Should democratic socialists and New Dealers be regarded as our enemies?
They still believe in property and markets, does that mean we should disown them for not being principled enough? Should we not accept anything less than our ideal set of standards which will theoretically create a global utopia?
No they did a lot of good for the working class
>ITT: another exciting edition of 'hay guys lets get rid of all the X, t. Holla Forums not /pol'
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damn that shoulder placement freaks me out
and nah, OP. They are potential allies
(OP)
m8
New Dealers (soc dems): No
We should be cool with democratic socialists. They want the same thing. I think having a presence in establishment politics is useful but we shouldn't be diverting too much energy into it as it ultimately can't achieve real systemic change.
but a market must work parallel to the automation system unless you want society to collapse
Anyone who is against the establishment is a friend and can go about it in whatever way they want. They are only enemies when they prevent radicals from their methods.
The USSR did pretty well without markets.
To OP, no. New dealers (socdems) aren't strictly speaking allies, but they are potential targets for radicalization, so they shouldn't be alienated. DemSocs are pretty cool, but I just don't think we can achieve socialism through reform.
I don't see a revolution happening any time soon.
Agreed, but by the same token, reformism just won't work in the US. The oligarchy is too entrenched. There's nothing wrong with trying to get to socialism with reform, as well as having a presence in establishment politics. I just don't think reform is practical. Now maybe it would work in other countries, but I don't see it working in the US. Because of this, we should focus our efforts on agitation and education.
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They don't go far enough but at least they're going in the right direction. Call me a reformist, but I think as long as they serve progressive and not counterrevolutionary ends we shouldn't attack them too harshly.
That said, a lot of parties with some form of "democratic socialist" in the name have become effectively neoliberal apologists for capitalism. *Those* parties are definitely our enemies.
And we will need to turn on market socialists eventually, because they don't go far enough and, given any success, will ultimately be forced to either join us or to defend capitalism.
Fair enough. I think pursuing all methods (reformist, revolutionary, nonviolent and aggressive) is good, rather than just having a narrow focus.
Yes. Fuck them all.
Yes.
Die plz.
No.
Democratic Socialists and "New Deal" Social Dems in my opinion are left wing enough that they are open to our ideas, our struggles and they are willing to fight to improve the lives of the working class, be it within the context of Capitalism.
These people are not our enemies. I've had a massive boost in faith of humanity seeing how many people turned out in support of Sanders, Corbyn etc.
Now who should be our enemies?
Any "Social Democrat" that considers themselves, "moderate", what "moderate" actually means is that they are a "Neo-Liberal with a human face". They sit center-right, they may be socially progressive with believe in gay rights, minority rights etc, but they are fiscally conservative, not as conservative as the actual hard-right, as in I don't think you'll find a "moderate" opposed to something like Welfare, but they are pro-Free Trade, Pro-Corporations, Pro-Capitalism etc.
I've learned something in the past few years. I was a Socialist that believed a few years back that "Moderates" could be courted to the left and spent a lot of time trying to pull them to Socialist viewpoints, but what I have learned and what this past year has solidified with Corbyn and Sanders is that "Moderates" are the most insidious enemy of the left. They hate us more than they hate the right. They will steal our rhetoric and causes and then hollow them out to defend Capital. They are the most ferocious attackers of Leftist views and policies, because they honestly believe that WE are the ones stealing their mantle.
Moderates are not comrades. They are our enemy. They are wolves, that kill sheep, then wear the sheeps skin, going around baaah'ing and pretending to eat grass in a grotesque masquerade, but the second more sheep are added to the paddock, the wolves move on them with claws extended.
this is the "social fascist" bs that the KPD pursued
No considering that the most progress we'll be able to make is for New Dealism to not be considered full gommunism anymore. Even S**ders wasn't really past a New Dealer aside from wanting to fully fund education. But even going back to the old days is out of our reach, since normies are so focused on idpol they see "the old days" as nothing but KKK lynching niggers and women being oppressed housewives.
No, you actually can achieve full socialism eventually by just giving favouritism and special muh privileges to co-ops.
understandable cause their names are way too fucking similar and there's a lot of overlap, but avoid in the future.
Luckily most marksocs really see it as an intermediary step though.
no
No it isn't. Social Fascism is basically a name for anybody that is Social Democratic because Social Democracy acts in service to Capitalism thus, they are reactionary enemies.
I do not believe this is true, I believe New Dealers and truly progressive liberals are allies because they are highly skeptical of Capitalism and they do care for the working class.
"Moderates" though are not friends of the working class, they are progressive only when it comes to idpol, but are some of the most ferocious defenders of capital when it comes to fiscal policy and base ideology.
In all my years, I have never had anybody attack us on the left harder, than liberals who call themselves "moderates", they're attacks also stick as well, because they play up the "Horseshoe Theory" bullshit and appeal to the status quo authority.
Depends on the political state of your country, but in general no. Your contry needs to be very far left before the policies that we would push become substantially different. Division is a luxury we can't afford. (But if you can fuck those porky lovers)
Yes, absolutely. They've been obfuscating the ideals of the left while handing the means of production over to corporate controlled state for generations now. They are more dangerous than the right because they cloak themselves in leftism while achieving capitalist ends.
It is a necessary step towards the liberation of the people.
I wouldn't be that hasty about it. I think at least some of them oppose both in the long run but know how to present themselves to the masses (ie. Bernie). I've seen membership in Socialist International to be a pretty good (but having some false positives and false negatives) indicator of whether or not a party is decent and committed to anticapitalism.