Okay, real talk

Okay, real talk.

When are we on the left going to own up to what a massive fucking catastrophe Venezuela has been? Are we really just going to look away or play the "it's all alarmist propaganda" card? Are we really gonna pull that shit again? Because that seems like a pretty fucking awful idea.

And while we're at it, are there any Venezuelans here that can give some perspectives on what's going on over there?

Other urls found in this thread:

newleftreview.org/II/99/julia-buxton-venezuela-after-chavez
slideshare.net/teleSURTV/pdvsa-spying-espionaje-a-pdvsa
edwardsnowden.com/es/2015/11/18/sigdev-is-it-time-for-a-target-reboot/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Venezuela

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BAH-BUT IT WAS GABBITALISM!!

Venezuela here don't worry it wasn't real socialism and the rats don't taste THAT bad

Hey Holla Forums, whatcha doin?

Chavez and Maduro are populist faggots who still didn't hand over the workplaces to the workers despite having a free hand to do so for ~15 years. Instead they were were welfaring to the max because the oil was cheap.
Also sage for Holla Forums thread because OP isn't even trying

I'm serious. This isn't a Holla Forums bait thread, I genuinely want to talk about his. I see right-wing assholes harping on this all the time, but I see very little response from the left, and that genuinely worries me. The last thing we need to be doing is to ignore a very real humanitarian crisis happening in the name of an ideology that claims sympathies with ours.

I have internet friends in venezuela and they think its shit.

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newleftreview.org/II/99/julia-buxton-venezuela-after-chavez

Did the workers own the means of production in Venezuela?

Or did the elites just socialize risk and privatize and consolidate wealth into their hands?

We don't ignore it, we denounce it because Chavez was a retard believing in voodoo

What should he have done? Not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious.

and yet people like Fidel when he does it

Diversify the economy rather than relying on oil only, do not tamper with the prices that much(the idea was nice, but it wouldn't work in that economic environment), try to get that mythical worker ownership of the means of production.

It hasn't, it went to shit because of oil prices.
Maduro is currently making them food independent by sending people to work the fields instead of importing doritos and coke. (the country has one of the highest rates of Obesity in the continent)

/thread

People only like Fidel for memeing the US

Venezuela has still achieved massive improvements for the people who were worst off and any right wing opposition will only benefit from ended economic sabotage (by their paymasters).
The problem with Venezuela is that they are still not calling to violent revolution and abolish bourgeoise parliamentarism, presidency and private property on any scale in all branches of economy.
It's not a failure per se but rather the retarded social democrats impotence falling behind the revolutionary momentum.

Sounds like they could've avoided that if they had a market to tell them that what they were doing was retarded.

Wait why are you saying we should apologize

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when is "the right" going to own up to what a massive fucking catastrophe germany, italy, spain, chile, argentina, guatemala, colombia, el salvador, honduras, brazil, and many more, all have been?

Venezuela is not Socialist and never attempted to be. It tried to implement Scandinavian Socialism.

Venezuela collapsed for many reasons, largely though mismanagement and the Global Financial Crisis which fucked their efforts at diversification.

Venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/11992

Here is a very indepth look at why Venezuela is fucked.

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This guy mentions a point that rarely seems to get expressed on leftypol which is that economic sabotage from the right and from US imperialism has had a very negative effect. It seems like if you say that you get accused of wearing a tin-foil hat but its been proven by wikileaks that economic sabotage is happening; somehow though even though most people here would concur that there was economic sabotage against Allende they wouldn't do it against Venezuela today 'cause reasons.

It's hardly the only reason why things went to shit some were uncontrollable such as falling oil prices. Others were such as the state giving its dollars from oil revenue gratis to the private sector (who squandered it) in order that they can cary on international trade instead of making them earn their own damn dollars and foreign exchange if they want it so badly.

Most actual socialists saw Chavez as a popular leader leading a bourgeois democratic national liberation movement against US imperialism and little more. The kind of leader that can be useful for the rad left to build an alliance with but not someone who was going to wile out and give every worker the means.

It is so obvious that price-fixing will cause shortages, but people do it anyways. First they ruin a system that naturally encourages people to produce and provide toilet paper, and then try to implement new rules to prevent people from hoarding toilet-paper instead of removing the first regulation.

Either allow people to sell toilet paper at the price they want (assuming there is not a monopoly), or nationalize the toilet-paper industry and try to figure out yourself how much to produce and at what price.

Depends on where "worst off" starts and ends.

pic related

Venezuela suffered from chronic "shit or get off the pot" syndrome. Price/currency controls and subversion of property rights in an otherwise capitalist economy is fucking retarded. If you maintain a capitalist economy then your wellbeing depends to a large extent on the presence of investment and enterprise to provide employment opportunities, supply goods, and attract capital. If you want to do away with that shit then you have to commit to it and actually do away with it. You can't retard and unnecessarily inhibit the operation of the market and capitalist enterprise while you still rely on it to keep your economy running. Just actually collectivize it and be done with it.

Everyone already knows what a disaster capitalism has been for Venezuela

We have for a while, for the most part. Some tankie edgelords will always try to blame Western propaganda, but most of the left gave up on Chavez before he died.

it was state capitalism

Stop this meme.

Oh, someone already posted it. Shidd

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stop

1) Its not a big a disaster as the liberal media makes it out to be.

2) It was a disaster before, and although it has taken a dip, is still better than it was before.

3) They are propping up half of Latin America by selling them cheap petro-caribe petrol cheaper than they make it for. This is a stupendous act of solidarity for the imperially dominated nations of Latin America.

4) The CIA have enacted coups there and have a large part to play in the instability.

5) The US has enacted trade sanctions and diplomatic espionage to cripple Venezuela.

6) Its not a particularly advanced form of Socialism but considering the odds its doing okay.

they do, but the government often sets prices on certain goods which kills business.

Oil was extremely profitable for years. This was a market crash that destroyed a nation. You fucking retard. You might as well have said that a company should have "listened to the market" when the thing it makes suddenly loses all value.

source: a friend of a friend of a conspiratard that completely misinterpreted what the sanctions actually were

CIA please go

"venezuela will collapse any minute now" - mainstream news from a year ago.

Venezuela has always been an unstable country and very dependent on oil, if Maduro doesn't fuck up they can overcome this crisis. Unless we have another """impeachment""" like in Brazil. In any case don't expect Venezuela to magically become successfull, with or without chavismo.

www.Venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/11992

Again, this article, goes in depth about why Venezuela is in the situation it is and why it isn't 100% the fault of the PSUV, (but the GFC largely fucked their plans) but post-GFC the PSUV went full fucking retard and were trapped by their own populism. Chavez dying happened at the worst time, because Maduro is unpopular and is paralyzed because unlike Chavez, the working class won't follow him through hell and back with hard reforms. The second Maduro cuts back on spending, he's fucked. The working class (and army) will be out for his blood.

If a company invests all its resources into one unsustainable revenue model and then collapses when that unsustainable revenue model dries up, then yes. They should have listened to the market.

Not exactly that, putting laughably low prices on many things while still retaining market economy is what fucked them over, you either go let le free hand do its work or go full planning.

Source:

The Wikileaks Files

That you conveniently never linked.

They put sanctions on 10 government officials. Are there any other sanctions that haven't been mentioned in Holla Forums?

Subversion efforts go way beyond just sanctioning goverment officials. Opposition to the government was backed by Washington too. Ignoring the far reaching scope of US intelligence and covert actions is insulting, fam.

fuck, dude, just give me a few links

slideshare.net/teleSURTV/pdvsa-spying-espionaje-a-pdvsa

I can't find a single phrase from those pages in wikileaks.


Next you're going to link something from RT.

Alright, fuck you then!
America never engages in covert subversion actions, right?

I never said that. Here's what I replied to:

Nice, thanks for the info.

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o

edwardsnowden.com/es/2015/11/18/sigdev-is-it-time-for-a-target-reboot/

they spy on every single country in planet earth, how do you know that they're actually crippling venezuela?

Venezuela's constitution doesn't have any provisions for impeachment, lol, the Opposition tried a Referendum to remove him but Maduro ditched them by saying it was fraudulent.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Venezuela

And the opposition just called for dialogue, without asking the government to comply with shit. They're currently being fucked in the ass by the government, and they just lay there and take it.

I don't get what they're trying to do. They don't want to be in power, so what do they want?

The opposition isn't a single party, it's a whole group of parties from far-left to far-right united by one thing, getting rid of the fucking incompetent PSUV.

Everyone in the "opposition" fucking despises eachother, one of the major reasons there won't be a "referendum" this year is because they spent most of the year infighting and shitting on Capriles instead of just standing behind Capriles and pushing for the referendum.

By the point they finally wanted to do the recall process, it was way too late for it to be done in 2016.

This is what makes the "Venezuela is now a dictatorship" shit so fucking pathetic, because it wasn't the PSUV that fucked over the process, it was the opposition all fucking shitting on eachother rather than providing a united front.

What I predict will happen is the PSUV itself will boot Maduro early next year.

Theory from some people is "they want to get the presidency later on when everything *really* goes to shit so nobody cares about how the new economic measures affect people anymore, everything could explode while Capriles is president if they don't wait"

You have no idea of how the process works or how it has been unfolding, there were a shitton of delays. In a process where the CNE's rules say "we have 30 days max to do this, but it should be done sooner" they did it in a lot more than that and added an additional step that wasn't specified anywhere.