A matter of faith or Ideology

Henry Martinez
Henry Martinez

So, 'learned' filth of Holla Forums
I've been following the past few days with great excitement but have come to a conclusion that might not be entirely foreign to your subject of studies.

The death of capitalism.

I think the time has come for both fascists and communists to gather together and have a chat on what's next.

Because what's coming, is it communism? Is it fascism?

I smell there's this perversion in the air right now, this mix of leftist and right wing thought that is neoliberalism/neoconservatism and that world order is going to be torn down to shreds by my brothers and sisters in the right…. and you filth on the left… but what I am wondering is truly… how can we replace it? WHAT will replace it?

How can we create a system that is finally … pure? And not a corruption of every value we hold dear and stuff.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=Bkm2Vfj42FY

Jonathan Stewart
Jonathan Stewart

take your meds

Isaac Perry
Isaac Perry

Alright, let it be your way then. Am sure the left will be begging to debate this matter when they are neck deep into the sea of our might when we've finally taken over 2/3rds of the world and we finally force you to debate it; and your beloved world's temperature rises above a degree

Ian Jenkins
Ian Jenkins

capitalism will die from a thousand cuts.
Ecological devestation, unemployment from automation and endless stagnation, financial markets will never be regulated and stopped from creating speculation bubbles, profitability will be so low that there won't be any growth or investment in the real economy.
Political tensions will explode everywhere.
Population growth will outpace food production.
It's not looking good.
Whatever you think of as fascism and whatever we think of as socialism is unlikely to come about.

Luis Bell
Luis Bell

take your meds

Christopher Foster
Christopher Foster

capitalism will die from a thousand cuts.
Well fuck, am seeing it happen in slow motion in such a way its obvious it'll happen

pop growth
Uhm, am more scared about pop crunch actually, since apparently our government stuff is made to depend on great swathes of young people feeding the elderly, and that's stagnating…. all across the spectrum, on all countries.

Whatever you think of as fascism and whatever we think of as socialism is unlikely to come about.
We are talking about a matter that's species-wide survival priority here. I couldn't give less of a shit about the environment to be fairly honest, but there's a bunch of other things that are going to result in a bloody revolution sooner or later, whether its fascist or communist or something inbetween and it could result in something that fucks our species even further than it is due to the pop crunch

Luke Moore
Luke Moore

Fascism is capitalism.

Dominic Cook
Dominic Cook

\1 in decay.

Henry Taylor
Henry Taylor

this mix of leftist and right wing thought that is neoliberalism/neoconservatism
There is nothing leftist about neoliberalism. It's capitalist through and through.

What's coming is climatic collapse followed by full automation and exterminism. What will remain is a pure bourgeois society which will live in FALC

Oliver Adams
Oliver Adams

Hard to argue against that

Without a world war its impossible to do that, and power is slowly but surely oozing away from the elites

Sooner or later most of the world will be composed of Revolutionary Fascist Juntas and Communes

Ethan Sullivan
Ethan Sullivan

when a reasonable "nazi" comes to leftypol and you realize he could and should be on your side

Logan Nelson
Logan Nelson

This is probably autistic, but hey OP, how do you feel about climate-change/potential extinction of humanity?

Nolan Clark
Nolan Clark

I have very mixed feelings about it.
Part of me wants to drill/strike the earth for its resources like no tomorrow.
The other part of me knows that this is suicidal, but then reverts to lemming mode, because I suppose someone will sooner or later someone will come up with an answer… but am very likely just running off a cliff and I know it.

So I suppose I don't 'care', but am worried at times, then I return to not caring. But then again I do feel a bit worried, its not my prime worry though.

Kevin Thomas
Kevin Thomas

Also, a bit of reasoning behind why I believe Fascism (and to some extent Communism) is going global real fast and without a lot of people noticing:
youtube.com/watch?v=Bkm2Vfj42FY

Nathan Roberts
Nathan Roberts

OP even if we have a successful debate here, fascists and communists irl will never debate with each other during a revolution on what to do. Face it, there can be nothing but violence between us. Our goals are too different. Fascists advocate the most hierarchical and authoritarian societies possible (except for maybe ancapism), and strengthen the nation-state to be all-encompassing. Communists, whether Stalinist or Ancom, eventually want to have a society that is free of classes and most (if not all) hierarchy, and abolish the nation-state. They are two mutually incompatible goals; we will never compromise.

Owen White
Owen White

Syriza and some anti-austerity far right party irl did an alliance in Greece

'Extremists' make strange bedfellows…

Ryder Sanders
Ryder Sanders

Yeah but in a doomsday scenario we'd get something similar to Metro 2099.

Nicholas Myers
Nicholas Myers

Part of me wants to drill/strike the earth for its resources like no tomorrow.
The other part of me knows that this is suicidal, but then reverts to lemming mode, because I suppose someone will sooner or later someone will come up with an answer
This is how you should think about capitalism in general. it drives itself inexorably, and under its own power, toward a precipice. Unchecked it will destroy itself, the world and all human civilization. The question is if we can dismantle it before that point, whether through conscious revolutionary struggle or achieving post-scarcity conditions which make class obsolete. In either case it's a matter of material conditions.

Syriza
They're a bourgeois party. Think Bernie. I don't think most people on Holla Forums identify with them very strongly at all, though some hold-outs seem to eat reformism up more and more every time the reformists betray the working class.
At least one person on here is still sucking Obama's dick

Isaiah Kelly
Isaiah Kelly

Everything under the sun is bourgeois if you peek at it hard enough, with all due respect.

And am swiftly approaching the moment where I just throw my arms up and just protest, because things simply aren't getting better no matter how much money, or thinking we throw at it.

This is why I want to include communists in the discussion, because they are a whole part of the problem. A symptom of an underlying real problem.

Chase Green
Chase Green

We are talking about a matter that's species-wide survival priority here
top porkies (business owners and government officials) will survive in bunkers and emerge once the nuclear dust has settled, so to speak

pop crunch
only in countries where wage labor is the primary form of employment AND there's actually a system of young people paying for the elderly to live
pop growth is still going strong in highly religious areas

Carter Richardson
Carter Richardson

hey kid why don't you join our side 👀

Carson Barnes
Carson Barnes

when you say fascism do mean mean populist anti-foreigner and nationalistic politics, or existing governments going full-authoritarian to maintain power in decaying capitalism

Jordan Moore
Jordan Moore

pop growth is still going strong in highly religious areas
Its stagnating in Egypt, Indonesia and so on
Only still up in places like Nigeria and Kenya, maaaaybe places of India

I'd sooner die than do that, in fact, joining would mean I'd probably get my head chopped off for not being ideologically and classist enough the nanosecond I did

Communism is one helluva drug, like Christianism, except not 2k years old

Jacob Hughes
Jacob Hughes

I mean mostly right wing populism with a slight edge that makes it look evil to normies, just a bit 'normal' to people on the actual edge and like a 'one of us' thing

Fascism is just a form of identitarian tribalism with popular stuff mixed in it these days, more than wiping out imaginary enemies… although some of those enemies are pretty real… read: bankers (to some the codeword is jews, but I know the real enemy's name)

Jace Wright
Jace Wright

I couldn't give less of a shit about the environment to be fairly honest

Don't worry. The environment also doesn't give a shit about you. In fact, this planet doesn't need us here. All the other forms of life could easily go on without us.

Bentley Martin
Bentley Martin

All the other forms of life could easily go on without us.
not dogs. and dogs are really the only things in the Universe that are truly good.

Blake Baker
Blake Baker

No. Syriza is pure garbage. They failed to make a stand and leave the EU, return to their former currency and start from scratch. It would have been tough? Yes it would have been tough, but it was the best option.
Instead they rather keep being fucked by the EU and the IMF and pay completely irrational amount of interests. All interests are completely amoral and should flat out be illegal, but the interests they pay surpass all logic.
There's no discussion. They are garbage and that Tsipras turd should be incarcerated.

And i'm not greek, because if i was i would be so mad by now that i would most likely pulled a Breivik

Noah Reed
Noah Reed

Does Zizek still support syriza?

Benjamin Thomas
Benjamin Thomas

Everything under the sun is bourgeois if you peek at it hard enough
We don't mean "bourgeois" as a subjective personality or cultural trait. What I said specifically means they are a party of and for the bourgeoisie, meaning the private owners of the means of production. Which is a very concrete category.
This is reflected by their political activities and key role in subordinating discontent to the state's existing channels.
If someone does use "bourgeois" to mean "liking things I don't like" they either have no idea what they're talking about, or are being deliberately undermining.

You should read up some on historical materialism. Marxism - the real kind - is a very scientific way of looking at the world.

head chopped off
I certainly hope not. Holla Forums is nothing if not a bastion of intellectual diversity and disagreement, due to our own experiences with the uniquely dogmatic identity politics "left." Remember, we're here because we have to be.

Christopher Price
Christopher Price

tfw 4 am and have lost control of my life
Aaanndd, am gone.

I'll probably pick the thread up in the next 8 hours, if its still up or make a new one, who knows

Thanks for all the input, leaves me with some impression that you folks aren't all that willing to gut me up when I come asking you for answers, even if it isn't particularly what am asking

Evan James
Evan James

tbh from your posts I can't tell if I like you or not
and that's a good thing because most fascists that come here are fucking imbeciles

Christian Thomas
Christian Thomas

You should read up some on historical materialism. Marxism - the real kind - is a very scientific way of looking at the world.
Uh, certainly could, although its not my cup of tea, when I wake up after my coming up slumber

Holla Forums is nothing if not a bastion of intellectual diversity and disagreement
But in real revolutionary struggles, it turns to head chopping more often than not, although I must concede that us 'fascists' and regular /pol/ folk aren't a board of peace either

Gee, thanks

Jayden Morgan
Jayden Morgan

I don't care about Zizek. Everytime i listen to him i can't stop laughing because he talks with a mouth filled with spaghetti.

Jose Barnes
Jose Barnes

why are lefties so prone to hero worship?

Grayson Evans
Grayson Evans

What is Donald Trump?

Thomas Phillips
Thomas Phillips

But in real revolutionary struggles, it turns to head chopping more often than not

No doubt. As Judas Priest said, some heads are gonna roll. The good news is that there will be far too many porkies to kill to worry about the ideological purity of the general population. Once the bosses are dead the ideologies of individuals will not be a problem anyway.

Owen Jenkins
Owen Jenkins

A jew-loving corporatist?

Jaxon Parker
Jaxon Parker

uhh. So there are some right wingers that saw his "anti status quo" talking was bullshit.
I'm very impressed.

James Lewis
James Lewis

I think the time has come for both fascists and communists to gather together and have a chat on what's next.
No, fuck off.

Because what's coming, is it communism? Is it fascism?
In the immediate future, it could be either.

Long term, communism is inevitable and fascism won't be able to solve capitalism's problems.

I smell there's this perversion in the air right now, this mix of leftist and right wing thought that is neoliberalism/neoconservatism
There's nothing even remotely leftist about neoliberalism or neoconservativism.

WHAT will replace it?
Socialism

How can we create a system that is finally … pure? And not a corruption of every value we hold dear and stuff.
There are no "pure" or "corrupt" systems. Systems act according to their own internal logic. If something goes awry, it isn't some kind of artificial "corruption", it's that system acting in accordance to its internal logic and yielding undesirable results. The point, then, is to change the system, not chase the specters that are supposedly "corrupting" the system.

Nolan Bailey
Nolan Bailey

Hey OP, youre cool, come around again sometime

Cooper Price
Cooper Price

I think someone else mentioned that being an absolute negation of capitalism might be more important than having a truly positive ideology one works toward. Working toward the latter may not even make sense when there is no space for any kind of positive alternative to capitalism within neoliberalism.

It's questionable whether most of the anarchists who shot at kings, czars, and bourgeois politicians had much of an idea of what they would bring about, yet their attempts to destroy the system, however impotent they were individually, created a negating narrative (i.e. "the system is falling apart") and a sense among the nobility and the politicians who served them that their lives were at stake.

I'm not necessarily saying that is what we should do (I'm not sure how productive it would be at this historical juncture), but that there is value in pure negativity.

Jaxson Stewart
Jaxson Stewart

Woke up and here again.

Sounds like a Sorelian theme rather than a Marxist one what you are pointing out, something like a bunch of small struggles eventually having consequences towards building a better future.

Sorry for bringing in my little value system into considerations of how an economic system should work. Am not exactly a scholar. My problem with the word Socialism, is that it can take many different forms, its a bit of a too abstract and bedeviled thing to mean anything.
Also, what would you mean by socialism even taking those considerations aside? Simply the redistribution of wealth? Don't we have something in place like that already? State Capitalism? Wasn't 'real socialism' that too?
You have to understand from where I am coming with this… a lot of us fascists have some first hand experience with these systems in some shape or the other, although you can allege they aren't exactly socialism, we perceive them as such

Which is why I believe more in ad-hoc cooperation between communists and fascists than I do in one group just joining the other

All in all, it all goes back to the theories am more fond of (and I've read a bit more of), which is somewhat gradual struggle rather than just a one encompassing revolution finishing everything. Like Sorel says

Jason Torres
Jason Torres

Am sure the left will be begging to debate this matter when they are neck deep into the sea of our might when we've finally taken over 2/3rds of the world and we finally force you to debate it; and your beloved world's temperature rises above a degree

jfc even we don't talk this much like supervillains

Caleb Jackson
Caleb Jackson

yes, great idea! Bring all your friends to the x mark on the floor, i promise it's not a trap floor

Juan Brown
Juan Brown

Maybe the two thirds thing was a bit of an exaggeration (although technically it is doable if the US succeeds in spreading our ideology through Bannon and his acolytes to France and the rest of Continental Europe), but the degree part requires very little work. Just staying out of the Paris accords or doing jack shit to implement them

Landon Baker
Landon Baker

was talking more like 'the sea of our might, your beloved world'

just makes you sound silly

but yeah the first thing is pretty unlikely too, this is just a temporary blip I think for neoliberalism

Ayden Rogers
Ayden Rogers

this is just a temporary blip I think for neoliberalism
If it were to be, that'd be pretty much the very worst outcome, because it'd mean no revolution whatsoever is possible and we are all getting bent over

Starving peasants don't make for good revolutionaries, and that'd be the future we are moving towards without any sort of political revolution at precisely this point in time

Lucas Kelly
Lucas Kelly

Starving peasants don't make for good revolutionaries

history seems to demonstrate the exact opposite. fat baby boomers make the worst revolutionaries.

Anyway, I don't judge the future on whether or not it sounds good, more on what seems plausible.

Camden Bennett
Camden Bennett

absolute negation of capitalism
Remember it's not capitalism per se but any system of class rule and material exploitation. It wouldn't be revolutionary to side with the landed nobility against the nascent capitalists, for instance.
Though I believe revolution is ultimately less of a dog and pony show of intellectual purity than we often make it out to be.

fat baby boomers make the worst revolutionaries
I fucking hate the boomers. They set the american left back a hundred years.
I don't judge the future on whether or not it sounds good, more on what seems plausible.
Pragmatism is good in theory but often fails in practice

William White
William White

The south of europe (portugal, spain, greece) had fascist dictatorships until very recently and I don't see them going back soon. Le Pen gets BTFO in every french election. Farage is just a british aristocrat weirdo. I'm not saying fascism isn't growing, but Continental Europe is still very moderate and the establishment has a lot of power.

Brandon Evans
Brandon Evans

We'll see
Although I can certainly see some countries falling to communism and becoming communes, namely those that have had long standing right wing movements that have depleted themselves of power such as Portugal, Spain and Greece

Hell, Spain could fall apart into several statelets

But in others such as France, Germany, Austria, Czechia, Slovakia and Poland I can certainly see it happening over time, since they have either been under long left occupation or have had strong social democratic traditions that have been depleted recently

Maybe my analysis is shallow, but I still believe the world is going to become a patchwork of fascist military juntas and communes that although ideologically different, share a few traits such as: redistribution of wealth from the elites, re-nationalization of industries, new national borders with tariffs and so on

It'd be a new spring of the nations

Aiden Jones
Aiden Jones

Expect none of that is going to happen. World won`t radically change and only new powers to rise within this century are European- and African union. Collective demise of masses will lead into need for larger markets and more stability, all the things that these new continental unions can provide.

Jack Hughes
Jack Hughes

Don't you have a bull to prep? Get outta here, faux socialist

Benjamin Roberts
Benjamin Roberts

I don't think you have a very firm grasp on history

Eli Mitchell
Eli Mitchell

But in others such as France, Germany, Austria, Czechia, Slovakia and Poland I can certainly see it happening over time, since they have either been under long left occupation or have had strong social democratic traditions that have been depleted recently

Germany is very unlikely to fall under facism any time soon. It lacks the ingredients, a perceived lack of order and massive economic problems, to make that happen. Sure, the AFD is doing quite good in election right now, but they won't get anywhere near a majority and every other party is opposed to them.

The majority of germans live in the countryside, even if they work in the cities. They don't really have a taste of what life in a city ghetto means and are perfectly content with the current conditions. The drive into the city for work and then return into their little suburban bubble at the evening. As long as that is the case, people are unlikely to vote anything far right (or left for that matter) of center.

Elijah Morales
Elijah Morales

The recent uptick in right-wing views and acceptance will not last past the crisis that created it. Is the pendulum swinging a bit back to the right? Of course. People know what that leads to, and the promise of national security will only go so far another time around.

Brayden Jenkins
Brayden Jenkins

But people know what that leads to if left unchecked*

Daniel Ortiz
Daniel Ortiz

The centrist scum! This "socdems" once they get into power fill every government department with their best friends and steal taxes money to pay for their lavish lifestyles.
They need to be killed once and for all for the cancer they represent.
These are the true populists!!

Daniel Edwards
Daniel Edwards

there need to be eight communists in the first panel and four dead on the ground in the second panel

Juan Stewart
Juan Stewart

do you duty and sage, comrades