What does Holla Forums think of Ancient Rome?

Gavin Scott
Gavin Scott

What does Holla Forums think of Ancient Rome?

Other urls found in this thread:

soundcloud.com/fallofromepodcast
marxist.com/class-struggles-roman-republic-one.htm
therealtalk.org
mega.nz/#F!DpAz2IgQ!nW7bPNnpJFk5CAV3ypiaHw
youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Cooper Evans
Cooper Evans

Unless you were insanely rich it was generally p. shitty

Charles Cook
Charles Cook

Imperialist slavers. Frankish pride worldwide.

Kevin Perez
Kevin Perez

they made cool swords

Jeremiah Anderson
Jeremiah Anderson

I remember someone here made a very good post explaining the fall of the Roman Empire in historical materialist terms, once. Does anyone have it, by any chance?

Nathan Sullivan
Nathan Sullivan

I'd like to see this

Juan Cooper
Juan Cooper

In the last Rome thread?

Alexander Bailey
Alexander Bailey

No, it was in a thread on some shit that Sargon of Akkad said about America being like Rome.

Ryder Butler
Ryder Butler

Fuck, I can't remember if I posted that one or not. I remember writing a long post about the fall of Rome and someone replied to it pointing out some mistakes and I didn't get the chance to reply before it got pushed off the board.

Grayson Parker
Grayson Parker

Is it possible to care about roman history without being a massive white supremacist?

Angel Wood
Angel Wood

yes

Chase Gray
Chase Gray

Yeah dude, it's really interesting. There's lots of cool stuff there and classical literature has some really great stuff like Cicero and Marcus Aurelius.

Brody Robinson
Brody Robinson

Pretty cool. Had some great
A E S T H E T I C S

Leo Howard
Leo Howard

implying the romans were ever white

Stormniggers will claim "WE WUZ EMPERORS N SHEIT" yet forget how Itallians and Greeks were discriminated against in Western countries when they immigrated to them.

Ayden Cooper
Ayden Cooper

yes
basically remember them this

Jayden Price
Jayden Price

t. white supremecists

Adam Martin
Adam Martin

I think the American Empire can learn a lot from its inevitable collapse.

Luis Walker
Luis Walker

One of the last dominant slave societies, whose collapse created the conditions for the rise of feudal society in Europe

Blake Morris
Blake Morris

one of the last dominant slave societies
The Ottoman Empire stuck around until 1922.

Logan Mitchell
Logan Mitchell

one of

Camden Roberts
Camden Roberts

Shit
t. Hellaboo

Christopher Wood
Christopher Wood

Yes, half of it was brown anyway (by population as Western Europe was relatively sparsely populated at the time), the bits that did survive ie Byzantium were mostly Assyrian, Arab and Coptic. Are Armenians brown or white?

There was even one Arab emperor of the united Roman Empire ie Phillip, white supremacists should leave Rome the fuck alone given how Germanic raiders supplanted it in the West.

Christian Edwards
Christian Edwards

not saving your TL;DRs
rookie mistake

shouldn't you be more salty about the macedonians?

Mason Diaz
Mason Diaz

I can't hate both
besides Macedon was pretty Hellenistic

Brody Evans
Brody Evans

Ancient Rome had a police force, so stfu about police being a socialist institution.

Grayson Allen
Grayson Allen

so stfu about police being a socialist institution.

who the fuck said that

Chase Carter
Chase Carter

Been following a pretty good podcast about the fall of the Roman Empire.
soundcloud.com/fallofromepodcast

Chase Diaz
Chase Diaz

Did they fall because of fun and immigrants like /pol/ told me?

Zachary Thomas
Zachary Thomas

No and he actually addresses that meme.

Camden Ortiz
Camden Ortiz

Liberals. The guy you just replied to is probably a newfag, or just trolling/shitposting.

Leo Ramirez
Leo Ramirez

Rome fell because of the the class contradictions that drove its expansion eventually lead to such extreme political instability that it became unable to respond to any external threat while simultaneously becoming incapable of internal reform.

Jack Gutierrez
Jack Gutierrez

So the fall of the Roman empire just happens to support your worldview? Well that sure was lucky, wasn't it? It's not like trying to manage an empire that spans across an entire continent with nothing but guys on horseback would be difficult or anything, would it?

No, it's obviously just the class struggle, like you said.

Ryder Martinez
Ryder Martinez

Romans were Multiculturalists, so yes.

Adam Watson
Adam Watson

trying to manage an empire that spans across an entire continent with nothing but guys on horseback would be difficult or anything, would it?
Why does most ideology resolve itself into fairytale tier understandings of the world?

Anyway ,
marxist.com/class-struggles-roman-republic-one.htm

The creation of a legal framework to regulate the class struggle is by no means sufficient to guarantee a peaceful outcome. On the contrary, such an arrangement merely serves to delay the final conflict and to give it an even more violent and convulsive character in the end. The expectations of the masses are heightened and concentrated, and their aspirations are given ample scope to develop themselves. Thus, in modern times, the masses develop great illusions in their parliamentary representatives and the possibility of solving their most pressing problems by voting in elections. In the end, however, these hopes are dashed and the struggle takes place outside parliament in an even more violent manner than before – both on the side of the masses and on that of the propertied classes who do not cease to prepare illegal conspiracies and coups behind the backs of the democratic institutions. Though they swear by “democracy” in public, in reality the ruling class will only tolerate it to the degree that it does not threaten their power and muh privileges.

Where the contending classes have fought themselves to a standstill with no clear result, and where the struggle between the classes reaches a kind of state of unstable equilibrium, the state itself can rise above society and acquire a large degree of independence. The case of ancient Rome was no exception. In theory, the Roman Republic in historical times was “democratic”, in the sense that the citizens were the electorate and ultimate power resided in the popular Assembly, just as today everything is decided by free elections. In reality, however, the Republic was ruled by an oligarchy of wealthy aristocratic families that exercised a stranglehold over political power. The result of this contradiction was a lengthy period of class struggle that culminated in civil war, at the end of which the army had elevated itself above society and became the master of its destiny. One military adventurer competed with another for power. A typical example of this species was Gaius Julius Caesar. In modern times this phenomenon is known as Bonapartism, and in the ancient world it assumes the form of Caesarism.

In modern times we see the same phenomenon expressed in fascist and Bonapartist regimes. The state raises itself above society. The ruling class is compelled to hand power over to a military strong man, who, in order to protect them, concentrates all power into his hands. He is surrounded by a gang of thieves, corrupt politicians, careerists greedy for office and wealth, and assorted scum. Naturally, the latter expect to be well rewarded for services rendered, and nobody is in a position to question their acquisitions. The ruling class is still the owner of the means of production, but the state is no longer in its hands. In order to protect itself it has reluctantly to tolerate the impositions, thieving, insults and even the occasional kick from its Leader and his associates, to whom it is expected to sing praises from morning till night, while silently cursing under its breath.

Such a situation can only arise when the struggle between the classes reaches the point of deadlock, where no decisive victory can be won either by one side or the other. The ruling class is not able to continue to rule in the old way, and the proletariat is not able to bring about a revolutionary change. The history of the Roman Republic is an almost laboratory example of this assertion. In ancient Rome a ferocious class struggle ended precisely in the ruin of the contending classes and the rise of Caesarism, which finally ended in the Empire.

Carson Brown
Carson Brown

Fantastic aesthetics and culture but corrupt politics and failure to genocide the Alemanni.
A good inspiration, an awful model.

Isaac Rogers
Isaac Rogers

destroyed my culture by imposing their shit Christian bullshit

And Barbarian Paganism was the shit

Landon Peterson
Landon Peterson

Caring about history doesn't make you a white supremacist. Actually caring about Roman history would likely produce the opposite attitude.

tfw you get called a Nazi for having an interest in the history of WW2

William Reyes
William Reyes

When the empire was at its zenith it did not have a cavalry. It was not until AD 260 when Emperor Galienus commissioned the first mounted Roman soldiers. Guys walked on those roads.

Angel Davis
Angel Davis

And yes, class was a huge factor–the factor even–in the fall of the empire. In particular the rise of the highly productive peasantry and the aristocratic class that formed within the massive bureaucracy that grew out of the reforms of Caracalla were the driving force that led to the fragmentation of the Western Empire. The aristocrats had little use for the centralized empire which was increasingly incapable of protecting their interests, and there were never enough peasants to work the empire no matter how many barbarian tribes the Romans invited across the Danube and the Rhein.

Michael Myers
Michael Myers

tfw you get called a Nazi for having an interest in the history of WW2

It's even more fun when they find out that you are more interested in the Soviets than the Nazis.

Caleb Sanchez
Caleb Sanchez

That's not true. There were mounted roman soldiers but they were an extreme minority – most of their mounted forces came from client cities and cultures with a tradition of horse-riding and husbandry, as well as mercenaries. Still shit compared to just about everyone else though.

Luke Ward
Luke Ward

Romans were my ancestors, Ottoman Empire was the Third Rome
t. Turk

Austin Johnson
Austin Johnson

their mounted forces came from client cities and cultures with a tradition of horse-riding and husbandry

Those were auxillaries. They were not Romans but rather provincials who were organized to support the Roman legions. Provincials did not become Roman citizens until Caracalla issued the Antonine Constitution in AD 212, and until Galienus created a full-time cavalry forty-eight or so years later cavalry was still raised locally and in response to an immediate threat. In contrast, the cavalry, cataphract, and dragoon units that Galienus added to his comitatenses were permanent units that could move between provinces to respond quickly to threats that arose along the frontier.

Adam Davis
Adam Davis

Nothing has changed

Samuel Adams
Samuel Adams

I saved it, my dudes

"You want to know why the fall Roman Empire came about? Economics. Particularly, Romans "fixing" the contradictions of their political/economic system by expanding their borders.
During its Republican faze, Rome keeps expanding outward, and as it does it naturally takes the prime agricultural land from its former enemies. Theoretically, all that land is supposed to go into the Ager Publicus and be administered by the state for the benefit of all Romans. In reality, since the patricians are the ones that administer the AP, more frequently than not they sell the majority of it to their rich friends for sesterces on the dinarius. To make matters worse, instead of employing the plebeans on these latifundia, they import cheap slaves to work and administer the land for them.
The constant warfare takes its toll on the Republican-era legions. Essentially, you had to be independently wealthy enough to buy your own armor and weapons and equipment. You also had to stay on campaign until the war was over. These independent farmers would be bankrupted, their farms seized, and their families turned out into the streets. This happens to such a degree that Rome experiences a recruitment crisis, as they no longer have a sufficient population of these citizens to draw from to sustain their legions. Rebellions start popping off in Sicily and Southern Italy due to the unrelenting exploitation.
To put things into perspective, the average Roman laborer made a handful of sesterces a day and spent over half of it on food. Pliny comments on the real estate inflation in Southern Italy, with the price of a farm rising from 4000ses to 600,000ses.
So what's a patrician to do? You can't make more land, but you can steal it. Rome expands ever outward. Thanks to Marius's military innovations, the poor, jobless plebs can now join the army, all expenses paid. If they live to the end of their enlistment they get 40 acres and a mule out in the provinces, taken from the ager publicus–or at least, whatever is left once the patricians take their share :^). It works for a while. Rome becomes more powerful. The rich become richer. The poor have an avenue out of poverty. Everyone wins!
Except it does nothing to resolve the class/economic contradictions that are leading to the instability in the first place. Things will get so bad that Rome experiences over a century of almost constant civil war as the state completely loses the ability to keep its wealthier citizens in check. Proscriptions and tyranny become the rule of the day, and the whole thing nearly comes crashing down around their heads.
Then Julius comes along, and then his nephew Octavian. They too "fix" the situation, with their primary innovation being the consolidation of the majority of state power within their persons. Along with their monopoly on state authority, they also have the loyalty of the legions to back them up. By putting the resources of the empire into the hands of one person, the instability caused by the unruly aristocracy is ameliorated for a time since no one else could compete with the emperor.
Unfortunately, this doesn't unravel the societal contradictions, either, and the same forces that created the situation in the first place continue. Land and wealth become consolidated in fewer and fewer hands. Subsequent waves of crises diminish the power of the emperor. Eventually, local landowners become powerful enough to ignore compulsion by the state, and the Emperor(s) is too busy trying to keep things from flying apart to bring them into line. The Germans invade (among others), everyone is left to fend for themself, and over a thousand years of Roman power goes down the drain as the supports necessary to maintain the empire abandon it.
tl;dr, tyranny in Rome comes about as the wealthy grow beyond the ability for the state to control, and if anything Trump is Catiline rather than Caesar, and if he thinks Trump is going to save him from the barbarians at the gates he's going to be in for a very rude awakening."

Oliver Taylor
Oliver Taylor

going to start listening to it user. This guy isn't going to analys it from a neoliberal presepective is he?

Nathaniel Perez
Nathaniel Perez

it was my post

Wyatt Davis
Wyatt Davis

your culture
Are you a vampire?

Alexander Rivera
Alexander Rivera

It wasn't, I literally saved it to .txt because I wanted to share it on diaspora*

Jason Robinson
Jason Robinson

That's brilliant.

The OP should submit this to bunker mag

Cooper Parker
Cooper Parker

Germanic people were literally the niggers of the Roman age.

Liam White
Liam White

It literally was. That was what I wrote.

Thank you. I think I will expand it a bit and do just that.

Kayden Myers
Kayden Myers

Wow. What a relief we live in a modern civilized democratic country with freedoms. Right guys?

Ayden Ward
Ayden Ward

Oh, no shit. Misinterpreted. I took your post to be making fun of me saving my own shit.
You are a good writer of words, sir

Jayden Sanders
Jayden Sanders

thinking caring about European history makes you racist

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh tumblr, leave.

And as the other guy said, germans were Forrest dwelling barbarians who wore fur suits and btfo the roman empire

Ethan Allen
Ethan Allen

Hey, don't worry about it. It's easy to misinterpret things online.

lol, right after I replied even panic struck me that I'd actually misunderstood you. For a few tense seconds I worried I made myself look like a jackass on the internet.

Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you enjoyed my post.

Luke Foster
Luke Foster

You got a lot of reshares on diaspora* fwiw

Tyler Peterson
Tyler Peterson

Forgive my ignorance, but what's diaspora*?

Chase Bell
Chase Bell

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(social_network)

Christopher Lewis
Christopher Lewis

"…our distributed design means no big corporation will ever control Diaspora. Diaspora* will never sell your social life to advertisers, and you won’t have to conform to someone’s arbitrary rules or look over your shoulder before you speak."

The caveat to this is that Podmins can be just as intense as they want to be, but you can always set up your own pod if you don't like it.
I've used a couple different pods because some podmins can be lazier than others about fixing bugs, but I've never had any problems besides forgetting to use the #nsfw tag to auto-spoiler porn.

Brody Lewis
Brody Lewis

Thanks! I think I'll seriously look into this. I've been wanting to dump facebook for a long time now.

Evan Lee
Evan Lee

Yep. My pod is therealtalk.org
But there's a lot of them. See if you can guess which one of those weirdos is me!

Jose Sanchez
Jose Sanchez

Trying to point to one particular thing as the reason for the fall of the Roman empire just shows how simplistically you view the world, it's absolutely ridiculous.

Why does most ideology resolve itself into fairytale tier understandings of the world?
You then proceed to tell me that it was only to do with the class struggle. You know there were other factors at play, right? External factors like barbarian invasions played a pivotal role, including Rome being sacked twice. Not to mention the religious conflict going on throughout the empire and you could even argue that the failing health contributed to its fall.

I'm not really going to trust Marxist.com to lecture me about the Roman Empire; even a cursory glance at that article shows that there's so much they're overlooking that it's practically pointless, not to mention all the fucking buzzword in that article; no, thank you.

Luke Morgan
Luke Morgan

Oh I agree, but I was taking issue with the implication that Rome managed to conquer much of the "known" world without cavalry.

Hudson Reed
Hudson Reed

You're literally retarded.

Elijah Garcia
Elijah Garcia

Tell me something I don't already know, faggot.

Cameron Jenkins
Cameron Jenkins

what's the point? you just stick dicks in your ears whenever you hear something you don't like

Benjamin Russell
Benjamin Russell

I would liken them more to rapefugees.

Robert Hernandez
Robert Hernandez

barbarian invasions

Rome had been inviting tribes across the Danube and Rhine for centuries prior to cover a desperate manpower shortage created by plagues and wars. By the time that the tribes were able to do any actual invading, the empire was already hopelessly fractured.

Rome being sacked twice

Rome was practically a ruin by then with most of the population having left. The birth of feudalism had already either forced or lured Romans onto rural estates.

religious conflict

That was a big nothing. Toward then end of the empire, the old religion was limited to aristocratic senators in Rome itself, and the Senate of the late empire was nothing but a book club. Julien the Apostate, being one such senator, tried to repopularize it, but it was too far gone. For the army's part Mithrism never went out of style, even after the ranks became mostly non-Italians.

failing health

Do you mean the plagues? That is obviously the case, as they were the prime cause of the labor shortage that stretched the economy of the late empire.

Ethan Jackson
Ethan Jackson

bump

Thomas Bell
Thomas Bell

To add to that: a big factor in the collapse of the empire was also the collapse of slavery. The empire was subject of near-constant food shortages, since their urbanized population was far larger than their agricultural technology could support (they simply didn't have enough men in the fields to work all their land). Like all the other city-states did, they used slaves to alleviate this problem. By filling the countryside with slaves, the empire could support the lifestyles of its citizens, at least for a while (this is not dissimilar to how western economies are in a large part driven by third-world exploitation - though for us it's not because we lack the technology).
However, most of those slaves were won through military conquest, which mostly stopped in the last few centuries of the empire. With the influx of slaves severely limited, it became more and more impractical to have so many slaves working the fields, and since the population issue had only grown worse since then, well…

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