I know just a tad about the Black Panthers, and there is something about them I find baffling.
Newton also wrote in his autobiography, "I tried to transform many of the so-called criminal activities going on in the street into something political, although this had to be done gradually." He attempted to channel these "daily activities for survival" into significant community actions.
What "so-called criminal activities" is he describing. Gambling, prostitution, drug dealing? I don't know.. and how could these become "significant community actions"?
Can anyone provide me with examples of this community activism?
and here's their ten point plan for discussion as well.
Dylan Hall
Well I suppose that the point was to take these kinds of crimes and make them into something that the community does to survive in trying times, and something that they ought to have a right to do when legitimate means of supporting themselves have been effectively denied to them. In short, they want to legitimize these activities.
Easton Lee
I think he was just talking about overall gang culture in the black communities, not one particular activity that could be used for political ends. These were groups created in order to keep the authorities away and protect/maintain criminal activity. A similar structure could do that in order to protect/maintain revolutionary activity I guess.
This is actually a common theme in black radical politics of that time, apparently. That novel and movie, The Spook Who Sat by the Door, were about one guy getting proper military and intelligence training and then returning to the ghetto to train the local gangs and transform them into militia units. James Carr speaks about doing the same in his autobiography. Kwame Ture, even later in life, was talking about black organized crime like something can be shaped for revolutionary purposes, and he used Mao as an example of someone who successfully did this.
Brody Fisher
...
Ethan Sullivan
It was alleged that Newton had his fingers in the Oakland criminal underworld and took a cut but I doubt that is what he meant…
Brayden Hill
Also OP here's a bit from Black Against Empire to help illustrate:
So gangs worked as de facto institution in poor communities, but they also needed their approval in order to survive and also drew their members from those ghettos. The Panthers thought this symbiotic relationship had revolutionary potential. And even the most selfish, apolitical gangster still had common interest with the revolutionaries in their dislike of police.
Brayden Miller
Wouldn't criminal gangs be considered Lumpenproletariat in Marxist theory?
and while such people would certainly have some useful skill sets would they be capable of revolutionary class consciousness?
"According to Marx, the lumpenproletariat had no special motive for participating in revolution, and might in fact have an interest in preserving the current class structure, because the members of the lumpenproletariat usually depend on the bourgeoisie and the aristocracy for their day-to-day existence. In that sense, Marx saw the lumpenproletariat as a counter-revolutionary force."
Angel Miller
Not even Lenin followed Marx to the letter m8
William Gomez
I dont see how gangs that risk their life to make money are "lumpenproles" IE proles dependent on the bourgeoisie for survival and quite happy so.
Gabriel Reed
Old joke and not a productive contribution to this discussion. Thanks for playing.
Liam Martin
First, lumpenproletariat is not exactly a term Marx and Engels gave much thought to. It was thrown around in their analysis of France to help describe the sociology behind Bonapartist workers. But that's a side note.
To answer your question, no, being Lumpen is more of a mindset than any particular activity you're involved.
Hudson White
...
Jaxon Hill
Who do drug dealers and pimps do business with? I imagine it's people with some surplus wealth..
Jordan Peterson
Please elaborate on this mindset.
Angel Kelly
Most of the gangs are not high level thugs, just like how most of society is not the general or factory owner. The vast majority of the people in criminal activite are grunts like sidewalk dealers (especially blacks who sell in their own neighbourhood) who sell to non-porky cunts, the hookers themselves, people who rob random stores etc.
The few people on the level of maffia leader like the top fish in the drug chain or the pimp of a a dozen hookers are far and few between, and generally don't live in the hood themselves anymore.
Drug dealers who sell to the upper class are often (lower)-middle class kids who happened to grow up with or near the upper class, so they don't stand out, but they dont have lots of money so they will risk to sell drugs without lots of the "hood violence" problem. At some point they get fucked by a mistake or get a pharmaceutical degree.
Levi Hernandez
Basically, wage-earning people who, in periods of crisis and instability, are inclined to support the reactionary movements that appear as a response to that instability. That's more or less the context of Napoleon and the context of the period when the term was most widely used, which is during Fascism.
Juan Stewart
community building while slinging crack and shaking down shop owners? What kind of community is that?
Xavier Nelson
lol you have moral beefs with something doesn't change the history. And that was long before crack.
Jason Watson
having*
Jack Ramirez
m8 have you read your Marx?
Evan Ross
I have "moral beefs" with capitalism. sure my approval or disapproval of something doesn't change what it is,, but I'm not supporting things that I find morally questionable.
and yeah,, crack was not around yet,, so what did the Rangers sell,, speed? downers? heroin?
Juan Reed
Bits and pieces.. I did need all of the communist manifesto, but that was a long time ago.
what does Marx have to say about pimps?
Aiden Myers
Pomps are bourgeois as fuck, they literally do nothing else but exploit their workers.
Lincoln Cook
Yeah, that's my opinion as well.. I don't know how "pimping" became a word for cool. I imagined them as terrible men who find run-a-ways, force them to sell their bodies, and then threaten them for money.
Completely baffled how such an activity could be made into a "significant community action".
John James
better than what preceded that.
Anthony Sullivan
Okay, let's break it down.
1. They have that and what you got was Detroit
2. >IT DOESN'T MATTER IF I'M A WORTHLESS NIGGER WITH NO SKILLS, HIRE ME ANYWAY MUHFUGHA
3. Niggers don't have anything worth taking in America
4. Section 8
5. It's called modern social sciences in pretty much all Western universities
6. Want all that shit but won't lift a finger to finger to fight for it, typical nigger
7. Gus boo who dindu nuffin
8. Yeah, that will work out great when you let all the nigger rapists and murderers out of prison
9. OJ Simpson
10. Just more gibs
Got anymore for me, leftycuck?
Parker Lee
What preceded it?
Luis Young
No one is asking you to support it. The point of analysis like that is to look into cultural and social organizations, their relationship with current structures of power and how this shapes their mentality. Basically, the sociology behind it. Not to take one particular example and make it a dogma or main tenet of our current praxis. So relax, no one is going to send you to the ghetto to convince drug dealers to join the revolution because Huey wrote something like that half a century ago. His theory was informed by his reality and his experience, ours by another.
And please, deal with this instead of trying to sidetrack the argument asking one stupid question after the other.
Andrew Smith
Don't go blaming that shit on black people and black culture. That's porky's doing, Hip-Hop and Rap was revolutionary as fuck before the 90's gangsta rap error.
At it's worst before Snoop and Tupac it was harmless dance music a la MC Hammer. Hell even some of MC Hammers songs promoted civics.
Gabriel Fisher
absolute poverty, complete domination by state authorities who destroyed any community attempts at development.
no community projects like local fairs and entertainment, food pantries, community health education and clinics.
shit the city didn't even collect trash!
Michael Harris
Yeah. I'm not a fan of that ten point plan either. I wouldn't describe it in the terms, you used, but I do think it's terrible.
It could be satisfied by placing blacks on reservations, which would remove them from society and probably not go while for their economic and cultural advancement if the Native American Reservations serve as an example of what happens.
George Lincoln Rockwell, the leader of the American Nazi party was a big fan of this plan.
Logan Phillips
I don't think he says its a black thing, the word "pimp" is associated with black americans. In the netherlands we have other words for it, two to refer to the kinds of stages.
Pooier is a regular old pimp
Loverboy is a younger pimp who prays on young girls through seduction tactics.
Zachary Bailey
you have no understanding of global capital and what it means to be exploited. even if you moved every "black" person to their own country they would still be the slaves of capital they are now.
Eli Evans
the 10 point plan is pretty badly formulated
Then they should have made a better plan. Right now its nothing more than "Full employment blacks only capitalism".
Bentley Campbell
Really? I'd like a link about how every black community in America was like that.
I've read different stuff, I've read about the strength of the black churches and thriving communities like Bronzetown in Chicago or the harlem renaissance in the 1920's.
Alexander Kelly
What's wrong with the ten point plan? Black people would probably be better off in a separated society free from exploitation by white bourgeoisie, brutality by white police, imprisonment by the white mans' criminal "justice" system, and conscription to fight the white mans' wars.
Black people are simultaneously victims of global capitalism and racism. At least black separatism could partially fix mitigate the racism. Whites would probably like it too.
William Green
oops
Ryan Stewart
Yes it would make such a big difference for the people.
Kayden Howard
Oh the cartoon triggered you,, sorry I did not mean to imply pimping whores was black culture. I am of the opinion that sexual exploitation is a terrible thing whoever does it, and it is sadly universally found across cultures.
Aiden Miller
It wouldn't cure the ills of global capitalism, but it would at least partially insulate black people from the effects of white racism, and serve as a step on the path towards socialism, I think.
Daniel Miller
And the effects of "white racism" are? Being imprisoned due to a for profit prison scheme and not being able to climb out of poverty due to social immobility resulting from the economic system in place? How exactly would this change if you kick out whitey?
This literally is the same as saying "we need white only countries to achieve socialism because otherwise the dumb workers will just blame niggers and jew and be nazis", but with the races moved around. And yes, there is actual people saying this line of thinking on leftypol.
Hunter Torres
yes, the "separate but equal" argument for segregation. The problem is the communities would not be equal. Blacks would be isolated from political and economic power, and probably a lot of educational opportunities as well.
and the society as a whole would lose the future potential of the black community since it would be sequestered.
I guess I like the "e pluribus Unum" ideal.
Levi Cruz
Could socialism be easier to achieve homogeneous places.. easier to focus on social class without "spooky" distractions like religious and ethnic differences? Maybe a greater sense of unity…
Am I a bad person for thinking that?
Jayden Flores
First: I'm not black.
My view is that blacks are especially hard-hit by the effects of global capitalism, like incarceration for profit and extreme poverty, because some whites are also out to get blacks due to racism. There is a great amount of entrenched anti-black racism in the US, stemming from the slavery era. I think there is a greater degree of racism against blacks than against other minority groups in the US.
I honestly think blacks would be better off if they were given reparations for slavery and allowed to be "separate but equal" in some sense, at least while we still have capitalism. The black proletariat will still face capitalist exploitation, but they won't have a bunch of whites who are out to get them because they hate black people.
Carson Ortiz
You're not a bad person for thinking that, it is easier to do it after you remove all the spooky shit.
But then you need to do womens right, gay rights, trans right, pedo rights, christian, mormon, atheist, male, little people etc etc
The fucking list of things we need to fix in society never ends (nothing is every perfect) but in the meantime porky continues to fuck everyone over harder and harder.
Never implied you were.
They would be separate to be in the same position as now, but with black cops instead of white ones. Unless you give some of the black population a bunch of factories, they would not be equal to whites, because they are poor.
Also, I highly fucking doubt the % of white people in positions of power that live their lives according to "fuggen niggers".
Logan Morgan
But under a separate capitalist system where would the capital come from to develop and advance the black community.
There are prosperous black people but per capita there is a pretty big gulf between them and the rest of the nation.
It is my opinion, that the segregated community would be disadvantaged.
Liam Martin
Did you just call the BPP progressive liberals?
This was the Pan-African movement and it was a failure.
Jace Cox
I call the desire for black only capitalism progressive liberalism.
Gabriel Martin
1. Vague, non-actable 2. Unreasonable I me mine shit. I'd like full employment for my people too but there are socioeconomic factors. There are other factors than racism at play here, and the current quota system erodes the ability of working folks of other races who are equally skilled to find gainful employment. 3. Vague, non-actable 4. Reasonable but vague, come up with a floorplan or something. Probably doable. 5. We want white guilt. Schoolchildren being made to feel like shit about their ancestors more often will somehow mean some material gain for the black community. 6. Fuck you. You want equality under the system, that includes the draft board. You go into the fucking meatgrinder with the rest of us or into college like the rest of us to dodge the draft. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. The problem's totally the draft and not that it's used to force young men to die and kill in some rich man's war, amirite? 7. I want that too. What did you have in mind? 8. No. Some of them actually committed violent crimes. Reduction of excessive sentencing, abolition of private prisons and legalization of victimless crimes would probably cut incarceration rates down to people who need to be kept away from society. 9. Okay, as long as I can be tried exclusively by juries of my peergroup too. I'm sure it wouldn't result in kangaroo courts overwhelmingly favoring people by race and further entrenching the racial divides and under the right circumstances, allowing and even encouraging either of us to get away with murder. 10. Everybody should have that. Land's fine, I'd like some too. Bread pretty much everybody I know could use more of, so that doesn't seem unreasonable. Housing, see 4 and add another me too. Education, fine. Clothing is pretty broad but basic shit doesn't seem unreasonable. Justice is abstract, non-actable and one of those things where if people agree they're doing the social equivalent of signing you a blank check and have to do everything you say because if they don't it doesn't meet your personal definition of Justice. Peace isn't up to any one group or person, the government can't control what other governments or individials do 100% of the time, so it's not something anybody can realistically guarantee in good faith.
Pls make demands more specific, you come off like SJWs. t. broke burger honkey
eat shit shady businessman
Henry Harris
The Original BPP were non identarian and focused on class consciousness of all poor people and Blacks back in the day. They even had white members in the Party.
Quit sipping the hoover kool-aid
Gabriel Jenkins
Citation seriously needed.
Michael Smith
Oops, Accidental sage
Gabriel Davis
I was talking about the ten point plan which is basically socdem for black people.
Their ten point plan is a shit plan. Its too unspecific.
Nathaniel Brown
White "members" I don't recall that. They did have some white supporters,, one of the biggest was the leader of the American Nazi Party who was a big fan of racial segregation. He even took their Black Power slogan for his group.
Julian Lewis
That's actually what I got out of it too, it seemed like the only realistic way to grant these demands would be segregation or something like that. Anybody know if that's what the BPP wants/wanted?
fix site
Adam Martin
The Oakland Black Panthers are pretty much a rip-off of the Loundes County Freedom Party from Mississippi. They drew a black panther on their pamphlets and their slogan was "vote for the black panther". When those black panthers confronted Huey Netwon, long story short Newton was willing to fight to keep the name Black Panthers.
Prostitution, drug dealing, bank robbery and pick-pocketing.
The Crips were originally Community Revolution In Progress.
With rich-kid hippies who had no problem stepping foot into a black ghetto. When they said "kill whitey" they didn't mean skin color, they meant the "ruling class." They also shamelessly sold drugs to welfare recipients.
Pimps became the only symbol of success and a way out of misery for many people – even ministers in the church.
Jacob Torres
Oh hell no
Leo Ortiz
that is very very depressing.
Jack Flores
Oh and read this
"We believe that Black people should not be forced to fight in the military service to defend a racist government that does not protect us. We will not fight and kill other people of color in the world who, like Black people, are being victimized by the White racist government of America. We will protect ourselves from the force and violence of the racist police and the racist military, by whatever means necessary"
Caleb Perez
So Holla Forums support nigger gangbangers now?
Brayden Gomez
The gang leaders are bourgeois and the gang members blindly follow their leader.
Kevin Young
Stay dumb as fuck Holla Forums.
Not the definition of bourgeoisie, but I get what you're saying. At most they are lumpen, but the material conditions cause this.
Jackson Morgan
Well I meant in the cases they own a lot. Not saying they all are, most arent.