RTS Thread - Did "Turtlers" Kill RTS? Edition

i fucking hate gearbox, death when?

But why not?
Plus where else are you going to attach an Obelisk of Light?

Considering Blunderborn, maybe sooner than you think?

RTS died because of stagnation. Rather than combining all the really good ideas like a side bar to access production, stacking unit orders/repeat build orders, more intelligent resource systems, a focus on competitive esports games rather than fun units and stories, no attempt at reaching the new age of multiplayer fun (Starcraft 2 is finally getting there and otherwise Red Alert 3 is the only other game I know of that has co-op gameplay) and many many other reasons are why RTS died.

It could have been a niche genre like Grand Strategy, Total War games, but instead it tried to ride the esport train but couldn't keep up.

i miss stories in RTS, wish sins of a solar empire had one.

RTS died because it was too niche, same as GSGs (you will never see another Paradox GSG, it's all 4X from here on out).

"I hate turtle players so they must be the reason RTS are dead"

ok user

You should really learn to read carefully unless you are one of those kinds of players that think turtling involves playing a game like it's Sim City.

1v1 APM fags in particular really ruined the genre, the best games were always 8+ man free-for-all matches on gigantic maps because it forced players to actually balance themselves between attack and defense, instead of going all out for a sub-5 minute rush win against a single opponent.

Turtling only worked against shitters or average players. Anyone with an idea of the game mechanics can easily counter turtling.

An example would be Company of Heroes. If someone spams defensive units and wastes manpower on defenses and other shit like that, cheap mortars and later game arty made said units and defenses useless. that 360 manpower will wipe out their 2000+ manpower defense investment in a minute or two.

The problem with turtling is that RTS typically give an advantage of some kind for map control. Resources usually. So a player with more map control will have more resources and thus a faster growing economy and thus much, much better numbers/tech than the turtle.

So turtling is basically just conceding in denial.

>there are anons in this thread RIGHT NOW who think aggression shouldnt be rewarded and wish to sit in their starting location and tech up until they can a-move to victory

I have to admit I like playing against turtles. Regular assassination matches are great and all but it's fun actually being able to hammer a turtle's base with nukes, knowing his shitty eco means he'll have minimal SMD and no real ability to mount a reprisal.

Sometimes I feed turtle players some feeble attacks to give them hope and keep them from disconnecting while I use the map control to build a Mavor and start dropping nuclear shells on their autism forts.

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No; gook clickers killed it; the exact opposite of what you're proposing.

This. Name me one fairly modern RTS that actually allows for turtling (or even base building)

Name me five gook clickers released in as many years.

...

No user, the lack of bots and the anti-turtling mechanics was the real killers
But everyone wanted a competitive scene like Starcraft and Warcraft 3 and for we couldn't have the 2~4 hour matches we had in total annihilation or age of empires 2

Fast paced matches, that's what killed the entire genre in a way that we will never see it rise again.

I agree with the fast-paced match thing. Strategy games should realistically be best of one, or best of three at most. They're games to be played over a long period of time, that you sit down and really have a go at. Unfortunately people don't like games that go for more than an hour.

why the fuck even bother?

Couldn't agree more, why bother?

But those are multiple fair win conditions that a reasonable player (or team of players) should be able to deal with.

You weren't even playing supcom.
5 minute no-rush is tolerable, especially if it's just a gentleman's agreement to not throw a full-force assault at someone until those 5 minutes are up.

some people just want to play with god tier late game techs and units while watching explosions happen all over the place. this is why supreme commander 2 pretends to skip the first 2 tech levels entirely and tried to put a focus on experimentals, i mean look how damn many experimentals there are. they were hoping it would draw in those kinds of players.

Mobas was a mistake.

So just play a regular seton's game? Those usually extend into T4.

There are a bunch of maps that produce exactly that without being a land units only straight-walled corridor. Just off the top of my head, there's Setons, Gap of Rohan, and Dual Gap EP.

Not accusing anyone in this thread of being a casual, just wanted to point out that scrubs are gonna be scrubs no matter what advice you give them.

Anyone who falls for the terracotta army meme in Rise of Nations is a casual, prove me wrong.

its fucking clay

Thoughts on RA 2 VR?

youtube.com/watch?v=IGtrJaiUZaA

Most people don't have the time to play 3 hour games. 20-30 minutes is the sweet spot before they go to work.

the RTS AI is inhuman. either it goes full retard like in warcraft 2 and doesn't even try to build the base, or is a cheating fuck who does the most uneconomical thing and it still manages to expand even faster than me

Its because most ai are terrible and as such are given cheats to compensate
Aoe2HD probably has the best not cheating ai I've ever seen in an rts

THIS. I love that game, but despite all the lore buildup you get in each of the game's openings and expansions, there's ultimately no story and no campaign.

It'd really work with one, I think.

Neat, EA will probably send a D&C though
On a side note, I've been playing Yuri's Revenge recently, still as good as I remember it.

most people dont like getting kicked out of the game 3 minutes in because unknown to them the most effective strategy is to be the first faggot to build a single combat unit and send it to your opponent's base.

If youre going to play an RTS game play one that actually requires you to contemplate your actions, then realize RTS didnt die, you just were playing the CoD of the genre while everyone else was doing grand strategy and 4x

This meme hasnt been more true since it started.

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Soon.

Then they should not be playing RTS.

Holy shit, this right here.

The S in RTS stands for strategy and while they are real time, reflexes should NOT be a factor in how well you can play the game. What strategies you employ and how you react to your oponent should matter far more than how fast you can spam hotkeys.

I still think there are several games where you could, in theory, perform some neat strategies with the more gimmick units but the amount of clicking you need to actually make them viable renders the entire plan impossible to execute.

Off the top of my head, Dark Templars in Starcraft for instance where rarely used since they needed very carefull movement to strike from behind and only after your main army started the skirmish and you'd need to keep an eye on them for extraction if your oponent countered their stealth.
At that point, you'd be better off spending the resources needed to make them and the buildings to produce them into something more basic like more Zealots and Dragoons.

Complaining about Turtling doesn't even make any sense, it's not a viable strategy at all. You forfeit control of the map, giving your oponent far more resources and space to expand, resources that he will spend on whatever mechanism that RTS uses for "bunker busting" and all decent RTS games have this.
Age of Empires had the Wonders to force your oponent to attack or lose, Age of Mythology had both the Wonders but also a Titan, RoN had nukes, etc, etc

The cool thing about RTS that a lot of fans liked was expanding throughout the map, taking over regions and building massive bases while pumping out a very large army with a lot of different units for some amazing battles with several units, each doing it's thing.
But unfortunnaly, some faggots are happy with small skirmishes, spamming the same 2-3 units for early game and your expansion is severely limited since you'll need an army to defend yourself from minute 0.
And the devs and games kept pandering to those no-fun-allowed fags and most RTS now have a small roster of units with 2-3 multi purpose and another 3-4 gimmick\situational units with base building being so simplified there's no fun in that.

Reflexes will always be relevant but they shouldn't be domineering. Appropriate scouting, defenses, unit composition, maneuvering, production management etc should all be means to victory. SupCom, for example, is a much slower game, but it is not without kiting and dodging attacks at the top level of play. That's not to say it is the most important factor, just a very relevant one.

Reminder that Mowas2 is shit

On a different note I got some coh1 and coh2 cd keys to give out. And by 'some' I mean 3. Anyone interested?

Company of Heroes 2 - The Western Front Armies: US Forces, Company of Heroes 2, Company of Heroes 2 - Case Blue Mission Pack, Company of Heroes 2 - Southern Fronts Mission Pack, Company of Heroes 2 - Victory at Stalingrad Mission Pack

if youre going to release them into the wild i often see it suggested you use images so bots dont grab them

Most RTS'ers have CoH1 though, and CoH2 is only good with mods which started a year or so ago, so it's not really bothered with. Hence I've not just dropped them, don't see the point unless someone is actually interested.

why?

Mechanically it's actually better-dynamic line of sight really changes things, especially in the built up areas. The implementation of things is, as per usual with Relic, pretty shit. I personally find they build great engines but can't make a game for shit. Doesn't help it went for the APM crowd, and it came out when THQ was dying and trying to get as much dosh out of people as possible. All the commanders and stuff are too much.

Thankfully, mods. I play coh2 almost nightly with a mate, but we never, ever play Relic's version.

Id take the first one I dont have the expacks

I used a Blitzkrieg-esque mod but the game was still pretty shit. The only guy on my frinedlist plays vanilla only so that didn't help either.

Nigga doesn't even RTS

This, the devs took the concept of cheating AI and made an actually good game out of it.

Why is "From Dust" and "Ash of Singularity" in Tech Demo right after "more gimmicky tech\god powers"?

From Dust was practically a puzzle game and quite disapointing since most people were expecting Black & White with terraforming.
Ashes of the Singularity turned out to be so fucking generic even Grey Goo is more original!

Okay, but you'll get some coh2 stuff as well. It's three keys with all the shite listed there.

And here they are, grab them while you can

Is Homeworld 2 still that divisive?

Thanks m80

What "killed" the genre in the competitive sense is that 20-30 minute snorefests are only acceptable if you play in a 5 player team.

If the AI were worth jack shit, these 1v1 maps could be replaced by playing larger ones with bots for the rest of factions.

Arbitrary?
lmgtfy.com/?q=APM

So starcraft is at fault then? Because other gookclickers barely exist.

If you do want to try CoH2, find Biohog, that's me. I play it with a mod, which has it's own problems ofc but it's got fewer than Relic's CoH2 (no p2w commanders for example). I've shilled it quite a few times, but don't want to be 'that guy' who always posts the pictures so I'll leave it at that.

I think I remember you.
I wanted to play with you but you then just disappeared.

Life happened. Add me if you want

Reposting from another thread (that is on page 1 you fucking faggot, check the catalog).

They (turtlefags) already killed it (RTS genre).

Most people online say that "DOW 1 was too static, DOW 2 is so much more active omg".

Then you see them sending 1 scout to the middle of the map, losing it, then staying in base and not moving or attempting anything for the rest of the game.

Obviously, 3 strategic points to the opponent's 7 is an automatic lose.

Besides building a ton of turrets (max 6 in dow 1 but they cost a shit ton of resources), turtling is retarded.

It's a shame that DOW 1 SS got boring for me after 200 hours (I also play DE exclusively so it gets boring).

Turtlefags killed RTS. We got Dawn of lulz 2 and now Dawn of Cancer 3.

This, people should adapt to the genre not adapt the genre to their FPS/MOBA style.

Compare these 3 gameplay videos, spot the RTT faggot and the pro players.

youtube.com/watch?v=ZhVhdgd2aC8&index=5&list=PL558EBD82D0B4D03E

youtube.com/watch?v=bx9HDuevIe8

youtube.com/watch?v=AAWSQwCU0DM

This, they were (and always were) fucking retarded when it comes to marketing or understanding consumers.

This.
Let me compare DOW 1 SS Eldar with DOW 2 Retribution Vanilla (non-elite) Eldar.
DOW 1 SS:

DOW 2:

That's it in dow 2.
Elite mod fixes it since you also get fire dragons and dark reapers and seer council but otherwise it's still pretty shitty.

For DOW 2, summary:
That's it.

The other thread isn't specifically about RTS and you're the stupid faggot for not reading this thread where Turtling was already talked about.

It did not killed RTS at all when turtling is never effective. It's conceding the map and resources to the oponent who will tech, build, recruit and control everything much faster than any turtle can ever do.
Not to mention the several "Bunker Buster" mechanisms many RTS feature that were designed specifically to fuck over turtles.

What happened was exactly the fucking oposite, where buildings towers, walls or taking more than a few microseconds to build your base removes time and resources you could use to spam an army faster than your oponent.
Rushes are much more frequent and effective than Turtling but not that many people enjoy them at all since they get old fast. You can only see 50 copies of the same units destroying simple 5-6 buildings bases for so long before getting bored.

So most people moved over to things that allowed them to build shit at their own pace and see the late game content in most games, like 4X or GSG, or simply ditch the base building so they could focus on the tactics, RTT.
Or altogether just turtling for fun, Tower Defense.

RTS kept moving farther and farther away from the Strategy part into the APM clicke and everyone else that didn't wanted to play Quake with a top-down view moved to games that actually allowed them to enjoy actual strategy.

Wew, I can't believe any one person is -this- retarded.

Well, if you insist, I'll carefully refute every argument you presented forward, just to show you who's really retarded:

How deep is the autism for SupCom+FA?
I've been playing SupCom2 with friends recently, and it's the first RTS I've played since AoE2 HD popped out a while back, and wonder if its worth getting into the better game.

Fucking flags.

Go ahead!

Stop arguing over this.
It was already explained that APM/Tourneyfags killed RTS.
Instead of having fun with building armies and letting them fight you have to minmax everything now to finish the game in under 5 minutes in a boring 1v1.

Here's an example of how an rpg died

But that never happened in rts games amirite?
People would never complain about an rts.

Post more smugs, that will show him! who is retarded

Post more imgtfly, that'll show him! who is retarded

You're the one that made the claim that Turtling killed RTS without providing an inkling of evidence, especially when turtling doesn't even work at all.
The example you give about the scouts applies more to the min-max faggots that concede the match when the first 5 minutes don't go the way they planned away (I'm having flashbacks to the failed rushes in SC or AoM)

You then started mentioning a game in a completely different genre as if this proves anything or is related in anyway whatosever.
Funny thing in your example is that RTS suffered exactly the oposite: the changes came before people demanded something different and they moved onto different games after the current RTS didn't satisfy them, they didn't moved into RTS looking for GSG or 4X.

I'm sorry you're too dumb to deal with turtles when it's the most basic shit to deal with ever.
I'm sorry you don't like games taking more than 20 minutes, where people have the oportunity to use their full arsenal of units and buildings.
I'm sorry matches aren't bit-sized for ADHD APM fags like you love so much.

But here's the thing, if more people liked RTS to remain like that… RTS wouldn't be dead.

HAHAHAHAHAH
Learn to read nigger, I talked about DOW 2.

So you haven't watched either of the 2 youtube videos that I linked?
Of course not.
So you haven't watched DOW 1 vidz on youtube ever?
Of course now.
Read any reviews on forums?

HAHAHAHAHAHA
We're hitting retardation levels that shouldn't even be possible.

HAHAHAHAHHA
Reading comprehension: 0

HAHAHAHAHAHHA
Projection level: infinite.

Well meme'd not

forgot my smug animu

It can get pretty deep at high rating, but there's a shallow end of pool for new players. The FA Forever matchmaking client is still pretty active and people are still playing custom games and 1v1 ladder.

Care to explain to philistines?

so how is that ashes of the singularity expansion? what was wrong with the vanilla game that no one ever seems to talk about it?
i should try it for myself some day.

a lot of rts games give the ai free resources, units, etc. they decided to design the whole game around that so you arent fighting a fair fight by any stretch of imagination.
it starts out slow but pretty much anything significant you do like claiming new territory or a myriad of other things you do depending on the settings you chose can boost the threat level. soon youll be figting 10 to 1 soon enough and relying on unsustainable strategies like warheads (which increase threat when detonated) or special units that consume finite resources.
the lobby settings are an enormous deal actually, most of them just make the game harder or more complicated.
its interesting that the almighty cheating ai actually tries to conserve its units and retreat unwinnable battles sometimes. im not sure what triggers this exactly, but thats something i almost never see the ai do in 'real' rts games.
be careful though the interface is a plate of saucy messy spaghetti.

It's a large scale co-op RTS about fighting two AI opponents that massively overpower you in every way and get more pissed as you fight it. It plays a lot like TA/Supcom, but at a much larger scale. Games last days, if not weeks, and 10k enemy ships is a normal occurrence.

Well Ashes of the Singularity Escalation just came out. How is it?

It's actually pretty good, however everything that's been added should have been put in the base game since without that content, the game feels really incomplete. The new campaign is better and doesn't feel like an overglorified tutorial. You play as an AI hunting Space Kikes Overall though it plays like a slower and poor mans version of Supreme Commander. The game is crying out for air transports honestly.

Source for the 1st pic?

Reminder that the PHC are Jews oppressing everyone.

Substrate did nothing wrong. PHC turned Haalee into the rightful kike hunter.

What killed the genre was the complete lack of innovation or change. Once you've played 2-3 RTS from the 90s, you've seen them all. All the others will be minor variation of those 3 with different models. The vast majority of the basebuilders are about as innovative as Call of Duty after 4. What's worse, the average age of people who like the genre is higher, so chances are they were around for the old ones and none of this shit is new to them at all.

So what happened was that people left the genre for neighbouring ones (Total War, grandstrat) or subgenres (RTT). The ones who remained were the APM-fest gookclickers. Now the gookclick is dying out because esportfags went off to MOBAs.

The genre got stale and nobody wanted to invest in innovation. It was basically what is happening now to the whole industry.

So you are saying it's crashing with no survivors?

Has Mental Omega updated yet?

Indeed. Now we wait till the fire rises.

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The poor fools.

I don't follow things, what is so shit about it?

I love Holla Forums. And especially you, user.

Fuck now I'm feeling nostalgic

Dare to attack my fortress?
I can attack you anywhere with a simple sensor scan

I need more games that let me focus on artillery and not basically sign my death sentence

Fucking take a breather m8.

Everything pretty much

There's more to the list but I don't want to go on.

I like to make sure the losers still have fun.

I was just about to demolish that smug bastard.

I love to turtle, but I don't play multyplayer. For me the enjoyment of RTS games died when developers decided to start making games where they force you to rush. I love to take it slow, build up my defenses first, then eventualy make a huge army and steam roll the enamy.

This was turtling done right. Building comfy castles, surviving sieges and memorable characters and soundtrack to boot.

I lost another 3v1 gang-up when I got cocky and "let them think they could win" for too long. They actually built a wonder (we forgot to turn off that victory condition) and I was unable to get to it inside of their three-player-fortress in time despite once again having full map control. Fucking wonder was on fire and everything when the year counter hit 0.

Korean siege onagers are troublesome defensive units.

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But every decent rts from long ago has rush strategies suppcom, wc3, wc2, sc. Perhaps only AoE gives some time.

Go play AI War.

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Well Ashes of the Singularity is turning out to be very comfy.

AoE2 has scout rushing and it's super gay.

Is it worth a pirate?

Escalation is. Original? No.

What is wrong with these people.

Why are all the balance mods for COH2 so fucking autistic? I want a game improvement but they all seem fucking awful, making explosives super lethal to infantry, removing the retreat defense bonus and turning AT into snipers. Do the people that make all these mods just want to play with almighty tanks?

I know what you mean. I shill the spearhead one but I really dislike the removed defensive bonus in retreat, and lots of the extra units make no sense and feel like they're there because they could put them there; the 'italian' infantry, the Welsh Guards (that use the oirish voicepack) and gurkas that are white and irish… but anyway, it might be the maps as well. I've noticed in maps with built up/cramped spaces infantry can make it a deathtrap for vehicles in the 'realism' mods.

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Pls don`t talk Shit. Stellaris was fairly early addition on their new line of games.

soldiers heroes of ww2 and Men of war are da best

There is nothing better than crushing arrogant shits in SupCom.

How about GG Mod? docs.google.com/document/d/1byA39loXah8ivW-9ZvQe2xGRYw9iBxlfosxyMoJVRuc/edit

there's some competitive OpenRA streaming on Mondays, it's comfy to have running on the side.

Do they still get butthurt about engineers?

Anyone up for some RTS games via Discord/Skype?
I don't really care that much which game to play as long as it isn't total shit.
It's just that I really dislike playing against an AI or randoms.
Please lads it's been ages since I've last had fun multiplayer rounds [spoiler];_;[/spoiler]

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Just looking at it now, he decided to turn Penal Batallions, the specialized "suicide charge against cover or buildings" anti-infantry unit into Anti-Tank and outright removed two tiers of veterancy for them.

AT abilities halved in ranged, doubled in damage, great now if the enemy brings an MG his vehicles are immune in the early game.
OKW Vet 5 removed, OKW and USF non-linear tech trees removed wow yes fuck unique things amirite?

Yeah look i dislike COH2s balance but these balance mods somehow manage to sound WORSE THAN RELIC. The more i read through this the more ridiculously puzzling things i encounter like nerfing shock troops, removing partisans role in the game entirely etc etc. It feels like an attempt to turn the game into starcraft.

No, not gonna play this reddits pile of steaming shit in a thousand years, not when the original RA1 got 200~300 niggers to kill online at any time, you fucking faggot.

And is that fun? Does that make the game any better?

I mean, you have multiple units, buildings and mechanics you can use in the game to use for a decent hour or more to have good fun. But there's a mechanic that lets you win in 5 minutes or less using only a very small amount of the game's content.
Why is this considered good or positive or fun in any way whatsoever?
Being a surprise isn't an argument here, getting a kick in the balls before you start a race with a friend is a surprise too but it doesn't make the race more fun.

I get the feeling a lot of RTS players tried the genre and expected long drawn-out wars where they have to take over several bases and build large fortresses, equipped with the best tech and equipment while pumping out several hundreds of units in different fronts.
But what they find everytime they try multiplayer (and the AI, as it evolved to match multiplayer) is players rushing each other right at the start or at least putting an offense in 3-4 minutes that they aren't ready to handle since they expected war to come a bit later. And in most of these games, they will lose but what will upset them the most was that they lost against basic units, defending a basic base.

Would it suprise anyone that these players would then migrate to 4X or GSG where they can spend all their time building and preparing for war for several turns and do it over a very large map? Or that they'd migrate to RTT and ditch the building but at least have several different units to use right from the start, with the later more interesting ones still seeing use in most games when they last long enough for that?

How do you guys feel about "scenario" based RTS?
Some of my favorite WC3 custom maps were azeroth wars and Dark Age of Warcraft. Many factions in completely different preset starting positions and preset alliances with multiple event chains that could occur based on ingame actions, yet still fundamentally very similar to standard WC3 in gameplay, unit production etc, though on a much larger scale.

anyone wanna play aoe2? steam/voobly works for me

I much prefer building my own scenarios as the game grows. Empire Earth 2 with it's zones and even the first one with the resource spots allowed for bases to grow and points of interest to be dominated, providing nice backgrounds for most battles.

What we need is more interesting maps for people to build on top of, so we can create those scenarios.

Sins of a Dark Age was a MOBA that was originally intended as an RTS/MOBA hybrid, it had a system where random quests would occur every few minutes, giving unique rewards to those who fulfill the objectives. Having the kind of more detailed maps with both random events and events that can be triggered (for example hold all of X zones to allow building of a special structure or break down a big gate to cause a horde of zombies to stream into the map through it) would certainly go a long way towards creating that kind of game.

It's not anymore?

It's ded.

I don't think it still exists? Besides after it dropped the RTS hybrid bit it didn't seem that appealing.
I played it on steam, i thought its items were pretty cool and the events were okay but most of the heroes were bland and overall it felt too similar to other MOBAs.

These days im really too burned out on MOBAs to care.

Anyone else play this? Its not bad for a ds RTS game

What are some good mods for Sins of a Solar Empire Rebellion? Seems that a lot of them out tend to be nothing but overglorified ship viewers, unfinished or horribly unbalanced.

I see babbies are still butthurt to this day about the game not being another Shitty AOE/Starcraft clone reliant on Minmaxing plus APM.

EE2 has absolutely retarded and arbitrary unit type/counter system that triggered my autism so hard I'm completely incapable of playing that game.

That modified/bloated list is shit anyway, base version was better.

Get over yourself.

Everything in TI is so small its unreadable
Also UI is objectively outdated and shit in comparison to RA2

It is for some games and not for others.
Rush strats in suppcom involve lots of spam and are fun.
In starcraft they aren't.
In RA2 and RA1 they aren't.

No shame in that, just wait for BR2 and plsy multiplayer

Shame the missions in it suck and are based entirely around luck. Honestly what is it with modders and their obsession with Commando Style Missions?

I miss good RTS games.

AY YO HOL UP
YOU BE SAYIN
WE WUZ SOULJAS AND SHIET

bump

Wait what the fuck, there were originally going to black Rear Echaleons? Ehh, it wouldn't even really matter due to the fact RE are completely fucking useless.

Like poetry.

Anons, how does AoE2 HD compare to regular AoE2? I have some friends who are pushing me to play it with them, but I'm reluctant to give money to the steam jew. Is it an improvement or is it just a cashgrab?

More of a cashgrab. Horribly unoptimized and bad netcode. Terrible texture and icon replacement, like changing food from meat to grain which makes it hard to tell if you are looking at wood or food.

That seems like a very petty complaint, although there really was no reason to change it in the first place.
Thanks, user. Re-releases tend to just make it easier for lazy people to play older games and this seems no different.

Oh, there was a lot of things cut out from CoH 2. Believe me.

Turtling isn't and never was a problem. No single RTS I know of allows turtling to be viable, let alone encourages it.
Turtling can even be a good thing, unlike very early rushes, by being a gamble to get early tech, a game ender etc. Sacrifice economy, awareness, map control and portable fighting units for a chance to obtain some greater gain. It can be scouted on any stage, you can try to back out of it in early stages almost in any game and in the better ones you can transform your strategy into something else without being completely fucked if you get scouted at some critical moment.

RA2 started that trend. BroodWar just perfected muh formula.

I'm starting to doubt the people complaining about RTS games have any idea what the fuck they are talking about. And all you fucks complaining about APM, there's already a genre for you, it's called Turn Based Strategy. Stop trying to turn Speed Chess into Chess because you can't handle it.

That chart has fucking /gsg/ and TBS on it, what made you think they'd have a somewhat obscure RTS on there?

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0/10, go be dumb elsewhere.

Quite the contrary, the rushers killed RTS.

There was a really fun WW1 custom map for WC3 that revolved entirely around artillery.

Halo wars got me into RTS. I acknowledge its casual as fuck comparatively but aren't a lot of old RTS, like dune just as simple? why is halo wars so bad

The problem with RTS multiplayer nowadays is it either presents a very steep learning curve for new players, along with a very knowledgeable and experienced community, or is just plain dead. I don't know about CoH and the like as WWII theme started making me sick as far back as the first BloodRayne (so around 2003), but most games that don't involve lots of micro would be too slow going for you since you've played a lot of BW. SupCom FAF might be a good middle ground as you still have to micro bombers and experimentals at higher levels but aren't required to until you're nearing the top.

Honestly, CoH and Relic's 'RTT' games are garbage, but they are superior to their dawn of war 'Hump the magical buttons' meta.

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Where the porn RTS at

I must disagree. Take BW for example. The top level players play on the fish server, the mid level players play on the iccup server, and the new players stick to battle.net. The 300+ APM speedgooks are on fish, 100-200 APM hardcore players are on iccup, and all the new players and shit players relying on cheese are on battle.net.

Noobs complain because they die to cheese attacks that they never learn effective counters for. They keep making the same mistakes and never think for a second that their strategy sucks. They dump a ton of resources into defenses at the edge of their base, only to get wiped because other players will go around or punch through and drop in the middle. They only build a single unit production building of each type and keep wondering why they are getting outnumbered. They never go scout out what their opponent is up to, and then wonder why they keep getting surprised. They never expand to a second base until they are running out of resources, and wonder why they keep getting surrounded.

It's not so much a steep learning curve(unless you try to go to the higher level servers) so much as it's expecting the player to use strategy. Mobility, production, scouting, resource management, these are all important parts of any RTS. Any game that would be easier on a new player would have to be missing one of these. Remove enough, and you get MOBAs.

is there any way to play c&c generals online without game ranger or garbage systems like that
also anybody up for tiberian sun

It's out.
moddb.com/mods/twisted-insurrection/downloads/twisted-insurrection-06

I don't really see whats wrong with Halo Wars, I played it a bit and it was a fun RTS of Halo, of course there are better RTSs out there but in all purposes it wasnt all that bad.

what are the changes any nerfs or buffs

My favorite thing is Mow is the panzerfaust squads. Buy a pair and split the rpg's among a few guys and assign them to a suicide squad. Send them out to kill tanks and 1 side hit can pen even the heaviest tank.

That's probably because you never played any other Ensemble games. That game was their funeral.

changelog
ppmforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=42869

But BW is the cradle of e-sports. Of course it has larger concurrent online numbers. The only other exception to that rule (or, rather current state that is here to stay for an undeterminable amount of time) is FAF because it still has a large enough playerbase/influx of new players and the maintainers change things up from time to time.
As for the learning curve, I was referring to muh meta that inevitably devolves in any game with persistent enough multiplayer community. If you just started your first MP match you might have no idea that you must never allow a Scrin player capture your structure under any circumstances past ~20 minute mark, for example.

Those are a necessary evil. Unless you are in the mood for configuring OpenVPN, which I'd even help you with. Oh, and at least one of the players has to have an "outward-facing" IP, thus potentially deanonimizing him and potentially making him vulnerable.

its a damm shame that generals net code is fucking trash i just want to play it like back in the old days

If you establish a Virtual Private Network with the guy you want to play with, it's essentially the same as a LAN just with lower bandwidth and higher lag. The farther apart you two are, the larger the lag.

What do you niggers think of GSC and Haemimont's games?

And someone playing their first MP match should expect to win against a skilled player in any game. What are you getting at?

Er, shouldn't.

1. He has no way of knowing how skilled the opponent is, unless this is ladder with rank showing in some way.

2. Embed related is just not a logical thing to expect, you might even get some experience in MP before encountering this. And that's just one example.

Oh, I don't know maybe all of their other games don't count then?

c&c red alert 2 or tiberian sun available for free somewhere? I could pirate them but looking for a legal way.

i think its free and legal and c&c net is hosting
cncnet.org/

I've seen people calling SC2 shit, calling games that go after BW popularity and esports shit and that's 95% of modern RTS but I haven't seen people calling BW shit. Also what killed is not APM'n'shit it's the focus on gookclick gameplay where instead of allowing the player to focus on tactics the game forces into "micro and APM". CoH while shit in my opinion requires less APM/micro than your average gookclick.
Stay dumb

If you actually played them you would know what was wrong with it then. Not to mention

moddb.com/mods/the-dawn-of-the-tiberium-age

Why doesn't anyone talk about this mod? Classic look on the Tiberium Sun engine, Allies vs. Soviets Vs. GDI vs. NOD.

Age of Empires 3 was the best RTS I have ever played.

I never said that was a good RTS. But if you are talking about unconventional cheese tactics, those exist in pretty much all RTS games. People complained about engineer rushes in the original CnC. At this point you are complaining about strategy in a strategy game.

You complain about micro yet say you want tactics? What do you think tactics is? You want a game where your base and the enemies is connected by teleporters so you just produce, send, and fight? Then you complain about APM, yet I've already told you TBS exist for people like you. Your complaint with RTS games is that they are RTS games. You want dumbed down RTS games? Go play TBSs or MOBAs.

Doesn't have the RA1 superweapons.

i think its because tiberian dawn and red alert dont feel that good outside its original engine and playing them in tiberium sun feels off

Wow, you know it's 18+ site with your infantile mentality, and you wonder why people call your shit bait. Go play some Warzone 2100, kid.

It is as good or bad as BW, which is also ridden with unit abilities and undocumented features, which contribute to the meta a lot.

But that's not even cheese. It's merely an extension of more than a decade old engineers in an APC tactic. This one is just more efficient.

First of all, I'm not complaining but refuting your claim that someone who never played the game in MP and just joined a small MP community with long enough history should only expect to lose purely on a skill disparity basis.
Second, that's not strategy, that's tactics. And most of the time the capturing is done with an engineer, just like old times. The problem is not with this possibility existing but with it being part of le meta, i.e. becoming an obligatory thing to work around. The problem was already described above: majority of players mindlessly repeating same things over and over again until someone with a brain discovers some new gimmick or a new patch is released. At that point playing against a computer-controlled opponent becomes preferable, for lack of a better word.

ay, red alert 2 is not working. Well I guess I have to pirate it then…

amazon.co.uk/Command-Conquer-Ultimate-Download-Code/dp/B0098VNKDQ

I really don't feel like paying £7.33

smh tbh

I actually bought it several times back then because I kept losing either the cd's or the case with the serial number in it.

Try to search for fan-made patches that allow it to run on win10 or whatever it is you have. If there are none, you only option is a virtual machine. VirtualBox will likely work well enough and it's free.

another question, is there a way to make it look decent on a 1440p screen? Everything is tiny as fuck. Also why is the game 7 pounds in amazon, but 25€in Origin? WTF is this scam?

Would have been cool if someone remade those games on a new engine.

By the way, are there any new RTS games that are worth playing?

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why even live

Play against low level ladders or new people for practicing, try watching some videos on youtube for build orders or optimal strats and try to perform it against an easy AI to get the hang of things before going to multiplayer.

Most "pro" players are elitist fucks that will never teach you anything because they either are there to ruin the fun of others or because they're spics/slavs/brs (infact avoid playing against ANY third-world faggots, they always try to cheese), try to speak with someone halfway proficient that is willing to tell you things without jumping you right into the frying pan, there's always someone like that in every community.

What RTS? I have an awful connection but I'll play with you, chances are I am just as shit.

There's turtling, there's rushing and then there's fucking sim city.

I'd play any RTS games with anyone honestly, regardless if their shit. I suggest though that you trying learning some of the classics like AoE2 or C&CRA2 or really any C&C for that matter.

He didn't even use his scout to punch your scout off the villager?
How the fuck does he play video games without dying from all that sodium in his body?

I have a similar experience with most of my friends who say they know how to play RTS games. They play it like fucking Sim City leaving me literally hold the line by myself. They won't play versus with me cause I can kick the shit of 3 of them in at once since they find the concept of leaving their base area fucking alien.

Purgatory is suffering.

Also I'm surprised Universe at War is outside of purgatory considering it's heavily imbalanced and buggy as fuck.

Find really good players, they'll be more likely to give you advice and help. It's always been my experience in PvP games that the mid tier players are generally super hostile and unhelpful, and even the upper tier players, but the REALLY GOOD players who shit all over upper tier players and are fucking gods at the game, those people are usually happy to teach you.

Why is actually being able to enjoy RTS games suffering?

I hate the switch in focus from macro to micro.

World in Conflict 2 never ever.

Especially after the Division

World in Conflict, World War Z edition.

4 player survival holdout against zombie superswarm.

I would play the shit out of this so hard.

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Age of Empires III isnt a purgatory game
Its just not an AOE 2 game

Shoving a game into Purgatory because it wasnt as good as its sequel is retarded
The game has to at least not be good in the first place

What a faggot you are.

Holy shit you're butthurt. Did someone push your shit in with engineers?

I think the best way to describe that is as follows:
Most RTS games have a base game composed with your units, buildings and abilities that you'll use in a standard way to explore, expand, exploit and exterminate your adversary, much like an AI oponent would. You'll have many different tactics available to you by mixing those elements and you can build entire strategies around them, some being more effective than others.

However, at the same time you have another game on top of this one, a game that the AI does not play nor is covered in the singleplayer campaign if the game features one.
This is a game about exploiting abilities and units in unintuitive ways or simply "egg of columbus" ways (as in, it's obvious after you know it, not so much before you know it)
Because nothing in the game prepares a player for this second game, the first multiplayer matches will feel horrible as you'll often lose the first game because you're not playing the second one as well.
However the second game, but it's very nature is quite simple and much easier to play than the first one to the point it's actually quite boring. However, you are forced to play it if you want to avoid losing both games wich leads to many matches featuring copy pasted tactics and strategies that make the whole thing fairly boring. That is, until someone comes up with a different, better way to play the second game and everyone else adapts and incorporates it as well.

The issue here is that I get the feeling a lot of RTS players don't want to play that second game. They want to lead massive armies and build huge bases, see as many different types of units as possible and fight colossal battles. And yet, at every turn they are forced to keep track of a game both sides don't actually enjoy, all because losing at it means losing at the first game.
Some players probably don't care, they play an RTS to actually win, with the same mindset you'd have playing arena shooters. And because of this, they prioritize the second game as it makes winning the first much easier so of course you'd care more about it.

It's just different people looking for different things, although IMO, the second game is fucking cancer and should be designed out of an RTS. All it does is enable cheese and force burden of knowledge onto new players making their first matches fairly frustrating.
I still remenber getting some pointers from a very good Starcraft and Age of Mythology player that completely changed how I played RTS games. He did though me a lot and vastly improved my ability to win matches, but in the end I wasn't doing anything more interesting or fun, I was just doing everything I did before, only more effeciently this time.

Where the fuck do you think you are? And to answer your question, no, I haven't suffered exceptionally from engineers. My only knowledge of this incidence is the screencap of the post claiming to have "lol so epically btfo the devs into nerfing engineers" which read like a load of bullshit to me.

You clearly are the faggot here.

OpenRA has numerous issues with the gameplay. The devs for example for a long time would nerf everything and anything that wasn't Yak spam since that is all they knew how to do. They made Heavy Tanks completely useless since by the time you could actually build them you were better off buying Tesla or even Mammoth tanks. They then started doing stupid shit like giving Soviets the APC, Allies the Hind etc. The OpenRA devs honestly seemed like they wanted to turn the game into more like Starcraft than Red Alert.

Do Tesla tanks have the same stats as Heavy Tanks? Same health? Same cost? Does any of that matter to you, or does not getting them out sooner to initiate a brain dead heavy rush outweigh all that for you?

Neither Starcraft or Red Alert were perfect or are perfect, and both have elements to them that are good. Red Alert always suffered from OP Soviets, so I don't really see the problem with evening things out a bit.

Same issue I always had with engineer cheese.

In any case I don't even use OpenRA for RA, I use it for C&C, and haven't noticed any bad balance decisions in regard to that.

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I never said I had zero experience.

I enjoy AoE:III a fairly large amount but it was deeply controversial on release for a whole variety of reasons, many revolving around the poor online service and introduction of grind to unlock cards for multiplayer. There's also the change in gameplay style that many did not like. Purgatory, as I understand it anyway, is not 'these games are shit' as much as 'these games are controversial'. Hell it says that right there in the image which, granted, I did not make but I believe AoE:III has been in that section for years. Also I think you mean 'wasn't as good as its prequel'.

I don't think it generated any controversy (which is kinda the point of purgatory) but I'll move it down with my magical skills in paint. I'm free next week so I might have a go at making a thread to finally remake this chart if any faggots are up for it. I'm thinking we should have one each for RTS, RTT, TBS and TBT with boxes telling you to fuck off to the other chart when needed. The problem with that is fringe cases like GSG, Rule the Waves and so on. Also Total War.

What the SHID.

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This is how you keep friends.

Holy fuck your worthless opinion is disregarded. You're like that faggot that tried to shill Star Citizen without ever playing it and arguing with people who had.

Aren't engies both totally defenseless and highly vulnerable to anti-infantry attacks from basic fucking infantry though?

Except I never argued in favor of any particular change, I argued against the idea that Engineers shouldn't be balanced. I have played the original RA since 1997 faggot, so I know they weren't perfect before.

APCs + Engineers are pretty hard to stop with basic infantry or even multiple pillboxes. Walls can stop them, but that's gambling that you will get engineer rushed at all and taking the time to build the walls. In the original game walls weren't much of an option without a lot of time on your hands.

In any case I don't know what was changed about engineers in OpenRA to solve their imbalance, but I can tell you what I would have done. I would have made engineers require the tech center in order to be produced.

The list has grown, too bad part of the growth is tumor.

The idea of a remade chart is to cut out the bloat user. Cutting it up into a few separate charts is step one. A standard size for each game cover would help a lot too as would a plan before starting.

I believe after some incredible butthurt caused by an user they changed it to have a charge up to capture instead of instant damage.

Your story is basically why I don't bother learning how to "actually play" RTS games, in spite of them having been one of my bread and butter genres growing up. I learned how to optimally fight bots, and I came to enjoy that. Nothing shits on my experience faster than LoL-tier hypercompetitive faggots.

Granted, the bots are now so easy that I can fill the map with nothing but the hardest AI all allied against me and win every time, so now it's more of a zone-out/relaxation thing than a "have to try" game. But still.

And I enjoy turtling. Fite me.

what

APC requires Warfact and Radar, so it takes enough time for you to build pillboxes/fire towers near the conyard and at least 3-4 light tanks for allies or 2-3 heavy tanks for soviets, and your infantry SHOULD have already scouted his base by the time he gets a warfact online assuming the map is large. It's not that hard to defend against APC+engi unless you're one of those retards that goes 2ref+1harv at the start.

Don't get me wrong, Universe at War is a fun game and I enjoyed it, I'm just saying that from my perspective it felt unbalanced and I know for a fact the game was buggy as shit (especially the HUD).

You're entirely correct user
Universe at War was Fun, But it was Heavily unbalanced, the robot team trumps everyone
I never actually suffered any bugs though which i suppose makes me lucky

Still anyone here make the mistake of Building an entire army of the strongest Units on Masari only to get the army and your entire base hacked?

Guys, tell me about sudden strike, is the series good ?

I wasn't disagreeing with you just stating it wasn't particularly controversial, likely because it isn't remembered much nowadays (and wasn't too big at the time). Empire at War actually had similar balance problems though the expansion helped fix them a fair bit.

Which Warcraft game is the best?
I was always a warhammerfag and never got into the warcraft rts's

I'd honestly start with 3 and go back the way.

Sudden Strike was a viable alternative to Blitzkrieg back in the day (or was it the other way around? can't remember now) Anyhow, looks like that want a piece of that pie that Blitzkrieg 3 is eating right now but without making mistakes Blitz3 did. So far looks nice.

3 is the best. 2 is still fun. 1 is shit.

is blitzkrieg good ?

According to fans, the quality of games is as follows: 1>2>3. 1 is good and tactical, 2 is somewhat different and therefore disliked and 3 is straight up pretty-looking F2P.

Thanks, just downloaded 3.

Yeah, it seems blitzkrieg 3 is 45% on steam, which means it has to be horrendous.
Well, fingers crossed for sudden strike. Even if unit count seems low.

To all you faggots complaining about Micro or APM, some company just released a RTS just for you! Now you have an RTS where you don't need to worry about either Micro or APM!

Thanks, but no thanks.

No, it's shittier than 8bit armies.

That has a bit of a problem with the guys that made it, the same guys behind Monaco that had some huge problems with corruption in the Indie Scene. I'm sure the GG thread will have some more info, but do keep that in mind when thinking about supporting them.

Agree overall.

It's not even that. I've posted the proxy Mothership because it is so thoroughly overpowered, the real pain are smaller things, like stealthed Redeemers crushing everything that's not another epic without de-cloaking, Dozer Blades upgrade giving substantial HP buff to affected units, besides just allowing them to crush infantry, swarms (Scrin basic anti-infantry infantry) introducing huge lag when attacking (1 attack every 10 milliseconds, IIRC) and so on, and so on.
Most of those are essentially bugs. Some of those got fixed, like selecting supposedly AA-only Slingshots or Mantises with units capable of ground-firing and force-firing them. Or Catalyst Cannon (that's what the Mothership is equipped with) omnirape effect persisting on a unit that went through a wormhole. But most were not and that's either the third game or the bigger part of the second game you describe.
Speaking of bugs, were "flying" workers in BW fixed by a patch or not?

I absolutely love to execute hit and run campaigns, initiating several skirmishes at once on different fronts, drops, sneaking artillery to a position where it can inflict critical damage, quick and aggressive breaches that succeed seemingly against all odds and so on. It's not just about slapping blobs of tanks against each other. The problem is there are templates for almost every situation that are favoured by game mechanics, i.e. any strategy or tactics a strategy employs to achieve its goals will be crushed unless it is a "build order" itself. This leads into the next phase: if you scout your opponent doing X, you can with 99.(9)% certainty conclude that he's going to go for Y or Z from that - because that's what the Holy Order of Build Orders decrees.

I was mistaken in a very similar way about C&C until I saw how terrifying are light tanks in large numbers.

The problem I see with it right off the bat, just from this description, is they only see it as a dichotomy, as le pros and filthy casuals. I never had high APM by pro standards, but I had fun playing with low-ish end pros (back in ~1.07 BW times) and posed some challenge to them. Furthermore, I thoroughly enjoy fast-paced, action filled games, I just can't play 10 of them in succession, or 5 each day several days in a row. But I hate modern day braindead templatefests with clickspam. So I guess this game isn't for me.

Truthfully I wanted to try it as a casual strategy with friends. But it appears as though the devs are cancer.

Aside from that, how does it play?

What? Monaco had a smooth sailing without much drama, no?
Tell me more.

Just googled "monaco game indie corruption" and these are the first 3 things I get:
escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.860017-IGF-and-Indiecade-Possible-Racketeering
reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/42x58t/ethicsthe_curious_case_of_monaco_the_igf_and/
steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/0/616187204130921694/

Basically, Indiecade or IGF or whatever that bullshit indie contest was called elected winners not based on their merit but rather on "this game needs help, let's make it win".
Then there's Devs paying money to get the votes, there's menbers of the judge that invested lots of money in companies that won and then made a lot of profit when they were Greenlit for Steam, etc.
Monaco seems to be one of those among others. Another game that might have been given a bunch of awards for a lot of really bad reasons.
Tooth and Tail might be another one going the same way, especially considering how overdone the "tiny animals and mice as heroes" has been done.

The concept actually looks interesting and I hope that this time there's no shady shit going on here, but that's up to everyone that wants to try their game.

Well, at least game is fun. Still, shady as fuck.
Not intrested in their rts tho.
Control with gamepad, simplicity… Of course, all rts needs some gimmick shit.

Only if they spam tesla towers. IIRC Allied Meds shoot 1.5 times faster than Soviet Heavy tanks, which leads them to win on 2v2 and foward situations. Light tanks comparatively deal more damage to infantry with their smaller caliber guns and shoot even faster than Meds, they're also way more maneouvreable than Heavies so they can slip past defenses or encircle squads of heavy tanks easily. You can also produce Meds and Lights way faster than any soviet can produce Heavy tanks, which leads to you always outnumbering and outgunning Soviets.

Wouldn't that be horribly inefficient though?
or is it just 2 refs with their free harvesters plus one more harvester, which would still require having at least a war factory, and thus having access to units that can counter engies in APCs?
In either case, just 2 refs would probably work just as well, especially if you're playing Yuri.

How the fuck are soviets op ? I get my ass handed to me regularly by allies as both soviets and yuri.
Battle fortress guardians have higher range than most fucking towers. Those flyer troops are effective from start to endgame and the bloody prism tank is unstoppable.

There's two ways to do 2ref+1harv with selling one of the refs and rebuilding it as one of them, which is slow as fuck and can end with you losing outside of a teamgame. The problem about doing 2ref+1harv with 10k starting credits with a warfactory is that you can't buy any combat units for a bit except for like a pair of tanks and maybe 10 infantries without delaying the harvester, which again isn't enough to counter an APC and 4-5 engies.

Also we're talking RA1 here, Allies need Radar for APC and in OpenRA Soviets also get APC for some stupid reason i don't know, guess the devs never had a group of APCs with tesla troopers being dropped behind their tank battalions before.

Yeah, something like that. LTs also had the benefit of being much faster, thus you could do devastating "run-bys" or hit-and-runs if you caught opponents HT blob on the move. Ordos main hovertanks from Emperor take this even further, it's pure terror darting to and fro at lightning speed.

Since you're playing YR, you could always try siege choppers. Not sure as I haven't played RA2 in a long while, but mass conscript works well against pure anti-armour tank columns. But prisms have scatter, so who knows. Maybe booby-trapped flak-tracks?

never got many chances as yuri, since most games banned yuri. When they didn't allies would spam battle fortress with 5 guardians in it. Thing has more range than anything yuri has from towers to mincontrol tanks. The only thing that can reach it is the magnetron tank and it's gimmicky as fuck.

In RA2, Prism tanks basically wipe out anything short of Heavy armor, and every shot scatters 3-5 ways with half the strenght of the main shot which is already enough to vaporize infantry in one hit. Without counter artillery, air support or a really strong armoured push, you can't deal with prismtanks without suffering heavy losses, and then comes the problem of 4+ Prisms oneshotting your tanks and every single one scattering enough rays to completely devastate a blob of tanks, and they aren't exactly slow glass cannons like the russian V2s are.

They are pretty expensive tho. IIRC BFs themselves are 2000 and each GGI is 600. And 5 GGIs would mean very little anti-infantry. Yes, I know that 5 of those would kill a tesla trooper with one salvo anyway, but that's why you don't throw slow and expensive infantry at it.
Although I do agree that YR introduced a large imbalance, with Soviets suffering the most.

I remember that, but conscripts are cheap enough and can be produced fast enough (doubly so in original RA2) so that they can potentially overwhelm prisms with right manoeuvring with comparable cost. But, again, that's pure theory, this has to be attempted, quite possibly unsuccessfully.
I wouldn't even try to stop a large number of prisms with rhinos though.

And V3's are just shit.

Holla Forums RTS night when

never ever but i would love to get back into tiberian sun

I was tempted to join when others offered the last few threads, but with my current project I'm all but exhausted and the end the of day. That and we'd have to get the same VPN-like client.

400. GIs are 200. So maybe not so expensive.

the aog2 games were good

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No regrets, even though £A shat on the series eventually. Wish the unpatched version still existed so I can play simcity and trench warfare with nod.

Apparently the touhou fags on their general are having Age of Ethanols games every weekend, we could do the same with Tibsun or RA2.

UAW never had an expansion though. Not that I can find anyway.

why didnt anyone tell me this?

I would've headed over there if I'd known
Touhou music is great, if albeit a bit unoriginal

anons tyalking about the empire at war expansion, Forces of corruption, which added a 3 way
I still think it made the game a bit more unbalanced but most people prefer more teams over balance
Its why WBC3 was so popular despite WBC2 being more balanced
Also 3 ways are great

THIS SHIT RIGHT HERE
THIS IS THE PROBLEM

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Nah. This is the general disliking for pro players who min/max everything. Even in turn based games there are best races to play. In shit like diablo I was got laughed at for starting a non-effective hero like a barbarian for a first character.
The games should simply not be geared towards e-sports or casuals. They should be middle ground games.
Age of empires is great at start but also turns into min/max strategies with some builds viable at very specific time periods.
Having a nasty competitive scene is not as much murder for RTS as you think it is. It just needs to not be geared only towards a competitive scene like starcraft 2.

For that to happen first, games like Starcraft 2 has to die for the good of the genre. Publishers follow the dosh and right now because of "muh esport", the dosh is at competitive gaming. It's fucking cancer how many modern RTS try to emulate SC2 and to a lesser extent, ASSFAGGOTS just to try to get those sweet e-celeb money, not realising they're playing a losing game against already entrenched giants. Grey Goo died precisely for that reason. Well okay, GG was also kinda bland but it was clear they wanted to gear it towards competitive esports when it first dropped.

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I don't get why people think that of grey goo.
I know some starcraft rejects tried to treat it like a competitive game, but I never saw it as such. Those guys played and stream for the first month playing the most cheesy builds they could, yet that doesn't make the game e-sports tier.
It was bland, expensive, heavy on the system, but I don't think it was e-sporty. It was just limited, it never had what it was to be really good at multiplayer.

Plannetary annihilation game doesn't even have a singleplayer campaign. Not one cinematic for it. That one was aimed at multiplayer only.

Ashes of singularity seems bland as fuck.
Etherium was garbage.
Cossacks 3 is just a reworked old game.
8bit armies/hordes are simplistic as fuck.
Total war warhammer is supposedly a limited total war, with horrendous dlc.

The only good one I can think of is ultimate general: american civil war, but that is early access and possibly wargame.
And the rest are indie tier or early access garbage.

We haven't had a game worth a shit in a while. And worth a shit means both singleplayer campaign and skirmish + multiplayer with modding.

I know that feel

This is the big problem. Most RTS games that come out now try to focus on multiplayer and the singleplayer is an afterthought if they even bothered to include one. I loved some of the campaigns in older RTS games and they served as a great way for new players to get used to a game before trying multiplayer.

Now everything is geared towards "competitive" multiplayer and Esports instead of just being a good game. We don't get complete experiences anymore, we just get games trying to copy Starcraft 2 and focusing on multiplayer. They usually include all of the shit parts of those kind of RTS games as well from APM build order racing to "every unit needs to have a super special gimmick ability".

Fucking this
What happened to plane normal units like zerglings or ultralisks from SC1?
No abilities, just pure stats
And even then those units are made to fit a specific purpose
I missed Building units that served different purposes despite not having any abilities

Meanwhile in dow3 even heavy walkers have at least 2 active abilities, one of which a charge.
Even the fucking passives are styled like something out of dota or in this case HoN:

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maybe he names his images as if he were tagging them on a booru

I'm sorry user, I'm too lazy to make separate folders

DoW3 gets more and more disappointing every time I hear something new about it.

I guess it's pandering to the APM competitive fags. They are gonna click something anyway, might as well put a button they can click instead of just cycling production buildings.
It's also pretty great for pseudo-strategy where a unit looks harder to use because you need to manually activate it's ability at a specific time.

I tried KOHAN2 once and that game kinda sucked since you barely did anything after a war started, you just watched as it unfolded and units used their abilities automatically.
It kinda sucked since you make up for that with an incredible variety in units you can use and how you aproach combat and use terrain but the game is incredibly limited in that department.
But then I look at Starcraft and the most "tactical" thing about the terrain is cliffs and high ground. If all units used their abilities automatically based on triggers instead of requiring you to do it manually, the game would be seen as even more boring. In fact, "pro" players say this where they argue for a lot of shitty things like bad pathfinding so there's a "skill gap" because you can squeeze 60 units through tiny gaps faster than your oponent can or you can cycle all your casters and activate their abiltities faster than your oponent.
In an RTS, a game about strategy, "pros" brag about their execution and how much bullshit they can handle and still play fine.

Initially I was wary of the global abilities in Generals, but when C&C3 released I was actually enjoying it and wanted for units to be intelligent enough to use their abilities automatically. I'm overseeing the entire operation, I don't have time to tell that particular confessor squad when to throw grenades. I suppose it can be done Total Annihilation-style, with settings for automatic ability usage (for example, "use at will", "use defensively", "never use").

Whoops nevermind. We need a new thread, we're on page 13.

But user thats too complicated for todays Gamers
Todays Gamers need to have every unit to have abilities and also for none of them to be autocast, Otherwise Theres no skill
And everyone knows Skill = FUN

But I don't mind people showing their micromanagement skills in RTT or 3D arcades, like MOBAs. And RTS can have proper toolset to focus on actual strategy first and foremost.

I completely agree with you
The whole purpose of RTTs is generally showing off micromanagement skills

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