TES 2 General

It's a deeply flawed game, but you're looking at it from a Skyrim angle. It's just supposed to be a dungeon crawler, nothing else.
I prefer Morrowind myself, but there's no denying DF has mechanical complexity that Morrowind cannot challenge.

hopefully they've grown up without the shit taste morrowind has instilled in faggoty pc gamers

The only edge Daggerfall has there in terms of combat (swinging to strike - and to be fair, Morrowind can do the same thing if you use the arrow keys). The game itself is not more complex in any regards. It might have been if things like the language system and other shit actually worked as intended, but as released, Morrowind had the same degree of depth.

uesp. net/wiki/Daggerfall:Files

"DaggerfallSetup.exe" is the best version, just so you know.

Well, at least you're not a (1), I'll give you that.

Well, Daggerfall also had the advantages/disadvantages, the max hp slider, the dynamic reputation system. Also, mapping out dungeons was more involved with a more interactive customizable map. Also, there was more to the material tiers and enemy resistances. Then, there were the regional law systems and the ability to plea before a judge. There was also gold with weight and banking and loans and home and boat ownership. There was also climbing and bashing open chests and doors.

Faggots who say this shit should be gassed

Regardless it doesn't change the fact that when a developer utters those words it is a huge warning sign. It basically equates to we were to lazy to make something cool, so we just have the loot/enemies/areas randomly generated. It's not always bad true, but it still is used horribly all the time. You can't really blame people for being wary of it.

It is only terrible if it isn't used properly, but that is true of pretty much anything in game design. Random generation isn't bad. Random generation can just be used badly. Which isn't the case in DF which actually used it rather well. DF's failings are in other categories, like bugs and incomplete features.

As for having the exact same game again and again that is boring for certain types of games where exploration and adventure are the main elements of play. If everytime I play a new character everything is the same, then there's not much point in playing unless enough time has passed to dull the edge of memory.

There are many games that I like that I can't really get into anymore, entirely because of the content being so fixed.

Daggerfall's randomly generated dungeons have the worst of both worlds. Random dungeons string together chunks of the plot dungeons, so by the time you get to a plot dungeon you're sick to death of the setpiece that was supposed to make it interesting. It would have been improved massively just by making a separate set of relatively bland stone rooms and corridors to use for most random dungeons.

For those truly new to Daggerfall the typical way you break the hell out of the game is in chargen. For instance, you can get a massive XP bonus by taking heightened weakness to paralysis, then pick elf as a race (which makes you immune to paralysis). There are a ton of options that should have been mutually exclusive like this so you can boost the shit out of your character.

Open doors into doors into walls
Submerged rooms which stop being submerged after you open a door
So called crypts which don't have a single coffin or grave in them
Enemies that can spawn inside fucking walls
have you actually played this piece of shit?

Also the randomized loot is in lockstep with your level. Past a certain point you stop finding rubbish items and almost everything is Daedric.

You were sick of them. And you are greatly exaggerating, most of the plot dungeons are vastly different from the random ones. Even if they use the same map chunk, they are usually modified noticeably and rarely are those reused chunks part of where important NPCs are in said dungeon.

There are plenty of interior textures and designs as it is. Caverns, various types of stone wall, flooded/not flooded/flooded to different depths, varying connections and connections to wildly different blocks than usually encountered with said block, different themes (such as laboratory, dungeon, castle, manor, etc.) that influence the decoration objects found within.

Would more variety be nice? Yes, and I would like to see that if any of the Daggerfall projects get done. However I don't agree that the dozens and dozens of chunks available with all the different ways they are used get old very quickly at all.

I have never encountered this. A door into a secret door/wall on the otherside? Sure. A door opening to a bricked off wall? Yes, and that is fucking intentional because there is nothing on the other side of that doorway.

Never experienced that in all the years I have played the game.

Really think you are being unfair with this. Is it not possible the place hasn't been used to store the dead yet or that it has been robbed or cleared out?

They aren't spawning inside the walls, you can't even do that. They can get stuck in the walls or fall through the floor, but that isn't the same thing. That's a bug with the physics.

I'm starting to doubt that you have.

Absolute fucking lie.

Another fucking lie or gross exaggeration. I still find the shit materials more than good even late game.

This was replaced with racial traits and birthsign when it came to Morrowind. You could also get favored attributes for classes instead of having that as a separate feature. You could argue that this is less complex, as it forces you to take certain options. On the reverse side, it adds a degree of complexity in that it limits min-maxing. Can you do it? Yes. But if you want that magicka bonus as an Altmer with the Atronach, you're going to have to put yourself in that situation where you need to get hit by spells to recover Magicka, but if your spell absorb fails, you're going to take severe damage. You can't just worm your way out of that with different advantages and disadvantages.
I guess this is complexity? HP was tied solely to attributes with Morrowind, which isn't so much less complex as just different. Your race also actually had an impact on attributes with Morrowind, instead of being almost solely cosmetic for a custom character.
Which is sort of cool, but it doesn't honestly make that huge of a difference. Some? Yeah. You can basically get kicked out of a region. But that's about all there is to it, and with as many regions as there are, it doesn't mean that much in the long run.
Means little with the randomized blocks. If you were clearing dungeons, you were making a mistake. Daggerfall dungeons are meant to be treated like D&D dungeons - you go in, mark down what you're doing, and back track out after you have acquired enough treasure to take it back home and sell it. Morrowind wasn't less complex here - it was different. Dungeons were meant to be completed. They were meant to have a story of some sort to them. Enemies weren't randomized - they were preset. If you went to the wrong place at the wrong time, you would get BTFO by high level enemies. If you beat them anyways, you'd get to reap the benefits of wealth beyond measure. In that regard, while the complexity of Daggerfall comes from dungeon size, the complexity of Morrowind comes from remembering that area you couldn't beat earlier, and coming back later once you're more powerful. Once you've actually grown as a character.
Just ripped from D&D. It didn't make any sense in lore anyways. At least "immunity to normal weapons" worked for in-game lore. But the attempt to translate "immune to weapons below +3" to "orcish or better" was silly. The Morrowind system is also interesting in that it provides three types - silver, magic, and Daedric - that penetrate immunity to normal weapons. So a lower level character can use silver weapons or weakly enchanted ones, while a higher level character may use Daedric or enchanted Daedric weapons, or even artifacts. Daggerfall encourages you to carry your best sword. Morrowind encourages you to carry two swords throughout the mid-game - one for dealing with regular enemies, one for dealing with magical ones.
The second part is of note, yes. The former, see above, with reputation. Didn't mean all that much really.

Everything after that is actually good points. However, there are a few features you need to note that are in Morrowind:

The alchemy system in Daggerfall is weaker than the one in Skyrim. Laughable. Morrowind has a complex system, albeit highly exploitable.
A mixed bag. In some ways, Daggerfall has more complex enchanting. In others, Morrowind gives you more freedom - the fact you don't need to have the service provided, for example. You can just do it.
Daggerfall artifacts could be lost, which was cool. But the way Morrowind handled things was quite a bit more interesting, and gave a lot more personality to the items and the world. The same for Daedric quests. Yeah, summoning a Daedra on a certain day was cool. But what's nicer is getting an actual unique quest when working for one, instead of a "go kill in in days" like every other random quest.
Locations being set means you get a lot of unique places. There's the one hidden Dwemer ruin in the underwater cave where you find the Dragonbone Cuirass, and there's the one dungeon you go to find the Ring of the Wind. Hell, all of the dungeons for the Oracle are pretty interesting. You have shit like the wizard on the island to the north who is terrifying everyone, or the drunken Nord that points you to the ancient burial crypt. You have backpaths and alternative routes on the main quest, alternate routes, and so on.

Morrowind and Daggerfall are very different games, and where they have complexity differs. How they handle it differs. In many regards, calling them the same genre is a mistake.

So you haven't played the game at all
You know it would have been better if you just said so instead of doing this song and dance.

You seem to be suggesting that there's a less faggoty alternative

You, the person behind the keyboard reading this will never enjoy Daggerfall with enhanced terrain generation, modding support and a non obtuse shitty ui.

Why live?

Would a Unity reimplementation suffice? It's actively developed, for one thing.

It isn't in lockstep with your level. You can get out of level materials.

That was the new project where progress is still slow.

>tfw I liked arena's dungeons more
Especially the crystal-like-law and the silent hill tier murkwood.

That's an awful lot of words just to say, "ok, the game was more complex but I don't care about those things." If you don't like admitting you are wrong, simply don't respond. Why barrage me with all that hedging?

meant for

Morrowind added crafting in the form of alchemy enchantment, but it took away so much more. Same way Oblivion added manual blocking but stripped everything else.

And scripted quests and better scenery are also nice but they don't add complexity to the game. I agree with you that I prefer Morrowind. But, overall, the gameplay is more simple. It's an easier game that is easier to exploit because less effort went into the leveling system and magic system. My main issue with Morrowind is that I can approach every enemy the same way and still win. It's much more forgiving and there is hardly any need to plan ahead compared with Daggerfall.

How about you be a responsible person and don't accept multiple quests at a time, user.

m8 I actually played Daggerfall, and there isn't really any difference in planning ahead. You kill all enemies the same - by applying the most damage to them in the shortest interval of time. There are some with specific weaknesses, but no more than in Morrowind. Fighting a Daedric Lord is the exact same as fighting a Spellsword, just at different degrees of power.

You want a game that actually has different tactics? You need to look at one that isn't the fucking Elder Scrolls, because the whole game series is simple in that regard.

Yeah I gotcha. It's nothing overwhelming. But there is still more to it than Morrowind. You also don't give enough credit to advantages/disadvantages and climbing etc. I know morrowind has the birthsigns, but that's a more dumbed-down alternative. It doesn't have the customization and it doesn't take environment into account at all. In Daggerfall, you can be stronger or weaker based on whether it's dark or light. The game takes into account where you are, what time it is. It knows when you're swinging a weapon at a chest or a door. It allows you to scale walls. It has the dodge skill that isn't just merged into agility. These are all things that take time and effort on the part of the devs. Time and effort that Morrowind's devs dedicated elsewhere.

Also, you don't seem to remember enemy weaknesses in Daggerfall because there is much more to it than in Morrowind. In Morrowind, you have beasts and humanoids, who can be harmed by anything. You have undead and daedra, who need silver and above or enchanted. In Daggerfall, you have different enemies you can damage with each tier. Some are silver and above, other's can't be harmed until dwarven. Here's the list: uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Weapons
There's definitely much more to it than the one in Morrowind.

Morrowind may have had the more detailed environment and characters and politics. Complexity of world design goes to Morrowind for sure. But complexity of game mechanics still goes to Daggerfall I'd say. Daggerfall is no ADOM or Eye of the Beholder or Ultima, but it's probably the closest any TES title has come to meeting the standards of those types of CRPGs.

Also, you say you've played Daggerfall. But did you beat it? Did you make it to the final dungeons? In Morrowind, every dungeon is "search until you find the thing." There were no puzzles or hidden passages or teleporters or torches that were actually levers or pillars that zap you to death or chains that give you levitation. Also, Morrowind didn't have lycanthropy until the second expansion.