Here we go again

Sirlin is a hack.

I'm not a meleefag and I'd mod Sm4sh if I had the spare time.

If only there was a stage with Midgar's layout but no hazards already…

Do tourneytards seriously find Whispy Woods blowing wind too hard for them to cope with?

Likewise for the tornado?

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Pretty much this.

Apparently the minor changes to the distance from the blast zones and the very slightly adjusted platforms is a big deal.

If history has taught us anything, is that you don't need to have L-cancelling or wavedashing for people to say you're clinging to Melee.

If they attempt to do any of the following:
People will say it's attempting to be Melee 2.0 (or Melee 3.0 in this case).

I don't even know what people's beef is with PM to begin with. It's just another fun Brawl mod that got the limelight for a while and was dropped after the realization that you can't have "eSports" for a fan mod.

Then you just have Town and City with slightly more movement and different layouts. What's the point?
So getting rid of the background stage and barrels? Or is it just getting rid of the transition that destroys the background?
Even Meleefags don't care about Wispy.

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cant stages be easily replaced?

If they hated it so much they'd stick to 64/Melee/whatever.
Which is completely optional. It's a mod, afterall, so you can put whatever stages you want in it.

The majority of smash compfags don't know what these mean or exaggerate them. Both problems can just be solved with an attack speed increase and higher blockstun (more in line with other fighters)

The game looks slow because of unsafe attacks, see first solution

Weaken recovery hitboxes and adjust ledge trumping to give an actual benefit to the one trumping

The problem with compfags and Project M and the like is that they use Melee as the base of a good competitive platform fighting game when in reality that's just autism not wanting to let go of things they are familiar with. That's why the true autism M2K doesn't like it.

I believe that you can have alt stages in Brawl mods ala Omega stages in Smash 4, except that you can have up to 9 stages in one slot.

user, I…

It's the default, which is indicative of their attitude.

Stupid nigger won't even give details.

Because he has no experience designing an actual good game and has no idea what he wants to do, just that he will dedicate himself to the idea of making it good, and will likely take user feedback on changes too seriously.

If that was a Image it would go in my Wat folder.

If by "attack speed" you just mean startup/ending frames for attacks then I don't see how that would really help. Punishes would still drop after a few hits with the busted knockback scaling and with how free airdodges to escape combos are (at mid-high percent where they aren't in KO percent yet).
Recovery hitboxes aren't a problem. The problem is that getting on stage is so free for most characters. This on top of the magnet ledges make recovery a joke - unless you monumentally fuck up and/or completely telegraph your recovery for an easy gimp, you're going to make it back. Plus with how often characters fly off the stage but don't die makes repeating the process of getting back to the stage just a chore.
Is it not? Would you rather they use 64 or Brawl?
Or maybe just going to what "works" and then building it up from there? PM started off just porting Melee mechanics but later mixed back in Brawl mechanics like footstooling, DACUS, etc, and balancing them together.
What? He's been playing it more than Melee as of late.

I've been running through the idea of turning Sm4sh into a competitive game in my head several times since I made that post since I've got nothing else better to do tonight, so I wasn't 100% clairvoyant when I made that post.

Make more attacks do small knockback that's not affected by %, whatever the smash kiddies are calling that. Increase hitstun too I suppose, but not too much. I would also put in target combos but that's just me
As I've mentioned before in a post not related to yours I would like invincibility degradation to prevent things like that. On top of that, air dodges and spot dodges both will have faster frames overall to compensate for it, but with more vulnerable recovery frames
When I said this I referred to the magnetism, but recovery moves themselves that have active hitboxes could also get a reduction on their effectiveness
Obviously make the knockback from being launched by a strong attack higher to go along with the change that more attacks do simple small knockback. Smash triggering time make all forms of extra jumps faster with higher gravity and make recovery moves faster overall. This makes them more predictable since the opponent has less time to think about what to do while the defender still has the same potential he did before, and makes air-dodges less viable in a recovery situation

Also, my idea of ledge changes would play into this; The time you're stuck on a ledge once you cling to it is reduced to 3~5 frames, and you're only invincible for those frames + 1, so you'll be vulnerable nearly immediately as soon as you're able to do something. Ledge trump stun frames or whatever the fuck they call it would be slightly longer so there's more time to punish. The reason the frames are so small is that ledge trumping needs to be a real reward like a parry, fudging the timing can lead to your own demise, so it's a major execution choice. The recovery changes make recovery attempts easier to punish due to predictability and being downright difficult, so the reward of actually reaching the ledge is the same as it's been

Beautiful accident =/= result of good game design decisions. Technically, it's the only basis for a competitive platform fighter but to be respected as a fighter it needs elements and designs from other fighting games as well.

see above

I thought he was bitching about it constantly since he can't win in it. Whatever.

There is already a smash thread

I guess that could help but it seems like it would make combos become more stale if they recycle the string of moves over-and-over again, given the smaller number of normal moves there are and the lack of special inputs.
I'd prefer Smash sticking to having a more "improvised"/"free-form" combo game where linking hints is about reading and covering knockback, enemy DI, and tech options, rather than focusing more on execution when it's biggest draws were being a less execution-focused game.
I'd just make it so that you only get one air-dodge - putting you in free-fall like in Melee isn't necessary, but have a limit would be better than being able to spam it. Smash 4 kind of had the right idea with air-dodging while landing having high recovery time, but there's often very few ways to punish that landing that it's not really a big deal.
That would probably help off-stage game the most since people wouldn't just float down to the stage anymore.
I like those ledge trump ideas.

Such as? I don't really see anything missing from Melee besides better balancing in stage and characters.

I totally forgot to mention that I'd probably remove staling entirely since it's not for a game like Smash.

Target combos are just one normal move cancelled into another, just like Ryu's d-tilt > strong d-tilt, and they could work as frame traps on certain characters that could use it. I totally understand your desire for a more read-based game though.

And if it swings that way more people would see it coming anyways.

Viable characters :^)

I know the guy who made this mod.

Here's the rundown:

He started Melee43DS on GBATemp, and when he hacked his Wii U, he quit and left us to finish it. He never did any work aside from bringing the team together.

Take ANYTHING Y2K/Gug50507 does with a grain of salt. Don't trust anything he makes, because 90% of the time he will abandon his team.

I'll be happy to answer questions.

Further proof he is a kike.

So heed my warning - Don't trust this guy. He's bad news.

It's pretty clear here that he doesn't do shit. Everything that's already in this mod was created by other people. He even says he has to learn how to include his own shit, this mod will never be made. Ya'll wasting your time on bullshit. Even worse, it's Meleefag bullshit.

Is he autistic?

Honestly, I don't even care about Melee43DS.
I was invited to test, but yes, I know the whole story.

No, just a total faggot. He does things for fame and he has people that will do things for him. Like I said, he's done no work at all. Furthermore, he doesn't like when people doesn't do EXACTLY what he says; he values his own opinion over what people might actually want.

I will support this until Sakurai adds a hazard switch so I can play on Wily Castle.

oh so he's probably a narcissist

teach me Sm4sh modding m8 so I can make the best unique mod, read my quality posts

Join Smash modding Wii U discord. They seem to know a lot, although they don't know some things yet since nobody seems to be able to debug asm yet (You can open up code.bin in IDA to find the functions yourself)

They all praise Y2K for his shitshow mod though

my confirmation bias of smashfags being fags strikes again

It's not necessarily just reads. It's more about reacting to your opponents defensive mix-ups and learning how to cover each available option in your play. (see hastily thrown together pic). Melee and 64 did that well (even if 64 didn't have as many defensive mix-ups as Melee), but Brawl and Smash 4 failed in that department with how little options it gave for offense.

That would have been pretty good, rather than the Omega stages.

So he's just another creator doing things for attention and control rather than the work. I'm not really surprised. When was the last time someone creating a fan project wasn't a complete egotist?

Fucking called it.

I knew this fucking modder couldn't be trusted.

Invoker so who is gunna do all the smash 4 modding I know TS4M is was the head honcho before it got leaked

HOLY FUCK PM FAGGOTS

JUST PLAY YOUR SHITTY MOD

WASN'T 7 YEARS OF AUTISM ENOUGH?

Every time I think the "Smash community" can't get any worse, I'm surprised to find it does.

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I'm just glad they'll make Smash4 playable(even if it will take at least 3 years from now for the project to be good).
Autism on Holla Forums is just a bonus, PM threads were also always full of this "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE THAT'S NOT HOW THE GAME IS SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED YOU… YOU… DOUBLE TOURNEYFAGS"

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Same, I'm actually hoping someone uses one of the extra jump buttons to trigger a utility move.

like say Mario has his Down B as the tornado, with a button dedicated to utilities, we can also have FLUUD as well. Could also work for Wario's Bike, Cloud's Charge and Shulks Muhnado switch

pretty much, it's fucking hilarious when spergs come out of the wet work just to shit on Project M for not being an official product

Nigga, it's the same concept. You don't expect nintendo to hire a random team of devs to work on their biggest crossover, do you?

Do you not know how copyright works. The dev team for PM didn't even have the propper rights to use the models and textures that were in brawl.

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You don't see the FGC doing this garbage.

The funnest part is that these types will later call tourneyfags autistic, when they have just as much if not more autism than them.

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It's a party game. They're all party games.

How am I not surprised niggers that hate the game with the most single-player content to complement the multiplayer content are advocates for the autismal modding scene?
You'd think autistic people would enjoy a game that let them play alone. Either way, I'm talking to a fence here, so oh well.

Soundtrack does not make a game.
Subspace was nice but it got quite repetitive.
Again, the core of a game is gameplay, which just wasn't that good in Brawl.

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Yah that comes with a risk you idiot. yah PM was fun and all but after a while the lawyers will come and will probably say "Yah you kind of cant do that"

So mods are just not allowed?

wew

Not really.
That being said, nintendo didn't really care and never C&D'd them because they "required" you to have a legit copy of brawl(required as in, made it slightly out-of-the-way to install the mod if you had pirated it)

They should get Debi Derryberry as an announcer, she's like an older, not cancerous Tara Strong.

Being anonymous wouldn't do shit because whats stopping them from going after TO's or streamers that stream PM if they have PM and sueing them straight out of pocket.

Also wouldn't being anonymous from the start would attract imposters saying "They were the first to do PM" anyway?

Have a Wily Castle where the only change is the removal of Yellow Devil and maybe I'll start taking a look, these stage changes are shit right now.

I dunno.
Either way, don't get hyped for things before they come out (Standard Holla Forums advice)

If they're gonna do any new mechanics for smash 4

They can make the frame window of Extended Dash dancing be bigger since some characters run animation are really long and skidding gets annoying when trying to do a good Back air

that the new techniques that Bidou shows would also be beneficial

Call me when Smash 4 Minus is being released. Maybe then it will be worth getting into Smash4 modding.

Meleefags, everyone.

Fucking this

The fact that Nintendo feels threatened by modding and fan projects is both sad and hilarious. Even EA of all companies isn't as uptight about that stuff.

Pot meet Kettle

Nothing you have said is accurate.

But will we finally get Sami

except it's not

why do PMfags/anti-competitivefags keep saying it's another Project Meme?

you fags never played Brawl+ or 20XX?

sage since we already have a Smash thread up

oh boy it's this meme again

I asked the fox guy if he wanted to smash cocks as well

Guess that explains why his other mod was literally porting melee mechanics to 3DS

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Yet Nintendo still prevents streaming of it on Twitch and even went to lengths to ban mentioning of it on miiverse (even going as far as to ban the initials PM). They clearly take issue with it.

Great points.

Explain how the Great Maze isn't an egregious case of lazy padding when it clearly recycles all the locations and bosses from the rest of the SSE while hacking them together with slight alterations into a psuedo-metroidvania.

As long as they don't fuck up my man Little Mac I don't really give a flying fuck since it won't work on a 3ds anyway.

I am

If Smash 4 modding lets you add new true projectiles to a character's moveset, then most likely in the future or something.

Are you still working on that project to make Smash 4 Melee for 3ds?

First of all, considering the entire purpose of Subspace Bombs is to transport the land sucked up by them into Subspace, why wouldn't the locations show up again in Subspace?

Also, many of them are remixed or are completely new area using the old themes. For example, the section based on The Forest stage is completely new and doesn't appear in the original Forest stage at all.

Oh no! They've never done Boss Rushes in games before! Did you sperge out when you had to fight most of the Wind Waker bosses again in Ganon's Tower?

This should never excuse laziness. It didn't excuse it in DMC4 and it should excuse it here.
Minor changes don't stop it from being a rehash that artificial inflates game length. The stages still amount to nothing more from point A to point B while mindlessly pummeling fodder enemies, maybe solving a "puzzle" along the way, and eventually fighting a boss/fighter.
Boss Battles Mode is a much better much better Boss Rush than the Great Maze. It doesn't force you to trek through the dull stages again and can get away with the lack of changes to the fights by forcing you to work with more limited resources and thus giving you a better challenge in that way. Had that been put at the end of the game instead of the whole Great Maze, then the SSE would have been redeemable.

You know the funny thing here is given your previous posts indicate being a Melee Fanboy you probably eat up Falco and Ganondorf being clones.

So like your beloved DMC games? Hack N Slashes aren't a deep genre bro.

It's lazy to reuse content to pad out the length of a game, you obtuse piece of shit. Just because the story explains it doesn't mean it's acceptable - gameplay should always take precedent over the story.
What kind of argument is this and what does it have to do with any I mentioned there? Are you seriously comparing DMC's gameplay to Brawl? Are you really going that far to defend your shitty game?
It was lazy for the devs to recycle their stages and bosses just to make their game last longer.
Boss rushes in general are lazy but their presentation can make up for it if it presents a different challenge. Fighting them all back to back on limited resources makes for a more interesting challenge than making you trudge through uninteresting areas again just to find them and fighting them again in the same conditions (save for the character switches which give you more of an advantage if anything).

You probably play with items and just run around until you get a good one.

Hope you liked Sticker Star, because Miyamoto pandered to faggots like you.

You whine about "The stages still amount to nothing more from point A to point B while mindlessly pummeling fodder enemies, maybe solving a "puzzle" along the way, and eventually fighting a boss" but seem to have an affinity for a series that does just that.

Are you really going that far to defend your shitty genre?

Sorry, I couldn't you over your inability to git good on any stage that doesn't have Battlefield's layout.

Hope you liked Sticker Star, because Miyamoto pandered to faggots like you.

You whine about "The stages still amount to nothing more from point A to point B while mindlessly pummeling fodder enemies, maybe solving a "puzzle" along the way, and eventually fighting a boss" but seem to have an affinity for a series that does just that.

Are you really going that far to defend your shitty genre?

Sorry, I couldn't hear you over your inability to git good on any stage that doesn't have Battlefield's layout.

I'd like it if Sakurai thought it was. But no, despite being built very solidly on Brawl's foundation with miniscule changes in the characters, a giant budget and more than 100 dollars to get all the content, you're getting nowhere near your money's worth. Sakurai still pretends he has to put the same effort in making characters as a real fighting game for no reason. Not to mention all the extra modes in the game are fucking trash by anyone's standards.

But yeah when I think party game platformer fighter, I think slow, momentumless and highly defensive play.

yet no C'nD on PM outside shithead devs doing layoffs and dumb decisions after the initial cancellation.

honestly think Nintendo wanted to play easy and silence PM than taking it down (have they ever confirmed taking down texture hacks/model import? i know they can't with purely in code, like GameGenie.) but who knows?

Stick Star has some of the worst fucking gameplay in any Paper Mario. What the fuck are you talking about? Can you stop with these fucking asides and actually address the fucking points?
Wow, you really were saying DMC's gameplay was comparable to Brawl's and shitting on an entire genre of games just to defend Brawl. How hopeless of a casual are you, exactly?
Makes it just plain easier since you're not locked into a specific character.
Unless the challenge was meant to be testing my patience for putting up with the game's bullshit, there was no effort in actually getting to them - it was just mind-numbing tedium.

Wow, you really are illiterate and only read things how you want to see them. How hopeless of a Platinum fanboy are you, exactly?

You say that like the journey doesn't have any impact. You know you carry damage from the level with you into battle, right?

How hopeless of a casual are you, exactly?

You literally said that DMC is in the same vain as SSE:
Tell me how this is not you directly comparing the two.
Aside from your blatant ignorance, you're saying DMC is apparently a game where you "mindlessly pummeling fodder enemies", right? If you've ever actually played a DMC you'd know that's blatantly false, as it's gameplay revolves entirely around mastering it's combat/style system.
You know that there are restock doors littered everywhere and enemies are dumb as shit so taking significant damage to them shouldn't be acceptable on even the highest of difficulties?
Instead of continuing repeating my points in some vain attempt to seem clever, why don't actually make arguments?

Normally I would assume you're just baiting for replies, but Smashfags actually are this autistic so I can't even be certain.

No, I said your criticisms of Subspace can easily be applied to DMC.

Comparing two games doesn't mean I'm saying they have the same gameplay. I can say you shoot things in Doom and in Halo, but that doesn't mean I'm saying they have the same gameplay.

Oh sorry, made by Kamiya at Capcom, but uses the trademark style of gameplay that he uses at Platinum.

And MGR is deep game too?

Here's a crazy idea: don't use them. By your logic, the conditions of Boss Battles aren't as unique because you can use heart containers.

Maybe you shouldn't say stupid things in the first place so they don't get used against you?

I know Brawl haters are this autistic, but this is a special kind of autism right here.

Except there clearly isn't any focus on exploration or puzzle solving in DMC, so it's not a core aspect of the game that detracts from the experience. I mean I won't complain about the lacking character progression mechanics with stickers in SSE because I know that's not core to the experience.
Are you going to keep making asides to other games instead of addressing the points?
Yeah, and you can also ignore the B-button or play blind-folded to make it harder. Imposing restrictions on yourself by just ignoring things in the game isn't true difficulty and shouldn't be necessary in any game to make it challenging. Zelda doesn't suddenly become difficult by nature since you can ignore heart containers and do 3-heart runs.
In mindless regurgitating what someone says to you and constantly dodging points you're making yourself look like a retard who can't form his own words.
Objectively false.

Do you also hate how games have difficulty options lower than Hard?

You know what I meant, smartass. Exploits used in competitive play.

Yes

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Brawl+ was so much better than Project M. It was Brawl… but faster! And without any strange gimmicks like Ivysaur's Solar Beam, Lucario being a Marvel character, or Falco being reverted back to NotFox.

Oh, and it had some form of auto L-cancelling too, because fuck that "feature." What did the Project M "developers" think putting that shit back would be a good idea?

such a life for a villain fan

not to mention the new stuff they gave to Wolf in SFZ like the Lightning Tornado technique and the Lone Wolf walker. Imagine they turn that into a special attack in his moveset to shorten his clone status like Luigi.

yeah, game's pretty mediocre (72/100 for me), but has a ton of cool shit that be used in later Star Fox titles (if we ever get another)

Wait, source?

you know, i actually feel greedy over giving Star Fox 4 reps after Zero, the series' ongoing declination, and seeing KI:U's performance.

but at the end, who gives a shit? at least they aren't stupid one-off sidekicks like any Mother character that isn't the main antagonists. Pit, Palutena, and Medusa are the only important characters of KI to add, not Dark Pit, and Hades fucked off to oblivion like the last game's mastermind.

got this from a halfchan thread during when 8ch kept shitting itself in bed.

some OPM cosplayer asked if Vaati was going to appear, this is what the HW devs replied:
youtube.com/watch?v=ne-T5Vu8L6E&feature=youtu.be&t=587

Transcript:
either it's the 3DS hardware botching down shit like Lana's moves and the enemy count, they decided to save Groose and Vaati for HWNX, or the court case Temco had with Capcom (which is unlikely, Nintendo owns all the Capcom Zeldas and designed characters like with DKC.)

Star Fox doesn't need four reps either

Considering bigger series got left in the dust while KI got shilled, I give a shit.

Did they change some stuff or does her moveset cause lag or something?

NO FUCKING EGGMAN PLAYABLE

What's the fucking point of modifying the stages if they game has already omega mod which is perfect for tourneyfags, oh wait nevermind, they always choose the fucking Animal Crossing stage showing a big fuck you to the people who bothered to do something else besides jerking off.

you fucking nigger, tourneyfags want Battlefield not fucking Final Destination. Do you see an omega mode in Project M? No? Then you're fucking wrong, you god damn idiot. I will shit furry with the likes you've never seen. You're fucking done kiddo

Is always the same fucking "harmless" stage, instead of switching to another thematic, they'll stick to the shitty ones, it's just fucking jucking insane.

Why not just play omega stages? Are hazards really that big a fucking deal for tourney types? You'd need to be braindead to fall for like 95% of them.

Project M 2 would make me buy a Wii U.

guess so

yeah yeah i get it

check out Lana's Summon Gate in both games and you'll see the differences. looked pretty gimped in the Legend/3DS version

damn forgot to sage

Eh, the Wii's virtual console doesn't work for Rare's N64 games.

If there's one thing you should do about these projects, it's completely ignore them. They're oft run by faggots with egos that greatly outsize their competence.
Ignore that shit, and maybe visit it in a couple of years time to see if they've done anything good with it. If not, move on with your life. No need to give these faggots more attention.

Tourneyplayers blame games for their own failures at any opportunity. It's why they ban walk-offs instead of making chaingrabbers hold any accountability.

I not sure what's worse; that instead of any of the good games on it you'd rather buy a Wii U for a mod and one of most autistic mods at that, or that you unironically want a PM2 in the first place.

Like what?

A party game can still be competitive. The spirit of the people playing it is what decides whether or not it's one or the other, not the game itself.

Consider: a group of good friends playing Street Fighter for fun, versus a group of faggots getting together to play it competitively.

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Other than maybe Tropical Freeze, I'm not really interested in any of those. Does Tropical Freeze even have an extra world?

Just because you aren't interested in them doesn't mean they aren't good games.

No Tropical Freeze doesn't have a full extra world like DKCR3D did, but it has three levels in the extra world, which is an improvement over the original DKCR having only one level in the extra world.

Mario Maker's convenient. Being able to change game styles on the fly is great.

This is literally like the level of cancer that defended DmC.

NO, SHITTY SINGLE PLAYER DOESN'T GIVE A MULTIPLAYER GAME VALUE.

NO, A SOUNDTRACK DOES NOT GIVE A GAME ANY VALUE.

GAMEPLAY.

How did I move the goal post? I thought we were talking about how much of an autist I am. When you said that I could buy the console for another game I asked you to present the games, and I said I wasn't interested in most of them.
Then I'll buy future products that have a fully fleshed extra world.
That still does not justify the price tag for me. I can start making a level in Lunar Magic pretty quickly, and the level of control I have over what I can make is enough to satisfy me.

Go play Street Fighter V if you want a multiplayer-focused fighter with no content, turbofag.

Because it changed from good games to games that interest you.

But can you reuse that level in SMB1, 3 and NSMBU without having to remake it again?

Look, I hate how there's stuff missing too, but you can't deny Mario Maker has it's own quirks and traits that other things can't offer.

I'm just trying to process the fucking logic here, tourney types gravitate towards Battlefield or Final Destination because it's the I guess most "neutral" playing field possible in the game with no stage geometry or hazards to get in the way, Sm4sh brings in omega variants of stages to appeal to those types by making potentially every stage a Final Destination, then somebody immediately sets about making hazardless versions of existing stages.

counterpicking

as someone who plays every smash game except brawl competitively and have different mains in each of them, I prefere to have more stage choices then purely FD and battlefield.

like in melee I prefere yoshi story due to small blastzones and small platform height because I main falco, but I also like fountian of dreams because of the moving platforms fucking up players who are more technical then me. I tend to avoid FD because of chaingrabbing and I don't laser as much as I should.

in smash4 however I would rather pick Smashville or Town&city due to platform movement helping my MK.

however, I don't see the reason for removing hazards entirely. while halberd isnt legal in PM just due to it having a lot of stages that are potentially legal that work better for more characters, it is a decently balanced stage after removing only the claw, since the laser and canonball both are entirely avoidable.

doing something like removing the wind on dreamland is fucking dumb since the wind helps with spacing and is a part of the stage.

Well I think Sakurai should have made Battlefield versions of stages in addition to the FD versions (I don't play on FD, but the visuals of some stages' Omega Forms make me play on them. Same thing would apply to me for Battlefield) personally.

But as for your question I guess they like the layout of some of the stages? Which is fair enough I guess but removing Whispy Woods from Dream Land 64 or the tornado from Hyrule Castle is bullshit.

The claw starts moving erratically for around five seconds and then pauses for one second before it attacks.
youtu.be/xil8OpLSYhE?t=1m58s

Jesus

I still think my ideas have some potential for a good Sm4sh mod, at least in making it stand out as something unique rather than just putting in melee mechanics before building everything else around it.

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it also chooses either player randomly

Well the pause is your cue to dodge, so if you dodge and it goes for the other guy since you're both dodging he doesn't get to punish your dodge since he's preoccupied.

You really don't get it, do you? Games are designed and balanced around the features included in them holistically. Different difficulty settings are intentionally designed to provide a certain challenge. When you ask upon a players to make their own challenge by ignoring elements in the game, that doesn't have anything to do with the design of the game's challenge - like it not being designed around you blindfolding yourself. The game should provide a good challenge without the player needing to make one up for themselves, and it failing in that regard can't be fixed by just ignoring elements.
Which doesn't change the fact that competitive Brawl relies on more "exploits" than Melee ever needed.

breaking up the fight entirely makes it a terrible hazard

JUST MAKE THE LOW TIERS HAVE KILL SETUPS, AND MORE OoS OPTIONS, AND BETTER FRAME DATA

WHAT MAKES A HIGH TIER GOOD IS THE AMOUNT OF OPTIONS THEY HAVE AND KILL SETUPS

Also get rid of Lucina.

Also bring back Yoshis Story stage from Melee

That is exactly the kind of person behind the mod, as you've seen in my earlier posts

Your ideas don't seem too hard to implement (>>9462854 looks easy enough), so I'll see if it's viable. Dunno how I'll get back to you on that, maybe I'll make a thread

basically
Good balance benefits all players of all skill levels, not just competitive players.
I don't see what's so awful about bringing up the standard for characters. see: Melee SD remix.
some physics tweaks wouldn't hurt, but you don't have to go full melee autism with it

do that

don't let PM fanboys even intimidate you and their preach for an actual PM successor

especially how Big Brother PMDT keeps going around telling people not to do this and not to do that

just few nights, there was another unreleased PM asset "leak" at the discord and hooo boy you should've seen it (see 8ch.net/v/res/9379452.html#q9479946)

There's no need to use healing rooms, there only there if you want to use them. Stop making excuses. If you die too many times in NSMBW do you force yourself to use Super Guide because it's optional yet "blindfolding yourself" to ignore it?

Care to show me a Melee tourney with no wavedashing or shine-spamming?

I'm user for a reason. I don't have much more to say on what I'd like, other than target combos could also be an air thing for some characters and/or make DI extremely aggressive or weaken it against certain launching moves, dependent on character speed and their viability following up, so Ganon's smashes would have less possible DI than Fox's for example.

There's also no need to use upgrades or executions in nuDoom but that doesn't stop the game from being designed and balanced around them, resulting in a poorer, incomplete experience if you don't use them and a shitty experience if you do use them.
Again with the false equivalencies. The Super Guide literally just there to be a handicap. The rooms in SSE are there to serve an actual function - save, warp, customize or swap characters - and the entire layout and balance of the map was designed around this. However, in doing this, they made the game far too easy with how often you can heal, and if the only way to properly challenge yourself is to ignore them entirely, you ignore the other functions that the game designed around you not ignoring, and thus giving you an incomplete experience for ignoring them.
What the fuck does that have to do with the argument?
But just to entertain you, here's a Borp.

There's only four save rooms that let you warp. Since these offer all the functions, you could skip the regular save rooms and only use the four big ones. You still some get the experience of using them without the ease of having too many.

That you should stop pretending Melee's hardcore, well-balanced tourney fighter.

One guy. Hell, the fact that Borp is notable in tournaments for the reason of "plays without exploits" kinda highlights that fact that Melee revolves around exploits.

You're missing the point. The game is still designed around all of the rooms, and ignoring the rooms just to make it actually challenging is not a point in favor of the game, but rather one against it.
Deflecting after being proven wrong? Gotcha.
Melee is still better without those "exploits" due to stronger core mechanics - you'd pretty much get 64 with slightly less hitstun and higher gravity. You don't need them to play Melee well, but in Brawl with it's weaker core gameplay you practically need the exploits to play in a way that doesn't result in degenerate, completely campy playstyles (if the people playing are any good).
No, plenty of guys. He's just a prominent in particular due to his reluctance against using any of those "exploits". Some of the best players in the world are similarly known for playing well while using tech in very sparse situations compared to other, more technical top players (Shroomed, Mango, PPMD, Lucky, etc).

The entire reason we were talking about exploits was because Melee Obsessives try to use them as proof for why Melee's a deep, competitive masterpiece, so no, you just forgot the original point.

Again, show me a tourney with no exploits being used.

I don't use exploits or campy playstyles.

Why would you make a mod and have what was originally in the game be the default? You might as well not have the mod then.

PM had auto L-cancel. It was right in the options and you could just switch it on. On the note of Falco. Despite just making him a clone moveset wise, he might as well been SF4 Ken. They play pretty differently. I loved juggling people with up-tilts, spiking them to the floor with a down-air, shine them to knock into the air again, and then spiking them. It was way more satisfying than throwing the reflector out. Also the boot F-smash was much more cool than the Brawl wing slap. I think they could have kept Fox's Brawl F-smash though.

The point of the mod wasn't to change stages, user.

Why does this matter again? You might as call many arena shooters bad because they have bunny hopping. Most fighting games are now shit because combos were an exploit in the first place. Thing is, these exploits added more depth into the game and aren't cheap since nearly every character can use them. How useful it is depends on the character and player.

Still, Melee might as well have 5 characters and Sm4sh is boring to watch/play. That's why I liked PM so much. Easier to play than Melee and nearly every character was good. Enough gimmicks to make casual play even more fun than Sm4sh and Brawl. And still fast enough to still allow you to do crazy shit. Then Nintendo (or was it Konami?) silently killed it off from behind the scenes.

Yeah it was to make it more competitive. Honestly I don't know who Sakurai was listening to when he came up with Omega stages. I don't want 30 Final Destination clones with different boundaries. Frozen stages would have made way more sense than turning everything into a flat level with no platforms.

People don't just play Omega stages because they are redundant.
FD already exists.

As far as hazards go, the consensus is that the players should be playing against each other and not the stage in a tourney setting.

Omega mode's implementation was a mistake. It really should have just been a hazardless/gimmickless version of a stage. Even fucking playstation all-stars managed to get that right.

Because Melee elitists act like their game was designed that way on purpose.

I play Omega stages since I find FD meh but like the aesthetic of some of the Omega stages.

Or you could leave those stages alone and play on hazardless ones instead of forcing your no-fun allowed rules on all of them?

Considering wavedashing was discovered very early on, you wouldn't be satisfied until I showed you 2002 Gamestop tourney or if I gathered a bunch of people as stringently opposed to tech options like Borp to make a tournament. Either way, I don't see what this proves. I could ask you to did a Brawl tournament without exploits and there would be the same result - nothing - because when people want to win they'll use all the tools at they're disposal, unless they're also trying yo prove a point by not using them.
The last part matters there.
Either that or you're definitely not playing to win.

But L-canceling was intentionally put into the game. It's even in the manual. Wave dashing is simply an exploit. Sakurai didn't think anyone would use the momentum you get from air dashing into the ground for an advantage. It is an exploit as much as rocket jumping or abusing the bad AI for robot masters in Megaman games. Again I don't see why it matters to you. Just play the game the way you feel like it. Elitists are dick heads and should be ignored anyway.

You play omega stages but then call people who would rather shit to not get in their way while fighting "no-fun allowed rules"? Some people just want to have a variety of platforms without you fighting the stage instead of the opponent. That's what omega stages were made for, but omega stages are mostly FD clones.

FD favors characters who don't need platforms to play well. Not only that it limits vertical combat and recovery options. People want those variety of platforms from other stages, without having to fight the stage its self. These are the type of people who have more fun figuring each other out and besting each other with tactics they developed themselves. They don't want to go in for the finishing blow just for the stage to finish them off for them. It can be anti climatic really. Saying that, one of my favorite stages in PM is Bowser's Castle. Throwing people under the thromp is always hilarious. But I do like the variety of stages with platforms that can really change the way you play, but not shit that just gets in the way of the fight.

If your game's potential is based on a bunch of development oversights it's safe to say it was made to be a super-legit tourney fighter like they claim it is.

I never said it wasn't, but there's a tonne of other things they use that weren't.

That's exactly what I've been saying the entire time.

Because they use these exploits as "proof" as to why their game is so deep and shit all over other Smash games for not having it to the point where they treat that damn autistic mod Project M like a real Smash game. Before you ask again why this matters, it's because this attitude turns every Smash thread into a shitfight where the general attitude is don't bother posting if you play anything after Melee that isn't PM.

I know this already. That's why I said there should have been Battlefield versions of each stage too. It's not much a stretch either considering four out of six of Melee's legal stages are Battlefield and Battlefield rip-offs.

Counter-point: One time I was playing on Corneria and meteor-smashed someone at the front of the ship, and just as they were plummeting downwards the Great Fox's cannon fired and hit them. Shit was awesome.

The thing I don't get is people were making a Smash-style game to cater to this and you guys didn't support it and now it's cancelled.

Not to avoid hazards though.

Fuck that.

What smash 4 needs:
Half of the cast is fucking bad. Balance upward, so they're actually competitive
The neutral in Smash 4 is awful. It's just trade, run away, trade, run away, trade, run away, etc. Let Noobs get combo'd.
I'm not saying we need wavedashing or anything, but at least make dash dancing viable.

This will never happen, because Sakurai just nerfs shit that does well, instead of wondering why 3/4 of the cast gets fucking bodied by a remotely competent player with a "good' character.

Good one.
Something was fucked in every patch.

Uh, no, it's because his mental game is god-tier.
I've actually played him. He kicked my shit in because he understands the game at such a fundamental level. He actually can wavedash and what-have-you, but he doesn't do it. He's more comfortable with his non-technical playstyle.

Let's try Ken vs Bombsoldier back in 2005. Melee wasn't too technical back then. Still some "wavecheating" but no multishining.
Bombsoldier, the best player in Japan, kicked Ken's ass and pretty much only lost because Ken could chaingrab and Japanese players didn't know you could do that.
Also:
Dank Meme.
Wavedashing was discovered in testing and was left in the game. It was intentional. Here's an old interview on Brawl:

The only reason it wasn't in later games was because he wanted to lessen the skill gap, not because it was an "exploit."

L-Cancelling was intentional as well.
In Smash 64's official documentation, it was called "smooth landing." It carried over to Melee, but instead of cancelling the attack's landing animation, it just halved the duration of all landing animations.
web.archive.org/web/19991117180837/http://smashbros.com/moves_advattacklanding.html

It sounds like you have a serious case of needing to git gud.

Yeah, that's an exploit.

Noticing a curious side-effect and leaving it be isn't the same thing as purposing implementing something. He left in the game because he didn't think it would be used the way it was. In hindsight that was a mistake and he should have axed it.

Never said it wasn't. It sounds like you have a serious case of needing to learn to read.

I hope its not as pretentious as PM.
Also I hope it adds every character and stage from Smash 4

Oh, let's provide a counterargument to the "tech skill makes you good" that's not Borp.

There's a player that goes by Dark that was way ahead of the curve when it came to techskill.
He's had that shit down pat, but even scrubs would beat his ass on the reg because he wasn't good. He could wavecheat, fun-cancel, and multishine, but he didn't know how to use any of them.

The point is that Bombsoldier still almost won with top-tier Falco play. In fact, if he knew about the chaingrabs, he could've done DI mixups to throw Ken off and likely won the set. He was just a nobody that happened to be really good.

No, he knew it would be. Take note of the date at the top of this page:
nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/0928/index.html
September 28, 2001.
好きな方向に短距離移動でき、
工夫のしがいがあります。
In english:
That last section might just be important.
Creative use of airdodge leads you to the wavedash. He hinted at wavedashing. I think that speaks volumes.

Not me, i still can't understand why anyone would try to make this casual game competitive.

You're trying to convince me to buy the Wii U without waiting for a Project M 2, right? I'm not going to claim that the games you have given me are not good, but they aren't what would convince me to buy a Wii U on their own.

>>none of the game before the extra world matters
Tropical Freeze is not meeting the standards set by its predecessors decades ago. Some of the best platformers work almost as extended tutorials for their optional content (Super Mario World, Dustforce, etc.) so it's detrimental to a game to skimp out on an area like that.

None of which is enough to convince me to bring out my money for this game. You will never see something like Extra Mario Bros made on this game engine.

boring person detected

Autism, user. Autism.

What's the fucking point of this? PM was some really autistic amateur shite, if they want Melee so much then go and fucking play it.

Yeah, I think I'll just keep playing Melee.

No, just that it has good games.

I don't really know why I bothered. You unironically want there to be a Project M 2.

perfect decisions anons