LGBT+ rights, feminism etc

Alright I would like to have y'all answers on some questions i am asking myself :

I am from France and here the Left (Anarchism, Communism, mutualism etc.) is pretty much an ideology fought for by the same that fights for LGBT+, feminist and PoC rights.
I'm a newcomer here (knew this board with the election in the US, Holla Forumsack shit and so on) and I've seen that for most of you don't believe this is important, or that the 'sjw' are just braindead liberals.

So I would like to ask you the following :
Because here in France structuralism is strong and most people from Antifascist Aktion, the Communist Party, the Black Block and so on believe that the Patriarchy (le Patriarcat) is another structure that rules society and that should be taken down
In France those who do not believe that the patriarchy is "real" still believes that there is at least discriminations regarding minorities, and most believe an insurrectional/revolutionary situation would destroy those discrimination (like the French Revolution and la Commune were episodes where women were totally integrated to the revolutionary process and were total equal to their male comrades)

Apologies from grammar mistakes, hope you can answer my question

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_human_nature
independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-mainstream-press-lse-study-misrepresentation-we-cant-ignore-bias-a7144381.html

Hi fellow frog
These only exist as subproducts of a society divided by class, and thus will effectively die when their root is taken away. Trying to take them down without killing the root (i.e., taking a non-radical approach), however, will only result in the hydra of idpol creating more new and stronger heads.

There is indeed a problem with those, however they shouldn't be dealt with within Capitalism itself, but only in anti-Capitalist organisations.
As I said earlier, you cannot remove discrimination from Capitalism, so any effort at doing so is futile. I think the very organisations of struggle against Capitalism should implement equality and never, ever attempt to do such stupid things as trying to change Hollywood culture. Instead, they should provide themselves a culture of their own which is naturally egalitarian. This alone will attract these minorities to anti-Capitalist organisations and gain their support much more effectively.

All struggles come from class struggle, therefore focusing on one of the effect of capitalism is not productive.
Identity politics shall not be the main focus of a proletarian revolution.

No. There's plenty of dumb ideology floating around which includes sexist and racist ideas (some of which are perpetuated by feminists) but it is not a structure or system and cannot be "taken down".

There are individual cases of discrimination against them, but there are also individual cases of discrimination against any other group you could name. There are genuinely oppressed minorities (pedophiles, for one) but you will never hear feminists advocating for their basic human rights because feminism is ultimately normative and bourgeois.

My view is yes, patriarchy does exist (it's fucking obvious, women are clearly held far lower rung of the power ladder than males) and isn't necessarily tied to the economic conditions. There is no reason in my mind, oppression still can't happen in a Communist system, for totally arbitrary irrational reasons.
That being said, working on fighting patriarchy within capitalism, does not much for the true liberation of women. Patriarchy must be fought, but a class context. So that when we do build a Socialist society, outdated irrational cultural values don't transfer over simply because people think women belong in the kitchen by nature or some shit.

Fighting Patriarchy without class, basically just becomes a fight for women to become porkies to oppress their sisters.

Indeed, that's why everyone just laughed when Hilary said she wanted to be President and the DNC and Wall St. chose a man to run as their candidate instead. It would be inconceivable for a woman to be supported by huge swathes of the media in a bid for one of the most powerful positions on the planet. A woman certainly couldn't hope to get any significant support by making her gender the key feature of her campaign.

go away

maybe patriarchy just is natural. I don't see how you make women totally equal to men without discriminating against men.

most women that believe in patriarchy don't even practice what they preach. they complain about masculinity then go out and have sex with aggressive "alpha" men. it's laughable

I think gender roles are pretty shit myself and I hate racism. I do cringe whenever I hear people chanting "black power" or "white power". However complete equality just sounds like a pipe dream.

Maybe I'm biased because I'm a faggot, but under communism, you are free to live as you please, you just won't get any extra rights than anybody else because you're a faggot. We'll probably even be allowed to build our own gay bars, become sex change surgeons and continue proliferating the internet with multidicked hermaphrodite furries.

We might not be allowed to hold pride parades, but we won't need to because the oppression that started it in the first place will be over. And since a denial of service to any comrade with a labor voucher will likely be illegal, we'll even get our traumatizing cakes.

And if we want to be absolute faggots, we can start our own commune where everyone walks around naked, randomly fucking each other as we go about doing our daily activities.

It's lower.
Really makes you think.
Tough call.

No it isn't because women in the West are the fucking most muh privileged group that ever existed on this earth. They literally can do anything they want while often having better chances for position because of quotas and shit. At the same time, they retained their muh privileges which originated from the era of patriarchy such as dodging military draft and a chance to marry into the upper class, for example.

...

That word filter isn't funny

yes comrade the real revolution needs to be focused on making more woman porkies

gulag yourself

Equality of opportunity was only achieved in the last couple of decades. I would expect it to take at least ~50 years before that manifests itself as equality in outcomes. It takes time for children to grow up, and most top-level positions require decades of experience. They're not going to say "oh, women are equal now, let's promote the secretary to CEO".

Neither is being a newfag and pointing out word filters although I'll agree it's pretty poor.

You want a real tragedy of a word filter? Autism levels instead of good boy points for Autism Level. Truly tragic.

...

Derp walked into that.

IQ for I.Q

what's the word filter for muh muh privileges?

lel

That's bullshit.
Not the secretary but that's literally what happens right now.


kek, the word filters change every week or so actually I unironically thought that when someone wrote muh muh privileges it's intentional

women have always been more valued than men you fool

why do men have to die in their millions in wars? society sees men are disposable and worthless

wait, what the fuck would getting more women CEOs and bosses accomplish if we are working towards communism?
wtf is this liberal shit

Didn't anyone tell you? The goal of communism is to make sure that the statistics for every identity group are exactly equal. Individuals don't matter, nor does total happiness - only relative statistics are real.

I doubt heavily a frog would use the american af term PoC

fyi to all of >>>Holla Forums
if you end up with a group on here that seriously views The Patriarchy as a serious thing over bourgeoisie elements then you';; become everything your opponents think you are

I'm not the kind of person who'll shout down people who want to talk about racism, sexism or homophobia and say "IT'S JUST ABOUT CLASS". All these things are valid and should be talked about. But the way in which these discussions are framed are so often divisive, insular and pedantic and alienates people from the causes they promote.

There's also, among some, a belief that if you cram women and people of colour into positions of hierarchy and power, they'll change things and make everything good. Because they're inherently good and white men are inherently evil. Which deflects from the system and concentrates on its window dressing. Such thinking will never get us anywhere.

I believe that these "structures" are NOT separate from capitalism, but are all intertwined and subject to the superstructure created and maintained by the current base. Leftypol isn't one person, but I know that there are many on here who are not racists, not sexists, and oppose those ideals. We just don't want to fucking talk about it 24/7 and most of us are of the mind that if we overthrow capitalism and remove the material conditions that give rise to these types of thoughts, "feminism" and "racism" would be non-issues. Not only that, many mainstream feminist and anti-racist movements are co-opted by bourgeosie ideology which supports more black and women CEOs. Cut off the head of the snek first tbh.

this. don't let them get a foothold. zero tolerance for this bullshit.

Hi, OP here.

Read this thread, it makes me a little sad.

So basically we have those who believe that women in the west are all "muh prilevege", and some who believe they're poor little discrimated against kitten that need helps.

I'd like to say that the sjw trends and its advocate, while being really loud and annoying, still factually represent a minority in the ideological spectrum of women. Remember that while most women today are a little carried towards it because of the permanent sjw bashing on social medias, most people, women included, are apolitical.
Meaning most people are never going to advocate for 'muh muh privilege' and whatnot because they just don't have any opinion about it. (At least i believe that. In France the voter turnout for most election nowadays is 60/70%, a lot don't vote and a lot of voter are pretty 'centrist' and lack deep political ideology)
I say all this because i've seen some answer that have basically said that women all believe in gender muh privilege, and that all of feminism is de facto bullshit and that we don't have to fight against sexism because it doens't exist or blablabla.

Btw a little startled that some of you believe that naturally women are inferior or different or whatnot… I'd like you all to remember what Marx said about human nature: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_human_nature
We are social beings. Men and women only exists in social representation because of social norms. Apart from obvious sexual criteria, our differences are social norms.
Even some ethnologist like Françoise Héritier believes differences between muscular mass and height, which are genetical, are inherited from the social status of men (hunters) and women (berry picker) during the early ages of our kind, which resulted in different eating habits and socially endorsed behaviour.

Thanks to those who gave a thought out answer.
i'd like to add that through europe what i'm saying is pretty widely accepted, i have a hard time believing some of you think its idpol to even talk about it. :/


In French we use 'Racisé' but I've never seen something like 'racised' or whatever in english so I googled a little to find a decent translation.

You obviously haven't been here long. We get threads every single day asking "why don't you brocialists care more about women", "why is Marx such an evil cishet white man", and "why don't you talk about how we can get more black CEOs instead of prattling on about that silly 'communism' stuff". In the face of intense shitposting, the response is naturally hostile. You have every other fucking "leftist" website on the internet to talk about this shit. Reddit would fucking love to talk about it. We came here to escape it.

Also, personally, I hold "SJWs" in the highest contempt because it is abundantly clear that non of them are interested in fighting genuine oppression. That's too hard and morally complex for tumblr. You can't get an internet hate-mob to rally in support of people who are despised by society. They only ever want to discuss the hardship faced by groups who are widely accepted by society and generally face relatively little hardship. If modern feminism had existed 100 years ago, the feminists would have all owned slaves and been crying about how oppressed landowner women are compared to landowner men. This hatred for feminists somewhat taints my opinion of the issues they claim are so important.

But men and women are different. Not necessarily a bad thing, just how it is.

How's that working out? I live in the UK and antifa and anarchists are all edgy liberals. The left has also been slowly dying here as every liberal time and time again stabs us in the back. Reminder to Brits that the Guardian and Independent supported a Tory government near election. Gulags all round for that one.
They ruin absolutely everything they touch. They slowly infiltrate and meddle in order to further their control. They have pretty much everywhere on the internet from revleft to reddit. They're banned on site at this point for being so insidious. Look up the progressive stack at OWS. It's COINTELPRO to ensure capitalism itself is never questioned.

Yup. Not making Jezza out to be perfect, but The Guardian has been ruthlessly undermining him every step of the way. Revealed their true colours.

the guardian has always been unbearable. a liberal shit rag.

they've been attacking corbyn since he was elected leader, in September 2015

Op here.

Ok that's fair, I have been there for less than a week, I guess you're right.
And it's true that this discussion happens a lot outside, while there is a lot of things talked about here that are totally inexistant elsewhere, first thing being the class struggle and discussion about economics.
I also understand you don't want to be plagued by sjw.

That's just one part of it.
You can't brush away the social aspect of humans life since small tribes and societies started existing.
I didn't say nothing about humans was natural, just that those who didn't take in the social aspect of our lives and that are just saying 'in todays society women are different, smaller and less able, therefore it has always been like this and is natural and i am always right' are taking terrible ideological shortcuts
And i'm not denying science is concrete of course

I'm going to guess this is an entirely fictional story. Then again, he does ride a Chairman Mao-style bike.

Faggots need to go back into the closest. Why is the left so focused on these issues that alienate the working class?

The working class in western Europe isn't homophobic in general. That's a burger thing.

everything. calling him outdated, delusional, ideological, naive, shilled articles written by Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson and David Miliband, advocated a vote for Yvette Cooper (who supported the Iraq War). The true face of liberalism revealed

independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-mainstream-press-lse-study-misrepresentation-we-cant-ignore-bias-a7144381.html

I know. Labour has always been reformist and rather weak. But Corbyn is a good man. He dares to question them.

Gays are fine. I don't mind them being gay. The thing is, in the UK there's pretty much no systematic discrimination against them any more. The problem is solved, so there's no point trying to make it a central part of leftism. It's just a divisive distraction.

They did that way before, near the election in 2015 they came out in favour of the ConDem. Same with the Indy.

Anti Corbyn hysteria is the best.

Do you see what you wrote? This is why we are fucking pissed about Idpol, because otherwise we would be despondent.

People are so disconnected from the notion of class that class consciousness is not even realized by the most radical parts of the population. So much for anti-capitalism.

Except they're complete misrepresentations of what he actually said/did, just like every other headline about him.

Right wing media has a strangle hold on large parts of the British working class, it's sad.

Salut. I'm going to frame your questions in another way.
Yes, homophobia still exists, sexism still exists, etc.

That's where I'm not so sure.
How do you qualify that structure ? Is it just a legal system where PoCs, women, etc, are given less rights than the cis-white male™? Or is it just common social attitudes towards those groups of people ?

If it is strictly the former, I would say that these structures are living their last days, at least in the West. I can't think of any French law that systemically disadvantages women, PoCs and LGBTs right now.
If it is the latter, I find that way of qualify a structure too "fluid", but whatever I'm not very well versed in structuralist theories so I would agree that these social attitudes still exist.

But the thing about taking it down is more complex.
A lot of racism in France for example stems from the fact that a lot of maghrebis and blacks, for historical reasons, are poor, isolated in shitty suburbs, and in turn resort to petty criminality.
Another example is the wage gap, which is profitable for companies.
Not every discrimination has its roots in capitalism, but a non-negligible part of them do.

this. just endless propaganda


i'm not so sure. i think that's a liberal myth that gets projected onto the working class.

i'm working class myself and the most insular and spiteful people i meet are lower-middle class. petty bourgeois UKIP types

After accounting for hours worked, seniority, etc. it basically disappears. If there was a wage gap do you think Porky would hesitate to hire women over men 9 times out of 10?

The patriarchy benefits, so in the long run does the porky.

You're right, they are easily led retards who love kicking down. They're spineless fucks who let themselves get taken to the cleaners by the banks and blame everyone but themselves and those in charge for it.

If you actually think it exists, go and start a company employing highly skilled women in technical roles for 90% of what their male colleagues get paid. You should be able to profit massively compared to the male-dominated competition who have to pay ~10% more to their workers for the same quantity and quality of work. You can use the money to fund whatever bullshit liberal causes you like.

Kek, bit harsh but you're not wrong, they don't really seem to care. I have a general malaise towards all Brits due to the financial crash, but I fucking hate the cunts online. They're alright in person, not sure which dickhead demographic is doing all the shit stirring but on the internet it's just constant bitching about the unemployed, single mothers, the disabled. I bet these people keep quiet in person because they're BTFO constantly but as the elections show they won't stop being wrong in the voting booth.

Essentially he said "wouldn't it be lovely if war wasn't a thing and armies weren't necessary" at an event to remember the Hiroshima bombing.

Right wing tabloids frame this as "MAD JEZZ WANTS TO GET RID OF THE ARMY". It's very typical.

Fuck I look a right cunt without the other post.

Poster said council estate chav scum don't care unless they're too poor for cigarettes, which is true. The smokes are generally the final straw.

replied to wrong post sorry

Most of the chavs have been poor their whole lives so it's unsurprising.

honestly as someone who grew up in a council estate chavs are ignorant and regressive but ultimately not dangerous because they're so wholly adrift from politics. Lumpenproletariat 101.

Not in anarchists and libertarian-Marxist circles in France.
I don't interact much with the far-left militants and squatters outside of punk shows where I live because they are basically liberals on steroids, obsessed with intersectionnality.
I feel like I'm someone bad in their eyes, because I happen to be heterosexual and have a dick.
They are basically like /r/anarchism IRL.

Et aussi cettE tendancE à féminisER dES textES militantE.S dE cettE manièrE est assEZ ridiculE et illisiblE. Autant écrirE en anglais si la grammairE françaisE vous insupportE tant, vous aurEz unE plus grandE audiencE.

Fiver says OP is like this. Pretty much the whole punk and antifa scene are liberals with edgy branding.

I knew an anfem punk who wanted controls on the internet because of butthurt feminists getting their asses cyberbullied. I lol'd until she deleted me.

Liberals with edgy branding.

Sounds like a spooky Human nature argument son. Gender roles will be largely irrelevant in a post capitalist society.

ok, but then men are still going to be stronger and taller on average. feminists won't like that

And more sexually dominant.

i mostly agree with this, except for this part.

i think its more of an excuse than the cause.
if we take France for example, before black and arab immigrants, italians and Pole suffered from discrimination.

it turns out that in most countries, the fastest growing minority group gets all the blame.

it has more to do with tribalism than anything else.
a primitive and subconscious reaction to what is seen as an invasion/threat.

i don't think it will ever go away, we can just limit its damage at best.

because of the way capitalism operates as a zero sum game, taking down the patriarchy will leave a void of power that will immediately be filled by the next group. Likely this could be whites, women, POC, etc but because of the inherent hierarchical structure of capitalism they will grow to abuse their power and a new movement will start for a new revolution, with out addressing the actual issue which is hierarchy itself(an eminent property of capital).

"A woman president makes me feel about a safe as a woman police officer"