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Pure discussion, brilliantly creative and sometimes hilariously crude memes, happening threads where we all sit and drink waiting for the fires to begin, the brotherhood we feel on an internet forum where there is no identity. These are all things that make Holla Forums great. The goal of this thread is to demonstrate that over the past year and a half some kind of foreign influence has successfully polluted and co-opted the key behind all of these great aspects of Holla Forums, mainly lack of bias.
The normal conversation between two men or a group thereof can be genuine, but more often than not there are many things at play when discussing ideas. One man wants to look smart and reaches too far, the others fail to correct him because they don't want to hurt his feelings. Another man knows nothing about the subject but he refuses to cease blathering, the others fail to correct him because he is bigger than them and prone to bouts of violence. Another man makes a brilliantly crafted argument blowing the others out of the water in every regard, but the they ignore him because they don't like him for one reason or another. These are just a few examples of things that pervert every day discussion. Similar events take place every day in every town or city, and the effect is clear. Inefficiencies, tolerated discrepancies, and acceptance of lies where there should be truth.
Internet discussion is a very different story. One no longer becomes affected by the biases of personal interaction and is free to propose any idea for the sake of debate without fear of reprisal by friends, family, or community. The internet however has it's own form of bias on forums where everybody is assigned an identity. Often the agents of a discussion are more worried about their reputation in their virtual community than seeking out the truth, or perhaps they don't want to get banned for wrongthink. They would rather everybody look at them as X, or think of them as Y, so they do not tell their peers they are morons when they are morons, or they say what they think is expected of them rather than what is true. The result is the same as with personal discussion Inefficiencies, tolerated discrepancies, and acceptance of lies where there should be truth.
Forms of completely anonymous discussion are completely free from any of the things that might result in lies elsewhere. Nobody cares who anybody else is, what they have done in the past, what they look like or walk like, how tall they are, nobody is worried about what the community will think of them if they say something stupid, or if they say something that is "extreme" but absolutely true. Apply this to political or scientific discussion and you have a truth seeking machine the likes of which the world has never been able to attain before.
The Death of Discussion
Other urls found in this thread:
In the past year and a half perhaps, a meme has permeated every fathom of Holla Forums that is totally poisonous and contrary to everything which makes Holla Forums great. It has always lingered but was never so widely used, now it is in every thread.The shill meme. While in many cases of anonymous internet discussion, calling somebody a shill might be accurate. Or it might not. It is not something that can be proven or disprove. This completely subversive meme has destroyed much of the legitimate discussion of people, events, and ideas in the only way one can subvert anonymous online discussion. By injecting false bias. By accusing another user of being a shill, one claims that he is biased and that his discussion isn't legitimate and thus not worth addressing at all. No matter what he says, how true it might be, is completely invalid because he is shill X. Jew, Stormfront, TRS, CIA, the list goes on and on for what kind of shill another user is, regardless of how unprovable and unreasonable this act is. Legitimate discussion of certain topics is completely subverted by this meme, because as soon as you mention subject X you are shill Y.
The result of this is that every white nationalist face is a shill of some kind and everybody who defends him is a shill. The entire movement has been and always will be controlled opposition. The white race is completely doomed for eternity, even if Hitler himself rose from the grave he too would not escape these accusations. The result is a confused mess of subversive messages about every group that has ever existed and serves only to destroy our people, specifically the only ones who are trying to save it.
My goal is not to say that this place is dead and that we should abandon it. My goal raise awareness of the methods by which the enemies are fighting us and how they are using us to do their own bidding. For decades we have torn eachother apart by the very same methods, back then the enemy would falsify accusations of Jewishness or fabricate events, to popularize the idea they would use the postal service and mark their trash with false return addresses. This was so that you thought X was blaspheming Y when really it was the enemy sowing descent. Now they use the internet. Realize this and fight it.
Well, at least you're willing to admit the truth.
You're correct and you're about to be called a shill/Jew by about half a dozen anons.
This part though:
wut
Shit. I just meant to copy the last sentence of the greentext.
I am arguing that if Hitler came back to life he would be called a Jewish shill for having brown hair, or a fag because of his funny mustache.
I smell TRSIDF. It's hard shilling here isn't it, faggot? Good. It's going to keep getting harder.
You sound a fucking spoiled bitch with psychological issues, engaging in a bit of projection over some kind of internal conflict or guilt feelings. Either you don't think you're "white enough", and its exhausting you trying to shill the various online communities you post in toward some kind of acceptance of you, or you're only partially comitted to the values of the communities you're taking part in. Maybe racism still scares you, maybe if your family knew you were a "notsee" they'd disinherit you. Whatever it is, you're stuggling because you don't fit somehow. Stop being a fucking child about it, and accept that you aren't going to have everything turn up roses in the end. Far better people have suffered far worse than you in this world; stop running around like you're exempt from suffering.
< FACE TO BLOODSHED YOU LITTLE CUNT
TL;DR: don't punch to the right, is that what you're saying?
Firstly, there aren't many people to my right. Second, instead of trying to mask who you're trying to defend, just say you think X has gotten a raw deal. Third, places like TRS are now proven to be a controlled party intent of moving closer to a cuckservative standpoint, jews are openly attempting to coopt right wing thought with a 'big tent' strategy using that awful crowdfunding site.
Shit like: "we would claim Hitler is controlled opposition" is just a weak strawman. I remember threads like this as far back as cuck/pol/ and the response then was the same as now: People like WLP or GLR aren't demonized by the majority of us. Want to know why they're different from Spencer or TRS?
They didn't cozy up to people that obviously want to subvert their interests.
They didn't lie to their followers.
They didn't get invested in petty squabbles with one another.
They didn't accept fags or sexual impropriety.
They saw the movements they lead as vehicles for the ideal of preserving our race, culture, and people.
They did not see those ideals as 'selling points' or profit driven.
They did it because it was the right thing to do.
Matthew Heimbach doesn't get attacked by most of us.
Nordfront doesn't get attacked by most of us.
There's a huge number of pro-white people and movements that don't get the vitriol others receive: they aren't bickering high school girls trying to get popular by 'beefing' or saying what people want so they can lead them in another direction. Anything tainted (mostly by that faggot Paul Gottfried it seems) must be expelled, anything possibly just a bit different or mostly aligned would be nice to have closer to us, but otherwise is left alone. I don't even think a lot of us realize why certain groups are targeted, but when you're so immersed and practiced in spotting something, it becomes instinctual.
Until that changes, I have no idea why you think your overly verbose sentiment solves anything. Instead of going after us for rightly calling these people out, why not honestly consider why they're being derided?
The pretensions of your posts are stupid because you try to dress it up as a plea to reason while completely ignoring the motivations of the people you're pleading to. It's a naked manipulation tactic that can't hide the intent nor the condescending, pseudo intellectual tone.
State your business or fuck off
I suspect this is the first of many hollow replies filled with accusations of things that I can not possibly disprove in this forum. The following is the obligatory Holla Forums response now.
I smell IDF, SPLC, CIA, ETC…
You sound like a Jew trying to psychoanalyze. Kill yourself.
((())) goes in all fields
Absolutely not. Do punch to the right. I am saying that the shill meme is subversive to this goal and every other goal that we have.
I don't want this to devolve into another discussion about a certain group. My point is you claim to have proof of your assertion. The productive procedure would be for you to make your argument and for me to judge your facts and agree or make my own argument. Now according to the shill meme, it is for you to make your argument and for me to argue that you are some kind of shill. This is high retardation.
He absolutely does.
Fair enough, but most of us are not Swedish and know or care very little about Nordfront.
I am going after the idea that injecting bias into anonymous discussion is productive. Why group X is being derided is not relevant in this thread.
Pure discussion is gay and you're gay if you like it. Pure discussion is intellectual masturbation with zero intent to turn your discussion into reality. Eat a bag of dicks.
Hollow post number 2/?
It would have actually been more productive to call me a shill.
Shills exist, though not everyone who posts bullshit is a shill. The reason you don't address the arguments of shills is because they don't discuss in good faith - they are trying to manipulate you and others and/or derail the real discussion at hand. Calling shill is a two-edged sword because without proof and evidence and good propaganda you will just get into, 'nu-uh, HE'S the shill!' bullshit.
If you want to deal with the actual shills and keep the boards cleaner, then follow these steps:
If you want to go the extra-mile for board hygiene, make a thread about catching shill arguments, share and teach people how to catch shill bullshit both active shilling and, 'ur a shill,' shilling, and update the shill arguments via true discussion. Inoculate people against the shilling, and you can simply learn to ignore the faggots when they appear.
Finally, someone said it user. Good work.
So snarky xDDD if imkikey is to rule with an iron fist, he best do it right and ban all signs of plebbitors.
Yawn, got tired of this back before the first exodus. Do you people ever change up your playbook?
This. I would also add that it is important to realize the grave difference in discussing character and ideas. When discussing character it is far, far easier to inject false bias, to fabricate events, and to make unprovable assertions. This area is one where your guard should be up, everything should be subject to ridicule. The environment we have now is such that very little is subject to ridicule
If you are discussing an idea, the opportunity for subversion is very different. It is in logical fallacy, drawing false conclusions, misrepresentation of facts, etc. The point is that subverting an idea is often far easier to identify and takes far more effort to manufacture.
My fear is that we are devolving into a fucking right wing gossip forum the likes of the National Enquirer. It is far easier to discuss character than ideas and their implications.
No, you're a shill.
Totally right, we should open to gates so bassed jews and nigs can help us regain our nations, actually not that (we don't want to exclude anyone)… actually, so they can help us support le god emporer!
Calling Heimbach a larper isn't hatred. Stop pretending you want a discussion if you just try to weaken the needed defenses against subversion, this is how it happens, folks.
Just because you post the man over and over doesn't mean you're trustworthy. As the other post said, the people who aren't demonized on here aren't under the umbrella of eceleb circlejerks that only want to make themselves popular while constantly cucking out and being intimately involved in race mixing, jewry, etc. on a much more frequent scale than the general population, much less the right wing.
Also, if you make an accusation (Holla Forums is mean to race mixing jews and that's bad) PROVIDE EVIDENCE, it's not hard. The people that are targeted are targeted because their ideals and supposed character are completely opposite while they backpedal on every reason I would like them at all.
You're defending TRS, it's pretty fucking obvious
It's been this way for longer than that. But it's a catch 22. On the one hand, anons often get extremely trigger happy with shilling accusations to the point of debate being just two camps calling each other shills. On the other, the place really is crawling with shills and they are often quite obvious. Many threads have been made in the past about this, how perhaps the greatest achievement of the shills has been to make "you're a shill" the go-to argument on Holla Forums.
The solution is generally to always outline your argument even if you think you're facing a shill. Otherwise you just end up with manufactured or broken consensus with a wall of shill/opposition arguments with only shilling accusations in response.
Many people on here do not accept that someone can have the same goals as them (the survival of our race) but disagree with them on something else. They think that disagreement on any point shows that you are a shill. This makes it impossible to have a constructive debate.
Another problem is that anons will accept accusations on evidence that is far too weak, especially for people they already dislike.
No-one ever says this; don't strawman positions.
Identifying shills is pretty simple. It's all about honesty.
If the user you're talking to is intellectually honest, he's not a shill.
If the user you're talking to is intellectually dishonest, keeps switching goalposts, keeps changing his positions, makes stuff up, strawmans your positions etc then the likelihood of him being a shill is pretty high. Even more so if he does all this while simultaneously calling honest anons in the thread shills, kikes…
TRS has already begun to shift that way, Spencer wants an alliance with (((based jews)))
Plenty of rightly maligned groups say that crap, that's why they're maligned.
What I find tiresome about Holla Forums is how super emotional and angry and on edge everyone is all the time, and how even the shittiest thread can get hundreds of replies because people are just having some kind of meltdown.
I think you fail to realise the tumultuous and warlike state of the Holla Forumsacks mind
Telling them not to point out shills is like telling an army not to he wary of enemyspies.
But, I digress, as you do have some point there, but shill-calling is not a mere meme, there are shills, and they can be spotted.
Tldr, meme wisely, my friend
Sorry bout my shitty formatting
I didn't feel like turning on my ancient vista pc and teathering my phone again tonight.
>TRS has already begun to shift that way, Spencer wants an alliance with (((based jews)))
Show me where.
By that logic Hitler wanted an alliance with the Jews
on old Holla Forums it was used quite often.
we are like 3000 thousand people here.
i don't say we can't or won't make a difference, but there are greater forces at work here, and unless most normies wake up, and it's precisely what they are doing, we are doomed anyway.
but even if we were doomed, you can be doomed and still retain your dignity.
if anything if there is something i miss, it's the funny stuff, the fat shaming fridays,and all the stuff like that.
i don't understand why, of all the board that spun off full/pol/ there isn't one for that kind of stuff.
I can't read the first link because it is behind a paywall.
When have TRS ever said that Jews should remain in the US or be allies?
>armchair (((psychology))) with complete diagnosis based on 891 written words
(checked)
Frankly, I think you're overestimating the efficacy of what you call "the shill meme." I've gotten called a shill more times than I can count in my years on chans, usually by actual shills. It hasn't adversely affected my contributions or net gain of knowledge whatsoever. Shills are obvious as hell to spot for anyone who's been here for a few years and has a greater than lukewarm IQ. That's precisely why it's better to just disengage and ignore one when you spot it and instead focus on those anons who are involved in legitimate discussion. By making a shill irrelevant you take away any hope of it achieving its goal. The quality of discussion here would greatly improve if more anons simply just filtered and reported instead of taking the bait and giving shills (you)s,
this.
the term shill has become as used as "faggot
". i don't even know if it's shills calling other people shills, though i think that mostly it's due to anons who think their post/opinion 'wins' if they call the other party shills.
not saying there aren't actual shills, but at the same time people call anyone who disagrees with them shills nowadays.
OP is a faggot shill
You're totally right. It's the reason I barely come to Holla Forums anymore, virtually every thread is shit up with people going "FUCK OFF KIKE SHILL" back and forth ad infinitum. Virtually no serious discussion anymore, it's like a kids playground.
Trying too hard, the post. The user you are replying to didn't say any of that. To sum it up in a really simple way his point is don't shut down discussion by declaring everything out of the circle jerk as shilling or dis info. Use your words to dismantle them and their arguments.
I am glad the op brought this up, I have been meaning to myself. Ever since halfcuck invaded again the quality of posting has gone down and the amount of people posting quick one line "You're a shill" or "JUST" followed by a reddit meme has gone up dramatically. 4cucks and r/thedonald scum have been shitting the board up no end, we need to make them either adapt or leave.
And once you take away their one liners and make them explain themselves it becomes really easy to spot the nigger.
Good post.
That is true but it's also true that actual shills call others shills almost by default. It's how they camouflage themselves. "If I call someone a shill, legit anons will think the shill can't be me" that sort of thing.
There are already people who say Hitler was a shill. They say that he purposefully lost WW2, because he was paid to by the jews, who funded him to start a war, and set back white nationalism.
I haven't gone far down that hole, but I'm sure someone else here has.
When Mike Peinovich married a jew and the whole 'movement' turned into a civic nationalist fag parade.
When their e-celeb buddies have been outed as gay, jewish, or both.
We've had so many threads on this that it shouldn't be a contentious issue.
That you want to fall back into the distraction technique just because you're butthurt that you like something other people don't is retarded. Energy goes to investigation, discussion, or insightful commentary instead of engaging in time wasting battles with shills or trolls.
Read the rest of the thread, I'm referring what the op began talking about. When character directly contradicts stated ideology, it becomes obvious the people involved are not being truthful, either to themselves or others. Calling groups that support a drift to moderation, discarding anti-semitism or racism, or do not practice what they preach is practical, not wrong.
My original point was addressing this:
Understand an argument before telling others to and don't try to make a point while being a condescending faggot. I'm not contesting that people shouldn't dismiss everyone based on their opinion, everyone should be trying to change someone's mind by spreading truth. What I am saying is that calling obvious well-poisoners, money motivated hobbyists, and jews what they are shouldn't be a problem.
OP doesn't seem to understand the two issues are separate, the fact he combined the two shows how many folks who legitimately care can be accidentally spreading a disease with a cure.
There is nothing wrong with brown hair, and nobody would call someone a jew who writes a whole antisemitic book. He would just btfo everybody in no time. Eventually polacks would call him a faggot for not wanting to kill all niggers but just leave them alone on stoneage level.
Are you slow in the head?protip insulting others is a part of discussion on ib's
The reason "don't punch to the right" is ridiculed isn't because doing so is needed, but because there's nothing to the right of Holla Forums.
Anyone going after Heimbach is either justifiably paranoid, or genuinely a shill. He's a bit odd but nothing about him seems off and it's probably because he's running a genuine grassroots movement. TRSodomites were proven to be controlled op run by a bunch of subversives who were actively trying to make Holla Forums into their bottom bitch and drive out "the weirdos". Calling this place stormfront hasn't been much of a thing since a couple years ago when it was a part of the shill handbook. Spencer has at least one degree of seperation between himself and Dugin and if you don't know why that's not alright then just give him a quick look up. Any others follow the same rules of ecelebs, they're playing a new market either because they want the money to squeeze out of the rubes or because it's at the behest of some organization who's paying them and letting keep whatever shekels they make off the rubes. Leaders, structured systems, allow shills to poison the well and that doesn't mean they aren't useful but it does mean that whenever they show up we have to be on our guard. But you've forgotten something very important about why the level of discussion has dropped.
IT'S SUMMER
Summer is the death of discussion. Everything goes to shit once the schools are out and we still have another few months. Once the retards are forced back into their pens things get better but it takes time.
So basically what im getting here is, that if someone screams shill they should atleast have proof to back up their claims?
Well you wont get it here Holla Forums has also become reddit. it only takes 20 people to turn something in a shitfest, small shill operations work better than large scale ones. shareblue, and MAT now know this, but the latter is mostly purged on their discord by now.
/thread
Godspeed, user.
Perfect.
That didn't change their actual stance on the Jews, and they didn't become civic nationalists. Stop spreading misinformation
We want information, there is nothing left to discuss.
The actual manner in which our enemies operate IS starting pointless fights over nothing and arguing over nothing to prevent discussion. Endlessly calling shill is part of this tactic.
You are certainly a foreigner and don't belong here. There is no such thing as "racism." It's an enemy term that we don't use. Not only that, but you types always have off formatting and generally just weird shit in your posts.
Here is a suggestion for you ebin types: stop shitting up my board and posting generic Third Reich shit to try to fit in before I locate you and your employers. If you were pro-Holla Forums, you wouldn't shit up the board.
You realize that this shit is eventually going to have consequences, also, I hope.
Someone needs to post the webm of the daily shoah saying there is room for jews within the movement because if not they would have to go too.
I feel especially betrayed by them because I defended them for days. In general, I have a great amount of positive views about pro-white sites or shows, but anyone related to Paul Gottfried needs to be Long Knifed.
Faggots like you are ruining the board, along with deliberately terrible moderation. Everytime anyone posts a well thought out or informative thread it gets anchored, and god help you if you try to post about self-improvement or learning anything. Meanwhile, obvious clickbait bullshit gets hundreds of replies and stays up of hours, if not days, because nobody gives a shit about discussing things or even informing and educating others, they just want to watch "based X btfo" people and circlejerk about how right they are about the world going to shit. I quit coming to Holla Forums for months at a time because of this kind of shit, and it's only gotten worse since Trump has been elected and the redditors arrived.