Where were you when based China btfo US?

Stop fucking promoting them, they are traitors to the revolution

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform

extremely free

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As soon as you have a government stepping in to protect shit businesses you have no longer got a free market. You've got what we have now. What Europe does. Propping up businesses that should be dead and letting new businesses shrivel up and die before they can get a foothold.

They can exist, big gov just doesn't want them to exist because if things are being traded at reasonable prices then they get less money out of their ludicrous taxes.

big business needs them to get big profits too you retard

So wouldn't abolishing big government help you get your communist shitopia dreams faster then because suddenly big business could face actual competition?

You need to stop buying into this meme that socialism = big government. Marxist Leninists are in favour of a centrally planned economy, but they aren't the only lefties in the world, and even most of them believe in limiting government power by ensuring that soviets and workers councils maintain a significant level of autonomy and economic power.

Not to mention that just allowing a totally free market would pretty quickly result in oligopolies, the driving down of wages, suppression of labour movements and workers rights, etc.

It would depend, obviously, capitalism would not be able to survive long without a state to manage class conflict and other things for it, but on the other hand I wouldn't trust that the big businesses wouldn't just set up another state, most likely worse than the one before.

It wouldn't have much to do with competition though, as without a state I see no reason for large businesses to use their power to rig the game in ways that were previously unacceptable thanks to the mediation from the state.

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de-centrailsation is reactionary by definition

read marx

…… Are you stupid or just retarted?

You didn't even read what you underlined.

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this is a whole new level of autism

this is what anarkiddies actually believe

Decentralized anarchy of production is only socialism if it's done through an system like syndicalism where the workers operate and manage the MoP democratically. Otherwise it's communism if it's organized in the framework of democratic, moneyless planning.

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Social democracy is based on a capitalist economy, how the fuck can it be socialist?

Democratic control and collective bargaining aren't the same thing. Bargaining implies negotiation with the bourgies who still own the MoP, control implies direct worker management over the enterprise with the bourgies torally cut from the equation, something that is not the norm under SocDem.

Did you? It clearly says that socialism is social ownership and that social democracy doesn't have that. It also outright says that social democracy is capitalism. I had no idea people this stupid actually existed.

Do you understand what socialism is? Decentralized anarchy of production is still socialism as long as the workers democratically and directly control the MoP. They don't do this under social democracy. This isn't no try Scotsman because that implies that I'm moving the yardsticks when they haven't been moved. You are just taking social democracy which doesn't have the characteristics of socialism, and just asserting that it does.

how the fuck about reading what i posted, faggot?

read your socialism article again, i pointed it out easy enough, stop shitposting for once and actually adress the facts instead of being such a whiney "m-muh scotsman" bitch

see above, again
read for once instead of losing your shit, faggot

read the articles, faggot

Explain how collective bargaining is the same as social ownership or democratic control.

I'm 99% sure you normally post with a stalin mustache flag.

I do not think those words mean what you think they mean

It is litterally state capitalist. The state oversees litteral capitalists who own the means of production.

Its litterally by-the-book capitalism where the state has the final say, highly regulated capitalism.

I dont really like what China is doing but I am going to learn Mandarin anyway, since it may help me out in some way.

READ YOUR OWN POST FUCK

I can understand liking the USSR but defending modern china is reactionary and autistic

Nono they have red flags so therefore it must be socialism right?

They seem to me to have really learned from the USSR by allowing limited capitalism.

They seemed to have realized to compete with the US they need to pivot toward more socialism. Which to me they've been doing.

They already did a huge purge of the most corrupt porkies. US media wouldn't be demonizing them if they weren't doing something right

Seems like the Chinese Communist Party is preparing to seize the MoP though.

They already make porkies selling in their country agree to these ridiculous disclosure agreements that basically gives all the plans and engineering to the party, so they can have state owned enterprises make the same product a few years down the line.

I really don't think the Chinese communists party is going to let porky abuse their country for much longer.

the USA also demonizes north korea and demonized the nazis. Doing anything the USA doesnt like doesnt make it good by default. The USA is just angry at china because its losing its hegemony, pax america is on its way out after they mostly won in the 90's.

Oh what china is doing is certainly a smart move if you leave out the socialist view and focus on china as an economic entity. Its using foreign inventment and cheap labour to gain massive in country infrastructure and capital while limiting its reliance on imports.

top kek

I don't understand how a country can be so economically successful but have people who live in shit and squalor and make less money than your average McDonald's employee.

Is this what Holla Forums considers a success? A capitalist society where the only people who benefit are the government?

hi CIDF

I was gonna post that 'how revisionist are you?/watch this/socialism with Chinese characteristics' comic, but I seem to have misplaced it, any comrade feel like helpin me out?

Now they'll let their own porkies to abuse the country

o7

(checked)
thanks comr8

to china

YAY we can replace the us imperialism with chinese flavored imperialism

But that's the thing. You have places like New Your City and Vancouver crawling with Chinese porkies because they're being persecuted by the Communist party.

I think there needs to be a better term for "State Capitalism" it seems to suggest that it still servers private interests.

There's plenty of examples of the Communist Party using State owned enterprises against the interests of capital. Like keeping steel plants open when there is WAAAAAAYYY too much steel on the market, so that proles can keep getting a pay check.

I'm not saying they're acting in the best interests of proles per se. But they appear to me to often at least act more in their interest then a purely private porky would.

There's a Ramen shop I go to in Phoenix that's owned by a Chinese porky refuge.

She doesn't speak any english, drives a 100k Tesla, and just over night set up this business. She's dripping in capital. And she's here because she's afraid of the party.

Believe me no one live in Phoenix unless they have too :^)

They do this because their existence threatens porky. Seriously how many despotic borderline failed states that are capitalist have developed a nuke.

The media doesn't care one lick about human rights or despotism. Saudi Arabia and a ton of African countries are nearly as bad, US media couldn't care less about them.

Haha, I'd argue they barely do this, but they sure as fuck don't do it to fascism over all. We wouldn't have Trump if they did.

I'm not defending them, but they've done a lot of things right. They're still around and as the chart showed they're on track to over take the West in terms of economic power.

You don't have to be a Chinese otaku to recognize that.

I don't know about their military power ever rivaling the West, but they are CERTAIN to run Asia in the next decade.

All the fancy jets and bombs in the world can't overcome geography.

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I guess limited relative to bugerstan. They still have most industries with significant state owned enterprises in them.

The US has a heart attack when ever you want to turn fiber optic networks into municipal enterprises.

chinese ppl do not participate in wars

It's confirmed. China is in fact a Libertarian paradise.

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disappointing in you comrade. a workers state, even a revisionist one, cannot be "imperialist", this is trotskyite bullshit. hell even "orthodox trotskyists" oppose this conclusion.

So what?
The internet is voluntarily™ censored.

yeah but they dont have oppressive forces like the epa. those smog villages where everyone gets cancer are a model for ancapistan.

Yes.
Our goal is to make Capitalism so shitty it can't continue. Social Democracy in the 20th century kept Capitalism on life support as the govt hid its contradictions. The USSR isn't here anymore so they can stop pretending, that's why you're wearing your flag right now.

Words exist in order to express things, Socialists and Communists and Anarchists throughout the 18th to 20th century have defined Socialism as an economic system where the Means of Production are controlled by the workers, whether Direct Democracy, Workers Councils, a Vanguard Party… are suiting tools to exert that control is where we disagree.
A Bourgeois State which recognizes property rights (Social Democracy and Fascist States, for example) can't possibly provide the structure for Socialism since property rights aren't bound or responsive to the worker's interests.
Saying
is merely avoiding discussion, if that's your definition of Socialism, Holla Forums aren't socialists and won't argue for socialism. Our "No True Scotsman" is in reality a Strawman on your part.

This literally isn't the case. Dengist/Leeist state capitalism might be bourg as fuck but it's made sure the standard of life in China has done nothing but cease to increase for literally everyone. It's why our western neoliberal capitalism is soon to hit the shitter and be replaced by this kind of authoritarian, hyper-statist capitalism; it's much more efficient and formally abolishes the illusion of capitalism and democracy being unseparable. Fukuyamaists can rewrite their end of history again for that, because I fail to see how capitalism could become any more efficient than that.

I reckon it's good, although every time I see it again I feel like there's things I should fix/add/remove…