Watchmen

I don't think avoiding having to nuke your own country is particularly nationalistic, but I guess that's just my opinion.

Watchmen just isn't as smart on repeated readings in my mind. Its themes are too over the place in my mind, and plenty of things don't really click to me, most especially Dr.Manhattan.
The ending feels almost forced and nonsensical as a centerpiece of drama, and I feel lime Moores worldview ends up clashing against the story he is telling.

Especially since it resorts to "Well X is super Smart or advanced so you don't get how or why he thinks but trust me it makes sense"

One of my friends just read Watchmen for the first time and thought it was shit because Ozzy's plan was retarded and the ending was stupid. I still like the book, but I was forced to agree about the ending.

How about you fuck off back to cuckchan faggot?

Jesus Christ,fuck off back to cuckchan and kill yourself.

it shows
because he's an american hero, if it were to be found out in any way shape or form, it would surely spark a war. Plus, this is a comic made for american readers and the nuke engulfs some of the characters we've grown to know throughout the story.
And in any case, USA is the proverbial image of the west, if that's attacked, then the rest of the civilized world will have their sphincters tightened and prepared for an intergalactic war.
Rorshachs journal is an open ending, because it can still be scoffed off and ignored and if there was an investigation, there wouldn't be any traces of it since all people working on teleportation tech are either dead on Mars or is Ozymandias.

Reminder that it's established that Veidt is deranged. And the Black Freighter comic in-universe points to him massacring New York for nothing.

Ozzy was the most inhuman of any of them.

At least you are self-aware. Now go back where you came from.

Writing is not the strongest part of the book, and once you know the mystery, story has little to offer besides a few character moments. Visuals are the best part of Watchmen.

Moore is a hack fraud. That's all you need to know.

For the World's Smartest Man…Ozzy's solution seems short-termed and unstable.

I found it funny his plan to stop a complex geo-political problem is basically a comic book villain scheme.

That's what I always thought. Does he not realize that any stable new world order he manages to create can only last as long as he's around to direct it?

I was under the understanding that it was basically a desperation move, of sorts. Even then it still seems to be a pretty stupid plan since he is friends with Godman and could have just spent all that time manipulating Big Blue into making nuclear weapon just not function inside the solar system.

Hell, the big blue wang didn't even do much. If you have godlike powers…and the world is close to nuclear armageddon…why didn't he try to use his powers to just disable every nuclear weapon in the world?

That's the point. It's a dumb superhero solution to a complex problem.

Faking an alien invasion sounds like one of Silver-Age Superman's zany schemes.

Heck fuck nuclear threat.

If he can collect enough resources to make his monsters, can't he then just influence politics or some shit? If he can hide his evil monster activity from the world enough for him to be confident, couldn't he just kill or influence like 400 trigger happy politicians?
And what is his plan for the future? Keep making giant monsters for the world to fight somehow?

For even a LAST resort plan its retarded.

…So what? Not sure what the point of it is. That its unrealistic and silly?
Brilliant. Genius.

I get his plan. Unite the world against a common foe…but then..what's next? Alliance in war doesn't mean they stay allied in peace time, that's how the Cold War got started.

Oh boy, it's one of these threads.

Because preventing basic nuclear physics from functioning would never have any kind of consequences.

Thats the stupid part about Moore Selectively picking his rules.

Ozzy's plan is just a bullshit excuse to create a moral dilemma.
I do believe that said moral dilemma is why people always get stuck on the plan so much though.

People often have a rough time at looking stuff within the context of the story itself, and excluding real life situations, but that's not to say they're dumb or anything, it's just hard to think that abstractly. In this thread alone, you have an user asking, "Well why nuke his own countrymen?" and the answer to that is, "Because the smartest man to ever exist decided that was the way to go." If someone has a problem with the plan, the answer is already there in the narrative: "Ozymandius is really fucking smart and he's already figured that this is the optimal route." Sure it might now work in a real world situation that you're living in, but a story gets to decide that, "No, this IS the solution no matter what you say" for thematic purpose.

No, I got that I called it really fucking lazy. Its a cheap copout way of writing, same way with Dr Manhattan.

And thats a big part of the problem with Moores Writing overall. He overrides things that make sense for things that he feels SHOULD happen.

For a Creator subverting stories for things that just SHOULD happen to them, he sure likes just resorting "God Says so" answers in his writing.

holy shit I missed t hat part

I thought it was because Rorschack was unwilling to compromise even in the face of a plan that he knew would make the world a better place so he chose death by cop

dipshit
you want world peace and a one world government you go all the way to get it

when the smartest and possibly wealthiest man in the world believes something is best for the world, you can bet he's going to follow through on it

That's shit storytelling. I'm not sure what the point is:

Really I find myself disliking watchmen the more and more I think about it.

He didn't think it would make the world a better place though, he thought lying to people and killing millions the way he did was evil.

It's because you lack the ability to empathize with people that do not share your views.
For example:
At no point did this occur in the story nor was I eluding to it.
Further, the point I was making is that as he is recognized as the smartest man in the world, this is not contested, because of this he feels he knows better than all others because he is the smartest man in the world.
That alone isn't even storytelling, that's just the perspective of the character.

Why was he crying.

Probably because he knew he was about to die and was overcome with emotion.

He does the whole "Im not some republic series villain"
I'm saying Moore is "Subverting" classic hero tropes in the dumbest way possible.
They set this world up to be more "Realistic" but then it's not realistic, nor is it not just pulpy goofy shit just taken way too seriously.

Im just not sure what's Moores point is.

Why did he think he was going to die when he could have chosen to simply keep it a secret.

Because you lack empathy.

Because Rorschach doesn't fucking compromise.

That applies to fucking every story in existence. The underdog isn't supposed to win. Batman is supposed to die the first moment he jumps off a building in a batsuit. John Mclane is supposed to die the moment he gets in a gunfight with more than two people at once.

The writer is creating a separate world to tell us something about our own. In his world, what he says goes. In Watchmen, is is thematically clear that what Ozymandius is doing is THE PLAN that will make the world better, bar fucking none. the only question is if it's worth the cost. If you want to talk about how realistic the plan of giant squid attacks on New York city is, you need to fuck off to another board.

Opinion discarded.

He attacks them both to ease them off of nuking the other completely and unites them towards a common enemy like they had back in ww2. It more than likely goes to shit once the journal is discovered though.

The loss of two cities was a small price to pay in Ozy’s mind when the alternative was glassing the planet.

ITT: Posters totally ignore the Black Freighter comic

Now what would having an obvious parallel to Ozymandias' actions end in the lead character murdering innocents and brutalize his family then join the titular ship suggest about Veidt's plan? And showing signs of him being ill in the head (see him sitting on his parents grave)?

Hey reddit

He made himself feel every death.
Sorry, I nearly said that with a straight face.

Do you realise that by pulling off a stupid, lurid, harebrained comic book solution to a real world problem, Ozymandias has managed to drag the world into a lurid pulp SF narrative? He'll never get ridiculed for dressing like a super-hero again, because he wrote history and made the real world as asinine as his own power fantasy.

Yes. Most people who complain about the stupid squid monster don't fully grasp that the Watchmen is a complete deconstruction of superheroes.

However, this is understandable since the Watchmen radically altered the genre it was deconstructing. What was standard in cape comics before 1986 is not the standard today.

I think this right here is the greatest tragedy of Watchmen.

An accurate adaption of the comic would just be a regular superhero movie today. Its reached the point where Amazon's production of The Tick's best scene is a full embrace of all the dumb things superheroes used to be.

I think people have a problem with the plan not because the plan is crazy shit.
The "problem" with the plan is that,if it is right ,there is no rational opposition to it.
This makes people leave the narrative to prove why the plan can't possibly ever realistically work in the fucking fictional story.
Its all emotional bullshit.Same reason so many people like Rorschach at the end.
Bad man has to pay so i can feel good.

You really don't get Manhattan's character at all. He can't act on free will at all. Even his speech he leaves with is probably complete bullshit designed just to get him off-stage for the story to end. He understands he's in a totally deterministic universe in which nothing he does can have any effect because it has already been determined. He experiences his first panel and his last at the same time and he goes through the actions that were written for him with no alternatives. He is a character cursed with almost the level of awareness that the reader has. He never explicitly says anything fourth wall breaking, but if you read between the lines, his level of awareness is not unlike if he knew he was in some kind of a narrative (not necessarily a comic) and couldn't influence anything not because he didn't want to but because he was inherently powerless to alter what's already happened (i.e. everything).

Did people before Watchmen think that Superman making Jimmy Superfat was some kind of high exemplar of reality?
What was his literary point? What mark was he trying to leave?

Yeah, that was the other lazy writing aspect.
It's the writing equivalent, of saying that any stupid actions on behalf of any of your characters are caused by lead poisoning because of lead waterpipes.

I bet you're a meatcuck.

ITT: people autistic enough to 'get' Watchmen fight with people so autistic they don't have the theory of mind to understand why anyone would do anything

lol, fag

what is it that you dont get

I think it was one of the few things that the movie did right - attacking multiple nations at once to prove a global threat

One caveat, he seemed to be legitimately thrilled with the whole tachyon bullshit. The fact that he for once didn't know what was going to happen really got his blood pumping.
Dr. Manhattan is not quite omnipotent, but he is omniscient.

That is…. pretty depressing actually.

I wouldn't go that far. More like he's so far up his own nihilistic ass that he can't even pretend to care. At least that's what I got from his interactions with Laurie.

I didn't mean literally retarded. I said its a cheap way out of writing things that made sense.

Thats the thing about so much about Moores writing. His tales just don't have an organic quality to them. Things happen because he says they do, and he will then later justify it instead of organically weaving it into the story.

Care of giving an example of organic storytelling ?

Il explain what I mean by inorganic first:

An example being Watchmen, and "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?".

In Watchmen the storytelling is inorganic, because Dr Manhattan, is literally controlled by fate…Or more actually the whims of the writer. What he can and can't do is bound by Moore in ways that don't fully make sense IE: "If X limits your future vision", can't you just look further into the future after they go down and read a newspaper there or something and then know what happened retroactively?"
Moore often finds himself thinking himself more clever then he really is, with subversions that only make sense about a step further.
Like how in his Leauge of Extraordinary gentlemen his twist on the Martians not dying to the common cold and instead to a virus that's a crossbreed of anthrax and streptococcus…..Well if the aliens were susceptible to any virus at all for earth then the common cold would have indeed killed them regardless, and if they where invulnerable to alien viruses, then the alien virus would not work on them either.
Same thing with Man of Tomorrow: which can be answered with: rocks fell everybody died. Why? Because another omnipotent god said so.
I mean, sure I guess. But those are literal dues ex machinas in a sense. Gods come down to say "And this is how the story ends" like the greeks used to do.

Organic storytelling is making people forget about the strings. Either put them in the mindset of those people, so even when they do make stupid mistakes, they make sense for the person doing them.
Moore instead just says "You just can't understand him because he's god, or indestructible, or crazy, or superduper smart, trust me".

How come he's predetermined to do a whole bunch of stupid shit that makes no sense given his ability to see the future

its retarded american comic writing, dont think too hard about this turd

lol good argument

What did he mean by this?

He Truthseeker.

Are you a homosexual or feminized?

Reminder that only Leftypol posters non-ironically defend Watchmen here.

No one cares.

Cuba is a garbage pit and Truman did nothing wrong by nuking the Japs.

The eternal anglo.

Eh, I'd say that both the Alan Moore's wierd views and conflicting messages with the supposed result clouded what could have been an interesting philisophical question.
Still it was a wierd ending which was unique and the fact that people still talk about it cements that.
The fact that pretty much everything up untill the ending was fun but depressing action mixed with story.
Culminating in a mood shift to just depressing didn't help things much.

Also, Manhetten's story is quite a bit contrived but my suspension of disbelief wasn't too shaken as I found his plot interesting.

Also, I accidentally read a bit of the unnofficial sequel's plot while reasearching on wikipedia, I know Rorschach is a cool character and him dying was sad but I personally would not be interested in seeing an entire series of his corpse being dragged around. Maybe that's why Manhatten vapourised him

lol