Why do people lie about mario sunshine being good...

This is the kind of thing that divides 3D Mario games opinion.
I listed 64 first because I think it's open world done right. Sunshine kind of fucked this up but it was the same concept, and it was even more fucked up by Galaxy. By Galaxy 2 most stars in a world changed the world completely and you had to do the specific course for the specific star.
I agree that the level design in Galaxy 2, being more linear focused is great, but Sunshine expanded on the exploration of 64 by giving you a damn jet pack.

It's actually one of the best Mario games ever. It's not out fault your taste is so bad.

The reason why exploration worked in Mario 64 was because it was treated as either a collect-a-thon or a puzzle and it just worked. Slow exploration just doesn't belong in a Mario game.

64 and sunshine are similar, but sunshine deviates and obfuscates what made 64 great and lessens some of what made 64 great.

galaxy 1 and 2 are obviously very similar. mario controls similarly and a the levels are given more focus in galaxy 2.

3d land and 3d world are also very similar, and I hope this set of two constitutes this type of mario and that don't do a 3d world 2. I long to see a mario with the depth of 64 again, but an even further expanded move set, where you can keep mario going faster with good player control, get him higher with more adept moves, and sprawling, levels with distinct focuses and meaningful ways in which the game encourages the players' growth. Nintendo has shown in each title they are capable of doing this, but rarely ever capitalize on this.

this is like saying riding in a wheel chair is more fun than parkour

I used an actual wii and an actual gamecube controller to play that sandbird level, all you do is move around, not even hard

I fail to see how the jet pack makes the exploration slower. I mean, yes, the jet pack was slow, but there were ways to make it work faster. You had to be conscious of your water usage as well, making it an extra challenge.
Honestly, I don't understand why people bitch so much about fludd. It could have been better, but it was already good. It was a collect-a-thon with a jet pack, plus those platforming levels.

Care to expand on that?

You could do that on Sunshine.

And I fucking forgot about the water slide. That shit was fun and fast.

I liked Sunshine, but I feel like the game was a bit patronizing compared to previous games. I don't mind the setting, I don't mind the story, I don't even mind the FLUDD water pump, I just wish the game wasn't so easy. It's only difficult if you make it difficult by deliberately doing something to hinder your movement, like vowing to do nothing but spin jumps for the entirety of your playthrough, but that's just tedious bullshit. Maybe they could've increased the water pump's water usage so that players must use it sparingly, or given it a more specific and contextual use that doesn't seem to carry Mario throughout the entire game.

Look at Prince of Persia Sands of Time. The gimmick was the time manipulation, but you can practically play through the entire game without it. It served as a crutch to aid players while they learn how to maneuver through each level and also gave an edge in combat. The final level of the game takes away your time powers and makes you climb a huge castle and a series of towers that comprise the largest obstacle course in the game and that forces you to incorporate all the techniques you've learned up until that point.

Mario Sunshine had no such thing. The FLUDD could be used for everything, and it diminished the utility of Mario's jumps, which only hurt the actual platforming in the end. Still a decent game. Fuck you, the music is great.

you can get mario faster and higher by relying on an unenjoyable water pack and not through player skill. There's no agility involved, there's no dexterity or planning, it's just kick off a wall, slowly, awkwardly water pack around, or use the rocket pack and call it a day. Fucking lame. No skill involved, no reward or sense of dedication.

You keep saying that, but I enjoyed it a lot. At this point is right, you probably have bad taste when it comes to it.

Except there is. kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Super_Mario_Sunshine
Difference between Sunshine and 64 move selection is that most of the "advanced" moves in 64 are due to glitches. If Sunshine feels slower to you, is probably because you have to play it as intended. You still need skill to handle it really good, you just don't need that to finish the game, but that's true for all Mario games.

I give to you that Sunshine might be the easiest, but by no mean that means it's the worst. Also, the last Bowser fight was terrible.

there is no enjoyment in using the water pack which 80% of the game focuses on. The level designs are horrible and that is the main detriment to the game. Most of the time you are encouraged to awkwardly platform with the water pack, or the worst implementation of yoshi in a few levels, or awkwardly use the water pack to clean up some retarded mess or fight some overly-condescending boss. It is easily the worst main-line mario game thanks to the retarded gimmick and how much catering they do to something as slow and shallow as the water pack.

Yeah, that's the point. It's obvious that you wouldn't like it since you didn't like the water pack, but I did.

I hate to break it to you but
MARIO GAMES ARE DESIGNED FOR KIDS
And yet they're pretty impresive. If you hate gimmicks, they're everywhere, 64 being the one with less gimmick, you had the damn Tanuki suit in Super Mario 3 and all.

I understand that you hate that the game revolves around FLUDD, or that you want to control just Mario, but there's nothing particularly wrong with FLUDD or the game design, because Mario moves as fast as he did in 64, but with the new addition of a water tank. you just have shit taste, or you just want Mario 64 with water physics.

You're the one fixated on the water pack mate, I said plainly the main issue with the game was the terrible level design. I get that you like it and you can pew pew shoot it to move faster, but you don't need to obsess over it. Mario also does not move as fast as he does in 64. Some aspects were deliberately butchered like the side flip.

It's still better than a vast majority of 3d platformers in spite of it's many flaws.

You're retarded if you think this is even slightly true.

yes, I can see what you mean. Few 3D platformers really have much depth, and despite sunshine's absolutely terrible and uninteresting level design, it does have this upper hand in its design. Unfortunately many of the things it does that occupy your time that other 3D platformers do too, namely focus on collectibles, is really bad in sunshine. the blue coins are just irritating to collect, to name a noteworthy problem.

What's wrong with the level design? Go a step further than just saying, "it's shit" and point out specific examples. It'd also be preferable if you could find some video footage to emphasize your point.

The thing is, the water pack is obviously the best thing it have considering 80% of the game revolves about it.
Care to expand in how the game design is terrible? Is the same if not better than 64.

Any prove of this?

I do agree with this. But you already have the jet that can do exactly that and more anyway.

You see faggots ITT that like Sunshine and others who don't and for different reasons. This is not something objective, it's more of taste.

generally vast open spaces that rarely provide a platforming challenge. The challenges are all too often focused on giving the player reasons to use the fludd. spinning things, cleaning up things, and generally not navigation of the environment. The game also has a tendency to want to introduce things for the sake of variety. Yoshi really needs to be mentioned for how horrible it is, even though he only appears in 3 areas to my memory. The game focuses all too much on justifying delphino isles as legitimate locations and incorporating their existence in a platforming game. So you end up running around some rather empty and flat feeling beaches, dull theme parks and large areas that seem to exist to entirely provide purpose to the water pack. Not to mention the entire volcano boat ride.

The game is very satisfying when you're without the fludd in the underground mario stages. They are pure platforming centric challenges and there is a lot to enjoy being tested at how well you can control mario with no crutch, navigating with moving platforms and around obstacles, keeping your ground on flipping blocks, it works very well. But it's not a staple of the game in any way, and the game sadly treats these sections as novelty.

Stopped reading right there
Whenever some shithead takes a game that isn't complete trash (i.e. Decent) and says "worst", you know he's baiting. It works vice versa if the game is complete trash and the guy says it's the "best".

And those throwback underground levels were intended to sate the fans that wanted to see more platforming. They were abundant, and some rather difficult. FLUDD makes the game more fun and interesting, and makes boss battles actually enjoyable.

Galaxy is the real cancer we should be talking about. How come the wii incarnation of mario 64 couldnt have been mario in california with F.L.A.M.E.S., a FLUDD that shoots fire? And set wildfires to all the wildlife and sinners?

Because California doesn't take place in a galaxy.

the underground levels devolved into boring, unfun gimmick levels after just a few good ones.

It doesnt have to be called "mario galaxy", thats why the subject in that sentence is "wii incarnation" and not "mario galaxy"

Example? Which levels werent fun? The early ones were obviously easy while they contiued to get harder as you advanced through the islands and unlocked more FLUDD. I thought they were all pretty well done

here's an iconic one

Why I'm not surprised.

oh, you actually enjoyed that level? It seemed to remove the one enjoyable moment from sunshine and replaced it with more gimmicks.

How would Mario reach California anyway?

It's abundance of casual filters.
Easily one of the best 3D mario games when shit like Galaxy 1 and 2 are linear and piss easy comparatively.
I replay it every summer as a strange sort of ritual.
Remembering the series as it was right up until the point of regression into casual pleasing filth.

>Bowser is shoehorned in at the last minute with some of the worst voice acting I've ever seen

It's sad that the most interesting/fun parts of the games are the parts where they took the water machine away from you.

the thing is, the environments are pretty nice, but they are so samey it makes it very unappealing to play for any length of time. A proper theme park and not a tropical resort location would likely lend a lot of variety to a location that a mario game will be right at home with. You could make holiday themed locations, seasonal, underground and many more. There's lots you can do, but sunshine just squandered that.

it is a good 3d mario, it's just not what anyone expected or really wanted. also because of that I'm pretty sure thats why they went with luigi's mansion for launch.

All they had to do was have a different pallet. The only 2 places I remember being slightly different is the hotel which was sunset outside basically the same as anywhere else inside, and the city that was in the sky at nighttime and even then it wasn't that dark or tinted.

The whole game was fucking white/tan/grey walls + green grass with a few colorful props in the background.

there is that last level which takes place at night time iirc. lots of dark blues, purples but still the game feels too bright even there? I think the entire aesthetic is very flawed and building a game in just locale with the same assets does not help.

This is the one I was taking about. I forgot if theres another one.

The entire level is green grass, grey walkways, grey stalks, red mushroom caps, green gates. They didn't even try to tint it or anything.

Infact the only thing that looks like it's tinted at all for nighttime is the big tree which is grey + dark blue.

its like neon vomit or something. There is so much they could have done to effectively light a night time level that would look great in the setting, and they do this? I know the game is rushed, it's got like half the amount of content of over 3D Mario games but god damn, it's hard to tell what's rushed and what's just lazy.

But that's wrong, though. Why would you lie about Sunshine being bad?

I don't get it

hard to find a good screenshot on google, but iirc the sun is blocked out except for around delfino plaza.

It succeeds in one aspect though.

Makes me thirsty every time I play it.
The game is alright nigger, lighten up.

Thirsty for what?

Here's your reply.

bump

Literally the only fun parts of the game are the levels without FLUDD as well as fucking around with the rocket and booster.

Horrible, horrible.

I'm just making sure this video's brought up.