Real organizing for the next 4 years

Are you always like this?

American capitalism worked pretty well for about 20/25 years before that for most people, but I doubt you won't find Wolff finding examples from before that about how shitty capitalism is.

That's why he's heterodox and you should be too. Try reading for a change: digamo.free.fr/wolffresnick12.pdf

WEW

…that's not what he's implying dingus.

As are modern day tankies.

Good luck that m8

what a man. has something to say on everything, answers on every question and god, they are short and on point too. wew. what a lad.

Did you do actual statistics before you started memeing?

250k annual income (household!) is enough to be within 1%. That is possible without capital for professionals, especially if two members of family work.

And this changes what, exactly? How does the fact that the big capitalists are the 0,1% and not the 1% change what he is saying?

Just another point that proves that his analysis is flawed (non-Marxist).

Core problem in this specific article: Marxism specifically states that personal decisions are irrelevant.

Are you for real? And here I thought tankies being autistic was a meme.

So if the bourgeoisie are slaves to the system just like the proles, does that mean you won't hang them from the lampposts when the revolution comes?
Pretty much every socialist movement worth its salt has painted the bourgeoisie as the antagonist, the enemy. Lenin did, Papa Joe did, and Wolff does too.

Whatever happens to Bourgeoisie is irrelevant.

This means that we should create a different system.

Both Lenin and Uncle Joe were going not after Bourgeoisie, but after system that created Bourgeoisie.

On the other hand we see Wolff here say that it is decisions that are wrong. Not the system that forces people make those decisioins.

Moreover, his solution - cooperatives - does not change the underlying system in the least. It doesn't even presuppose wealth redistribution. It literally begins and ends with organizing workers into crews.

...

didn't mean to greentext the last part. The correct amount is $434,682

We've tried that and it didn't work either

You sound like someone who has started, ran or belonged to 0 (zero) successful organizations. This is the mindset of a little kid.

Statistically, American capitalism worked better before the 70s (when the American labor shortage ended). It was by no means perfect before, but the 70s are when it really started falling apart.

No, you fucking moron, it's that the decisions made by people are influenced by a certain logic, and which capitalists become dominant depends on which ones stay the most in keeping with this logic, not that the decisions of capitalist don't matter.

No, the "1%" specifically refers to the bourgeoisie. It was originally singled out because that's the threshold at which people start earning more from capital investment than selling their labor.

He never implied that dipshit. Saying that the king wields extraordinary power isn't saying that we just need a good king.

China is Porky as fuck, retard.

Shit that failed and exists no longer.

Yeah, it would be much better if they organized themselves to go get shot for the chance to replace their boss with a government official.

Hopefully to your own head, tankie fuck.

Except they clearly did go after the bourgeoisie, as can be seen in almost any piece of Soviet propaganda ever.

Wolff has already said multiple times that the bourgeoisie act in accordance with the pressures of the capitalist system. This doesn't mean that the bourgeoisie aren't ultimately the people who make economic decisions just because their decisions follow a certain logic.

Unions weren't socialism either.

t. reddit """socialist"""

...

yes. Clearly, we must change the system without dealing with the people whose decisions fuel said system.

I agree with you, but co-op workers would be much more inclined to take up socialist ideals than "Gotta climb that corporate ladder" class cucks. It literally begins with organizing the workers into self managed crews who own and decide the direction of their work place. It ends with wherever the co-op workers decide to take it.

While I like Papa Wolff participating in bourgeois democracy is, and always will be, a mistake. Nothing meaningful can be achieved within the constraints of the American political system or indeed any political system under the control of capitalists.

It really must take some next-level contrarianism for a Tankie to defend the bourgeoisie, but I guess all principles go out the window once someone says something mean about Stalin-senpai.

...

whoops i forgot my crybaby flag

Are you one of the left-liberal imports from leddit or do you just not read theory?

yeah the terminology isn't great but that's a more a matter of trots rather than trotsky's analysis itself.

are all leftcoms the edgy kids of petit-bourgeois?

Measly concessions that are periodically aquiesced to, slowly rolled back and then reimplemented in slightly different form as a means of quashing any revolutionary potential are not at all meaningful.

nice bootstrap meme

the proletariat helps the proletariat, the ruling class doesn't want people helping themselves so divide them using idpol

I tought leftcoms knew their memes

I'm not a leftcom. I'm making fun of "only spontaneous revolution can happen" leftcoms

Dual power.

That is the most important strategy of all. Get out there giving food packages and cheap medicine to the homeless and poor, along with Socialist literature.

We need to build real ties in communities and HELP people in real material ways.

Fuck protests, Dual Power 100%

THIS
H
I
S

The proles and lumpenproles don't care about protests, they care about their own lives. If you help them and say you're doing it in the name of [ideology], they'll remember you–and it.

why not both

Make a bundle. Get some cheap asprin/ibuprofen. Make some sandwiches, a few cans of cheap soda/bottle of water put in a Socialist pamphlet that you get printed at a copier or office supply store. Go out and give them to the beggers and other struggling people you see.

Thats like $3-$4 per package and massive good will.

Wait, an organization was successful at revolution?

I hate to say it, but those aren't the people you need to be influencing. Most people are working and pursuing careers, and are very heavily invested in the system or trying to be (like buying a house). Those people tend to have calcified beliefs and are not going to be swayed by some soda, not that you'll ever have a chance to step in their place of employment anyway.

Hilarious because it was the SPD that enabled the Freikorps to crush the left in Germany.

Hm. That's before the taxes, IIRC. I did this calculations years ago and don't remember specifics.

Either way - still within the "labour income trumps income from investments". I.e. there is quite a bit of (non-managerial, specialist) Proletariat there. Investment income clearly begins to exceed what high-pay jobs could bring only for 0.1%

Wasn't it Liberalism and Fascism? And the whole story stinks with propaganda about Communists refusing to cooperate with SocDem to stop Hitler.

This bit needs clarification. It was SocDem who got labelled "social fascists" after multiple instances when they not only refused to cooperate with Communists against Fascists, but even used all available measures against Communists - while keeping Fascists safe.

We've tried both. Cooperating with SocDem is impossible. They see no difference between Left and Right, and Right gives better bribes.

No, it didn't work better. It worked just the same.

"Labor shortage" theory is nothing but justification of Capitalism - it could actually work, if we tweak a few things! Not to mention, infamous graph conveniently begins only after WWII - apparently, during Great Depression there was a labour shortage and nothing was "falling apart". Moreover, you need but to tweak a few things to get (pic #2) out of (pic #1). We have a working Trickle-Down Economy, people! All hail Scott Winship!

Capitalism never worked by itself. It was always a clusterfuck. The only short respite US Proletariat actually got is (pic #3) - and even that was a pittance. That's it.

This is your brain on idealism.

Think practical application, not dogmas. We are talking about Wolff. And what follows from Wolff's usual Capitalist apologia is that decisions taken were simply wrong. That Capitalists had the option of making different decisions.

Read the goddamn quote again:

See? 1% is suddenly a "major shareholder" - which is false - and it is solely responsible for everything. Not the system! System is okay. We just need to explain to those rich folks what they did wrong!

The problem, as you had correctly remembered: is that doing "right things" will swiftly turn rich folks into poor folks. Consequently, any attempts to explain or replace decision-makers are doomed. The real problem is not the decisions, but the system that enforces a certain standard of decision-making - which is basic Marxism.

But does Wolff say it? No. Everything originates from decisions, not the system that enforces the decisions.

Moreover, he goes on to claim some nonsense about "economy of democratized, cooperatively organized enterprises" that should solve everything. Except the logic of free market is still the same. Except control over capital is still the same. Except control over state is still the same.

Such changes. Much wow.

Exactly. And my estimate is that it begins at 0.1%, not 1%.

Yes, he did. He clearly stated that decision-makers were responsible for everything.

Where is Wolff's economy, autistic child? Where is it? The point is that I don't see it's growth.

Democracy "has failed" multiple times, Einstein.

Strawman is your only resort, I take it.

|
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Do you take any meds to combat this raging autism of yours?

He didn't say it here.

Nope. But unions did not present themselves as such. Moreover, unions explicitly existed to deal with the Capitalists. What will co-ops do?

Already started a group in the middle of nowhere here. I doubt it'll ever be anyone but me, but here I am.

We're hitting autism levels that shouldn't even be possible

Trump's complete inability to deal with that would usher in some real left shit

If Hillary got elected, it would've been the same.

I don't think that was the point he was getting at.

Judging by the picture that lumps together Stalin and Obama, I would say there wasn't much thinking involved.

My point is that we have Communism on the rise for a few years already - even if it was happening outside of US. Elections didn't change the processes that were - and still are - going on, be it in US or otherwise.

...

marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm#p4

Read it in context and you'll get it

Trump supporters have much less realistic expectations than Hillary supporters had. It is their disappointment that's going to give us our chance.

While I can only applaud someone on the left for finally doing something, it's kinda sad it took the election of Trump to spur yous on. I mean if the left gives primacy to the economic, that they act now suggests they were happy under Obama./ Either that or social policy is a concern of Wolff too and that is waht spurred him into action. I just hope this movement seeks to re-educated the liberals and put them to good work, instead of allying with them. Cause they'll sell you out. Then both left/pol/ and Holla Forums loses.

Its not for them directly, its about building a goodwill presence in the community. Socialist groups should do social work.

Look at how much power religious sects get through just their manipulative charity operations. The Salvation (starvation) army is a good example of a global empire built on manipulation of their charity image and the mass goodwill they have from it

I'd point out why you're wrong, but it's pointless.

You don't watch his videos. You'll never watch his videos. You've made it clear that you have no intent to ever watch any of his videos. What's important to you is that he said mean things about Stalin-senpai and so you'll autistically spam all of his threads because seeing him mentioned makes you upset which gives you an asthma attack and interferes with the large backlog of little girl chinese cartoons you've still got to watch.

The reason why people can mobilize effectively in this modern era when they could not in decades past is solely due to the rise of smartphones, social media, and mass communication.

Expect to see the elite of the world desire greater constraints on all three of those muh privileges over the next coming decades, leading to the first stages of Orwell's nightmare becoming reality.

Just because I prefer reading books, while you are incapable of it, doesn't mean I'm incapable of watching.

Moreover, it is extremely annoying to refer to videos - you can't quote properly anything. But you don't care about, it do you? You don't do quoting, and what is important for you are not the words, but general impression you get.

Last video, IIRC. Wolff uses Corbyn and Labour party as an example: they want to make it a law that workers can buy out enterprise that failed - and turn it into co-op - while the government has to provide a loan for workers.

This is presented as a solution. And it fits Wolff's Class Theory to the letter: everything is done by the workers.

Except exploitation - necessity to pay for the Capital - remains. It doesn't go anywhere. Only instead of Capitalist workers are paying to the government. And government then pays to the Capitalists - bonds, or whatever they are called - because where else would it get money to give to workers?

A perfect evolution of Capitalism: financial capital permeates the whole of society. Ultimate blending of State and Capital. And this is something Socialists are supposed to work towards - according to Wolff.

Why do you never actually respond to my points? Beyond usual ad hominem and memes, that is.

Do you consider thinking to be an autism?

there is a form of thinking called autistic thinking and it has fuck all to do with the neurodevelopmental disorder

you should probably do basic research on your shit analogies before you make them

First of all, he has books as well, which were already provided for you in this thread
digamo.free.fr/wolffresnick12.pdf

Second of all, Wolff has said several times just that fact, that goverment bonds are just a way for capitalists to make money off of the goverment, he advocates for using taxes instead.

Third of all, if workers own the means production, whether they have to pay back a simple loan or not, they are not being exploited. They own the surplus, the full fruit of their labors, and they can do with it as they please. In a scenario where this occurs throughout the production process, when capital is being purchased, it is being purchased from other workers.

I doubt it.

I bet you didn't even read those books. If you don't have the patience to watch a video, you certainly don't have the patience to read a books.

No, it's an immediate goal to work towards. Wolff never implied that this was proper end state. In fact, he's advocated a planned system.

Now, he seems to think cooperatives will simply do this on their own, and I'll straight up admit this is a big weakness in his theory, but you've certainly never brought this point up. Probably because you just read the cliff notes or reviews or whatever.

I read the books, and quoted them extensively, and even made a fucking file with the books for those who can't find it themselves.

My point is that the sprudo-poster did not read them (or didn't understand them if he read).

For what? I'm talking about specific example: Labour party co-ops.

No. You are wrong.

Except they need to own the Capital. Means of Production.

His Class Theory is the quintessence of his flawed methodology.

Where'd you find the quotes? Is there some sort of tankie cliff notes floating around somewhere?

Except you don't have a quote, only your impression of what you remembered. Your interpretation.

Consequence of listening.

He advocated everything.

He always thought that. Except there is no need to do anything. Co-op is already Communism according to him. Even if you have to pay crippling amount of interest - that's okay. You are no longer being exploited.

And the usual ad hominem.

Why do I even bother?

I have no idea what that even means.

Thanks for the book, comrade.

And what exactly did you quote, I didn't see anything from this thread?

In general. He blames the financial system and its relation to government bonds to the debt crisis of Puerto Rico and other places. The labour party co-op platform is a policy about getting workers to own the means of production, how it's paid for wasn't discussed and will probably come from taxes.

Dead labor + Living Labor = Value
Value - Costs = Surplus
Capitalists get the surplus by exploiting the workers. They are not being exploited when they own the surplus.

Yes? How do you think they own the surplus? It's being owning the means of production.

It's what he says in his talks and radio program.

He specifically said a planned system,

I don't think so.

Even if this is what he believes, it doesn't really matter. His personal beliefs about what communism is isn't why people watch his videos. He really doesn't talk about communism all that much.

You really shouldn't bother. Fuck off back to /marx/ or whatever other tankie hole you crawled out of.

A shortened summary of a book, infamously used by students to cheat on book reports.

Why would workers, now the tax base, the voters and the controllers of the lobbyists, allow the government or banks to charge obscenely high interest rates?

Not in this thread. We had threads about Wolff before. There was an argument about Wolff's Class Theory not being Marxist, so I had to quote his view on "Capitalism" and his definition of "Socialism/Communism" - scattered through several pages. Kolkhozs being Communist was one of the examples of his definite revisionism.

There also was Wolff's video Socialism for Dummies, which I quoted - with extreme annoyance - to prove that he is a liar, but that's hardly it.

Money still has to come from somewhere and Proletariat by definition does not have enough money to pay for Capital.

You are ignoring the fact that workers still have an obligation to pay for Capital - an inseparable part of getting surplus. They do not "own" this surplus fully.

What are you even talking about?

AND OTHER THINGS. The whole point is that he doesn't have a specific solution beyond "let's make a party" and "let's make co-ops". He mentions a lot of things as possible.

Read the book, FFS. That's his methodology - and it fits to the letter with everything he talks about. "Overdetermination" bullshit and the rest.

Goalposts. Put them back.

We are talking about Wolff's "solution". It's not a solution. Wolff being entertaining - or not - has nothing to do with it.

I'm almost certain this is a joke, but you never know - those are the Internets. And I've been accused of being insufficiently ironic in this very thread already.

NOVEMBER ECONOMIC UPDATE POSTED NOVEMBER ECONOMIC UPDATE POSTED NOVEMBER ECONOMIC UPDATE POSTED

youtu.be/Y0IwIOUg_Cs

Yeah, and they can use the state to take that money, which should have been theirs to begin with.

What? They are paying other workers! Not to mention that once they DO finish paying, its all theirs! Are you implying that because people have to pay for something they don't own that thing?

I was trying to type "it's by owning the means of production."

I'm talking about the system wolff is arguing for in the near term, if that wasn't clear.

Whatever, we don't want you anyway.

Part of the problem is that you are still thinking in the logic of markets. Part of seizing the means of reproduction is creating such conditions that their forcible repossession from the Capitalist class becomes irreversible.

Moreover, it's also the digitization of parts to the point of the fact that the enforcement of privatization becomes prohibitive.

Technology that destroys the ability of power to privatize means of production.

Cue Cody Wilson and 3d printed gun parts:

youtube.com/watch?v=vQjCzvav5_Q

You cannot be a tankie anymore.

bump

I'm not even going to comment that.

Weren't groundbreaking even in 1980s.

Come back when you get 3d Printer for $1000 or less that can print smartphone and solar power cell out of sand and scrap metal, clothes and hamburger out of wooden pulp - all within one hour.

Yes, I can. You still don't have tech necessary for Communism. And even when you get one - which is not any time soon - you'll have to fight tooth and nail against Capitalists to be able to use it.

You still have no option but to go tankie, if you want to be Socialist.

It's called Revolution.

What other workers? Is this some Real Socialism where everyone is hiring at least three workers?

This is your brain of Wolffism.

Tell me, if nothing stops workers RIGHT NOW from saving enough money and buying factory, how could there be any exploitation?

No. But I imply that you had gone full retard. You think that rich will simply roll over and die because workers kindly asked them to. You think that poor are obligated to pay to the rich. You think that Bourgeois morale is absolute.

See above. Nobody is going to let you use State to take everything from the rich, even if you manage to get someone elected.

lmao good luck with that in the first world

The workers who produced the capital, numbskulls

What? Do you not understand what exploitation is? So long as there is a capitalist there is exploitation.

But even taking your question seriously, the answer is that workers need to pay for shit to survive, so long as there are those willing to work for nothing more than that, saving up that much will be impossible.

No, I think getting to that point will take a lot of work and implicit threats. But no, I do not think they are obligated, I just think its the easiest way to go about this.

There's not much they can do to stop a president who has control over the intelligence complex

My point exactly.

They don't own it, Einstein.

Yes. Unfortunately, you don't, if you think that loans are "fair".

Which is why paying for Capital is impossible for workers under Bourgeois system. Workers of Corbyn/Wolff co-ops will be paying interest their whole life.

For you.

Have you ever heard about Salvador Guillermo Allende Gossens?

Bump

lol did that tankie tripfag shit up another thread with his autism?

We need to wordfilter it to "stuff I can't argue against".

if everyone who reads your posts thinks you have autism, maybe they aren't the problem

Was a typo, but still works in this context :^)

Pic related, sauce:
3ders.org/articles/20150629-paper-thin-3d-printed-solar-cells-to-provide-affordable-electricity-for-unlit-rural-areas.html
Second point
Go down to your local hackerspace and you will find people doing exactly that. There are literally classes on how to build your own reprap printer

You have a slight problem here;
law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/492/1/2308956/
UNITED STEEL WORKERS OF AMERICA, LOCAL NO. 1330 et al., Plaintiffs,
v.
UNITED STATES STEEL CORPORATION, Defendant.
The union sued to buy the steel mill since the company was closing it due to it being obsolete; union wanted to use the pension fund to modernize it and keep people employed. The case went to the Supreme Court. The union lost upon reversal. There is legal precedent to protect private property in the US regardless of its relative market worth, and whether or not there was a binding contract or laws like promissory estoppel that would protect workers from employers like it protects tenants from landlords.

Cargo cultists finally lost it.

And you are missing the point: I specifically told you that you need to process everything yourself.

You still need major industry - capital intensive industry - to supply you with the "raw" (processed) materials. Printing is just the final step. It's like assembling PC out of components and thinking that you somehow made it all yourself without any industry.

Also, I see neither microchips, nor display, nor accumulators. All has to be bought.

It can't print anything beyond knick-knacks if it costs $1000. Even cheapest machine shop costs over $20k.

Maybe they are memeing. Ever thought of that?

I wouldn't be too sure

I remain unconvinced.

It's ok bby, they're just jealous of you cuz you're special

How long are you going to stay on "ad hominem" stage of butthurt?