Difficult JRPGS

FFXIII, because when it's over it's difficult to let go of such a beautiful flower.

The only sort of difficulty you're gonna get in this sort of games is when one of those things apply:

that or the mechanics are complex enough to figure out and you're not gonna bitch out and read a walkthrough
aka not mother 3

Talking about difficult jrpgs.

JRPG can't be difficult.

If a fight is too easy, you grinded too much.
If a fight is too hard, you didn't grind enough.

Grinding is a necessary evil.

What about games that punish your grinding by making the game unwinnable?

Or limit the level of grinding you can do by making enemies below your level give shit EXP and making the boss of that area the same level as the highest enemy of the are, so you will always be at the same level of the boss at best?

That sounds retarded. Why not just put a time limit?

delete this

Difficult as in tedious? All of them.

RPGs in general aren't hard since it's all about how leveled you are in your char and loots.

If you're asking for hard jap games however, there's a gorillion of them, more than any other.

Yeah that's fucking stupid. Even the devs thought so, since they patched it out afterwards.

Oxymoron thread?

I really have no idea how the game that you guys are talking about handles it or what game.
That sounds like how they patched out the mutant invasion timer in FO1 which kind of ruins it.

Strange Journey is nice too.

How about, just for once, there was a jRPG that had complex mechanics and explained everything you needed to know to use them in-game. It's always bugged me that they tell you stats, for example, but they don't tell you how they're actually used. Is the 25 Attack sword better than the sword with 20 Attack and +5 strength? Who knows since the game never tells you how Attack and Strength are actually used in damage calculations. If I have a 10% crit chance and an accessory gives +10% crit, does that mean I now have 20% crit chance or 11% crit chance? Does Bonus X stack with Bonus Y at all? I could go on, but I'm sure we've all encountered the same questions. It's like being given the measurements of household items but not being allowed to measure the places you're thinking of putting them. Without the full context, partial information is very little use. Especially when things get remotely tricky.

If a game is designed to give you lots of complex tactical choices that's great, but it's dumb to expect you to make the right choices without giving you the information to really understand what they mean in the first place, and games NEVER do. I know that faqs tend to clear these things up, but you shouldn't need to turn to those in the first place. jRPGs should explain their mechanics in full just like any game should tell you what button does what.

Also, a lot of "hard" RPGs tend to be difficult by really needing the right equipment/skills/etc for the fight at hand. But they also don't let you change these things mid-battle and don't tell you what to expect ahead of time. So checking faqs first aside, the design requires you to go in once, die, and then go in again now knowing what to expect and geared up for that. That's always bothered me too. Screwing up and dying is fine, but merely not being clairvoyant isn't a form of screwing up.

SaGa series. especially the post gameboy ones.

obtuse mechanics! like grinding? FUCK YOU! bosses that not only are hard but also cheat! Non-Linear Quests! Legendary items actually feel legendary instead of being the biggest number! etc. etc.

…hopefully the new one, Scarlet Grace, turns out to be good.

also this one but the same director dude.

"oh boy i gotta go circles and repeat this mob fight a thousands times to make the next boss fight less bullshit"

LMAO, weeaboos are cancer

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Yeah, I don't think OP wants those, despite being good games with those systems.

Hi, goon. Did you ever get your tenbux back?

This always bothered me. Is it really that hard to implement the ability to switch a piece of armor/weapon at the cost of a turn? Your party would still take a beating initially to figure out what is best needed and they would also have to sacrifice precious opportunities for offense to switch gear. If they balanced the game properly around this mechanic then the fight wouldn't be a cakewalk, just beatable while still challenging.

Then, outside of combat that requires timing like Shadow Hearts I don't know what OP wants.

I rather it be a skill because that sounds pretty OP.

You just described Devil Survivor. Fuck Devil Survivor, constantly changing the rules of the battle like it's nothing, especially when you spend time to get your characters to a place that's just perfect then on turn 2 the game summons a shiton of new enemies that fuck up your formation as it feels like the devs are laughing at you.

Which WRPGs are hard?

Most of the difficulty in RPGs comes from being forced to use all the tools at your disposal. This makes the RPGs which are the hardest also the most rewarding because you can break the system in many ways once you master it.

I've heard retards say Fire Emblem is hard but never found that to be the case.
Same for Etrian odyssey and 7th dragon. When people generally talk about difficulty they are comparing it to brain dead shit like Dragons Quest or Final Fantasy.

You can make parties that can kill enemies without taking a single point of damage. Hell you can easily kill enemies that have nothing but null on every single element and defense. Even mana isn't a problem with the amount of methods the game gives you to regain it.

Just apply yourself more than not at all.

The Wizardry games?

Because games usually that easy now. Also, JRPGs still bother with abstraction.

personally I don't mind a bit of trial-and-error gameplay. At least I prefer it over faceroll easy and forgettable fights. I know how you feel, but I find it exciting when you're stuck in a difficult fight with a less than optimal setup and still succeed.

Like in pic related. No usable items, no equipment changing on the fly, just you and your wits.

If you want to get your shit pushed in by a JRPG I would suggest the Etrain Odyssey series.

Also play fucking Legend of Legacy if you really want your shit fucked up.

I guess but there hasn't been a western Wizardry game in decades and most Wizadry clones are made in japan now.

If you are stuck in this mindset, then Dragon Quest 1 is perfect for you.
Most of the barriers in the game rely solely on if you are strong enough to survive the enemies there. There's just enough grinding to make you want to risk making a run for the next town before becoming stronger than the monsters in that area. It's exactly how grinding should be done.

For the OP, though I'm gonna throw in bravely Default. It's not perfect, and you can make the game too easy/boring if you focus on the wrong jobs, but there's a lot of strategies you can make from combining jobs.
If the Demo Version is still available, I recommend that too. It's like a condensed version of it's gameplay, and has it's own set of challenges.

Don;t listen to these faggots.

Try Wild Arms 3. Optional bosses are especially hard.

Legend of heroes trails in the sky games are hard if you put it on the highest difficulty.

I had to lower it to normal

Wild Arms (the PS1 ones at-least) optional bosses are always either just plain hard or have a retarded gimmick fucking frog suits

I never did beat endurance dungeon in WA3.
It was a great game to end the series on too pity they didn't

I just think level scaling is the worst anti-grinding mechanic. Bethesda might as well remove levels but they couldn't sell Skinner box walking simulators.

That was so fucking satisfying to take down.

Well yeah, but Bethesda's games give the player so many options in how to play it, there's no way to properly balance it.
Oblivion would have benefited from some kind of time reset like majoras mask (not just for grinding, but for story's sake), but that would be a nightmare to program right.

The level scaled enemies aren't even the worst part of the level scaling in Oblivion
Its the quest rewards.

This isn't remotely true.

Labyrinth of Touhou and The Genius of Sappheiros line of fan games are both amazingly designed RPGs. I've lost count of how many times I've played Labyrinth of Touhou just for the sheer variety of interesting stuff you can do with your team and how much it rewards skillful play (in case you're curious about what I consider to be skillful play, in this game you play with a team of 12. 4 are active and the 8 others are in the reserve. the characters are very limited in what they can do, like 3~5 skills per cahracter, but you can spend a turn to swap members around. there is just so much you can do without grinding).

Do difficulty mods count? Final Fantasy Tactics 1.3 is also great and very hard. It may seem unfair at first but it actually isn't. When you get good at this game you learn that you have many terrible habits that may be hard to kill. You gotta be able to analyze the situation and adapt, rather than trying to a make a one-size-fits-all team.

YS games on Nightmare difficulty.

Grind
Grind more

Is it possible to have a good jrpg without an exp system? Or maybe have a system where you don't get exp from normal encounters.

I heard PoE removed combat exp and people hated that. Why not have a colored exp system?

To all the memers saying rpgs can't be hard because grind. Good games actually balance their endgame/post game content around maxed characters and have an exp progression that will make you reach the cap reasonably easily by that time. There are also games in which enemies scale to your level and games in which the exp you get goes down if you fight underlevelled enemies. Yes, the genre is plagued by popular dating sims with RPG elements. But some games are still good.

Chrono cross has that. There are sporadic micro level ups from random encounters (shit like ATK +1) but the actual level ups only come from bosses. Each boss gives you one level.
The game wasn't designed for difficulty, though. There are some cool battles and it's mostly enjoyable to play, but that's it.

Specifically the Dreamcast version of skies of Arcadia. Maximum encounter rate, enemies all have insane crit rates, low item drop rates, high hp item recovery costs.

Nut up or shut up.

Rune Factory 3
Shadow Tower Abyss
Front Mission to some extent
Knights in Nightmare
Evo Search for Eden
Hybrid Heaven

The inherent problem with such a system is that you either base your game around lacking standard enemies to fight or you make fighting them a waste of time.

I agree. I'd rather a game doesn't have levels at all than level scaling.

This. I can generally deal with grind alright, but when the common enemies don't pay off at all? That's when the random fights seem like a totally pointless waste of time to be avoided. Though oddly enough, it only bothers me in games where you level up at all. I don't mind not getting exp or any real reward for every kill in say, a Mega Man game.

So I guess my rule is, if you can level from fighting anything at all, you should get exp from fighting everything.

I'm not sure what that means.

There's apparently a difficulty mod for that game, might try it out.

What if there were other incentives besides exp to fight enemies? Like maybe have them possibly drop abilities or crafting material. It is still grinding to get more "strength" but only up to a certain point. This way, the difficulty for a particular zone will remain constant no matter how many hours one spends grinding.

Summon Night a Sword Craft Story

EVO search for eden does exactly that but you are still practically getting "exp" from killing enemies.

Is there a JRPG that doesn't have any leveling at all but instead you improve via equipment?

Hope your not talking about the Baldr fight. You spend a whole day learning "I can only damage him by punching him with my main guy." So the right strategy is to rush him with said guy and keep from being surrounded. Getting flooded with fresh enemies is your punishment.

Sure, but there would be an upper limit for how much stronger one can get. I think the major complaint is that one can just keep leveling up to outdamage whatever boss is in the way. Having enemies drop abilities or equipment or whatever will lock a player to only be able to use shit up to that point instead of infinitely increasing their parameters by grinding exp.

I'd like to know if there is one myself.

Summon Night Swordcraft Story has leveling but the focus is on weapons.
Monster Hunter is not an RPG but it fits your demand perfectly
The Mystery Dungeon games focus more on your gear than character levels but both are important.
Vagrant Story is dependent on gear and skills and is a great game regardless
Rune Factory is pretty much gear dependent.
Games like Kings Field and Dark souls to a lesser extent focus on gear and movesets instead of levels and such.
Way of the Samurai is a top tier series with focus on gear

Neat. I see a lot of action-oriented JRPGs in there, though. I was more looking for turn-based but this is a good starting point. Thanks!

Why is this man so cool?

There is no such thing as a difficult RPG, what are you even talking about. Just level up past the enemies level and its easy. You can do this in every RPG, and its only hard if you are fighting against higher level enemies than yourself.

rip viper ;_;7

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Skyforge has this system which is a fusion of exp and picking what to invest your skill points into. exp isn't something you get by doing anything but instead an item drop that you collect and invest into in a huge skill tree

Genius of sappheiros is the fucking best

What? I thought deathclaws had static spawns in NV.

They're easy as fuck, lad.

The truth is, RPGS are a very easy genre in general. The hardest ones are hard due to either having mechanics work in ways contrary to the norm, not having said unconventional mechanics being explained, on top of having a specific way that must be played in order to get through it.

Just play Swordcraft Story OP, it isn't that hard, but it is far better than your generic JRPG shit. The combat is actually fun.

And if you're in for the weeb factor and animu-esque story I know I am, then Swordcraft Story is even better.

There's also yuri

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Any dungeon crawler with the exception of the Etrian Odyssey Untold story modes.

Especially the second one. What's the fucking point of a dungeon crawler if you give the player a special snowflake protagonist that is doubly as strong as any normal class?

They do.

He just purposely ignored and walked past the several "Warning! Deathclaws ahead!" signs scattered around the northern/northwestern areas of Goodsprings in an attempt to make a witty argument. Said argument falls flat on it's face to anyone who has played the game more than 2 hours.

**Besides, everyone knows that New Vegas isn't hard

Cater to Persona fans, of course.

His entire argument sounded like an entitled casual baby whining, and I've never even played the game.

Not surprised he did that. I remember watching one of his videos and he claimed MGS2 was an explosion action fest because of the gauntlet with the rays near the end.

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Most Shin Megami Tensei games. There's still difficult battles, even with the whole buff/debuff system. SMT Nocturne and Strange Journey are a good start. The SNES games are pretty easy in comparison, funnily enough. The NES games are mostly just tedious.
I've only played one of the GB SaGa games, but I hear the whole series is considered tough. Don't bother with Unlimited though: it's obtuse, not difficult.
Dungeon crawlers (Wizardry, 7th Dragon, Stranger of Sword City, Etrian Odyssey but stay away from Untold etc)
Azure Dreams is a psx roguelite that's fairly difficult. Not really an RPG, though.
A lot of NES RPGs are difficult, but mostly just grindy. Phantasy Star 1 + 2 are sort of in that category, but also have 1st person dungeons which adds genuine difficulty.
Vagrant Story is fairly tricky and complicated.
I hope you aren't saying that WRPGs are harder than JRPGs. Most WRPGs are a walk in the park, just like most most JRPGs. If I was going to recommend a hard WRPG, I'd probably recommend a dungeon crawler (for example, Eye of the Beholder or Bard's Tale), too.

Goodness me… I played some of EOU1's story mode, but never touched EOU2. This is disgusting.

My brother likes grinding in JRPGs. I don't understand it, unless there's some obvious but gradual progression, like say early Dragon Warrior.

It's up to you if you want to call this a JRPG.

I mean abstruse, not obtuse. The systems are needlessly complicated, but the game is a shallow cakewalk once you understand it.

I remember playing that shit, was hard, mostly because part of the UI was in moon still even with the translation patch, so I didn't really understand the "land" (or element battlefield system thing), and it was pretty clear that abusing it was the key to victory. I think I made it a bit past Eientei before it started getting really bullshit because I didn't understand how to abuse the combat system.

Colored exp probably means getting certain types of experience for certain actions. Melee red exp for fighting, magic blue exp for casting. And each exp type can only be spent on their colored tree.

Shadow Hearts was weird.

Fable does this but those games are garbage

Play Wild Arms series on PS1. No matter how much you grind, it still hard. The real obstacle isn't the bosses, its the dungeon.

You think Wild Arms is just you typical jrpg like FF, well prepare to get fucked by the dungeon design. This isn't like FF where you go in a dungeon, fight the enemies until you reach the end, then you fight the boss. Nope, every dungeon have a locked doors.Well, just find the key right? yes, in a fucking maze. But wait, the key also behind a locked door that opened by activating a switch. Easy right? Nope, theres a bazillion switch in a maze like dungeon and everyone of them have a purpose in solving the puzzle. Good fucking luck playing this game
inb4 you give up and go to gamefaq to look for a guide