Am I a bad leftist for not giving two shits about Palestine anymore?

No, I'm not trolling, nor am I shilling for the Zionist entity. But I'm sick of Palestine being a litmus test for leftists as if your entire integrity rests on how pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel you are.

Let me ask this shit concerning this conflict:

1. What makes the Palestinians special snowflakes compared to all the other colonized nations currently fighting repression, like the Kurds, Amazigh, Kashmiris, Balochis, Shias in Yemen, and so on, or even the Irish and indigenous peoples of the Americas? What makes Palestine liberation so crucial to general anti-imperialism?

2. A colonial apartheid state vs. a reactionary Arab/Islamic fascist would-be state - where the FUCK is the leftist/socialist angle?

3. Who wants to put all their faith in a faggy Palestinian national bourgeoisie?

4. Sure, Israel and Amerika did a lot to fuck with the Palestinians over the years, but Palestinian liberation all boils down to what the Palestinians themselves do. BDS, and by that I mean boycotting Israeli hummus and musicians, isn't going to do shit if the Palestinians don't have anything close to a vanguard party. Israel won't collapse due to cultural/academic boycotts and if it does the Palestinians have no leadership to storm the Knesset.

5. Claiming Palestinian birth rates will make Israel Palestine again is not only a stupid projection but a very reactionary way to liberation. You're literally saying Palestinian women are best being incubators.

And no, I fucking despise Israel. I'm not some StandWithUs shill. Just a disgruntled communist.

Other urls found in this thread:

gegen-kapital-und-nation.org/en/why-anti-national/
leftcom.org/en/about-us
youtube.com/watch?v=i_1wZSXEofE
youtube.com/watch?v=0-2GNV4XhAE
israel21c.org/2-8-billion-invested-in-israel-in-first-half-of-2016/
youtube.com/watch?v=sSMvg85a6j0

MICKS

But i agree its a clusterfuck.

PFLP

Yes.


So we hold bakesales for the PFLP until they become relevant again?

Nothing, who says they are? They're only more well known.

ftfy, Hamas has nowhere near the support Israeli lobbies pretend they have. And them getting into parliament would prob turn them into centre-right conservatives like Hezbollah. The idea that Palestinians would genocide the Jews is bullshit.

So your critique is that they're not firing enough missiles or what? BDS has mostly been about "awareness" and raising debate, which it has done brilliantly.

wut?


They're pretty much gone to my knowledge.

That's my point: Palestinian resistance has been very meek for a while. The anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa was much more active all the way into the 80s. Today, handfuls of lone-wolf Palestinians will go on a stabbing spree in Jerusalem that lasts perhaps two weeks at best and the press will call it a "third intifada".

Yeah, that's called exhaustion, the useless missiles are part of the same method. Many have simply lost hope. However, the current teenagers are shaping up to be quite militant to my knowledge - some analysers are even warning that the current administration will be the last to have a chance at peaceful settlement for decades.

And the fact is, with the US slowly collapsing (and with it capitalism), Israel is going to find themselves backed into a corner surrounded by a very angry Arab world. They ought to take said chance while it lasts.

No shit. But Palestinians have their own ethnic chauvinisms which come out every now and then.

You sound like you'd be interested in a LeftCom approach to the issue.

You might want to check out the following: gegen-kapital-und-nation.org/en/why-anti-national/

So what? How many times in history were SOCIALISTS (of all people) predicting the imminent collapse of capitalism which never came true? Second Internationale, anyone? Also, there's no indication a socialist one-democratic state of Palestine will magically emerge once Israel loses the US as an ally/supplier of military aid, especially when Palestinian leadership is so terrible.

Not giving shit about the Palistine - Israel conflict is the only smart choice imo

Geopolitics is an inherently capitalist issue, it should be avoided by leftists if possible just like nationalism.

palestine is a depressing one. its brightest leftist movements and minds have burnt out and now they're left with islamist fucks like hamas. even hamas' islamism seems to be burning out, as does their attacks against israel.

fact is, israel is such a behemoth, so entrenched in the military industrial complex, that any resistance to it will eventually be swatted away.

how can you not feel immensely sorry for the palestinian people? broken and encircled, their lands increasing growing smaller by the day, with no future prospects in sight?

"dude who cares lmao"


what

false the last election PA lost to hamas in gaza and there have been almost 10 years without an election in the westbank because fatah know it is going to lose

hezbollah is a terrorist gruop that is trying to impose sharia law, so it would kill everything that doesn't want them to follow them, like jews

false, see above

also in hamas charter it specifically mentions the genocide of jews as their goal


>So your critique is that they're not firing enough missiles or what? BDS has mostly been about "awareness" and raising debate, which it has done brilliantly.
false, bds have failed
all serious studies about it have prove that have mde only a tiny impact on israel economy and not only that, as chomsky pointed out, BDS is purely hipocritical because it intends in boycotting Israel but not the US, even the Israel is acting as an US pupppet

so they are trying to attack the syntome and the the disease. not only that but boycotting israel damages greatly the palestinians

so they are trying to attack the syndrome and not* the disease

I should check my grammar

hezbollah is not trying to install shariah you idiot

Oh, also this : leftcom.org/en/about-us

National Liberation is a real thing but I don't see much hope for the Palestinians at this point. Watching them fight Israeli occupation, whether by rockets or guns or stabbings, is like watching a mother mouse attempt to defend her babies from being swallowed up by a giant snake. It's fucking heartbreaking and no one is giving a feasible solution. "Blah blah blah Zionism is illegitimate" isn't a solution but a catchphrase.

I usually hate Chomsky with a passion but he is right here. If we look at who is calling for BDS it's almost always the Palestinian NB and Palestinian diaspora living in the West. It's not a genuine proletarian movement but a consumerist one.

Also, boycotting Motorolla and companies that profit off the occupation and apartheid system makes sense, but how the FUCK does boycotting an Israeli musician or artist help the Palestinians at all? Even boycotting Sabra hummus doesn't do all that much as far as damage to Israeli companies goes.

Hizballah used to be (somewhat) Marxist-Leninist but are now a bunch of Iran lapdogs.

But it did? Capitalism as Imperialism, as diagnosed by Kautsky, Luxemburg, and Lenin did collapse. What failed to happen was a successful international revolution (though it did happen) as the Social Democrats came to support the bourgeois when the moment arrived.

What followed was a period where a period were the US and USSR would share the role as executers of the old empires of Europe, implementing rapid real subsumption of the former colonies into the capitalist mode of production (whether West Bloc free market or East Bloc state-driven). Enter: the slow process of globalization.

There's a lot of ex Lebanese Communist Party members among the top brass yes

There are also a lot of old Maoists in the Chinese Communist Party.

But the Russian Revolution took off because there was a vanguard. Right now, the Palestinians don't have one, and it's absurd to think one will immediately appear as soon as BDS or whatever weakens Israel (which it won't).

Made me smile


In the February Revolution? Hardly, though I'm sure someone can dig up evidence against this claim.

To me the Russian Revolution seemed to prove the common leftcom thesis that a vanguard proper will spontaneously come into being during the revolution - what we should rather question them on: did not this vanguard arise out of a much larger, less immediately communist, mass movement? The same ones they so despise?

I've not put my foot down on Vanguardism in the current situation. On one hand too many of them are just solipsist organizations whose not made any serious attempt to develop theory and praxis for the 21st century (selling newspapers on the streets like it was the 1920s), but those who are not are often lacking in any theory! Take my own activist network for example, anarchists and MLs rub shoulders with one another and the only way they've managed to make it work is to not have any programme with actual concrete answers. Sure we do a lot of good, but it's utterly without any plan or purpose.

What makes Palestine a special case for Westerners is that they effectively enable it, not merely watch without acting, because criticizing Israel is verboten.

Hell, the complete purposelessness of what I'm part of has even made me wonder if I should look into getting a local ICC or ICT off the ground again (I might not agree with either 100%, but they're close enough). We apparently had (I think it's officially "has") Swedish sections not so long ago.

I take it you're a LeftComm?

Either way, it seems highly unlikely Palestine will go the same route. We can find leftist factions in Fatah but there's no reason to believe a far-left movement will emerge out of that as soon as US support for Israel dries up.

This was true 10 years ago but you will be hard put to find a college campus in the West which doesn't have a lot of students or faculty in solidarity with Palestine.

I also think comparing Palestine to Russia is not a very good analogy. The Russian Revolution took place at a time when Russia was engulfed in war. Sure, we could come up with a hypothetical scenario of Israel going to war with all its Arab neighbors without any American backing but that's even more absurd. The regimes which came out of the Arab Spring aren't exactly die-hard anti-Zionist, nor is it likely that the Palestinians will "win" in the Syrian conflict (Hamas is even supporting the FSA which puts them at odds with Hizballah and Iran). Not to mention Israel will most likely find an ally in a future Kurdish state if one is created.

Because college campuses are intentionally contrarian from the rest of the country.

It's still not a very good reason to prioritize the Palestinians in contrast to other colonized peoples. Critiquing Israel in the media is taboo yet there are plenty of other countries whose dirty dealings are barely discussed by the mainstream.

I never said it was, I'm only saying that from a personal perspective, people have a right to be pissed: their tax money frequently goes toward these dead kids.

...

It also goes to killing kids in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia…

Those are also reasons people are pissed?

It's just people bring up Palestine specifically because they're widely and actively vilified by the media while being exterminated in a way murdered children in other countries aren't.

It's really not any different from any other nation the US is in conflict with. Just look at how the Syrian refugees have been all marked as terrorists or "lazy brown people".

youtube.com/watch?v=i_1wZSXEofE

Same nationalism, same national mythologies.

Tankies like them because they fight against a western entity in the Middle East. It's the same line of reasoning for supporting North Korea.

Yes, and you're gulagposting like crazy.

There is nothing inherently "leftist" about supporting Palestine.

The goal ought to be cutting all ties with Israel, supporting a Palestinian state is an afterthought.

Okay.


I agree with this, and that's really all activists in the West can or should do at this point.

Ultraleftist detected.

No. Nationalism is toxic.

No. Nationalism is toxic.>>1071647

Social democracy is even worse FYI. There isn't a single SocDem state that isn't massively imperialist.

I got sort of shunned by my local Palestine solidity group for wanting to create a Rojava/Kurdistan solidarity subgroup become "it could turn away Turkish supporters". I still support the cause but I never went to any of their meetings after that.
I dunno if anyone has come across something similar.

To be fair, Israel will most likely support a future Kurdish state, since 1. that Kurdish state will almost certainly be secular and progressive and 2. Israel would have an oil trading partner.

If you ask Muslims how they feel about the Kurds, and how the Kurdish question compares to the Palestine question, you'll find a shitload of nuance. Many Muslims see the Kurds as contentious outsiders whose nationalist efforts are anti-Islamic and would fracture the Middle East even more.

The Palestinians should fight the way Prophet Muhammad did.

When faced with repression, the Prophet and his followers didn't resist with fighting but with migration. They left Arabia for Ethiopia and spent the time regrouping and re-ordering themselves.

This is exactly what the Palestinians should do. Rockets and stabbings don't do anything to stop Israel and it's pathetic watching them try. They should do whatever they can to let Israel ease its visa policy and migrate to the US, Canada, or UK where they should get educated and get involved in politics, academia, non-profits, the arts and media, and such in order to influence policy. Let the Zionist settler colonials cut up as much of Palestine as they want because it won't matter at all once American aid dries up.

...

Tbh I'd find it easier to get involved if their struggle hadn't been taken over by Islamists. I still support the June '67 borders and statehood for them, but I find it hard to actively be part of a movement dominated by Durkahs.

Wish my nigga Yassir and the PLO were still around, or that the PLFP were the main faction of Palestinian resistance. Alas the days of the Cold War and the Russians funding left-wing anti-colonialist movements are long over and we're just left with spooks.

Not a bad idea tbh but Israel will no doubt use a mass exodus as opportunity to seize more land and build settlements. Let's not forget that the settlers are mostly right-wing RELIGIOUS Zionists, many of them Americans or French who move there strictly for ideological reasons.


The lack of a USSR to support Palestine is one thing which kills it for me. The so-called "counter imperialist" bloc of Russia, China, and Latin American states isn't exactly anti-Zionist or has much interest in supporting the Palestinians. Yes, Latin American governments will expel Israeli diplomats every now and then but these things are symbolic gestures at best. Putin and Bibi are close friends and to my knowledge China has zero interest in Palestinian liberation.

There's a lot of people and media that at least pretends to say they're something other than rapists.

Palestinians almost universally get shat on by media who are more than willing to take israel's side that some piece of shit rocket that didn't explode is a mass terror attack worthy of leveling a city block in retaliation

FTFY

European media is a lot more unbiased. Not that it's necessarily pro-Palestinian, but it at least shows images of Palestinian children being killed and gives Palestinian voices a chance to be heard.

Either way, it's still no excuse for left-wingers in the US to prop up the Palestinians so high compared to other colonized peoples (including the indigenous peoples of its own lands).

Neocons love Israel, the Palestine shilling is thus just virtue signaling "look at how leftist I am".

As far as I'm concerned, they agreed upon a small settlement, then Palestine attacked, Israel BTFO'd them and took their territory, this kept happening until Israel was gigantic.

It's almost like the stronger guy gets what he wants in this world.

Yeah, no. The PFLP hasn't done anything serious in decades. Let it die.

There isn't anything about leftism that obligates you to give a shit about anyone or anything

I always thought about it this way: there are tyrants on one side and barbarians on the other, there's really no good side to route for

That's what I'm saying. How the FUCK does the left benefit from Israel becoming Palestine again, especially when it's very, very obvious the Palestinian NB would be the one in control?

The biggest supporters of Palestine on the modern left are these die-hard old school Maoists whose mentalities are still stuck in the Cold War. Even 30 years ago it would have made sense to unconditionally support the Palestinians over Israel, because it would have been guaranteed that a single state of Palestine would have become a Soviet satellite. Today, what would it be? Just another neoliberal ethnocentricist state.

That's a funny way of saying "social democrats."

Fair enough. I'm guessing it's just zealousness to fight da powah.

I don't really care about Israel Palestine, but I do get extremely pissed off by Zionists and their cronies all through the establishment and media.

I remember one "debate" I listened too on the radio between a Palestinian and a Zionist, over some shit going down in Palestine and the Zionist kept on just talking over the Palestinian telling them "No, your experiences are made up, this is why Palestinians are really pissed, because they are fanatic islamists and have been brainwashed by Hamas and want to wipe out the Jews" and the Palestinian was like "Lol what the fuck? It's because you can't walk down the street without some Israeli soldier thug insulting you or blackmailing you or being a general prick, it's an entire generation that have lived in world where they have to go through several Israeli security checkpoints just to see their friends, of course people are pissed, we live in a fucking slum and have literally no freedom, on one side the Hamas pricks on the other you Israeli pricks"

What narrative did the mainstream media go with? hint, not the Palestinian.

Yeah, I'm not a Zionist and I couldn't care less about Israel. But I couldn't care less about the Palestinians anymore. I'm under the impression leftists can't do shit for them anymore aside from the usual white liberal "raising awareness". Even boycotts won't do shit considering the real enemy here is US military aid.

Israel is cancer that should have never existed.

I agree but it exists right now and the Palestinian "resistance" is an absolute joke. It's like saying oh wow the USSR should have never broken up. No shit, but it did and now we're in an entirely new scenario.

Israel needs to go fam.

Jews can live there by all means. But no Zionist state

Who the fuck cares what pseudo-leftists say? You're as bad as them if you reduce your support of Palestine to the question of orthodoxy and heresy.

Yeah but we leftists living outside the Middle East can't do shit about it. End US aid to Israel and that's that. I've worked on BDS campaigns so I know what a joke 90% of them are.


I'm not the one doing it. They are. No one on the left is going to call me a supporter of apartheid if I don't care about Ireland or Kashmir, or if I hold contrary views on Kosovo or Ukraine, or if I disagree with them on whether China or Venezuela is socialist.

Do people actually think this will end the occupation?

i support them because it makes other people mad

I can feel not sorry because it happened many times before. OP is right. Palestine is nothing special.

This.

Yes. I said previously I used to be heavily involved in BDS. Most of what we did involved boycotting petty shit, like Israeli hummus or couscous brands or food companies known to be pro-Zionist. There were other times when we would call for boycotting Israeli performance artists.

The new goal of BDS isn't even about weakening Israel's economy (which it's impossible to do on a micro-scale) but weakening Israel's ideological influence. So the idea is to get people to live as Zionism-free as possible in hopes that it will create a culture sympathetic to the Palestinians (which it won't, most Americans are too absorbed in daily capitalist life to care).


I'm not saying it's good that Palestinians are dying. I'm saying I see no hope in their struggle any longer. At this point it would be better for Israel to formally annex all territories it stole in '67 and have the Palestinians conduct a 20-30 year civil rights struggle alongside Israeli leftists. That way the checkpoints and tanks will be gone and Israel will be militarily weakened since it won't feel the need to keep up its miltiarization.

youtube.com/watch?v=0-2GNV4XhAE
Tel HAI!

Fuck Israel. But I couldn't care less about the Palis.

No, you're just an asshole.

Lel.

But seriously, the left has no stake in this conflict anymore. Palestine-Israel is basically Russia vs. Ukraine at this point: no matter who wins or why, we don't have a bone to pick. No one denies the Palestinians are suffering under occupation but they're not unique given that plenty of colonized nations are suffering (many due to US intervention as well, so the whole "Americans have a moral obligation to the Palis" argument falls flat).

We have a duty to fight injustice everywhere

Depends on what we can do. Screaming "death to Israel!" at a rally isn't helping the Palestinians, it's just making you look like a douche.

dude I'm pretty sure that every leftist that cares about palestine cares about every other anti-imperialist struggle as well. Also, I'm not aware of any leftist (barring Third Worldists, probably) that advocates for Palestine to be liberated by Islamic theocratic fascists or the Palestinian national bourgeoisie.

What leftists want doesn't matter. The PFLP is practically dead and the left factions of Fatah are just as corrupt as the rest of the party. Sure, Hamas won't take over but Palestinian socialists/communists won't either.

So what do you suggest we do about the Palestinian struggle? I'm aware that leftist groups in Palestine aren't in a great position right now, but defeatism isn't going to get us anywhere. All we can really do as people who aren't in Palestine fighting is lend our solidarity to whatever groups hold similar ideologic lines to us and hope for the best. Just because shit doesn't look great for the PFLP or whatever faction you like doesn't mean you should remove your support entirely.

Yeah, that's what I mean: "lend solidarity" is the secular version of "I'll pray for you."

We know what happens when anticolonial movements don't take up an explicitly socialist politic. A new bourgeoisie comes in and allows for neocolonialism. Without socialists leading the Palestinian struggle they're not going to win any true victories against Israel.

We can't do anything. I'm not kidding. American imperialism will keep Israel and the occupation going until Israel is no longer an asset. Even then, there's no doubt Israel will just turn to Russia or some other power for allyship.

Oh I agree.


that's rather defeatist

you and I seem to have different definitions of what "solidarity" means. For me, solidarity isn't just saying, "hey, I support this," but rather it's bringing the struggle home to help out those on the frontlines. We can do things at home to push for the U.S. to stop or at least reduce its material support for Israel, which would make it easier for communist organizations in Palestine to gain more traction. I definitely see where you're coming from, but I'm an optimist and hate being so defeatist hahah

At this point, the Palestinians are running out of options, and nothing we on the left living in the west can really do. Armed struggle has been proven a giant failure. Hamas shoots rockets that don't do shit nor do the occasional stabbing sprees win them anything. Most BDS campaigns are so frivolous that they're not even making a potential drainage of the Israeli economy their primary course of action anymore.

The Palestinians can only win through Israel. They might as well get absorbed into Israeli society and conduct a 30-year or so civil rights struggle. If that's "defeatist" then fine.

Sure, ending US aid to Israel is a must but so far the plans of action have been outright terrible. How the FUCK do petty boycotts really hit that hard? Yes, Israel used to be afraid of BDS but now that calls to boycott have lost their sense of urgency Israel doesn't really care. Plus, Israeli companies aren't really the problem, American imperialism is.

Maoists posters are so good

Shame about the ideology

Nah I'm ok with that. But idk how much a Zionist state will listen to them. Needs international as well as domestic pressure. Like South Africa under apartheid. Choke them off.

Apartheid didn't end in SA because hipsters were boycotting South African coffee. It ended because 1. the anti-Apartheid struggle was constantly going on within SA and it was bloody and 2. the US cut off ASA's access to capital when it no longer needed them as an ally now that the Cold War was over.

And to reiterate my #4 point: it doesn't fucking matter how much solidarity leftists and other hipster shits in the West show. It all comes down to what the Palestinians themselves do, and right now they aren't doing all that much.

There are things "hipster shits in the West" can do other than virtue signalling. By all means the Palestinians can struggle. But they're totally outgunned and outmanned.

Both of which were based on the prevailing public opinion in the handful of nations that were still trading with South Africa. I don't know how you can admit that Apartheid South Africa was only viewed as a necessary evil to keep its minerals, agriculture, and population out of the hands of the USSR, and claim that public opinion had no effect on it being strangled financially by its allies once the Cold War was over

Such as?

To be fair, large-scale divestments were what killed South Africa, not boycotts. No one wanted anything to do with that regime by the early 90s.

israel21c.org/2-8-billion-invested-in-israel-in-first-half-of-2016/

Looks like BDS has a long, long way to go.

We oughta send 'em all back to Khazaria,
We oughta send 'em all back to Khazaria,
We oughta send 'em all back to Khazaria,
Where they belong

We oughta send 'em all back to Khazaria
We oughta send 'em all back to Khazaria,
Get the hell out of Al-Quds and Haifa,
And leave the Arab man alone

They steal our food
They steal our land
They're white as milk
And that's a fact
The more we work
The more they take
The more we preserve
The more they break

Palestine is in an awful mess
Occupation leads to civil unrest
I got one thing to suggest
They oughta leave
And get goin'
Gather up the Ashkenazis
And go back home

We oughta send 'em all back to Khazaria
We oughta send 'em all back to Khazaria
We oughta send 'em all back to Khazaria
Where they belong

We oughta send 'em all back to Khazaria
We oughta send 'em all back to Khazria
Get the hell out of Al-Quds and Haifa
And give back all the land you stole

directly aiding and sending resources to Palestine

...

You do realize APA was entirely dependent on foreign investments, right? To an extent, Israel is as well, but Israel's technology sector is growing to the point where it can easily become self-sustaining. Also, it's a fact the US is much more dependent on Israel as a client state in the Middle East than Israel is dependent on the US for aid.

The question of isolation is also a road to nowhere. There are plenty of countries which remain heavily isolated that haven't collapsed, North Korea and Myanmar being two. Israel isn't necessarily unstable either, i.e. Palestinians living within Israel's pre-67 borders are not the ones committing attacks.

I honestly don't see how Zionism is worse than any other form of nationalism.

Is it colonial? Absolutely, but the USA, Canada, Australia, and plenty of other states are also colonial entities - no one except third worldists and anarchists demand those states' destruction.

Is there apartheid? Definitely, but France and the UK also have apartheid systems in place. So does Canada with its First Nations population.

So do I think Israel should be held accountable for what it does? YES. But do I think Israel needs to be destroyed on some moral basis? No, and I would say the USA should be dismantled first, because everything Israel does the USA has done on a much, much larger scale.

Chomsky makes this point quite often: most anti-zionists are complete hypocrites who only target Israel because Israel is thought of as weak compared to other colonial entities. If BDS was about morality rather than a dick measuring contest it would go after American companies and universities also.

Pretty much. Zionism should be opposed and the occupation dismantled, but to treat Israel as a pariah because of it is basically saying that all the other countries are alright and Israel just needs to be brought to their standard, instead of there needing to be a revolution everywhere.

I don't even see the point of calling yourself "anti-zionist" especially when "anti-zionism" in this case specifically implies Palestinian bourgeois nationalism like OP suggested.

Palestinian socialism is a lost cause. Fatah is social democratic at best which means a one-state solution will automatically lead to Ashkenazi Israeli neocolonialism. Recall how most of South Africa's problems today are the result of the ANC backtracking on its proposal for a large-scale land reform. Who is to say the same won't happen in Palestine whereby the Palestinian leadership allows racist kibbutzim and large-scale Israeli businesses that use Palestinian labor like SodaStream to keep functioning simply to ensure the economy remains strong? An actual decolonization would include a land reform, a massive wealth redistribution, and full compensation for Palestinian refugees (such as giving the refugees their old homes back). There's simply no way to implement any of those without a distinctly socialist government, which the Palestinians aren't going to get.

And just look at how shitty Palestinian resistance is. It's morphed into "kill the Jew" rather than "liberate our homeland" and you can see this right now with the fires in Haifa (granted, we don't know for a fact Palestinians deliberately started the fires but it wouldn't surprise me if they did). They'd rather see Zionist settler-colonials dead than their ancestors' homeland preserved for a future return.

Also, how the FUCK does a "one democratic state of Palestine" deal with the fact that the majority of Zionists, whether Ashkenazi or Mizrahi, are outright fascists?

In South Africa, whites were never more than 17% of the population. In Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, whites were never more than 10%. In both cases, decolonization was very simple as white colonials were a clear-cut minority. So how does a progressive Palestinian government deal with Zionist colonials living as half its population? Mizrahi Jews don't even consider themselves "Arab" but "Jewish" first, meaning re-Arabizing them would be close to impossible.

Israeli politics is far more divisive than you stormfags trick yourself into believing, mainly because of your hivemind theology.

I'm not a stormweenie.

I'm saying a true decolonization can't happen if roughly 50% of the population are colonials. Decolonization doesn't just mean changing the country in name, it means changing the culture and removing ideological domination by colonials which Palestine CAN'T DO if Zionists make up half the population.

Israel is fucked up, but is still incredibly diverse, and the way the left handles it all is so fucking retarded. Saying you support moderate, Green, or liberal democratic socialist parties in Israel is enough to get you branded a zionist in many circles, because for them the only acceptable outcome is basically driving the Jews into the sea and handing control over the entire territory to theocrats and ethnonationalists who appear far worse than the status quo. The same people who bitch and whine about Israel never come out to support Rojava, or basically any other Middle Eastern minority that is subjugated, and the only real explanation for that is because they tend to care more about what The Jew is doing more than other countries. Why do dead arabs only count if someone can point a finger at Israel? It's regressive bullshit. Israel is a tiny shitty strip of land, and everyone is so preoccupied over hating on it that they ignore the far greater problem of Saudi Arabia or Turkey fucking everything up.

The problem with the idea of "decolonisation" in Israel is that something around two thirds of Israeli Jews are middle eastern: any kind of "decolonisation" would require an even greater effort in all the places most Israeli Jews are from (mostly Arab dictatorships such as Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, etc) to decolonise their *own* countries to be something other than theocracies or ethno-nationalist and return to Jews all the stuff *they* took when they made themselves judenfrei in the '30s and '40s. I don't have high hopes for this.

That's a ridiculous exaggeration

I accept inequality exists but "apartheid"? No fucking way. People of all ethnicities live, learn and work together here.

That's a highly conservative estimate. I've read anywhere from 60-80% of Israelis have at least one Mizrahi or Sephardi parent. Not to mention most marriages in Israel are mixed Ashkenazi-Mizrahi.

Please.

those should be banned though like all religious and reactionary practices. if you're not a secularist then get fucked.

Why?

*grandparent

Tumblr called, they want you back.

It's a question of women's rights. If a woman can go naked in public, why can't she cover up in public?

So? Why can't a ODS of Palestine just implement programs to help Israelis leave and migrate to the US or Europe, similar to the way the US allows Cubans to come over without obstacles, or how Australia took in all those Rhodesians after Zimbabwe's decolonization?

She can, but not with clothing associated with fucking religious customs

Why? Why is dogmatic secularism any better than dogmatic religion?

It's blatantly repressive and hinders equality between men and women

Religion is a private matter

Because religions are fucking reactionary garbage you dumb tumblr libshit.

What about Islamic Socialism? If Islam can be used to promote capitalism and feudalism, why can't its tenants be used to promote communism or anarchism?

I stopped caring about it years ago, so you're not alone.
It basically boils down to two groups of people fighting over the same parcel of land using ethnic/religious bullshit to justify their bloodshed.
Neither side is fighting for any solidly leftist principles beyond lip service, or is willing to make concessions the other finds amenable, so the sooner one side or the other gets wiped out, the sooner it stops being a massive distraction for the left.

There's also the fact that no one really gives a shit about Palis. Sure, you see the occasional Death To Israel rally in Tehran or Beirut, but what the hell are those countries really doing to further Palestinian resistance? Iran stopped funding Hamas as soon as Hamas began vocally supporting the FSA against Iran's buddy boy Assad. How many Lebanese or Algerians are sending supplies to help Gaza rebuild? Why are all the people going on the Gaza boats white?

Listen honey, Christianity got so mild in the West not because faggots like you were nice with it but because left-wing has been assraping them since French Revolution, be it through burning the churches or just shitting on their religious teaching about submissiveness women, evils of secularism or whatever else you come up with. The reformist concessions came not from the left, but from the Church and the same thing must happen to Islam If you want to see Muslims become "secular", you must suppress that shitty reactionary religion rather than petting their heads.

The Church was an unquestionably reactionary institution. Islam OTOH has proven itself to have potential to be a liberating force. The only people fighting imperialism right now are Muslims.

Did the Islamic Iranian Revolution not happen in your world? Does Wahhabism not exist? Is Erdogan non-existent?

The Palis are simply a cudgel the Islamic world uses to keep the Israelis on edge.
If they genuinely cared, they'd have either offered to take them in or helped rebuild what little they have left, or lift them up in some other way.
Basically it keeps the rest of the world focused on how "teh ebil jews are killin teh poor oppressed people of palestine" and not focused on how much of a religiously backward shithole most of the rest of the ME is.

Fucking this.

Sure, we can talk about how the Jordanians and Saudis have always been western lapdogs, but why the FUCK didn't Nasser, Assad, Saddam, or Gaddafi take the Palestinians in and provide them with aid? It seems more and more the Palestinians are nothing more than proxies Arab countries use to fight Israel.

Iran is much more progressive than most western states in many respects. For one, they've banned advertising since 1979.

"I don't like Jews so they should all leave their lands"

like are you even listening to yourself here

sauce pls. There's basically no info from Western sources about Iran that's not pure propaganda.

Who cares if Iran has banned advertising and has a Sweden-tier welfare system? It also has a UBI and good means of dealing with unemployment. That doesn't subtract from the fact that it's a theocratic state which protects private property and hangs gays.

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It doesn't matter if Palestine is "rightfully" the Jews' land or not. What matters is that they're there now, and compelling or forcing them to leave would cause a massive disruption.

As someone of Native American heritage, the comparisons between the genocide of my people and the Palestinians bugs me to no end. Stop comparing two things which aren't even close.

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DING DING DING

GO BACK TO OKLAHOMA!

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kek

wtf i love iran now

Yeah, you're never going to be able to remove 5.8 million Jews from Palestinian soil in this culture. If the Palestinians had a legitimate socialist party they could easily re-proletarianize the Jews, but they don't so they won't.

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Nothing.

Nowhere.

No one.

I agree. We can't fight their battles for them.

I really hope no one actually says this.

No

Wow, that's really something. I mean, they kill you for apostasy and murder the fags, but at least they've banned ads! So progressive!

It doesn't work. There's a reason why the Iranian government has been on the verge of collapse for a while.

Yes.

Actually they turn the fags into trannies these days.

No, really.

Why?

We should include other colonial apartheid states in BDS.

Example:

Palestinians cücked themselves by starting those fires.

I mean, what kind of indigenous people who values their land would burn it to death as a means of kicking out occupiers?

Blacks in South Africa didn't do such a thing. Maybe because Africans still hold some kind of connection to nature whereas Palestinians are almost entirely modern?

I think it would be better to say they're fighting imperialists, not imperialism itself. That's like saying fighting against a group of jews means you're fighting judaism.

RIP leftism

kek

Let me guess: you think caring about gays and atheists not being brutalized is "idpol"?

kys fucking larper, you are the cancer of this board.

Say a near perfect communist state existed, except in this state homosexuality was a capital crime…

I'm a homo and even I will admit that "they kill gays" is just an attempt to silence discussion.

If anything you should think of it like this: if the most violently spooked nation on Earth has done something good, what excuse do we have?

Iran has all that shit? Can I move there?

Why is palenstine a left wing concern anyway, jews being assholes is usually more of a concern for the right.

Fucking newfags

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Palestine was a left-wing concern due to the Cold War. The USSR took the side of the Palestinians against Israel (which after 67 was supported unconditionally by imperialist powers). Back then, it would have been almost certain that a one-democratic state of Palestine would have become a Soviet satellite. Today, there's no reason to care about the Palis aside from feels.

There's no reason to think the Palestinians are more vital to proletarian liberation than any other colonization. It's just that Americans directly fund their genocide so American leftists feel more of a responsibility to them than, say, Kashmir.

Feel power of free trade la

youtube.com/watch?v=sSMvg85a6j0

The left only likes Palestine because it feels it's the one final conflict it actually has a stake in. None of those other places you mentioned have any possibility of going communist with the exception of Novorossiya. Even the Kurds prefer ethno-nationalism to proletarian struggle. Palestinian liberationists were still heavily leftist until Israel began funding Hamas to offset them. Now communists in Palestine are a minority.

Which proves the Third Worldist point correct. White/western leftists are only interested in brown/black revolutions if they can railroad them. As soon as we black/brown people decide to do things our way you guys abandon us or make excuses. Just look at Chomsky's anti-BDS nonsense and tell me he doesn't resent the Palestinians for not doing revolution "his" way.

A "brown/black revolution" sounds like nationalist bourgeois crap

It can still have elements of proletarian struggle. See: China, DPRK, Vietnam, Guinea-Bissau, Ghana, Cuba, etc.

I suppose, although socialism should always take priority

Palestinians are a lost cause.

Maybe. But at least you are a good goy.

Its kind of irritating how you imply that anyone who is more or less pro Palestine thinks that Palestinian liberation is more important than other struggles, but fair enough. Being more neutral is way better than actually supporting Israel or thinking them to be the "lesser evil" so to speak.

All Leninoids pretending to care about people of Gaza strip by giving 'critical support' to Hamas are basically supporting paramilitary which holds 70% of Gaza Strip as hostages because of their Leninist ego trip about national liberation and don't give a fuck about proletariat in Palestine.
Neither Israel nor Palastine but proletarian internationalism

Fuck national liberation

How ????

Yes, killing gays is fucking serious issue, besides that Hamas recketeers local population, use them as meat-shield, force sharia law.

Only problem is that these policies don't apply on practices of all religions

Pretty sure most Palestinians in Gaza love Hamas though. Islamic parties HAVE to donate a lot of their money to charities and are required to participate in mutual aid-based programs.

Zionists ARE Nazis bro.

That is not the point. People take it as an excuse to say that anything they do is automatically evil, and therefore the opposite is good.

I'm pro-Palestine but not pro-Hamas. It's that simple.

This.
Why should communists have a problem with banning public displays of reactionary ideology? The only real reason to object as far as I am concerned, is the reactionary intent to the people implementing those policies. I think an actual proletarian dictatorship would be much more aggressive in the suppression of such things (and much more consistent too).

How is Islam reactionary when its entire theology centers around equality and social justice?

LOL

Explain. Have you read the Qur'an? Nothing in it promotes social hierarchy of any sort.

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Palestine is actually a large-scale financial dummy company run by OPEC to keep an open source of recruits for their proxy wars in the region.

Israel gets good cash for doing some human rights violations every now and then and the PA gets ruling rights and speed around in sports cars while the locals are used as 'pity video' material to drudge up donations and recruits to saudi-owned terror groups, This also serves as a cheap way to keep Israeli civilians brainwashed in a state of fear and perpetual war.

War is a very profitable enterprise. The arabs learned this very quickly.

Islam today focuses on conquest and genocide to further their imperialist goals, the same way the Catholic Church justified their crusades 'deus vult' back in the middle ages.

Can you source this claim?

It sounds utterly unbelievable.