Is VR dead?

What about full games that you would still use gamepads for? Any benefit?

I tired DCS F-15 with a DK2 and it fucking blew my mind. I think using VR headsets for sit-down simulations is top tier as of right now. However, for things that require movement and fine motor skills, a lot of R&D is still needed.

It's a cool new mode of viewing the game world. Rather than using tiny portal in front of you, you have CGI enveloping all around you. But it's not an overwhelming difference, no. It's like transition from b/w gameboy to gbc graphics-wise.

Do you find yourself playing games modded for VR often and/or for extended periods?

I played House of the Dying Sun with a gamepad initially and it was fine. What it comes down to is whether there's value in the ability to freely move your head around - nobody is likely to give a shit about being able to headlook for a game played in third person, but if you're playing a cockpit game like HotDS or E:D, it's a pretty fantastic experience. First-person shooters like Half-Life VR also benefit, but you'd want motion controllers because your avatar in the game is doing physical body movement as the main form of action.

In HLVR you used a thumbstick to move gordon around but used motion controls to aim your weapon, which meant you could aim over barricades and around corners. Heaps of fun.

Yea, I remember doing Quake 2 VR in one sitting. I've also spent hours upon hours in iRacing and LiveForSpeed.

Ultimately my stance on VR is that it's getting there, but needs a bit more work before I throw more money at it. I heard that HTC will be announcing a new Vive model at CES in january, so I'll probably wait for that. I'm not keen on buying the Oculus because you have to have their shitty software open in order to run anything with it.

God, what if I find the idea of using motion controls fucking terrible and am looking more for gamepad experiences? Is it that mind fucking to see your character doing movements that you aren't?

It's only good for watching videos.

If you find that, it's because nintendon't with it's shitty wagglan has poisoned the well. The VR motion controls are actually 1:1 positional tracking. You don't waggle to do shit, instead the virtual point moves exactly to the point where the controller moves. If a gun is mapped to that point, then it effectively acts as if you're physically holding it and moving it around.

honey select, playclub and custom maid 3d 2 are your only options at the moment. They're pretty good but you gotta ask yourself if it's worth the expenditure. I still find myself getting off to just 2D or normal porn more than VR.

There will be plenty of gamepad-only VR games, user. The Oculus CV1 can be bought without its motion controllers, and comes with an XB1 controller I think. Pretty much any game where you're piloting some kind of vehicle is unlikely to benefit much from motion controls, so racing games and the like will be fine with a gamepad. I played DIRT 2 on a friend's CV1 and used his xbawks controller.

Personally I'm really keen for an FPS with motion controls like that game Onward, but the cockpit experience is also great. Playing Elite with VR and a HOTAS is very cool.

Sorry for the shitty videos of HLVR with bad movement and motion controls, this was like the first day I got the stuff and I haven't recorded much in VR since then.

What? Only headset I tried for 30min was a latest Vive and even I really wanted to buy a VR headset the resolution was absolutely SHIT, everything was blurry as hell, low-res and screen door effect was terrible. If you really want to buy high grade VR headset then save money when it'll actually come with 4k display - it isn't prefered resolution for VR but a minimal one for me. Also straps from vive/rift are shit tier and psvr system looks way more comfortable, didn't try it though.

Microsoft are making his own rip-off from psvr which will have tracking w/o cameras, 1080p display and cost only 300$ so I'll probably buy this one for elite.

Honestly that looks awful. Why did they do that?

Because putting the arms in is difficult and the motion controls were implemented by some random modder. It's also using older motion control (Razer Hydra) which is a bit weird, but the video doesn't really show exactly what you end up seeing in the headset. Felt pretty natural when you're "in" the world - hand position was fairly accurate in game. I haven't tried any other motion control games but I imagine that the vive's motion control system is a whole lot better.

PSEye is a camera you dickweed. Also it's only fullhd, which is way lower than Vive. Also NOGAEMS because sony-exclusive.

So this means I can develop normal games with no worry, yay!

Where I wrote it isn't? The microsoft's VR will have no camera and all tracking inside headset but it uses almost the same design as psvr.

Doesn't matter, all of headsets have fucking too low res.

If it's 1080p that's the same as the DK2, so it'll be very hard to read some of the text in Elite. You might want to look at the OSVR thing - I haven't read much about it but it seems like a promising budget solution.

Ultimately I think some of the responsibility should be on FDev who should just rescale the UI fonts for VR. If there was an option to display text in bold and 150% size everything would be fine. Screen door effect is still going to be there though, because darker games have it worse and Elite is very dark.

man I cant even play Quake 2 normally :C it doesnt boot through steam and the forums all give different answers…

Get an engine port like KMQuake2 or something, and try getting a pirate copy instead of using steam.

You need the Quake2 source port with VR support, not Quake2 from Steam.

The difference is that microshaft has been working on inside-out tracking for several years now and sony haven't. Also their tracking is still massive shit, which is why GearVR with Carmack behind its tracking system still doesn't have it. It's good but it has problems (less than microshit's tracking but still) so they don't release it.

Stop thinking VR is great for every genre, it's not. It's great for simulators that don't have mouse aim or walking to deal with. You put on VR, sit at your desk with a steering wheel and play a racing sim with the best situational awareness possible. Same goes for flight sims.

If pic related get good and cheap then we might see decent games that involve walking but that isn't going to be any time soon.

I just want something like the original arcade Time Crisis where you had light guns with ridiculous force feedback and working slides, but in VR.

My dreams will never come true.

This tbh fam. I can see VR bringing in huge possibilities for Arcades and special events, but as a home console, It's going to need a shit ton of more time before the tech catches up with it.

They already have shitty VR treadmills for movement. I don't know about the second one, but the first uses slippery shoes and you're just walking around in a stationary bowl.

That is why I said they will need to get good before it's a realistic option. For now seated VR simulators is going to be the best experience and if VR arcades become a thing it should lead to better and cheaper walkers over time.

I'm just gonna ignore all this shit until they develop a holodeck. Thats the only VR I want.

That level of experience will be impossible without some type of cerebral manipulation. Are you willing to have tech implanted in your brain to finally be with your waifu?

I've only tried PSVR.

For me VR is just an expensive way to increase immersion, it adds nothing to gameplay. Kinda of like buying a larger monitor just to enjoy your games.

There's barely any good content for PSVR right now. Personally I'm waiting for more games worth getting to come out or when the new upcoming full games with first person cameras start getting PSVR support.

I don't understand why they make these shitty VR exclusive $20-$30 games instead of just adding VR support to the new upcoming full games or games that already exist.

VR has some fucking fantastic applications, but they'll never be explored because the entire vidya industry is just cucks, retards and worthless artfags.
There are no innovators anymore, and there is no effort anymore.

This is why almost all VR apps are (((EXPERIENCES))) rather than games, and why you can't move around freely. It all has to be teleport-around safe space bullshit for genetically deficient pieces of shit who get "motion sick".

One of the best VR experiences ever was Alien Isolation - which is surprising given both the game's utter mediocrity, and the fact that the VR support was barely functional and abandoned during development.
It's not surprising that subsequent firmware updates have made it all but impossible to play Alien Isolation in VR anymore, because such a high quality experience obviously damages the narrative of safe-space-teleport VR they're pushing.

VR didn't die, it was murdered.

Seated VR is fantastic for games with walking and mouse aim, as long as they're done correctly. Motion sickness is not a problem as long as the player is always in control of the POV, and aiming is not a problem as long as the aiming reticule is decoupled from the camera.

Standing-scale or room-scale VR is mostly just for waggleshit games. Seated VR that immerses you in real vidya is where it's at. It's also sadly where VR is not going, and thus why the only VR apps on the market are shallow minigame or sportsball shit. It's the Wii all over again.

Were the wagglan gimmicks of the Wii ever used properly?

No.

So what makes anyone think the industry will use the VR gimmick properly? Besides, it's a development in the wrong direction to begin with, just like 3D in movies.

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i tried hl2 with the vive earlier today and it just made me nauseous

the resolution was pretty shitty as is par for the course with the vive so things were kind of blurry and couldn't read the HUD because everything towards the edges of the screen blurs

your videos look different to what i played though. there was no ammo meter on the sides of the gun and freeman's hand had an arm attached to it which you could see through the end of

False, motion sickness is a huge problem because a lot of methods of movement that you can do in a game are not natural. This combined with your inner ear not pinging that there is movement your brain is kind of going whatthefuckisthisshit.jpg. This is the defacto reason that games where you just sit on your ass is a much smoother experience then ones where you "walk around" doing full 90 or 180 degree turns or move in a circle while looking perfectly straight.

Motion control is the future of gaming.

FTFY

Motion sickness is a problem because faggots no longer believe in git gud.
Only 10% of those suffering from motion sickness which is less than half of all at first are so genetically inferior that they can't overcome it with some experience.

What is Red Steel 2?

Huh first I've heard of this Microsoft VR headset that isn't the hololens(which was both VR and AR).

Agree but you can buy an okay phone with 1080p resolution plus a decent headset to mount it in for a lot less than $300 right now. In a year repeat with another phone that has a USB-C port(to stream video over) and 2k+ resolution. The lower end of the market has already been claimed, I see phone holders for VR in stores everywhere already.

A year ago this would have been considered obsolete while in 2016-17 it's pathetic. The CV2 and Vive V2(rumoured to be much cheaper) will be announced by the time they ship while the PSVR might get a price cut and official PC drivers by then. There's also Google's Daydream View headset that will come out, the market is already crowded.

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that video made me rock fucking hard. that is exactly what i want from a space sim: bassy thumps from weapon discharges, a weird all-up-in-your-face HUD. is it as good as it looks?

You should play 5089, user-kun.

Quake 2 had its source code released a decade and a half ago, user-kun.

Used one at PAX two years back. Kinda shit, the sphere has too much momentum, which makes it very hard to change directions at anything but a very slow walk.

DK2 owner here. Seriously tempted by a Vive or the like, but I'm probably going to wait for second gen.

I've been tossing around ideas with my boss (who does 3d vidya art as a hobby) about doing a dungeon crawler. The entire gist would be to have a GM setting up the scenario, not unlike NWN. I feel like motion controls could lend themselves to fantasy very well, especially with things like archery, or hand motions/drawing symbols in the air for spellcasting. Pop people in multiplayer, add nifty customization options (does the ranger use a back or shoulder quiver? where are your pouches?), give them minigames like motion control lockpicking, add solid cRPG stats and mechanics to the background (only high-STR characters can smash chests open), let DMs put together tile-based maps, and you could have a bitchin' dungeon crawler. It's a cool niche somewhere between LARP, tabletop D&D, and normal vidya.

Shit, imagine having to actually grab a health potion from your belt and bring it to your face to chug it. With motion controls. In VR. That would be fucking rad.

People want to sit down for their video games and movies. Exercise is for exercise, not escapism and having fun.

The mod I was playing in those videos is HLVR, played with a Razer Hydra motion controller. Though I'm pretty static in those videos the idea is you use the motion controllers to track your hands in order to aim, so you can point the gun behind you etc. It still has a bit of motion weirdness because you use a thumbstick to move around and turn your body (you can turn your head with the headset and aim with the hydra, but the thumbstick turn changes your 'forward' direction for movement). A lot of the people who tried it out on my setup found it to be upsetting, and I played sitting down most of the time because I felt like I was going to fall over sometimes. Overall a really great demo of the concept that I hope is improved with newer games like Onward and Bullet Train.

It's very short, but it's a pretty great game overall. I wish they'd had the resources to make something of equivalent scale to Freespace but with their particular style of gameplay and aesthetics. I think they're inpsired by homeworld and freespace. I bought it as soon as it hit early access on steam because I'd been following its development for a while. Your mileage may vary trying to get a joystick running - I haven't tried using my HOTAS with it, just used a gamepad (which is pretty good anyway).

I read recently that a second-gen Vive is possibly going to be announced in January, so I'm going to wait probably until at least then (otherwise mid-year 2017) before considering more VR hardware. Check out Onward (vid related) for motion control inventory management. It looks great from what I can tell. My only gripe is that the tracking on the Hydra is rather shaky so fine movement and aiming was a bit weak. I hear the vive's motion tech has similar shaking issues, but the Rift Touch is supposed to use a different technique.

There are carbon fiber ones now that weigh nothing but cost more than my car.

When was the last time you saw anything sold for 50 cents? At VR arcades like the one in Sega's Joypolis park it's $1.66 a minute in a 45 minute chunk.

Had a similar idea for dungeon crawling but using OpenMW as a base. Being able to design and populate dungeons on the fly as players go through it isn't too far fetched. Useable VR and multiplayer will be added sooner or later and the construction set would allow for any style of campaign or be modified for DMing. Realistically it's still a decade away from being possible though, unless something incredible happens.

This might be hard to believe to someone who hasn't experienced it but the 'runner's high' isn't a myth. After you've subjected your body to enough exercise endorphins start flowing and you want to keep going for hours on end every day. If this sensation could be combined with VR and video games in a non gimmicky way it'll be a huge deal. The initial effort that's required makes it seem unlikely to ever happen though.

You don't even need VR to remember the "runner's high" with videogames- the DDR craze ten years ago proved that people will sweat for hours over videogames they like. The problem is getting good games and a good VR setup at the same time, which is too risky for anyone to risk money on.

Are we talking about Ghost in the Shell level technology? I bet it would be useful for much more than just waifu simulation. I wan't my remotely controlled mecha double.

*wan't → want

This is why AR and robot waifus are superior.

It was a fad similar to the Wii balance board for the WiiFit. You're right though, I completely forgot about it. And as long as the VR setup costs less than a grand and comes in a box that can fit on a store shelf it's not going to be a problem. It's going to become more affordable and capable as time goes on, the Atari 2600 cost almost $800 and the NES $700 in today's money.

And of DDR Adam Lanza of the staged Sandy Hook shooting would play it for hours on end. There's video of him playing it in a mall on youtube.

Duke 3D was pretty good, Quake 2 was awesome. HL2 was also pretty fun but the lack of detail in places really shows. L4D2 was nifty

At best (in our lifetime) we're talking a high quality HMD + cerebral implant(s) manipulating the electrical impulses in your brain to make you think what you're seeing is real, and that you can feel/experience it. There would probably also be hallucinogens involved.

I don't think we'll ever have the tech to "digitize" your brain like GitS, and if we did, it'd probably turn out like SOMA.

Much more reasonable option. We could have voice recognition with pre-programmed responses and custom silicone blend "shells" similar to Real Dolls, internals likely made of aluminum/carbon fiber with most of the weight (for that realistic feel) coming from a large battery. Vision would be an issue, but as long as you don't mind your waifu being a talking, mildly ambulatory cock sleeve, I think we'll see those within the next decade or so.

I'm still optimistic that it's going to become popular in the near future, it's just needs to have a price cut which can be achieved in the second gen launch.

For as much as I wish this shit would catch on, think about a hitman game where you actually do all that crap…… didn't the protective bar brake easily?

Price cut isn't going to fix it without good games, just like price cuts didn't fix 3D TVs/Monitors when there was a complete lack of worthwhile 3D content. Without a large install base, there's no incentive to develop any tasty VR exclusives, and without those tasty VR exclusives, there's not going to be a large install base.

Someone is going to need to bite the bullet, and fund development for a AAA killer app for VR, and my money is on Sony, since they seem to be putting an awfully lot of eggs in their PSVR basket.

Could be, I know they still haven't launched yet so I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of issues with the handful of early (and in some cases pre-production) models they've sent out. They're planning on shipping a couple (and I do mean a couple) in December, and then 50 in January. It's mostly molded plastic, so breakage is to be expected. The real question is, how are they going to handle rolling out the inevitable V2 model (or if they'll still be around to do so).

Good games can be made, I'm surprised game devs aren't fiddling with god games, that genre is tailor made for VR with motion controls.

Anyone tried the PIMAX 4K VR thing that some chinese company made
larger resolution than vive than cuckculus, only 300€ too

It's a gimmick for shit like skyrim, faggot 4, deus ex, etc. It's not a gimmick for porn, racing simulators, flight simulators, etc.
Don't get it for FPS games, that's just stupid.

These niggas understand it.

Extremely niche genre that I can't see being revived in any meaningful way. Even with that RA2 remake you posted, the VR is just a slower, clumsier control alternative to M/KB.

Even Racing/Flight Sims are extremely niche, and not enough to prop VR up.

Is pic related any good? With that I mean good games, the device itself is pretty good as I tried it out somewhere.

I might buy this shit in combination with the PS4 HD that comes out this week or next week or sometimes.
I didn't buy consoles this generation because they suck mayor ass.
But the PS4 VR seems to be the only affordable VR and it's at least decent. Will also probably have the most games (not counting shitty indie tech demos).

I'm not gonna spend 800€ for a Vive/Oculus and another 500€ for a graphics card upgrade.

Being slower does not mean worse, god games were never about speed. Take Black & White for example, that game I would rather play in VR with motion controls than a mouse, launching fireballs towards a direction in that game was a bitch.

I got B&W on release, (due to reading about it in either GamePro or PC Gamer, don't remember which) and I found taming my little brain damaged tiger to be tedious and boring once the initial charm wore off a couple hours in. Not a B&W fan at all (still have the CD though).

I do think in that specific case motion controls would be an improvement, just because of how you interacted with the game, and how it would be thematically correct, but again that's such a tiny niche I don't see that sort of thing being a system selling killer app, I see it as more of a "toy" that you play for a little while and then are just done with, like Seaman. In today's climate, most normalfags would rather watch their favorite jewtube personality play those types of games than actually play said games themselves.

So far, Onward is the only game I can almost see being VR's killer app, but it's still too rough around the edges visually (even as an early access title) and more OpFlash/ARMA than BF/CoD, which really isn't the type of game normalfags want so there's not a lot of mass market appeal there. Shit, when was the last time they even tried that on consoles? MAG, I guess? I don't think anyone even remembers that game.

I recall GitS having dual electronic/biological cyborg brains, not their digital replicas that are a different thing entirely. Do you remember what the "ghost" in the title stands for?

No, it's been over a decade since I watched it. I really should re-watch it though, there's hardly anything worth watching and I've probably forgotten enough about GitS to fully enjoy it again.

Motion sickness is only a problem if you're a limp wristed faggot, and that's a fact.

recent studies have shown that VR-Motion sickness is related to physical fitness. The more physically fit you are, the more susceptible you are to VR-Motion sickness. It's hypothesised that fit people are more in tune with reality and when visual feedback doesn't quite match their physical activity, the brain goes a little crazy and you get massive headaches.

Pull your monitor close to your face (~1.5 feet), and then play something like Metro 2033 with the like pin prick ~45° FoV by default. It's probably not going to make you toss your cookies, but it's definitely enough to give most people a headache or make them extremely uncomfortable.

Now here's the weird thing, if you shrink the screen and pull it really close (VR), the larger your FoV, the more likely you are to develop headaches/motion sickness. Strange, right?

Haven't heard this, but that's a very interesting theory.

This is why this VR bullshit will never lift off beyond anything but as a curiosity to chronic masturbators.

Computer scientist here, this is my area of research.

First of all, there is a difference in motion sickness and what happens in VR, which is cybersickness.
Motion sickness is induced by the stimulation of the vestibular system (inner ear, sense of balance) and can appear without visual cues (so even with closed eyes) (Bruck & Watters, 2009; Held, 1961; Reason, 1978)
Cybersickness requires visual stimulation (Bruck & Watters, 2009; Kennedy & Fowlkes, 1992; McCauley & Sharkey, 1992).

There are two theories why it happens:
- sensory conflict theory by Reason and Brand (1975): The sickness is caused by the difference of the perceived position of ones head and body vs. the expectations: You see yourself move, but your inner ear tells you you didn't.
- the better one is named postural instability theory by Riccio and Stoffregen (1991): people continually seek postural stability. If we perceive deviations, we try to compensate. VR fucks that process up.

When this happens, our brain wants to know why. If it can't it tries to get you out of that situation by inflicting pain (headache, eye strain).
Or it thinks you must be poisoned and you are getting sick.
There is not much you can do about that, those are ancient evolutionary mechanisms. Some react harder than others.

tl;dr: Shit that VR games shouldn't do
- move your head without you actually moving your head (be it translation or rotation)
- "usual" movement controls, like from FPS games. It feels a bit like the floor suddenly moves. Personally I can stomach it, but not everybody can. It's not comfy either way.

That's why you have teleporting and this "comfort VR mode" where looking around "snaps" after some degrees of turning in some games.

I have played Metroid Prime in VR. It is an incredible visual experience, but there's definitely a motion sickness aspect to it that you need to learn to overcome.

It only takes one app to make VR worth every penny: For me it's PlayClub, god bless Illusion, mods and room tracking.

this is like the hardest thing to do right now,you need a large space.

was the alien full touch controls? or was it still gamepad or mouse and keyboard?

While you're at it check out ARISE, which is a pretty good prequel to the first movie.

I'm a fatass but a couple of friends who own VR kits are highly fit and they have no problems with VR. I've also had friends who are unfit get seriously motion sick. I think the connection is more likely to be how accustomed the player is to controlling a camera on a screen - anyone who plays a lot of FPS games in my experience has had very little trouble with motion sickness. I barely get anything even after hours of play and very extreme effects, but that's probably because I've spent the better part of my life in front of a screen playing shootans

Huh, actually research with peer reviewed sources on Holla Forums. Now I've seen everything.

Does anyone have any delicious "Thin Privilege" tales of fat people being too rotund to use the harnesses, or their excessive weight making even the slippery shoes not work due to friction? Or maybe about losing games because they keep getting winded trying to grapple with basic navigation in these virtual worlds?

I want to hear some buttery hams cry about how immersive VR is designed for thin/fit people only.

Depending on how good you are, that's still pretty cheap. Used to be .25 cents for three lives. If you were shit at a game, you could easily blow through $5.00 in 45 mins. And that was back in the 90's when .25 cents then was worth .40 cents in today's money.

VR for fps is off the charts enjoyment for me

Simulators take it even farther.

REMINDER THAT PEOPLE WHO TAKE THE MOTION SICKNESS MEME ARE FUCKING BABIES

I was playing Quake VR with no headtracking and just a mouse and keyboard. I played for at least 4 hours and had ZERO I repeat ZERO nausea or "motion sickness" or whatever other crybaby meme you have.

I'm starting to think that people who have the mosick shit meme are people who get dizzy when they stand up or turn around too quickly.

VR, for me, adds a layer of enjoyment to ANY game. You DON'T need headtracking to enjoy it. You DON'T need gimmicky little shitbaby wiimotes to enjoy it. It's a FANTASTIC MONITOR REPLACEMENT. Great for multi-desktop setups and saves you on space.

The best thing you can do to get into vr is to buy a chinese phone with a 4k display that will run lollipop and has a decent processor after that buy a chinese headset/lens combo TETHER THAT MOTHERFUCKER AND ENJOY

It's really simple, it's what I do and it's made all of my old favorites at least those that can be forced into working or have ongoing development and support really shine again.

JUST DONT BUY FROM A MEME COMPANY. DO NOT BUY VR MEME GAMES. DO YOUR OWN THING AND YOU WILL ENJOY IT

You can't kill what was never alive to begin whit.

no, we are IN virtual reality.

I know someone people have tried shit like Bioshock with a degree of success but you've still got lasting issues of motion sickness and difficulty in controlling the game when you can't see the fucking keyboard.

VR doesn't give me motion sickness just burning headaches

If you really can play it on a chinese phone good for you but I doubt it will get popular anytime soon

Bull fucking shit
I'm average/chubby and felt fine, while my friend that was fit/skinny had a headache all night.

Post link or I will post you as a liter on the internet

quick everyone, bully the nerd
thx user, is for people like you I keep comping to this shithole

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That supports the hypothesis. Inactive fat pieces of shit lack the motorskills to feel cybersick.

How good is the (((Google))) Cardboard with a 1080p 5.5" phone anyway? I got a place where it's dirt cheap to get one pre-made.

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The positional tracking of phones is relative, not absolute. That means your position drifts after a while.
It's a nice thing if you've never experienced VR before, but compared to a Vive for example it's like bike vs car, and not only because of the tracking.

Does it work if I just use it in place of a monitor? i.e not using tracking to look around, but only use it to display the two rendered frame and use my mouse to look around

Post more thick girls.

The latency of transferring the data from your pc to your phone would be incredibly high, unless it has HDMI or something.
Also, the looking around part is the main thing that enables immersion/presence and makes VR… well VR.
It's like asking if you can remove the motor of your car and push it around.
Sure, you can do that, but why?

I love the possible depth perception. The cross-eye stereogram made me completely lose it when I finally managed to do it after like a year trying.

VR adds a whole new different layer to it with the head tracking.
Try out the Google Cardboard.
There is not much content for it, but I think you will like it as a first experience.

It's pretty amusing seeing all those venture capitalist billions being poured into VR. Good luck with that.

WE ARE VR

Jesus Christ an informative, well thought out and reasonable post on Holla Forums. Thanks user.

It died the moment both its creators were assassinated.

I guess

No, it's become more and more active recently. You should post with us!
>>>/vr/

lel