Is this the equivalent of the Second Comming of Christ but for Leftists?
Class consciousness will happen any minute now
Class consciousness is already happening you fucking idiot. If you left your basement and actually talked to some workers you might know that.
I'm a worker you stupid idiot and i don't see anything moving beyond petit-bourgeois.
Maybe if you got your head out of your ass you'd realize you're not winning.
none of us think that leftist revolution and class consciousness is something that is just destined to happen. Capitalism going into crisis and class struggle intensifying is definitely happening and something we all agree on, and in that there is opportunity.
4/10 you got me to reply
Leftcoms were right again.
yes, it is
It's a process, not a fucking spark. Plus a great deal of theorists believed it was only possible if the ruling ideology was challenged.
You're claiming independent though and exposure to different philosophies has no effect in daily life.
They can, it shows fascists aren't the only ones interested in grassroots organization. But ya, antifa is more about scaring fascists than interacting with proles.
only anarchists believe that, there must be planning and praxis beforehand.
No, we have seen revolutions fail before, it's not a passive position.
You're describing LeftComs and Post-Leftists really.
This answer I like.
It's a fucking tankie, Go fuck yourselves everyone else.
any evidence of it working?
Greece and pic related.
Cuckservatives weren't and it is a very good precedent.
so the cuckservatives were scared, but the fascists were not scared?
how can you say it was working, then
I honestly wish leftists would go to protests or walk around in groups
1. Legally armed and in a place they are allowed to pen carry
2. Red and Black flags + American flags (or local country)
3. Faces uncovered and not intimidating people
4. Actively friendly and helpful to people
I've seen enough normal leftists at protests.
The problem is how to reach the 95% of the rest of America that ignores protests, only watches cable TV, and never participates in social events amenable to public political discussion.
As a novice, I'm really confused by this bit. I thought the whole thing about materialism was supposed to be that the base - that is capitalism - was supposed to be dominant over the superstructure, so surely the theories of Marx imply that the contradiction of capitalism itself should give rise to class conflict, and then all revolutionaries have to do is lead and organize these people.
If instead, people aren't even class conscious, doesn't that suggest that capitalism hasn't actually gone far enough yet?
Consider this: The entirety of the right except some fringe sections of the far-right LOVES capitalism. But most of the liberal left don't hate capitalism, they just think it needs to be managed or "mixed" with "socialism" (lmao). Even modern socdems tend to believe that. Consider the radical left who genuinely hate capitalism, and you're talking about not that large a percentage of the populace.
Almost half of workers love capitalism (center-right and lolbergs).
The other almost half dislike unfettered capitalism and want to moderate it in the mixed economy (center-left, many modern socdems).
Only then do you get the fringe who hate capitalism and want to abolish it (the true left, socialists, commies, anarchists).
Yet, if materialism is true, then how is it that this is the case. Surely, most people would already HATE capitalism and then revolutionaries would only need to lead them to destroy it. At least this should be the case if we are in late capitalism, and its inherent contradictions have drawn out tremendous class exploitation to its limits.
Now, I know what the counter to this is. The counter is that quote where Marx backtracks from a critic and says historical materialism is only supposed to explain things within a narrow context, and isn't a full account of history.
This is pretty obviously a cop out from the same man who said "It is not consciousness that determines existence, but social existence that determines consciousness." and predicted the end of an entire economic system purely due to its internal contradictions causing the exploited workers to rise up against it.
Besides, what exactly is supposed to be left out? If it's not an overlying explanation of everything, then there must be some expressions of consciousness which are exempt from the material forces. Marx clearly doesn't believe this, so he's backtracking on everything he said before.
Clearly Marx was wrong, and socialism needs to find expression outside of Marx. The pretty obvious thing that wasn't predicted was the scope of the modern welfare state which gives the illusion that capitalism is exploiting surplus by providing some level of subsidization to prevent people becoming conscious.
Unfortunately, the same left that wants to destroy capitalism is countered by its desire to make things comfy for workers. This prevents the very consciousness awakened by exploitation that is supposed to destroy the system. Instead capitalism sustains itself by pacifying and then going through periods of austerity, and then pacifying again before the majority of workers become conscious.
This is why the majority of people thought Occupy was a joke, and without any real working class consciousness, it became a joke as middle class idpol took over. Meanwhile, capitalism got bailed out and the people were largely split between two bourgeois options of "free market for real this time", or "capitalism with a human face", and even George Bush who spoke the language of the first, practiced the second by starting the second. The system then continued and the playacting Republicans get their votes, and the workers get their food stamps, and the workers at the very bottom who are black get demonized to prevent class consciousness in the rest.
Face it. Class consciousness isn't coming until things get bad for the majority of workers, and I mean really bad. Until then, the minorities and the third world are the fall guys, and unlike what Jason Unruhe thinks, have no power to correct the situation.
illusion that capitalism ISN'T exploiting surplus
Started the bailouts.
That's a common misconception.
How is that wrong? Most of the right are liberal conservatives and most of the big parties are that. They love muh free market.
Then you've got libertarians who love it even more.
Only then do you have the small fringe who might have misgivings among the far-right nationalists and reactionaries. Of course, they just redefine capitalism so that they're only attacking liberal capitalism as opposed to their state monopoly capitalism/turd position stuff. Even Asserites only go so far.
The only right wingers who want to actually end private property are some section of NazBols, and that's mostly a meme.
It does, the superstructure (Ideology) reinforces the base pacifying the conflict.
yep, not that he was wrong really but that he expected bourgs to follow their own individual interests instead of cooperate, he's like Mises in that regard.
I agree, but if the left abandons the workers in this "daily struggle" it would delegitimize itself politically and Fascists would fill that void, it's complicated really. Mensheviks were probably right
Actually nevermind, i missread that, im tired
Aren't all the analyses in Das Kapital based on the idea of a free market too? The bourgeoisie will do X because the free market maximizes their profits?
You have to consider higher level strategies.
Complicated, but at least we know what the problem is. We need to find a way around it, otherwise capitalism just keeps stabilizing itself.
Now supposedly the rate of profit falling will finish it off, so do we just need to bunker down with socdem policies until that happens?
I'm just responding to myself to drive home the point that you ( ) are full of shit and it didn't work at all. the only thing accomplished by antifa hooliganism or posturing is encouraging reactionaries.
Encouraging them to what?
Encouraging them to stop hiding their power level? That sounds like a good thing. Can't get the party started until all the guests arrive.
You realize there's more than one step in this process, right?
Being a worker and not being a socialist just shows how stupid you really are.
So not only are you wrong, you're an idiot as well.
speak for yourself. plenty of morons on this board think that full gay space communism and post-scarcity freedom are completely inevitable and that any victory for fascism or loss for worker's rights is just "muh accelerationism." they unironically believe that encouraging fascism to rise to power and emboldening fascists are positive outcomes.
but where is the proofs that it actually is happening?
it's more about how neoliberal economics destroys itself and reformism doesn't do anything besides make people more comfortable and make capitalism more stable. you seem new here, maybe you should lurk more
They can love it because all the exploitation that is needed to bring material wealth is being exported to the sweatshops in asia and africa.
The asians and africans working 12-16 hours a day in sweatshops are what makes it possible to maintain the illusion that the capitalism is actually good for the people in the west, since they do not have the firsthand experience of outright exploitation, or their exploitation is limited through labour protection laws (8 hour shifts, paid sick leave, insurance, etc.)
Look at how many things are made in china. Or other parts of asia. Do you think average labourer in the west is informed about the working conditions of the chinese or asians?
Is he even in the position to care? They are mostly glad that they are not in the position of those who have it worse.
yeah, but at the same time, laborers in the US benefit from third world labor in the form of cheap goods
cheaper goods just mean lower cost of labor power
capitalists still have to pay you just enough regardless. If I'm paying you enough for three loaves of bread a day (hyperbole, as the cost of labor power in the US is higher than that because of the social democratic era and above average labor power), and the cost of bread goes down, you don't get an increase in purchasing power in the long run, I [aka the capitalist] just get reduced cost of labor power
I'm not telling you what accelerationism IS. I'm telling you what certain idiots on this board SAY it is
You are right.
But the reason why some people supposedly love capitalism, despite it being against their own interest, is that they have been given misleading information.
World is not just made of matter&energy, but also information plays its crucial role.
Your ideology is shit and the time when it was part of the zeitgeist is over, we are now heading fast into the 21st century where nationalism will win over globalism, and your pathetic socialist dreams are never going to come true at the very least in your lifetime because it is just a product sold to you by the same globalists you despise as porkies. Come one, haven't you realized yet that all your lefty friends are petitbourgeois from the middle class like you ? Didn't it get to you that your subversive ideology meant to topple the worldwide establishment is taught to you in public schools all over the world ? What do you think these state serveants teachers are doing ? I'm putting my money on giving kids with potential an escape to project to and not do anything useful to actually change the world. Since you're materialist and all, I think you better ramp up your hedonist habits and live with it until you die.
Also, the cost of labor goes down (or wages go down, or unemployment goes up) when third worlders move to the first world and challenge the first world unskilled labor.
Globalism =/= the international ideal