There are avowed communists/marxists that voted for Clinton over Stein or Sanders or even Trump


Clinton had to be the most pro wall street/foreign interventionist candidate and now I think you'll have people falling for this shit again next cycle.

Is it really that easy to manipulate some people because "omg sexist" "omg racist" and they don't even think beyond that.

Cuz those wanabee commis are sjws

In the primary it was inexcusable, but in the general it was a fair strategic gamble.

Seriously I've read an amount of Marx and believe a lot of it but would never call myself a Marxist. To really be a Marxist takes hard work. Its an area of obscure theoretical study.

You don't really have to properly understand it to see its effects in every day life. But seeing the contradictions in capitalism doesn't automatically make you a Marxist. I think sure some people think that's all it means though

How do you even separate them from the movement(s).

If you had an out and out disclaimer of "no identity politics bullshit" you'd be branded "alt right" and "racist" and getting to the masses becomes much more difficult.

This very bullshit was inflicted on Trump's campaign and was so effective that even people who hate it being used on themselves, believe the lies against Trump because they want to hate him even more.

In what possible way, Clinton is even more removed from any goals of socialism/communism than Trump is. Trump at least wants production in the USA where the workers are.

Clinton is the darling of wall street

I voted for Clinton.

It wasn't because I liked her, I thought she would make a better enemy, seeing as our primary goal should be to create an opposition movement to the left of the Democrats.

I'm still a bit worried that the reaction to Trump will simply be "elect Democrats" instead of move beyond them and that the movement going forward will be a reaction against Trump's brand of conservatism rather than a movement against neoliberal capitalism, but we'll see. A bunch of socialist institutions I belong to have seen record new memberships, so maybe Zizek was right.

Man the only important parts of Marx work is is sociological work and his analysis of the capitalist model.
For political theory, both Bakunin and Kropotkin kick Marx out of the way.

Why not try to take over the party like Trump did to republicans.

Democrats suck up the vast bulk of the "left" vote despite not really being very good at being "left". They're in the way and it's stuffed to the gills with corporatism whores.

Bernie is also too much of a pussy to try and take over the party, in fact he's fucked off already. His main purpose seems to be to show it *is* possible.

I find that Marx analyses probably more thoroughly than the anarchists but he is just lacking in terms of meaningful strategy or suggested organisational structure for me

Just to add, not only corpratist whores but muh privilege checking idiots as well.

There's even this nightmarish brand of people around now who are a mutated blend of neoconservatism, neoliberalism and social justice warriors - absolutely horrendous. It's like you take different groups that don't like Trump and put them in a vat of goo.

The result is a type of person that lusts for power and power alone and will say anything to anybody to get it. "Workers? They're probably white racists".

They're in the way of any chance of a decent modern left.

The Democratic Party is designed to stop the sort of populist left takeover you're describing. That's what the superdelegates are all about and why so much of the primaries come down to ๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ€chance๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ€.

If you've got any ideas on ending that kind of stuff, I'm all ears.

A lot of them don't understand communism

Same reason you have avowed communists defending Putin, Assad and other dictators

Create a left unity party that directly challenges the Democrats, using the recent election results to claim that the Democrats are too weak to beat the current incarnation of the Republicans.

The modern greens could do that.

But the corporate media stands in the way and they're very adept at disinformation. They can say

- "It's not us! it's republicans! complain about them some more!"
- "are you a racist? huh huh?"
- "are you a sexist?"

and a million other things.

Not trying to discourage you or others reading this, just advising of a major obstacle.


we need revolution. not votes. don't get sucked into the game. it's there to absorb dissidents

And the same reason you have idiotic "leftists" repeating NATO interventionist mantra.

Anybody got any more ideas?

The parties need to be about consolidation and simplification of goals and ideals. The more groups and people you can get to agree to a goal or platform the more support you'd get.

What about a pacifism-first message? A number of groups and portions of the population in The USA and around the globe would like to see a reduction in military intervention.

The more generic and agreeable the easier it will be to get a mass of people onboard.

I believe the Greens could do this if they highlighted this as the main difference between them and The Democrats. Bernie Sanders tried to make it work by reinforcing again and again that Clinton voted for Iraq(Vietnam) and he was one of the few who voted against it. But he still comes off as a bit of a hypocrite because he voted for a lot of military spending just because it would benefit his constituents.

A lot of people have their identity in voting dems no matter what. You have to find a way to split that apart into your own party - otherwise people who go "oh yeah, i'm a leftie! :D" will be voting for democrats and their corporatist bullshit forever and ever.

They'll hit you with "you're splitting the party!" bullshit to try and stop you. It's listening to this shit that led to Hillary getting the nomination, it's a ship that needs to sink.

It seems a lot of communists lack basic common sense skills and empathy. Only one person was going to win the presidency and Jill Stein was hovering at >1% in pretty much every poll. "What is Aleppo" man was outperforming her.

So that means de facto, either Donald Trump or Hillary would win. At the end of the day, that's all it really comes down to. And now we have to face the consequences of that decision: I.e. The alt-right in control of the country, we'll see more tax cuts for the wealthy, an administration that denies climate change, and everything else that comes with rightist politics in the U.S. including but not limited to: decades of a conservative judiciary, stripping national services, cutting welfare, cracking down on unions.

Yeah Hillary Clinton was bad. She's a cold warrior and so on. But at least she believed in climate change. At least she wanted to raise the minimum wage. Etc. etc.

theres one

Because all American communists are revisionists, duh.

She also "believed" in starting a nuclear war over stupid bullshit.

Trump could do zero while in office and still be a better choice than Hillary who'd have us all drafted and dead because the only common theme in her life has been the pursuit of more power.

boy are you going to be surprised when you actually read Marx


For the same reason lolberts voted for Trump


woops, fucked that up

Trump has also been very coy about using nuclear weapons. At least she's discrete. And furthermore, look at who he's surrounding himself with. It's not Kissinger and Billy Kristolโ€ฆ but they're somewhat worse in some ways.

The Greens are granola fucking hippies. They're good on some shit, but they have a branding issue for one.

Second, they will never get onto enough ballots. They have no access. They spend more time getting signatures than getting out their message. We either reform how the Dem Party works so that it's akin to UK parties or we infiltrate over the next two decades.

They have a serious problem with scientific literacy




Who said that a unity party necessarily has to be strictly for electoral politics?

violence should be opposed wherever possible user. rather than getting caught in the cycle

Using that race baiting nigress as a reaction gif

devil you know over the devil you don't

luddities please leave


Well let me know when you find the exhaust port and I'll join you on the raid.

No Marxists with even the most vague understanding of 20th century history would waste their time voting for neo-liberals or their demsoc/socdem helpers.

they are not communists, they are cointelpro shills