Why people think that Catalonia was "true socialism"

Matthew Thompson
Matthew Thompson

Why so many Americans on this forum have the impression that the CNT abolished the state in Catalonia and that anarchists ran the entire thing? Do you even know who the people in this pic are?

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War,_1937
mega.nz/#F!DpAz2IgQ!nW7bPNnpJFk5CAV3ypiaHw
youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Jose Williams
Jose Williams

==you have been visited by le backstabbing traitors of antifascist unity
counterrevolution and military failure will come to you, but only if you post "i renounce everything except victory!" in this thread==

Noah Lopez
Noah Lopez

I'm talking about shit like this:
Where do people get this impression?

Antifascist unity was the policy of the III International. If anything, the anarchists broke it when they refused to support the 1934 revolution, and again when they refused to support the People's Army in 1937.

Ryder Roberts
Ryder Roberts

The popular army, which has nothing popular about it except that the people form it, and this has always been the same in any case, does not belong to the people but to the Government and it is the Government that commands, it is the Government that gives orders. The people are allowed only to obey, as they are required to do always.

Mason Williams
Mason Williams

Hello, I'm the CNT. I refuse to overthrow the Republican Government in 1934 when it is in the hands of the protofascists of the CEDA, leaving the workers' army of Asturias and the left wing insurrection in Catalonia alone and ready to be massacred by the Spanish Army. Instead, I will demand a revolution three years later, when the government is in the hands of a socialist and communist coalition, and while we are in the middle of a war against fucking fascists and shit. That will teach those stalinists ;)

It sure looks like a sound policy, user.

And still nobody was able to recognise the President of Catalonia and the Secretary General of the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia, despite the fact that Catalonia is supposed to be the main meme of this board. Great job, people.

t. a catalan

Dominic Price
Dominic Price

How are they demanding a revolution if they let the state still exist? It seems like you just don't like anarchists user.

Aiden Cooper
Aiden Cooper

El Comite de Milicias Antifascistas was a formality, the anarchists liberated Catalonia and the goverment knew this, the anarchists had the de facto power for a while. Is interesting to read about those first weeks, people burning money, and collaborating peacefully with each other.

Lucas Adams
Lucas Adams

Because I've read dozens of different definitions of fascism, some that say it hinges on total ignorance of women, some that say it's inseparably tied to a singular moment of history. I've read many people say that fascism can never exist again outside of the historical conditions that existed in the mid 20th century.

To give a concrete example, I've never seen a consensus on whether Japan in the 1930s was fascist or not, and if not, why not.

Isaac Martinez
Isaac Martinez

The CNT refused to obey orders, refused to integrate their infective militias into the People's Army, resisted to economic planing until the Generalitat forced them, and there are lots of instances of fighting between anarchists and other units because of minor shit. That's sabotage.

What is la Guàrdia d'Assalt
And your shit about "collaborating peacefully with each other" its hilarious, dude. The first thing that the FAI did when they got weapons was to murder the fuck of all rightwingers and factory owners in Barcelona and loot their houses. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but let's be real. And the Comitè de Milícies Anti-feixistes was not a formality, it became the State in Catalonia until 1937.

Josiah Anderson
Josiah Anderson

If the militias were ineffective then what's the point of militarising them? Why wouldn't the """"""""""""People's"""""""""" Army just draft their members individually and suppress the militias if necessary?

Disobeying orders of course is something that happens when people disagree with each other. You're going around in circles forever saying "they're wrong because they disagree and they disagree because they're wrong".

Ian Johnson
Ian Johnson

Militias were ineffective because they were unable of coordinate, had shit discipline and training and their equipment was looted. Turning them into a trained and organized army equipped with soviet weapons solved those problems, even if it had limitations on each own.

The proper way to fight that war would have been using protracted people's war, but the spanish communists didn't have time machines, so they made what they could with what they had.

Disobeying orders of course is something that happens when people disagree with each other.
That's retarded. You need discipline in order to win a war.

Jaxon Foster
Jaxon Foster

communist party arrests 30.000 people during the war, mostly soldiers who came from the frontline to rest in the city
it's the anarkiddos fault >:-(

Thomas Wood
Thomas Wood

Marching and fighting aren't the same user. You could easily put on the appearance of a disciplined army for your own political gains, without it actually being very experienced in figthing. The PCE did this by taking the time to train their militias to salute and look nice while marching down the street.

Military discipline takes away individual responsibility, and that's the opposite of what the anarchists wanted to achieve. If an anarchist militiaman acts like an obedient soldier who doesn't understand for himself what he's doing then the anarchists have already lost.

And the biggest advocates at the time for a protracted guerilla war were the dissident anarchists who opposed collaboration and militarisation. Camillo Berneri was one of them, guess what happened to him

Christian Carter
Christian Carter

Whatever, man. Given how communists were able to control at some point half of the globe while anarchists have never ever won any war, I would expect some degree of auto-criticism but I see that it won't happen anytime soon.

Even so, nobody has told me yet why supposedly Catalonia was a stateless society, which was my initial question.

Things that never happened, the movie.

Jonathan Taylor
Jonathan Taylor

The first thing that the FAI did when they got weapons was to murder the fuck of all rightwingers and factory owners in Barcelona and loot their houses.
I know but I'm completely ok with that ("democracy is to be exercised among the people, while dictatorship is to be exercised over the enemies").

Anyway, yes the CNT-FAI did not abolish the state, and there was infighting because of this, “el anarcosindicalista no puede figurar entre aquellos que tienen la misión de conducir el carro del Estado, puesto que está convencido de que este carro, este famoso carro, debe ser absolutamente destruido” - Sebastian Faure. And it's true that the expropiated land belonged to the Ministry of Agriculture, but the anarchists still had some important seats, and the state was clearly socialist, Largo Caballero wasn't a moderate.

Charles Wright
Charles Wright

I'm more than ready to admit that communists in the 20th century had better propaganda than anarchists and where better at spreading their ideas. Nobody really tries to say that it was a stateless society in the sense of there not being a Catalan state there, but that the experience serves as an example of the kind of organisation that allows people to live without relying on the state.

Gabriel Murphy
Gabriel Murphy

I know but I'm completely ok with that ("democracy is to be exercised among the people, while dictatorship is to be exercised over the enemies").
I agree.
Anyway, yes the CNT-FAI did not abolish the state, and there was infighting because of this
In fact, there even were several anarchists ministers (like Capmany) so I don't understand were the "Catalonia is true socialism not like the USSR" meme comes from. And even if the Generalitat had been dissolved, the Spanish Government was based on Madrid, not Barcelona.

I suppose that the reason of this meme is that the USSR, China and Albania have been heavily and consistently demonized by the American press and academia for a century, while the Spanish anarchists are sometimes seen in a good light (mainly because they lost, of course), and given how most of leftypol is formed by young american socialdemocrats who pose as "radical communists" without accepting proletarian dictatorship, the kekalonia meme naturally follows.

It's not just better propaganda, the communists have proved that their doctrine is able to organize an effective fighting force able to overthrow the government and defend the revolution from foreign imperialism, while the anarchism have not and always point at others (Stalin, America… whatever) when they end up being crushed. There is a reason why the Russian reds won and the Ukrainian blacks didn't, and the same applies to Korea and countless other places. Anarchists refuse on principle to seize power exercise the dictatorship of the proletariat, but when they found themselves on a revolutionary situation they either do it anyway (like in Catalonia) or get crushed.

Camden Lopez
Camden Lopez

There is a reason why the Russian reds won and the Ukrainian blacks didn't
Because the Makhnovist movement was a relatively small insurgency in the countryside and anarcho-syndicalism was practically nonexistent in Russia?
Anarchists refuse on principle to seize power exercise the dictatorship of the proletariat, but when they found themselves on a revolutionary situation they either do it anyway (like in Catalonia) or get crushed.
If the anarchists had seized power in Catalonia then there wouldn't have been a republican state for the CNT to collaborate with in the first place.

Jeremiah Phillips
Jeremiah Phillips

Rojava is our main meme.

Sebastian King
Sebastian King

Because the Makhnovist movement was a relatively small insurgency in the countryside and anarcho-syndicalism was practically nonexistent in Russia?
Russia is basically when modern anarchism was born, while marxism was not relevant there until the late XIX century, so there you have another brilliant anarchist succes.

If the anarchists had seized power in Catalonia then there wouldn't have been a republican state for the CNT to collaborate with in the first place.
The anarchists didn't seize power, the proletariat did, though the Comitè de Milícies Antifeixistes. That's why it's called dictatorship of the proletariat, user. There was a situation of dual power between the republican institutions and the antifascist militias.

Ryder Rivera
Ryder Rivera

Oh, Rojava. Another totally-not-a-state with an army, private property, a government and a single functioning political party. And funded by the USA, no less!

Truly anarchism is the way forward.

Brayden Ortiz
Brayden Ortiz

Russia is basically when modern anarchism was born
No, it isn't. Bakunin and Kropotkin were Russian, but anarchism never became a mass movement in Russia.
The anarchists didn't seize power, the proletariat did, though the Comitè de Milícies Antifeixistes.
Wasn't the proletariat already supposed to be in power through the Popular Front?

Owen Baker
Owen Baker

It was close to statlelessness. Way closer than any tank fest ever got 'whithering away'

Nolan Gomez
Nolan Gomez

Remind me of all the stateless withered tanky paradises again….

Rojava, may or may not be a state, is the most successful attempt at a democratic, free society in the middle east.

Considering its ideologically very similar to anarchism, we'll take that as a win.

Elijah Rogers
Elijah Rogers

You could just google it or have read any non tankie book on the history of the civil war. CNT and POUM members were arrested in mass. The telephone office issue was just the beginning of that.

It's funny how someone can be so condescending while being ignorant. Being Catalan doesn't give any superior authority, especially when you are deeply biased towards a tankie approach of the war that says that all of the problems were caused by anarkiddos. FAI had a great impact during the defense of Madrid, ignoring that just on every post of this thread just proves my point.

sources:
homage to catalonia annex
we the anarchists!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War,_1937

Jackson Johnson
Jackson Johnson

This guy is right to a certain degree, I'm not anarchist by any means, but if it wasn't for them Catalonia would have initially fallen to the fascists for example.

Kayden Young
Kayden Young

I still do not see where that wiki article says that 30,000 people were arrested. Orwell's book certanly doesn't, I've read it and it just claims that the party cadres of the POUM were arrested. And even so, they tried an insurrection against the government in the middle of the war against fascism. That's treason.

No, it isn't. Bakunin and Kropotkin were Russian, but anarchism never became a mass movement in Russia.
So they were unable to create a mass movement in Russia (or any other place except a couple of strongholds in Spain, Ukraine and Korea), while marxism did. Maybe there is a reason, don't you think?
Wasn't the proletariat already supposed to be in power through the Popular Front?
No, not even the Communist Party was part of the Popular Front. It was a coalition of socialdemocrats, the communists and anarchists only supported it because they wantes their political prisoners free. And no marxist-leninist ever said that the proletariat can conquer power through bourgeoise elections.

Dude, it failed as hard as modern China. What you say is just wishful thinking.

Rojava, may or may not be a state, is the most successful attempt at a democratic, free society in the middle east. Considering its ideologically very similar to anarchism, we'll take that as a win.
So the objective of anarchism is not the abolition of private property and state power? Good to know.

Asher Reed
Asher Reed

So they were unable to create a mass movement in Russia (or any other place except a couple of strongholds in Spain, Ukraine and Korea), while marxism did. Maybe there is a reason, don't you think?
They were better at spreading their ideas, it's already been said.

Connor Cooper
Connor Cooper

I can accept that. But thee Guardia d'Assalt also had a pivotal role in crushing the fascist uprising in Catalonia, but I have never seen an anarchist say so, because it kills their narrative.

And even if the FAI had a role in the defense of Madrid (mainly in the Battle of Guadalajara), the main organizer of the defense was the PCE. I've never seen an anarchist recognise this either.

Lincoln Myers
Lincoln Myers

The point is not to recognise that point, but to see what is the reason behind it.

Evan Butler
Evan Butler

it's the "anarkiddies are being retarded again" episode

Chase Perry
Chase Perry

What is the reason?

Nathan Thomas
Nathan Thomas

Anarchism is an idealist ideology which denies the need of the dictatorship of the proletariat, and its philosophical foundation is classical liberalism, so it is unable to fight against it.

That's why you can find "anarcocapitalists" (even if they are retarded) but not marxism-leninism-freemarketism or some cancer like that.

Ethan Parker
Ethan Parker

they had an insurrection beacuse stalinst nkvd agents kept killing them

Adrian Price
Adrian Price

jaun negrin was in the communist party not in the cnt

Jace Nguyen
Jace Nguyen

How does it feel to know Mondragon Corp has done more for workers than any socialist regime ever?

Cameron Hernandez
Cameron Hernandez

they seem pretty based

Joshua Hill
Joshua Hill

Mondragon is a successful experiment in cooperative industry, but don't fool yourself into thinking that it doesn't have serious issues that stem from competing with capitalist industry.

Josiah King
Josiah King

Said problems exist because they exist within a capitalists economy, which the October Revolution failed to destroy

Don't fool yourselves, left-wingers, You are the ones that failed, not the anarchists

James Price
James Price

are you shocked that people with no exposure other to these things other than here and rarely other sources have misguided views of history?

dont take leftypol seriously, really, id say a good 95% of people on here only have a passing knowledge of anarchism, it history o anything else, not to mention the attempts at direct disinformation (or possibly just acute ignorance) by our 'fellow leftists'

Samuel Lee
Samuel Lee

i am an anarchist. Mondargan is not anarchist, dont be stupid.

Tyler Brooks
Tyler Brooks

And its not anarchistic because it exist within a capitalist economy

Jaxon Ortiz
Jaxon Ortiz

So they were unable to create a mass movement in Russia (or any other place except a couple of strongholds in Spain, Ukraine and Korea), while marxism did. Maybe there is a reason, don't you think?
Because Marx coopted the First International (an organization founded primarily by socialist of anarchist tendencies) and proceeded to expel most of the anarchists. This cut them off from a lot of the networking that had historically given their movement traction, and this was a trend that was continued in the subsequent Internationals. Thus the instances where anarchism did take root had to be basically home-grown rather than engaged in a larger international support base (though obviously loose associations did exist between some of the groups). It's a bit disingenuous for Marxists to complain about the often regionalist tendencies of historical anarchist uprisings when it was said Marxists that pushed the movement into such circumstances.

Also Russia DID have a large anarchist movement: it's just that many of them joined/supported the Red Army because many thought that working as a more coherent coalition would ensure greater success for the worker's revolution. This would proceed to bite them in the ass when the Bolsheviks took power when those who failed to adopt the subsequent party line got the boot or got dead.

Hunter Young
Hunter Young

..no, its not anarchist because its not trying to be anarchist, its just a large worker cooperative and because of it size it has to to compete with large capitalist industry which has led to some parts of Mondragon act hierarchically and forcibly taking workers participation away form their industry in order to stay a part of the Mondragon Copreration.

At its best it can be see as an alternative model to capitalist forms of production, but it its worst it acts exactly like capitalist companies do just to survive.

Jackson James
Jackson James

its not anarchist because its not trying to be anarchist

workers co-ops, not only Mondragon cannot achieve anything more because they will become uncompetitive under a capitalist system

Gabriel Nelson
Gabriel Nelson

IMO it was the closest any society has been ever..

Heres what Orwell said about walking into Barcelona

"I had come to Spain with some notion of writing newspaper
articles, but I had joined the militia almost immediately, because at that time
and in that atmosphere it seemed the only conceivable thing to do. The
Anarchists were still in virtual control of Catalonia and the revolution was
still in full swing. To anyone who had been there since the beginning it
probably seemed even in December or January that the revolutionary period was
ending; but when one came straight from England the aspect of Barcelona was
something startling and overwhelming. It was the first time that I had ever been
in a town where the working class was in the saddle. Practically every building
of any size had been seized by the workers and was draped with red flags or with
the red and black flag of the Anarchists; every wall was scrawled with the
hammer and sickle and with the initials of the revolutionary parties; almost
every church had been gutted and its images burnt. Churches here and there were
being systematically demolished by gangs of workmen. Every shop and cafe had an
inscription saying that it had been collectivized; even the bootblacks had been
collectivized and their boxes painted red and black. Waiters and shop-walkers
looked you in the face and treated you as an equal. Servile and even ceremonial
forms of speech had temporarily disappeared. Nobody said 'Senior' or 'Don' or
even 'Usted'; everyone called everyone else 'Comrade' and 'Thou', and said
'Salud!' instead of 'Buenos dias'. Tipping was forbidden by law; almost my first
experience was receiving a lecture from a hotel manager for trying to tip a
lift-boy. There were no private motor-cars, they had all been commandeered, and
all the trams and taxis and much of the other transport were painted red and
black. The revolutionary posters were everywhere, flaming from the walls in
clean reds and blues that made the few remaining advertisements look like daubs
of mud. Down the Ramblas, the wide central artery of the town where crowds of
people streamed constantly to and fro, the loudspeakers were bellowing
revolutionary songs all day and far into the night. And it was the aspect of the
crowds that was the queerest thing of all. In outward appearance it was a town
in which the wealthy classes had practically ceased to exist. Except for a small
number of women and foreigners there were no 'well-dressed' people at all.
Practically everyone wore rough working-class clothes, or blue overalls, or some
variant of the militia uniform. All this was queer and moving. There was much in
it that I did not understand, in some ways I did not even like it, but I
recognized it immediately as a state of affairs worth fighting for. Also I
believed that things were as they appeared, that this was really a workers'
State and that the entire bourgeoisie had either fled, been killed, or
voluntarily come over to the workers' side; I did not realize that great numbers
of well-to-do bourgeois were simply lying low and disguising themselves as
proletarians for the time being." ~Homage to Catalonia

Colton Gutierrez
Colton Gutierrez

A lot of that stuff (saying "salud!" to salute, church burning, criticizing people who dressed conservantly, propaganda everywhere) was being done by leftists even years before the war. There was really a lot of momentum for a socialist revolution at the time.

Blake Peterson
Blake Peterson

they had an insurrection beacuse stalinst nkvd agents kept killing them
That's bullshit, their reasons are clearly stated in their newspapers and propaganda. Also, not all the anarchists rebelled, so you're wrong.
Juan Negrín was in neither, he was a socialist of the PSOE. You people talk without even knowing what are you talking about.
1086996>>1087004
Mondragón exploits labour as any other capitalist business. Most of their work it's done by subcontracted workers.
Said problems exist because they exist within a capitalists economy, which the October Revolution failed to destroy. Don't fool yourselves, left-wingers, You are the ones that failed, not the anarchists
Nice to see again that anarchists don't wanna really abolish capitalism.
This.
Another episode of "Anarchists dindu nuffin wrong, it's everyone fault but us"
Orwell was a bureaucrat of the British Empire glorified by the anticommunist "left" who sold countless communists to the secret service, and anybody who has read 1984 should know that he was a classist asshole: "proles are barely humans and without intelligence or revolutionary potential". Besides, even in his text he says that "that this was really a workers' State and that the entire bourgeoisie had either fled, been killed, or voluntarily come over to the workers' side" so he is demonstrating my point: it was a proletarian dictatorship, not a classless and stateless society. And if I gave you a similar text of the USSR or Maoist China you would dismiss it as propaganda.
This. It would be also nice if people here made a quick research about the 1934 spanish revolution, or how the CNT was for some time part of the III International, the "authoritarian organization of the ebil stalinists" and that for most of its early history wasn't even anarchist.

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