Is socialism/communism even possible today?

Check it. We all know that any time a socialist state arises in the world, it comes under enormous pressure from Western capitalism to destabilize it. Historically, this has led to the failure of every promising socialist/communist government to date. We all know that communism cannot exist in competition with capitalism. In a head-to-head matchup, capitalism will always win, because it's ductile, etc. This would suggest that no socialist state will succeed in the world while other nations are still capitalist.

So what road does this lead for us? We cannot create a socialist state through revolution. It will be corrupted and squeezed by capitalists until it crumples, leaving a violent and horrifying legacy, like every truly socialist country to date. Even if we successfully create it, it will not survive in the present global political climate. It does not matter how innocent and blameless it is (though any government is rarely so) – it will be targeted by imperialist Western influence.

To me, this suggests that reformism is the only true path for socialism right now. The only viable way to create a socialist state is to take a capitalist one and subvert it from within, preferably a powerful one that can't be bullied by other global powers. That's why entryists like Sanders are so important. And if we're not planning ways to do this, aren't we just memeing on an imageboard, without any real conviction in our cause, just like Holla Forums?

tl;dr Marx says only global revolution can create communism. Since there's no plan for that, how do we even work towards it right now?

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_Marxism

As long as we have democracy, every society will eventually slide towards communism.
And as Trump has perfectly proven, the presidential elections are most likely not rigged to favor the political elite.

Fuck, wrong file.

He didn't actually say this.

Here is my honest opinion. It is going to be unpopular on this board.

I believe you're right, and that communism is going to occur only through reform. I believe that the left could benefit from realizing this ASAP, and opening itself up to the idea that UBI is going to be the stepping stone.

Whenever I say this, the ideological purists scream and cry that you're now just giving more power to capitalists.

But honestly, imagine the impossibility and vastness of our technology and infrastructure compared to 1867 or even 1917. There's absolutely no way. There's too much technology and power in the hands of capitalists.

If the left wants to work towards communism, UBI is the only possibility outside of mass human extinction from climate change, wherein the only people that remain are leftists.

Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_Marxism

Keep the masses on welfare and tell them it's the only way to fix capitalism. Kill yourself.

But he didn't say that verbatim, so I think it's dishonest to post that quote. Not that I disagree with you.

This isn't true.

Firstly, there has yet to be any communist society on this earth. Secondly, capitalism won't always win against socialism because while capitalism is clearly defined, the precise structure of socialist society is still somewhat unknown - while we understand that there is no private property or production for profit under socialism, there is still much debate as to what institutions exactly will replace them. There are many answers to this, one of which is the Stalinist bureaucratic planned economy, but it's not the only one.

Due to this, we cannot say that Capitalism will always win over the alternative because we do not yet have a good handle on what the alternative even is. Furthermore, capitalism is falling apart before our very eyes, and will continue falling apart as time goes on, until even Stalin's USSR might seem like a preferable alternative.

In one of the ways, it's regrettable that any of the earlier socialist revolutions were ever successful. Socialism may have been better served if the Bolsheviks had been soundly crushed, so as to preserve the dream of their socialist world republic until such time as capitalism became sufficiently weak for a socialist revolution to take root globally. On the other hand, perhaps it's better that we were shown the shortcomings of their system at such an early point in history - I, for one, would not like to see a world socialist republic under Stalin's thumb.

There is also the issue that capitalism is an economic system that has taken root in parts of the world governed by elites with massive military power at their disposal. So long as it serves them, they will continue to preserve the system, and in order to preserve the system, they must export it, in order to open up new markets and acquire new resources so as to feed the engine of capitalism. Socialism (generally of the flawed Marxist-Leninist (read: Stalinist) tradition) has mostly taken root in poor peripheral countries where the capitalist system serves nobody at all, or the elites whom it does not benefit are not strong enough to impose it upon the majority - the problem with this is that the economic elites of the imperialist West tend tend to take issue with not having access to foreign markets, and so they try to bribe segments of the local population with the promise of massive wealth in order to bring the rest into poverty and service to capitalism. If this fails, they tend to bring gunships and marines to fore.

In the end, due to the fact that the USSR survived, we are unfortunately required to make amends for the anomaly by trying to recreate it, in such a way as to restore its credibility and demonstrate its viability, both of which were lost through its survival, or at least create an alternative sort of society that, while still capitalist, would not have the defining institutions that prevents any movements away from capitalism, as is the case with the bourgeois state. Whatever happens, capitalism will fall. It is our business to do what we can to ensure that it is a socialist society that rises from the ashes and prevent our collective regression into barbarity.

I'm not against UBI because I'm against reformism *although most on leftypol are* but because I don't think it will work.

Unions had this same problem with large corporations when they would ask for pay raises. They wanted the pay raises to come out of the PROFITS of the company.

Instead the corps like GM passed maintained their profit margins and passed on the cost to the CUSTOMERS. And make fucking sure that the customers knew it.

This is why you have the maymay that many proles believe that increasing minimum wage will just lead to inflation.

It's a good lie cause it's half true.

Same with UBI, unless you make sure that UBI comes out of the SURPLUS VALUE porky steals, porky will just raise the rent, interest and insurance on everything to get it back.

You really have to be careful because every UBI scheme I've seen calls for the abloishment of traditional welfare once it's enacted.

UBI will placate the masses. Why would they want to overthrow capitalism when at the end of the day, they can still get their food and shelter. It might be menial, but it's something.

When I say that capitalism will always win against socialism, I'm quoting Marx. "Empirically, communism is only possible as the act of the dominant peoples “all at once” and simultaneously, which presupposes the universal development of productive forces and the world intercourse bound up with communism."

And also this comic:

Ok, then how do we get UBI implemented? What about single-player healthcare or tuition-free education? What do we do about that? If we want socialism to actually succeed we need to have a plan, which I don't think Holla Forums does. That's why there's so much infighting on this board. It's all a bunch of competition over ideology because no one has an actual way forward.

That's why it's gotta be socialism in America, bitch.
On a more serious note, I think socialism via democratic vote and peaceful general strikes wouldn't necessarily result in hostility from western powers. Maybe, maybe not.
If fuckin iceland first cooperativized everything, then nationalized every industry one by one and abolished commodity production (with the exception of trading with other countries), I don't think other countries would immediately turn hostile. But especially not if the US did it first.
The US could do it through guaranteed employment through the military. Nobody would fuck with them.

Capitalism can only last so long before it enters a recession or currency is no longer valued. Socialism will be possible if there's another economic collapse.

This board is turning into complete trash. Where did this influx of opportunist liberals come from?

Of course Holla Forums doesn't have a plan because it's not a political party and you should stop confusing it with one.

If Holla Forums doesn't have a plan, then what is everyone doing here? What makes us any better than Holla Forums, shitposting and memeing about a radical ideology we have no commitment to or intention to follow through on?


I've been here this entire year, you fuckwit.

It's a space to discuss politics and shitpost. If you want to get politically active join a real world party or start your own. Trying to get an image board in the intestinal tract of the internet to become a unified political force is a fucking waste of time.

Don't advocate for this board to remain the realm of armchair philosophers and keyboard warriors. We organized for Bernie during the primaries. We have a thread on joining the YPG to fight ISIS. Degenerating into shitposting is fucking cancer, and it's the real reason this board is turning into complete trash. It used to be a space for real discussion of theory and action.

The military is notoriously conservative, though. Some branches more than others. They're also even more spooked about communism than the average American.

Enough of this we can't aliveate any prole suffering cause they'll slavishly support capitalism forever and ever maymay.

UBI, if it's coming out of surplus value porky stole, will reduce the amount of surplus value porky extracts from labor.

This will undermine the base.

THE BASE SUPERSEDES THE SUPERSTRUCTURE YOU REACTIONARY CUM GUZZLER

so? they wouldn't recognize socialism if it wasn't pointed out to them.
Trump could say right now "We're going to employ everyone ladies and gentlemen. We're going to take advantage of our amazing military, big league. Through the military, we can provide everyone employment directly producing what's needed and we don't have to be dependent on China. We're bringing back every manufacturing job to the United States folks"
and they'd love it

Reformism is working right cuck? Having surplus redistributed as sustenance by the state is nothing new. It does nothing to undermine the base. The fact that fascist and lolberts support UBI is telling of how counterintuitive it is to any leftist cause.

I wondered that myself and gave an example with the large hadron collider.


The essence I got from that thread was "There is no need to talk about this, it will just work ;^)"

I'm not impressed.
It all feels like nostalgia and dreaming to me, especially since western countries ultimately fight back against communism in the end.

It's just not in the interest of the people, it seems. It's too liberal and destructive.

By virtue of not having the infrastructure backbone, etc.

And of course the general egalitariarism and whatnot, a belief that plummets down the more different people live together, because it just doesn't work like that. Not in the timeline of our universe.

In our universe, Europeans soared above everyone else and the divide is so strong that there will be eternal strife between people, especially if the modus operandi is to besmirch whitey all the time.

Not to mention da j0000000s, who aren't the nice tribe many seem to believe they are.

...

Keep taking concessions, reformism will achieve socialism any time soon!

Logically flawed argument. Guilty by association.

Also I said it'd have to come out of porky surpluss value otherwise UBI will just get eaten by inflation.

If it comes out of porkies profits it will work. And fuck you. We got proles hanging on by their fingernails. You act tough on line but I'd like to see your soft ass tell some poor proles they need to suffer more

How door is welfare not undermining the base. Who owns that food that gets distributed.

So what's your plan to enact socialism?

The problem is that you are a threat to no one while you are waiting for that revolution.
Sure, Syriza betrayed the Greeks, etc. But what do you propose instead, except that poor people should starve and become homeless so they will revolt ?
(Pro-tip : they won't revolt, they will just get caught stealing something and end up in prison)