384>Lin is the only good Beifong>Constantly gets screwed over in pretty much every single instance

>>114943070Considering the guy in charge was tricked by a "your mom" joke, it was probably the best plan they could come up with.

>FO fleet begins surface bombardment instead of destroying ships in orbit>fighters aren't already out and doing the same>Resistance sends out probably the worst designed bombers in the known universe>tries to pull them back halfway even though they're slow as shit and made of paper>Resistance manages to get away due to FO incompetence>FO engages in slow speed chase instead of cutting them off>FO destroys the hangar/all snub fighters>doesn't send TIEs because Hux is a retard

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>>114943267The Resistance fleet was ready to hyperspace away which was why he was given the recall order. The hyperspace tracker made destroying it the right call, but no one knew about that.>>114943295It's the same storybeats as ESB, it's just not done as well. Abrams is the one who despises space and everything about it to the point that his ST films actually invalidated the concept of space travel within the setting.

>>114942426Poe was the highest ranking person who wasn't just appointed. He should be the first one to know because he is the most trusted man on the ship.

>>114943470Which raises the question of why the dreadnaught attacked the planet instead of the fleet when the latter was clearly about to get away.

>>114943383Poe was entitled, but not in the way most people argue. It's all about his relationship with Leia. He ignores her direct orders and she shrugs it off, his punishment being a demotion that apparently she's done numerous times before and always walks back on to the point that their confrontation scene is fairly lighthearted and implies that's it's little more than a formality that will have no impact on his role within Resistance command.

>>114943460Don't forget that Hux specifically calls Kylo back because they can't cover him despite Hux despising Kylo.>>114943624An even better question is why didn't the two Star Destroyers simply deploy fighters and press the attack. The dreadnought was only a few minutes away.

>>114941181>>114941577>the cope is realpol/ maybe, but lot of people all across the political spectrum hate tlj and lok

>>114942117I like that RoS made even normies understand what watching Aldnoah.Zero was like.They almost did something really, really cool.

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>>114943147>she's under no obligation to inform Poe of anything since not only did he just get demoted for ignoring orders and insubordination but he's also completely irrelevant in terms of carrying out her plan.Procedurally, no. Practically, yes. Because he had enough people on his side to mutiny. So the fact that he was able to fuck with her plan just by existing on her ship means that he either needed to be killed or looped in.

>>114943907Or he just needed to be told that there was, in fact, a plan, but that for the time being secrecy was important. Instead of being a vain cunt for no reason.

>>114943425She remained butthurt at Tenzin for years for dumping her after the relationship turned south and she refused to have kids with him that would save his dying race

>>114941527>Hamil would give her shit because they forcibly slimmed his fat ass down to the best shape he's ever been in years but she'd just tell the trainers to fuck offBasted if true.

>>114943907>>114943946A major issue with with the film is that we only see Holdo from Poe's point of view. We never see any other people having negative interactions with her.

>>114943060In recent official comic Suyin actually helped Korra to free Kuvira, "because everybody deserves a second chance", or some shit like that.

>>114943147>Poe was objectively correct to ignore orders and destroy the dreadnought, but only because of later developments in the film that he couldn't have been aware ofAnon, Dreadnought was literally powering up to shoot at Rebel cruiser in the movie.The whole point of Poe doing his space dance and destroying AA guns on the big ship was to prepare the way for bomb run.Why "general" Organa suddenly decided to abandon the whole plan is anybody's guess, but it was and is stupid.

>>114941048Let's make a list>Withheld critical information from the crew and most of her officers for reasons that could be summed up as 'fuck you, I'm in charge'>Failed to maintain morale >Failed to maintain discipline>Failed to head off an extremely obvious and easily preventable mutiny in a time of crisis>Her 'master plan' was contingent on the First Order not looking out their windows at any time during the escape or deducing that they abandoned ship for the planet that they just passed by>Master Plan would have failed anyway, since Leia's plea to the Galaxy was ignored, dooming everybody anyway>Attempted to flee like a coward because the Hyperspace Ram is apparently so unlikely to work as to be deemed unusable

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>>114944137Do Zaheer and Ozai get second chances?

>>114943460Not sending the TIE fighters out in that always confused me. They should have hundreds of thousands of TIE fighters they could swarm and overwhelm the Resistance ships, they are supposed all thats left of a resistance against First Order rule, they can sacrifice maybe a few hundred TIEs to take them down and not make a dent in the TIEs they should have on the Supremacy alone.

>>114944116She's fundamentally a newly appointed officer waving her authority around to dickslap the old officer. We can assume that, because nobody resists the old officer's coup, she has garnered little to no sympathy from the crew.

>>114944212Because they were ready to hyperspace away at that point. Even within the context of the film the battle took out most of the Resistance fighters after the AA guns were destroyed.

>>114944137Yes but only after Kuvira had to kiss everyone's ass even though she was hardly wrong. The ultimate outcome was Suyin basically doing the same thing she did for her own son (ie getting them off basically scot free) but to Kuvira's benefit this time because she kissed ass enough and saved the day (which she would have do near the start but Korra and her dumbass pals treat her like she is worse than hitler and get fucked over because of it). Suyin just got what she wanted again.

>>114944238Ya know this gif makes it look like Dio is explaining to Jonathan how to kill a dog

>>114943425>>114944137She also helped them put down a crisis and demonstrated that she's repentant and not interested in chasing power again>>114944260Meanwhile Zaheer and Ozai never expressed any particular remorse that I'm aware of. Zaheer's only been in jail for a couple of years so who knows if they'll ever consider parole or house arrest like Kuvira

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>>114943311She also appears literally from nowhere and becomes a leader.She is so unknown that even Poe who worked closely with both Leia and Ackbar is like "uh, I think I heard about you?"

>>114944014Obviously it is not just that. Seriously she gets screwed over constantly-Tenzin thing not working out-Taking everyone's shit as chief of police-Gets facially scarred by her own sister only for her to get off with no real punishment and having her mom retire-Sacrifices herself to save the last of the airbenders from the equalists only for that to end up being completely pointless-Kicked to the curb in later seasons-She is the one who has to end up apologizing to Suyin because lol why you so angry?What the fuck did they have against Lin?

>>114940319TLOK very intentionally highlighted Su's flaws, the show just doesn't treat her as if she was PURE EVIL like some people want. Hondo is a shit nothing character I couldn't even tell you what her personality is.

>>114943470Those slow-ass bombers would still have had to get back, during which time the dreadnought could have easily obliterated the fleet as it waited for them to return

>>114944262That's the kind of bullshit you get when you don't do your homework and just pull numbers out of your ass when the plot demands it. In the span of 3 movies we don't have any idea of how big the FO really is, how big the New Republic force was or why they let the FO become so big. We don't know where those ships come from, when did they train their troopers or where did they get their experience from. It's magic evil that pops out of nowhere and disappears once the victory theme is played.

>>114944274She was already a vice-admiral who had been around since the GCW, she was the highest ranking member of command once Kylo blew up the bridge. Furthermore, Poe's coup fails pretty much immediately because it's literally just >>114941235 and they're more or less reduced to barricading themselves in a room within a couple of minutes. Trying to argue that Holdo was unpopular because no one resisted Poe's coup runs into the reality that no one supported Poe's coup either.

>>114943460>>doesn't send TIEs because Hux is a retardDid you miss when Hux said "Ren, pull back, we cannot cover fighters from this range" after Space Leia scene?This implies that fighters should operate only in the very close proximity of capital ships, and this is complete bullshit.Cover from what?The capital ship that was just severly damaged and is clearly not able to defend itself from small fighters?Or maybe the Resistance fighters that were destroyed en masse moments before by Kylo Ren....We should just stop digging deeper and deeper into this pile of manure that TLJ is.

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>>114944353>Meanwhile Zaheer and Ozai never expressed any particular remorse that I'm aware of.He actually did express some remorse in season 2 because he saw that his actions led to the rise of Kuvira.

>>114944500Another flaw of the film is that all Resistance fighters are hyperspace capable; they don't need to return to their ships, just a predetermined area so the fleet can reorganize away from combat.

>>114944450>TLOK very intentionally highlighted Su's flawsThe problem is she didn't suffer any consequences while Lin did all the time even when Lin wasn't at fault.

>>114944502Nobody knows who the fuck she was

>>114944450No it didn't. Su gets every perk imaginable and the show treats her like she is 100% the good guy. She never once faces any meaningful consequences for her actions. The only times something like that happens is when her own assassination attempt fails and the Lin fiasco. For the former she gets bailed out by the Avatar and doesn't even get chewed out for ignoring Korra about not starting shit and simply wait to collaborate with her. The latter ended up with Lin having to apologize for some inane reason

>>114944428Lin is also a very angry bitter selfish loner that chose to make herself miserable instead of fixing things up >She is the one who has to end up apologizing to Suyin because lol why you so angry?Suyin does apologize to Lin. Lin only apologizes for snapping at Opal just for being related to Suyin.

>>114944238>Her 'master plan' was contingent on the First Order not looking out their windows at any time during the escape This is what bugs me. Star Wars ships are always so fucking close to each other that sensor-cloaking is a waste of time. Someone on all those ships would have seen several dozen fatass escape pods leaving the ship.

>>114942117TLJ wasted an entire movies time worth of plotting and ignored TFA, people are way too kind to TLJ

>>114944279>Even within the context of the film the battle took out most of the Resistance fighters after the AA guns were destroyed.With another asspull, we might add.A round of TIE pinball, anyone?

>>114943102It's so strange to think back on it now but him showing up in Arkham Knight was a huge fucking surprise because he made a big deal about being done after City and had actually been done up until I guess he realized that he could still go now that he was healthy

>>114944604She was the captain of one of the other ships in the fleet.

>>114940319Suyin is one thing but Holdo is arguably leagues worse than Suyin. I can't think of a single person I've ever interacted with that actually liked Holdo.

>>114942117I'd agree if what we got was in any way competently constructed, conceived, or executed. Instead we got a movie where the only way the plot moves forward is if someone does something utterly retardedIt's an idiot plot wearing the skin of a feature film

>>114940401It doesn’t take an American to understand that democratic-libertarianism is the greatest form of government.

>>114944589In regard to the Lin-Su feud, it wasn't Su that was bringing Lin down she was bringing herself down. She's wallowing in her anger for decades Su and Toph tried to get her to meet up but she wanted nothing to do with it. Lin's allowed to feel this way but it was obvious it was at her own detriment, making herself miserable, even yelling at Opal for no reason. When she allowed herself to open a dialogue up with Su that's when she started to heal. And other than this feud, I don't know what you're talking about. Su spent almost a whole season in jail because of her mistakes the one season she was more than a supporting minor character.

>>114944260Men villains don’t get second chances.

>TLJ presents Holdo's hyperspace attack as some heroic last stand>TROS tells us that it was a one-in-a-million shotLogically, the conclusion to be drawn is that Holdo's a coward who was using the rest of the Resistance as bait for her escape, but RNGsus saw what she was doing and punished her accordingly

>>114944589>>114944626She suffered the consequences of getting kicked out from her home, after that she does fix up her life and says that she would have ended up in prison if she hadn't done so.

>>114944656Not just the bombers, most of the X- and A-Wings too. It's pretty much a case of the dreadnought not actually being needed.

>>114944626There's literally a scene where Miss Perfect Pants Jinora tells us Su is a dumb bitch, and we see her prickly attitude over and over. The show gave Kuvira a line where she blasts her for not stepping up despite her always preaching how she wants the Earth Kingdom to become more modern. The show told us her solution to Kuvira "GO INTO THE AVATAR STATE AND WASTE HER ARMY" was wrong.

>>114944699She is supposed to be viceadmiral and next in line of command after Ackbar.And she looks and acts like goddamn substitute teacher....You know what?She is exactly that.An obnoxious substitute teacher, trying to impose her authority on class that doesnt know and trust her.

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>>114944713Suyin wasn't a democratic-libertarian, she was an autocrat and something of an Objectivist. >>114944733If she was running away why was she aiming for the Supremacy?

>>114944733My headcanon is it was the force punishing her for being a cunt. Still kinda baffled about how little real talk about the nature of the force is there in the sequels. It's treated like a tool and little else.

>>114944699Exactly, nobody knows who the fuck she is

>>114941876Yeah I loved that too

>>114944770The costume design in the ST is pretty bad in general. Leia's space businesswear was line, but everyone else looks like they did their shopping at a Soviet thrift store.

>>114943384How did Bryke write Lin so good and every other Beifong so terrible? Toph, Suyin, Suyin’s demonspawn? Each of them are written like creators pets / sues

>>114941544I honestly thought ROSE was an Imperial spy.

>>114944640Suyin's "apology" was half assed. It amounted to "look I said I was sorry, why don't you just get over it. Mom did!"Yeah it is real easy for the cunt who made out like a bandit (literally) to be chill about the whole ordeal. She didn't come off as really remorseful and it is hard to take her seriously when the instant something inconveniences her she wants to fuck it over. Then she gets pissy when the world doesn't immediately bend over backwards for her or someone doesn't kiss her ass.>>114944734Yeah and she got everything back and more in like two days because she has the avatar on speed dial and for some reason gets to decide everyone's punishment. Now if Bataar Jr. had to end up going to jail at the end and suffer the same punishment as Kuvira, then THAT would be an actual lasting consequence for Suyin. That didn't happen though and he just got to go back home with her to her perfect city.

>>114944733You know that line was only thrown to give some retarded explanation to why don't they just have kamikaze droids destroying all of the Empire's large ships.

>>114941579 I do hope you know that i was just shitposting

>>114944793>Still kinda baffled about how little real talk about the nature of the force is there in the sequels. It's treated like a tool and little else.Wow it's almost like Disney doesn't give half a shit about all that stuff and only wants to make formulaic blockbusters

>>114944786Holdo running away is a product of TROS. In TLJ it is absolutely read as a heroic sacrifice, but it also broke space battles in the sense that the Star Wars universe has droids capable of flying ships, so why not purchase a few A-Wings, man them with droids and snipe the bridge of the enemy ship with a hyper space kamikaze, or take out their engines? TROS tried to fix this by saying a one in million chance are the odds of such a maneuver working, but that means that Holdo’s big sacrificial moment of TLJ can easily be read as a last minute escape plan because there’s a million to one chance that she’ll just blow past the First Order as they destroy the whole Resistance.

>>114944843That wasn't the apology, this was:>I'm sorry I gave you such a hard time when we were younger. I can't imagine what my life would've been like if Mom hadn't sent me away, if I had stayed in the city ...She isn't chill about the whole ordeal, she acknowledges that she was in the wrong, that if she had kept acting that way she would have self destroyed and that Toph's punishment rehabilitated her which is what punishments are supposed to do.

>>114944833Rose being a FO spy wouldn't take much to pull off. The only issue is that the once she gets arrested at Canto Bight the FO would more or less need to be playing along with the mission for no real reason.I'm actually plotting out a post-ST SW tabletop scenario where Rose was not only a spy, she was working for an internal FO faction backing Hux over Kylo.

>>114944877Didn’t the droids that also doubled as ships have personal hyper space drives at the end of the Clone Wars or did they need the hyper space rings as well? Someone could easily revive that design and have an unstoppable army.

>>114944877>>114944963Interdictors and gravity well generators already existed in setting so I don't see why you could base a handwave off them. But I think the actual intent was that she was always going to ram them, it's just her being able to sweet spot it as a relativistic kill rather than a simple collision was the one-in-a-million. Lord knows Abrams didn't care.

>>114945006Do we even know what's the smallest hyperspace drive in the universe? I'd wager that you could very easily manufacture hyperdrive torpedoes and fire them by the dozen.

>>114945068Abrams not caring would have been for the best but he was so desperate to fix the things fans didn't like from The Last Jedi that he ended up making his own movie and the rest of the trilogy even more of a clusterfuck

>>114945068>Rian Johnson didn't careftfyDipshit actually veto'd the test screening because he didn't want Disney to force him to direct a coherent movie

>>114944991>hard timeShe facially scarred her and got away with everything. You are also acting like she stopped when she was sent away. She did not change and remained a criminal for a good fucking while after being sent away and it is likely how she ended up with her fortune and city. That was her proverbial "retirement" from the crime business since she had everything she could ever want. Obviously it is easy to be chill about it when she basically won.She just happened to get ultra fucking lucky being sent away rather than staying in the city and remaining an average criminal. Then again, given how much everything seems to try to benefit her she likely would have ended up being a crime lord and secret ruler of the city had she stayed.

>>114940425this

>>114945120>tfw we didn't have this set up and a plot of Chief of Police Lin VS Crime Syndicate Leader Su with Korra being caught in the middle and Toph possibly showing up to beat both their asses.

>>114945068I don’t think those devices have ever been introduced into the movies themselves. I it would have been better if TROS went with an explanation that the hyper space kamikaze was a brutal old fashioned tactic that those devices were meant to stop, but fell out of use since no one used that tactic anymore, and the devices are seeing a resurgence of installations into ships due to Holdo’s maneuver. I think Hold intended to ram them too, but her intent is voided by the revelation in TROS that the kamikaze was one in a million since the chances of success were next to nothing, the odds being a million to one that she would de facto flee from battle and be unable to turn around and hyper space back.

>>114940802yeah, but at least you'll be a little more prepared.

>>114943311Yeah, the whole "She had a plan and was under no obligation to share" thing falls apart when literally 20 Rebels were the only survivors. Holdo failed utterly.

>>114945120>She facially scarred her and got away with everythingShe got kicked out of her own home permanently and then fixed up her life. Do you need her to be physically maimed to make up for an accident, her petty attention whore crimes and her shitty attitude? You might as well be asking for Azula to be beheaded

Holdo did invent the hyperspace missile which will likely change the future of space warfare to come. That feel when you’re going to hear about the “Holdo Missile” in a future Star Wars story because of this character and movie..

>hyperjumping a space ship is enough to singlehandedly destroy an entire fleetSo why isn't this a more common tactic?

>>114941048It's not exactly like a written rule, unless you count The Art of War which I think has a passage on this, but it's still shitty. Poe asks multiple times what the plan is, and if they even have a plan to begin with, and her excuses are dodgy as fuck. And another thing, nothing wrong comes from telling him the plan, and there's a million things that could go wrong if she doesn't. If she had just told him, he wouldn't have sent Finn and Rose off to casino planet, they wouldn't have met up with Benicio Del Toro, he wouldn't have betrayed them, and the plan wouldn't have been fucked over, leaving the rebels at a fraction of their already dwindling numbers. Pretty much everything bad that happens results from her randomly deciding to be a bitch to Poe for no reason, and it's all for the sake of the audience rather than the characters or the universe, so we could get that moment of "Ha, gotcha, you thought she was a traitor/incompetent the whole time, but she was actually super right about everything." And of course so we can pad out an already extremely bloated movie because fuck it, we gotta do something with these characters.

>>114945406>Ha, gotcha, you thoughtThat's the essence of TLJ.And it's terrible. (And still predictable most of the time)

>>114945381Because it breaks the universe

>>114945253They're canon to DisneyWars through Rebels. Also the whole "Holdo was trying to escape" headcanon hinges on her turning the ship 180 degrees and charging the enemy fleet rather than simply hitting the hyperdrive. Plus saying a last stand doesn't count because it didn't have any chance to succeed is kinda missing the point of why they're called last stands. The whole things reeks of people inventing reasons to dislike the movies instead of focusing on the actual problems in the movie. A lot of arguments against Holdo feel that way. There are a bunch of issues with the character from an in-universe and meta perspective that are pushed to the wayside in favor of these headcanons. You want a headcanon that actually works with what is presented? Holdo is never informed of the hyperspace tracker; considering that it's brand new technology, the only logical assumption she could have made was that there was a FO mole in the Resistance who planted a tracking device. It completely explains her actions under the need to compartmentalize and withhold as much information as possible, and turns the conflict between her and Poe into a clash of personalities.

>>114945644>saying a last stand doesn't count because it didn't have any chance to succeed is kinda missing the point of why they're called last standsSorry, but the facts as presented in TROS very clearly paint her as almost certainly a coward. It's not our headcanon, that's what the movie told us.There's a difference between "no a chance of success" and "99.9999% chance I escape, 0.0001% chance that I die and take them with me"Also,>Holdo is never informed of the hyperspace trackerSo you're telling me that she had every reason to believe that once she hyperspaced away, the First Order couldn't find her and would instead focus on the lifeboats full of rebels that just left her ship?

>>114945282>>114945406The issue with that line of thinking is that he didn't mutiny until after she told him the plan and he then immediately told the plan to Finn which in turn got overheard by DJ who rats them out to the FO a couple minutes later.

>>114945733The entire point was that the lifeboats would make landfall while cloaked as the FO pursued and destroyed the Raddus. People forget that the FO was literally told her plan by del Toro.

>>114945644The fact that hyperspace rams haven't been a thing for the thousands of years hyperdrives have been around suggests that they never work. It would be like expecting your car to fly when you hit the gas pedal. What was she trying to do if the odds of it working were astronomically low and the odds of her escaping astronomically high?

>>114945734The plan wasn't simply to shove everyone off in the transport ships and hope for the best, it was to head to the hidden rebel planet (this is still stupid because how is a fucking planet hidden) cloaked while their main ship stays behind as cover (this is also stupid because why in the world would life scanning technology only scan for whether or not life is present rather than the density of it). Let's ignore the stupids and pretend this all works, if Holdo had just told Poe that when he saw the transports being loaded instead of expecting him to put himself and everyone he cares about on what's essentially a suicide run on blind faith alone, nothing bad would have happened. He mutinied after he saw that her best effort was suicidal, and she made no rebuttal or clarification. She was willing to let the entire rebellion die because she REALLY wanted to prove a point to Poe.

>>114945350She moved in with her rich relatives. Not really that much of a punishment. Then she fucked off and continued her criminal ways.

>>114943311Don't forget that she was apparently flirting with Poe. This is what Rian Johnson thinks is flirting.

>>114945734He mutinied before they told him the plan, that's exactly why he mutinied. It was after the mutiny failed that he told Finn and Rose Holdo's plan, which in turn exposed their plan to the FO.But that brings us back to Holdo's pettiness and obstinance being the sole reason Finn and Rose were in a position to expose their plan to the FO in the first place

>>114940319

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>>114945854>Rian Johnson>Numale par excellence>Thinks constant berating, condescension, naked contempt, and brow-beating is how women express affectionSounds about right

>>114940412I guess you could say she was a Holdover.

>>114945350She suffered no meaningful consequences is the problem. Kicked out of her home? Gets moved in with her rich grandparents. Have her city occupied? Get it back in short order and more along with having more potential influence with the new shift in EK policy. Now losing Bataar Jr would have been a fitting consequence that could have stuck and tie back to her own past. Bataar Jr was a criminal who did all he did for a primarily petty reason. Have him get fucked over and sent to the slammer along with Kuvira no matter what strings Suyin attempted to pull.With this she loses her precious son to similar shit that she got weaseled out of in the past and can't get him back. I mean obviously war crimes is on a different level than what she did in Republic City but you get my meaning.

>>114940412>Carrie Fisher was too old and too much on drugs to play Leia awake in episode 8I wonder how blatant it was that she was whacked out during film making. No way she was all there in all her scenes.

>>114946107It’s evident by how little she actually knew what Leia’s role in the movie was other than “General”. And they REALLY wanted to have her front and center for part 3 to cement Rey as the new face of Star Wars with an endorsement.

>>114946353So you're telling me she died a hero instead of living long enough to see herself become the villain?

>>114946461Well she went out from a drug overdose after a lifetime of drug abuse, it’s not exactly heroic.

>>114945350She deserved to have her ass throw into jail for some time not have her police chief mommy to bend (heh) all rules and get her off scot-free.>You might as well be asking for Azula to be beheadedYes.

>>114945381Most sci-fi don't have 'real' faster than light travel. It's almost always some kind of cheat to bypass it, like hyperspace (before Disney) or warp travel or stargates. That's because being able to speed stuff up to way over 299 792 458 m/s presents some big problems when it comes to the writing.But Rian don't care about such details, so he fucked over the setting by making it possible.

>>114945381Because it waS invented for spectacle so when your stupid monkey brain sees the big flash of light and explosion it goes >OOOOOOHH COOL!

>>114945381Because Jonson is a fucking retard and KK is even more retarded for letting him direct the second movie in the trilogy instead of sticking with JJ the whole way through.

>>114940319Amazing job presenting 2 examples from all of media/literature/movies/TV/comics/pop culture.

>>114946814JJ said no, what else could she do but go with a director who would take the project?

>>114946875Maybe find a director with more accredited successes than A theater release and a bunch of Sundance tripe?Maybe provide even the tiniest bit of oversight and creative control?Maybe have a series bible and order of events planned out for him to adhere to rather than just let him torpedo the whole thing with his obsession with creating polarizing content?Maybe she could have done HER JOB?

>>114946963>maybe she could have done HER JOB?But that sounds like a lot of work, user

>>114946592There’s some serious dark comedy in how Lucasfilm wanted to use Carries to help sell Rey to the audience but she died being an old drug addict 2/3 of the way through

>>114945465It's predictable because a lot of the time you can just examine your assumptions and invert them and that's what he goes with.Just doing the opposite of what people expect isn't 'subverting expectations', it's petty contrarianism

>>114947036>Lucasfilm wanted to use Carries to help sell Rey to the audienceIt's not like they already used Han, Luke and Chewie for that.

>>114946963>Maybe find a director with more accredited successes than A theater release and a bunch of Sundance tripe?Nobody else wanted the job>Maybe provide even the tiniest bit of oversight and creative control?No time for that, there’s a movie to make and put in theaters!>Maybe have a series bible and order of events planned out for him to adhere to rather than just let him torpedo the whole thing with his obsession with creating polarizing content?They literally threw out the library of universe building content because they thought it was too daunting.>Maybe she could have done HER JOB?That woman didn’t get into the position she has by doing a good job, she’s an operator and has been ever since Spielberg took her on and she went from assistant to producer.

>>114945381The Raddus is a freaking huge ship in Canon, about three times longer than an Imperial II Star Destroyer. It severely disabled The Supremacy by sheer luck that The Supremecy was ignoring the Raddus instead of focusing it's fire on it, and that the rest of the FO fleet was mostly lined up behind it, did it get the chance to take out as many ships as it did.Going by this, you'd need to ram ships of similar sizes against the enemy to destroy them and you'd have to get in close enough into their range of fire to make a properly aimed jump (you never see ships jumping into hyperspace in front of Asteroid Belts, do you?). Even then it's a Pyrrhic victory since both sides are losing the same amount of resources. It worked for Holdo because of desperation and overconfidence (or incompetence) of the enemy.

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>>114947088Han didn’t give as much of a nod to Rey, it was more about Kylo. Cherie was barely used and Luke was poorly used.

>>114947207>you'd need to ram ships of similar sizes against the enemy to destroy themWhat gave you that idea? The Raddus was the only example, and it not only crippled a much more advanced ship several thousand times its mass, but it merced the entire fleet behind it.Using a ship the size of the Raddus was overkill, and the only reason the Mega-star destroyer wasn't completely destroyed is because Holdo sucks at aiming, a center-mass hit would have killed it.People saying the Hyperspace Ram isn't cost-effective have no fucking clue what they're talking aboutAlso, Star Wars is full of examples of ships dropping out of hyperspace essentially right next to their targets. Just do that, only instead of ineffectual lasers, fire hyperdrive-equipped missiles by the dozen and have them fuck up the expensive dreadnought with multiple consecutive strikes.

>>114943311Because we were at a high point of Trump living in peoples heads rent free back when this movie was being written and every movie or story arc got tainted by it generally.Rather than a conflict between a superior officer and a lower ranked officer the movie tries to present it as, what's really being said is this is a conflict between a man and a woman and the man not listening to the woman who is under no obligation to explain herself because she is right.

>>114947036All I want to know is when she got back into the sauce. Must've been when she started making Disney money.

>>114947468>stoppedHAHAHAHAHA

>>114947427>>114947427>Because we were at a high point of Trump living in peoples heads rent free back when this movie was being written and every movie or story arc got tainted by it generally.we should have listened to themthey were warnings and now we're paying the price for our hubristrump lied, people died

>>114947591the only people who are affected by who the president is white rich liberals and conservatives every president fucks everyone else over equally

>>114947468She never stopped, heroin put her in the hospital and her heart atrophied after a lifetime of drug abuse finally gave out.

>>114947591He’s going to get re-elected at any rate.

>>114947662I am so voting independent this year

>>114947351>what gave you that idea?Because it's the only truly in-canon example of hyperspace ramming that we have?>it not only crippled a much more advanced ship several thousand times its mass, but it merced the entire fleet behind it.I literally explained that that was because both The Raddus is in-canon, a pretty huge ship, and the overconfidence of the FO, and how they arranged their ships.>Using a ship the size of the Raddus was overkillWhat draws you to that conclusion? Holdo is the only in-universe example that we have right now (High Republic might do something about this though, we'll just have to wait).>People saying the Hyperspace Ram isn't cost-effective have no fucking clue what they're talking aboutThere wasn't exactly much of The Raddus left after it hit, now was there? In that case, Japanese Kamikazi pilots are perfectly fine tactics, and not at all wasteful of resources.>Star Wars is full of examples of ships dropping out of hyperspace essentially right next to their targets.Han straight up says in his line about dusting crops that if, "you don't have the right calculations it'll cut your trip real short." So there is clearly more to hyperspace than just pulling a lever.

>>114947722>In that case, Japanese Kamikaze pilots are perfectly fine tactics, and not at all wasteful of resources.except that in the movie you only needed one ship to destroy a whole fleet. >Han straight up says in his line about dusting crops that if, "you don't have the right calculations it'll cut your trip real short." So there is clearly more to hyperspace than just pulling a lever.that's only more reasons to have a hyperspace missile

>>114943871And what, pray-tell, was that "something really cool?"

>>114947681

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>>114947207>you'd need to ram ships of similar sizes against the enemy to destroy themHow big is a bullet compared to a person?

>>114947591t. CCP

>>114947722>In that case, Japanese Kamikazi pilots are perfectly fine tactics, and not at all wasteful of resources.Kamikaze tactics were a highly efficient use of resources. All the good pilots who could fight a conventional air-war were already dead.

>>114940319At least Su-yin is married with several kids, and doesn't mistreat the men in her life.

>>114947722>There wasn't exactly much of The Raddus left after it hit, now was there? In that case, Japanese Kamikazi pilots are perfectly fine tactics, and not at all wasteful of resources.You don't have to have a pilot, you don't even have to use a ship. Strap a starfighter hyperdrive and a droid onto a chunk of metal and you've got something infinitely more deadly than any conventional weapon in the setting. It doesn't even have to kill whole fleets, just severely damage a single ship with a single missile. It'd be a whole lot cheaper than building a comparable battleship or training hordes of fighter pilots when you could smash a completely disposable munition into the target and achieve the exact same result>Han straight up says in his line about dusting crops that if, "you don't have the right calculations it'll cut your trip real short." So there is clearly more to hyperspace than just pulling a lever.They use computers to calculate that shit, droid brains, not people.Regardless, that's only if you want to exist hyperspace intact, which isn't a concern for something that only has to destroy something while going into hyperspaceMoot point, the idea was retarded from the get-go and has been swept under the rug because it breaks the setting

>>114940319Don't you dare compare Lin to the annoying granny

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>>114947828Comparable to the Raddus and the Mega-Ship, mass-wise.I mean, that ship was fucking HUGE

>>114948113That's not even Lin

>>114940319It's a lazy way to get your "sacrifice" moment for a story.

>>114948113>bends metal sheet into armorHey, that's pretty sma–>only covers her back and leaves her chest, abdomen, and groin completely exposedFucking garbage

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>>114944713Oh please user a direct democracy is honestly retarded. It is too open to corruption via mob rule or oligarchs appealing to the lowest common denominator. There's a reason the US is a constitutional republic and has an electoral college.>hur dur the US is shit compared to European nationsYeah and nearly every nation in Europe has reorganized multiple times during the US's existence because of how shitty their governments were.

>>114941309no way they retconned her to being a coward?

>>114948169kuvira has the same armor and i don't see you shitting on her.

>>114948189>Oh please user a direct democracy is honestly retarded. It is too open to corruption via mob rule or oligarchs appealing to the lowest common denominator."Corruption via mob rules"? If that's corruption then literally every system is open to corruption because all that means is that it's not operating ideally.>There's a reason the US is a constitutional republic and has an electoral college.Yeah look how that worked out for you. "Too open for corruption" are you even paying attention to your own life.

>>114940319

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>>114948432to be fair she had a plan, but poe had to be a shithead and fuck it all up.

>>114948216Not exactly. They said that the Holdo maneuver had a one in a million chance of actually succeeding to try to handwave why the hell doesn't everybody use the tactic in every conflict and why the fuck would you need planet-destroying weapons etc. Since JJ's retarded, and for some fucking reason they hired the BvS's writer to help, they failed to connect the dots and that the logical conclusion to that fact would be that Holdo was just trying to escape with the biggest ship they had while leaving all her allies like sitting ducks. To add insult to injury, we see somebody use the same tactic in the background a little later because why the fuck not

>>114948444Her plan was bullshit, got everyone killed, and she didnt tell poe because he had a penis

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>>114948466>To add insult to injury, we see somebody use the same tactic in the background a little later because why the fuck notwhen?

>>114948516During the mandatory " 'member EWOOOKS?" scene no less

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>>114948582Why couldnt nu-wars have cool aliens like jabba and the ewoks

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>>114948361>She's not retarded if this other character is retardedHaving two morons in one room doesn't cancel out the stupidity

>>114948693Because that's too silly and it's a lot of hard work. One of the few things RoS did right was embracing a little more the sillier alien designs. Too little, too late, but still.

>>114948476except we saw that the deaths of most of the rebels were due to poe.

>>114948693wait isn't that just a gug from Unknown Kadath?

>>114948754No it was because of holdo and her stupid man hating plan

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>>114948754how do you figure? Those bombers and their crews were dead the second they launched, if anything Poe allowed that one to destroy a dreadnought

>>114948754What movie did you see user?

>>114948582Jesus Christ what a trainwreck of a franchise

>>114948582fuck

>>114948754You mean the guy that was the only reason any of them made it out alive? You complete potato.

>>114948693Fuck the Ewoks.

>>114942426>why aren't high-level commanding officers in a military organization providing their subordinates with detailed explanations of their plansThat is precisely the problem, why didn't she?

name one thing good to come out of modern star wars

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>>114942752Man, so many issues stem from taking place immediately after it TFA rather than giving space between films like every other film does.

>>114949503I liked this guy from solo, but because the modern toyline is shit he never got an action figure

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>>114949299>fuck the ewoksWould if I could

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>>114942752>The first order reignsHOW? WHY? WHEN?You know you're in for a ride when a movie's first 4 words are already wrong

>>114949747It honestly would have been better if the crawl started with "The New Republic sure regrets not ratifying that 'build any kind of military whatsoever' bill!"Because holy shit, once solar system gets capped and suddenly a galaxy-spanning bureaucracy composed of millions of worlds comes crashing down. Were all their servers on those six or so planets?

>>114943296with luke.

When I first saw the movie I thought Holdo was supposed to be that snooty officer that bosses the main character around then either dies horribly or redeems themselves at the end. Kind of like that Lieutenant from Aliens. When she did her lightspeed shit I was like "Oh, ok there it was".Then when I read how many people loved her I was a little shocked. I mean why was this big bad admiral wearing a ball gown instead of a uniform? Everyone else had a uniform.

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>>114949820I know they tried to avoid focusing too much on "space politics stuff" since it was one of the main complains on the prequels, but the complete lack of background information just hurts the sequels big time. I can't take the FO seriously if I don't know how much of a threat they are, how numerous they are and where did they get so much power from. In the same way, I can't give a fuck about the New Republic if I don't know if they are even doing a good work or not, how strong in numbers they really are or why the fuck they let the FO become so big in the first place. My conclusion is that, while the FO wasn't a desirable alternative, the new republic wasn't working at fucking all, but we know nothing after 3 whole movies.

>>114949940The weirdest thing about Star Wars and its proRepublic/Democracy characters is often times it's the corruption and incompetence of the Republic that brings about its own demise time and time again. Like in every era, in the prequels, in the Old Republic, in the sequel trilogy.

>>114949580Anon, you'd get the same result by putting a fleshlight in a teddy bear.

>>114949940The complete lack of background info or politics is why i hated TFA. Nothing is ever explained at all. Why the need for a resistance when the new republic exsists.

>>114950062I don't know what kind of pussy game ewoks have. For all I know, they could have complete muscle control down there.

>>114949980Well, at least you could excuse Prequel republic since it had been going for twenty-five thousand years, and required a crazy-ass conspiracy to bring it down. I'd say that's pretty good. The new republic lasted, what 30 years? And all it took was to blow a couple of planets with a planet-sized superweapon nobody could fucking see coming?

>>114950128Also, I'd say they doubled down on the FO being stands-in for Nazis while the original Empire wasn't so much so people wouldn't reach the logical conclusion that anything would be preferable to the new republic. Only Rogue One had some sort of commentary on how the empire, while evil, wasn't stupid and at least was self-preserving enough to be efficient

>>114944260more like does Azula get a second chance

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>>114945355It was retconned as a shit idea in the very next movie

>>114944731oh yeah, male villains never get second chances. never ever.

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>>114950280And then successfully used again in the same movie because JJ's a hack

>>114947805Actually for-real kill off the first season's main characters in a flurry of sudden, wanton violence and proceed to deal with the narrative consequences that would have resulted. But they brought all 3 back (and killed off the one sympathetic villain).

>>114940456>who knew almost nothing about waging warThis is also true of the writers, hence why these characters seem to portrayed as sympathetic or admirable.

>>114949555Yith in hell greatfag

>>114940319>Leads the RESISTANCE>You have to obey her orders without question or you'll be stunned and imprisonedWhat the fuck were they smoking when they wrote TLJ?

>>114950973Wat?

>>114951040why were they still called the resistance when they fucking won?!?!

>>114941048They're a terrorist organization, not a military. She's under no obligation to tell them anything, but they're under no obligation to do anything she says. Nobody's under any obligation to do anything. If they were the kind of people who were okay with following orders without questioning them they would have been in the New Republic's military and gotten blown up with Coruscant, not in Leia's Resistance.

>>114951105Someone take out your brain and put it a jar?

>>114951275What you wrote makes no goddamn sense faggot

>>114951381Stop being a police fagging nigger

>>114951381I'm pretty sure backseat moderation is against the rules too bud.

>>114951430That cunt's been rampant recently. Let the mods mop it up.

>>114941527>>114942657>Hamil shaped up to his best shape in years to play a role>And it was The Last Jedi.Wow.

>>114941689The biggest problem with Holdo is that but also the fact that her presence in the movie underscores how much of a waste of time the whole movie is. There are filler movies, filler arcs, she is a filler character.

>>114942755Fuck you

>>114942448This, I love The Last Jedi, Rian Johnson, and Pooh Bear. >>114942426This, we are always sensitive to people's feelings in the military, which is why we're certain to provide enough dilation stations

>>114944501Remember though that if you hate the nu-triology or Rian Johnson then you are a nazi.

>>114945899Maybe he likes tsunderes

>>114951223>They're a terrorist organization, not a military.Then why was Rose zapping and locking people up for "deserting"?

>>114951475It'll be a hell of a lot easier for them to mop up if they get reports about it

>>114951358It's a creature of classical literature you troglodyte.

>>114952056Cuz she was a crazy bitchLike damn nigga, she almost splattered Finn to "save" him from ramming the laser cannon

>>114952056Because they're also a fanatical group of ideologues with roughly the same amount of planning and forethought as Antifa.Their first instinct regarding opposition is violence

>>114942117I agree that there is inherent value in trying something different. However, TLJ was shit and being different doesn't excuse that

>>114941048if you allow the morale of your crew to get so bad they mutiny, for no observable gain, that is definitely your fault. allegedly there was a cut line about them being careful of a spy because if word got out that they were sending small transport ships to the nearby planet the first order would obliterate them. And that's exactly what happened. It's really stupid this wasn't included because it would have also allowed Holdo to go full toxic-masculinity on Poe by reiterating that his reckless behavior means he doesn't have a seat at the table anymore and that's all he needs to know. Instead there is this strange, ambiguous feminist slant to her conversations with him and an appearance of weakness. If they wrote it with these suggestions then they get to have their cake and eat it to: Poe is knocked down a notch for more clear toxic masculinity reasons, his attempt to "save" everyone is an even bigger fuck-up than it was already, and Holdo's decision making actually makes logical sense.

>>114954093Even if that line was included, suspecting Poe of being the spy wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. Even more so when, at the end of the film, it's clearly established that both Leia and Holdo trust Poe even if they find him too reckless.

>>114940401>>Also, Su Yin founded a Libertarian utopia and she is a incapable of doing anything wrongAnd all it took was magic powers that make farming and building easy jobs requiring minimal labor!

>>114954232>suspecting Poe of being the spy wouldn't make any sense whatsoeverthat's not what I meant, and clearly you don't know anything about OpSec. In this scenario the plan would be on a "need-to-know" basis since, if it wasn't, there's a chance that the spy could get a hold of the information. Since Poe was demoted he's no longer in the "need-to-know" sphere and, even if they're certain he's 100% clean, protocol still needs to be followed to keep everyone as safe as possible.

In the first of Timothy Zahn's Star Wars novels, he had one of the top Empire dudes say "You are required to follow orders, not ask questions" when someone asked why they were doing something.Fast forward to Rian writing his own shit to replace Zahn's books, and you had Holdo demanding that a bunch of rebels follow orders without questions. That's the Empire's schtick you fucking retard. You don't tell a bunch of fucking rebels to just quietly be unquestioning cogs in a machine. Kinda not what they're known for.

>>114954250To be fair, even with the magic powers. It's the only place in the Earth Kingdom that isn't a complete shithole

>>114954408>clearly you don't know anything about OpSec.Well, I gotta admit that I don't

>>114944731lol what?

>>114941355The difference between the books and show is the difference between night and day. You get to read her internal monologue in the books, and she's constantly seeing threats where there are none, planning to betray or kill the people that genuinely mean her no harm, and patting herself on the back for things that blow up so badly they nearly doom the human race. I will say it wasn't always easy to convey that on screen, since so much of it was shit she was thinking to herself, but Jesus, they did not do justice to what a loathsome self-congratulating narcissist she was. "Letting the Church have their own army again, why they're bound to only go after my enemies and never be a problem to me. How clever I am, truly I am as smart as my father was... nay, smarter!" You deeeense brotherfucker.

>>114941527>She just couldn't be fucking botheredI can't blame her in the least. TFA was a poor rehash, and TLJ was an abomination. Disney hired her to be part of movies that didn't need to be made, written by people that had no story they actually wanted to tell. I sure as fuck wouldn't bust my ass to get in shape for that nonsense.

>>114954435>Even with the magic powersOkay, but the idea is that she took the best benders in the Earth kingdom and buggered off to her own little city, where because they all had magic powers they didn't need trade with the outside world or anything, and they could all just be super-awesome artists and shit because farming and construction are easy when you're super-skilled benders. Meanwhile the rest of the Earth Kingdom went to hell. Its very much a libertarian fantasy, and it's well worth mentioning that the only reason it works in that fictional universe is that people could do a few leg sweeps and BAM the ditch is dug.

>>114941310I never thought for a moment we were supposed to root for Cersei. I think KK and Bryke wanted us to like Holdo and Suyin.

>>114954793That's the big difference is that no one in universe calls out Holdo or Suyin after the fact. Holdo is basically made into a hero for being a bitch at best and retarded at worst and screwing up at every possible opportunity. Suyin is never held responsible for anything that is blatantly her fault, and neither is her shit kid. Cersei gets loads of criticism, even in the show at its worst, and there's people trying to topple her not just for the sake of the throne, but because she's an unhinged psycho who's going to do more harm than good in the long run.

Here's the thing about Holdo:Old people in Star Wars lie all the damn time. Kenobi lied. Organa lied. Yoda lied. Shit even Leia lied by the end.The only difference is by the time they get caught in their lies those people are invariably dead. Or else the situation is as such that nobody has any time or motivation to call them on their obvious bullshit.Holdo is caught double talking and playing shitty games while she's alive and it's only after she gets called on it that she died.

>>114955296>Yoda liedWhen did Yoda lie?

>>114955338He lied by omission. He didn't tell Luke about Vader or Leia until like a year after they met.

>>114955415Fair enough

>>114944822They were all written well; their cuntish behavior was believable and they generally act like real people. I can easily see an actual family having a similar conflict with similar dynamics, adjusted for context. The problem was that the show expected us to sympathize with them when they were being cunts and clearly in the wrong. Tl;dr the problem wasn't the characters but how the show expects us to react to them.

>>114948113lol that last move at the end. maybe wrapping yourself in metal when fighting against a metal wizard wasn't the best idea

>>114955296>Organa liedFuck off, Bail is a treasure

>>114954559>>114941355To me the biggest changes about Cersei came in S7-8. You see, it WAS established she was fairly useless. But the writers realised hey, we're wrapping up the Night's King and we need a post-final villain before we subvert the viewers' expectations. So suddenly, Qyburn is this omnicompetant scientist-schemer who can 1. coordinate orphans and wildfire well enough to conveniently blow up all of Cersei's rivals in the same building, and 2. invent a ballista-type weapon that JUST HAPPENS to be able to hurt dragons even though the speed of those projectiles relative to dragonflight implies something surpassing Saturn V missiles. And on top of that? After the MASSIVE power vacuum all the nobles agree to her pitch to be the Queen Regent because "I'm my father's daughter, you all hate me but I'm a Westerlands girl born and bred unlike that filthy foreign princess". THEN she gets concessions out of the Iron Bank of Braavos for another loan on the simple basis that at that point she's their best bet to avoid losing the investments they gave to Robert's crown, which to be fair is a valid point. But does NOT explain Euron Greyjoy's power of sailing all the way to just off Dragonstone and back to King's landing in DAYS and ambushing other fleets under cover of fog when the show NEVER actually bothered to establish him having any truck with occult sea god forces. He's just a quirky madlad in the show.Then the end of S8 approaches and it's like, the story suddenly remembers Cersei is supposed to be universally hated and unliked. And because the writers have the nuance of mallets, this is represented by Lannisport turning into fucking Mordor with less ash and fire, and Tyrion outright saying "Nobody likes you! NOBODY LIKES YOU CERSEI" to her during negotiations. It's so abrupt if you knew nothing about the show you could guess Cersei was still in control right up until Dany hears the bells, goes apeshit and has Drogon burn down the town.

>>114941527In retrospect I have to imagine the conversation went something like this.>Mark: Carrie, you need to get in shape. This is Star Wars!>Carrie: Mark. Mark, have you actually read the script? It don't matter. None of this matters, and you'll hurt yourself if you think it does

>>114957923in fairness, mark probably thought he would have some say in the script because he knows the character of luke better than anyone. he did pitch some ideas to jj, but basically got told to fuck off, and then the same thing happened with rian. then after all of that shit your character is assassinated and then killed off for no reason and one of your best friends of many years dies. being mark hamill is suffering.

>>114948754What was the point of keeping Poe in the dark? They knew he was a hothead to the point of planning for him to attempt a mutiny. What were they risking by telling him the plan?

>>114948582Is this from the least movie? I gave up on these after the second movie.

>>114951358Great Race of Yith

>>114945350Unironically, yes on both counts. Regret doesn't magically and instantly redeem all your shitty shallow behavior in the past.

>>114956241Bail "Droids aren't people, and neither are the descendents of their creators and owners who maybe deserve to know their father is Darth Vader" Organa was a bitch nigga. Imagine, IMAGINE how much of Luke's inner turmoil could've been avoided if only his memory was intact.

>>114948216>they retconned her to being a coward?Not intentionally, but yes. They say the "Holdo maneuver" only had a one in a million chance of succeeding, which means that she had a 999,999 out of 1,000,000 chance of missing her target entirely and hyperspace-ing away to safety.

>>114958325Let's be fair here, considering her handling of Poe followed by the weird "flirty" moment while he was unconscious another possibility is Holdo was retconned to have an actual autistic learning disorder that made her fatally bad at social cues.>I'll just run a million lightyears in that direction, abandoning the chain of command without even giving further instructions of how we should regroup, in fact cultivating the impression I'm about to genuinely sacrifice myself because lalala don't have time for those fussy social cues>I'm sure everyone I just led on a slow, limping procession of death away from the First Order will be very understanding and appreciative of everything I've done for them

>>114940435She unironically did nothing wrong except be a bit smug and tell user's self insert that he's an inexperienced hothead, which was actually correct. No wonder user hates her.

>>114958533I think Holdo did plenty wrong, especially in light of how awfulbad the Maneuver was, but honestly everyone did everything wrong in that movie. Snoke was useless. Luke was an impulsive and miserly recluse. Leia got the Force out of nowhere in a way that wasn't explained until the next movie hastily tried to put a bandaid on that little moment. Rey was a violent thief that started lusting for her father figure's murderer who never deserved to be Literally All of the Jedi. Kylo was way too much of a pushover for someone who'd supposedly been trained in the Dark Side of the Force for way longer.

>>114958325Thing is, you could totally fix that breaking space combat in future movies without making it a one in a million shot. Not past movies, that ship has sailed and bifurcated another ship on the same path, but still.>opening battle scene>basically the same as it is in TRoS except there's a small team of escort ships with the Falcon piloted by droids>oh no the not Empire shows up, better hit them with a Holdo Maneuver (tm)>droid gives a little thumbs up as hyper drive charges up and he zooms into a Star Destroyer>someone on board flips a switch, sending out a pulsating shield that causes the droid ships to explode harmlessly out of range>oh no the stakes are back to normalI mean hell, if the not Empire can develop tech that can track ships through hyperspace between TFA and TLJ, then who's to say they can't develop anti-lesbian kamikaze tech between TLJ and TRoS.

Who is more deserving of the title of Jar Jar Binks of the Disney sequels, Holdo or Rose Tico? Or is this an insult to based Jar Jar?

>>114958800Probably Rose in the sense that everyone was just sort of bewildered/irritated by her being on screen. Holdo had a lot of irl political stuff surrounding the arguments with her character (Johnson knew exactly what he was doing by making her a middle-aged white lady with pink dyed hair), so people were either vehemently defending her or really hating her. With Rose it was just sort of "ok, you're there, but...why?".

>>114958800Yes. Yes amazingly it is, and I don't say this lightly. See Jar-Jar had the decency to /be portrayed as fucking up by the story/ and losing his position after Revenge of the Sith and dying as a literal street clown, whereas come hell or high water nobody is going to admit Holdo or Rose are anything less than heroes.

>>114958843But what if I want to come inside her?

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>b-but Poe's plan isn't betterLet's get over Holdo's plan once again >resistance slowly running away from FO, not fast enough to lose them, but fast enough to outrun tie fighters>move every person to main ship and sacrifice other ships with their pilots because apparently autopilot doesn't exist >put everyone in small stealth ship (smaller than millennium falcon, the ship considered too small to have stealth technology, and don't give me excuse that technology improved since OT, resistance is poor as fuck)>remember OT, where Empire could scan for life forms, boy it sure would be awkward if FO did that >not only that, FO can scan for stealth ships but for some reasons they don't do this until some rando who tried to sneak on their ship tells them to>while all this is happening Finn and Jar Jar jump into hyperspace in even smaller ship and no one follows them The whole thing is so dumb i probably missed 10 more plot holes

>>114957984They all deserved better. So did the fans, for that matter. Everyone involved in forcing the sequels onto the screen should be ashamed of themselves, but the ones most responsible are too busy counting money to give a shit about the fact that they shat all over a beloved story.Letting corporations own our shared culture is one of the greatest embarrassments of modern times. We should all be ashamed for letting that go on.

>>114958843The Clinton comparisons are hilarious in hindsight. Holdo was a leader whose idea of leadership was turning to the younger generation and going "you don't need to be told why we're doing it this way, you just need to shut up and follow orders" and it turned out that led to catastrophe because of fucking course it would.

>>114941048>moral of the story is "never question authority, no matter if they're seemingly insane retards"Gee i dunno

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>>114959199>but fast enough to outrun tie fightersActually this is bullshit, pulling Tie fighters back was another "WTF" moments of that movie.Small crafts like fighters/gunboats are faster than capital ships by definition.The whole space pursuit is one absurd idiocy, right from the beginning and the "hyperspace tracker" plot devide.

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>>114940319Because SLAAYYYYY QWWWUEEEENNN

>>114945910Teehee

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>>114948754Well gee, maybe if Holdo told her brilliant plan of hers, there wouldn't have been so many casualties

>>114948693Because that would get in the way of our human diversity, White male!

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>>114944713Why it never works, then?

>>114959199>Fast enough to outrun tie fightersThat's not why they didn't swamp them with tie fighters. The actual reason is much dumber

>>114958556>It's okay if everyone's a heinous fuckup because the main theme is failure!Having failure as a theme only works if the failure is a result of characters failing despite their best efforts. If the characters fail because they're incompetent morons/psychotic, it's more a comedy of errors