What do you guys think of the current system in Rojava, it's so-called democratic confederalism...

not anymore
haven't you been following the news

It's bretty good if you ask me

Noice. Who drew this?

Rojava isn't a meme guys. It's the longest lasting of the LibSoc experiments and people tend to have a positive view of it. Hopefully other peoples in the region will look at what they have achieved and begin to implement similar systems. Even if they aren't the perfect Socialist state of Marxist wetdreams you can't deny that in a region torn with ethnic tension and tyranny, they have created a society built on ethnic co-operation and localized control over community life. (inb4 le ethnic cleansing Erdogan meme). I'd hope maybe the Palestinians and progressive Israeli's will be inspired by it in the future, for example.

I would really like to see something like Rojava take root in the USA. Bring the ideas of Bookchin and Ocalan to the dying towns and farms of the Midwest and Appalachia and turn them into democratically organized communes.

The major flaw is I don't see how anarchist forms of organization can supplant hierarchical bureaucracy for large, complex populations like modern metropolitan areas. But the value of a Rojava-style experiment in the American heartland would be incredible; it would shift the window of discourse away from reform, offer an alternative to the Right, and despook people about anarchism and the impossibility of non-capitalist forms of society.

It's not socialist, but I think they're making the best of a less than ideal situation.

And that's why they've been ordered out of Manbij and are refusing? Your meme is dead.

catgrill drawfag

Why do you say it's not socialist? Because private property still exists?

That would be great to implement different levels of organisation within a country. Communes for countryside, Glorious Marxist State in the cities, tankies and anarchists happy. Military coordination when under attack would be a nightmare tough…

Ignorant

Can't you niggers read? Who has time to listen to that shit?

lol, this is the first time I'm hearing any of these cities and names pronounced. I've been saying Okalan, Rohava and Sizzare the whole time.

There is on such thing as "state socialism".
The existence of the state presupposes a society ripped apart by classes and the dictatorship of one class.
The specific form of the state as the nation-state, specifically presupposes capitalism, no matter how "worker-run". Workers are perfectly able of running their own alienation and exploitation.

I know how to pronounce Ocalan, only because we were supporting the kurds back in the 90s.

You know.. When the Greek goverment sent him to Egypt and Turks "caught" him… It's not like it was CIA all along, or anything.

It's a good thing that DemCon rejects the nation-state then.

Alright let's call it government socialism you autistic faggot

W E W
It is literally a national liberation movement, to establish a state, which it has already done, and now it is building the "nation" aspect. I don't care what ideology they espouse, if they believe it or not.

There is no such thing as that either. Socialism has "government", kind of, but this government is everybody, and the "socialism" is not exerted from the government from above.

Besides, this has nothing to do with Rojava, as it has a state, and is not moving towards eliminating it, but cementing it, as it takes part in the inter-imperialist warfare of the region, with its own imperialist interests, siding with the US when convenient.

I'm not claiming they don't. I'm claiming its not socialism, or on the way to it. And if your argument is "it would be on the way to socialism if it weren't for reality", then you need to check to make sure you have even a hint of materialism in you.

These are all reasons why the communist revolution is an internationalist one, and cannot complete its tasks within one area. Not to say this even was a communist revolution to begin with.

forgot flag

Democracy as a system of government (where the individuals who make the laws enforce it) is a meme. Read Rousseau.

It's developed a system of communes based on bottom-up democracy, I'd say that's good enough if they manage to keep it.

It's 80% socialism as 80% of the economy is owned by workers and or society. That is the only practical measure we should be using. I will grant you it is not communism, as it is not stateless or moneyless ect, but it is the closest thing to socialism on a decent scale in the 21st century.

post proofs. And remember that the leftcom article you always like to resort to is full of inaccuracies and quotes from sources that contradict most of his points.

Which is why "government" was in quotes, I said "kind of", and nowhere did I say "democracy".

Democracy does not make socialism.

Socialists don't care if capitalism is "worker-managed", as long as it has value, it is generalized commodity production, it is capitalism.

see above, capitalism = mode of production based on the accumulation of capital. This is compatible with workers running production themselves.

no it isn't, it isn't "close" at all.

Socialism and communism are the same thing.

Marx has demonstrated how no stable mode of production between capitalism and communism can exist. Capitalism creates all the preconditions for communism.

They have fucking consulates in several countries
Their policies of "ethnic balance" for the officers of the "municipalities" looks like the sect system of, as this article even says, Lebanon and Iraq:
aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/08/rojava-libertarian-myth-scrutiny-160804083743648.html

They have already established a state, regardless if it is respected by all the other bourgeois states, (although they, especially via the UN, are moving towards recognizing them) they are constructing a nationalism, even if a multi-ethnic one (which is irrelevant)

theguardian.com/world/2016/may/26/us-military-photos-syria-soldiers-fighting-isis
imperialism related

This one?
libcom.org/library/rojava-reality-rhetoric-gilles-dauvé-tl#footnoteref1_09susfk.

Like to point out the inaccuracies?

*"municipalities" looks suspiciously like the sect system…

Ah then tell me oh great leftcom, as I me and no one else on this board is a true socialist™, describe to me your precious utopian communism and how you would achieve it

I'm not a utopian socialist. I don't have a grand overall strategy beyond the basics for what communism is. I don't have a plan to impose upon reality. Communism is a real movement, what I am saying is that the kurdish national liberation movement is not part of it.

The kurdish national liberation movement does not "abolish the present state of things" it protects them.

I'm aware, but that is how Rousseau defined the kind of government you are describing.

That wasn't my point and you knew it. The point is that having a government carry out the laws legislated by the people directly is better then the people carrying it out themselves.

Value and commodities are not inherently bad things. The social relations represented by a commodity and its price can be changed by changing the method of production. With reforms to advertising and without the capitalist class, value can come to mean that what is produced is actually benefiting society.

Capitalism has nothing to do with class! Got it!

It's not 1916 anymore faggot, socialism has meant a transition into communism for almost a hundred years now.

Yes, because Marx and Bordiga were right about EVERYTHING

then what is?

This is factually inaccurate. An municipal based politics, secularism, gender equality, and an ecology based economy would be revolutionary in the middle east right now.

I'm not describing a "kind of government". When I say "everyone is involved" I don't mean voting.

Wut?

No they can't. Only specific relations create value, changing those relations means getting rid of value.
Value is the process taken by labor which cannot become directly social. This is what value is. "Value" which benefits society is a contradiction in terms.

I didn't say that. I said "workers" which is a class. The place of the bourgeoisie would be taken by the combined activity of the workers in running the co-ops/state/whatever. Marx himself said the bourgeoisie simply personify capital, and he was right. Workers may alienate themselves. Think about what capital is. It is the separation of producers from the conditions of production, their reduction to "workers".

In which case "socialism" cannot possibly refer to a stable mode of production. It refers to a period of flux without any way of reproducing itself and can only move towards communism or back towards capitalism.

So the term "socialism" is meaningless in that case to refer to anything useful.

But that isn't what socialism is being meant to mean, it is being meant to mean some mode of production between capitalism and communism, one which doesn't and can't exist.

I didn't say that. I said he demonstrated something, not that he asserted something, It isn't right because he said it was so. its right because he demonstrated it to be so.

The movement to consciously intensify class struggle and arm ourselves with a critique of work and capital.

There is no such thing as "revolutionary in the context of [certain part of the world]". Capitalism is a global system which can only be defeated globally.

Something can only be revolutionary if is revolutionary (meaning is a movement to completely negate the current system of social reproduction and replace it with communism) in the context of world capitalism.

I'm aware. You mean they are carrying out the law, as in executing it.

So we're advocating for the same thing even though you are being a pedantic autist! Got itQ

Or is this just more society isn't individuals stupidity?

You've yet to explain this logic. Clearly we just need a mode of production that eliminates the capitalist class so we need not worry about them stopping the progression to FALC or a similar mode of production.

Then explain how it has been demonstrated.

And the Rojava revolution doesn't accomplish this because….?

Yeah sure

So basically you're just going to sit on your ass until worldwide revolution lands on your lap in a silver platter. Good to know!

No, I don't. Who said "law"?

No because you are talking about preserving value, which means preserving the current social relations.
I have no idea what you are trying to say…

FALC isn't a thing.
And automation to the point you're thinking will never happen in commodity society, run by capitalists or workers. Only profitable production can happen, unless it is temporarily funded by the state, which will eventually reveal itself to have created no profits and simply further dug the market economy into a ditch.

Profit comes from living labor, as the growth of dead labor (machines, etc.) outpaces living labor (workers who have sold their labor power and create surplus value) the rate of profit goes down. Eventually no production unit can profitably engage in production, and production ceases (read "society falls apart"), the solution is the widespread destruction of capital (starting with variable capital [read "world war which kills millions of workers and destroys large amounts of social wealth"])

At no point is there any negation of capital or work.

Dis gon need new thread
But I'll explain it if you give me some time.

The class struggle is against the state (even if organized on a "libertarian" basis), the bourgeoisie (including the petit-bourgeoisie), capital (value in self-expansion, even if the result of workers or the democratic state), etc. Rojava presents no critique of any of these things in terms of action.

W E W L A D

ebin strawman

It'd be good if Rojava actually practiced it. In theory, Rojava is a one-party state run by the PYD, and whenever people try and protest or opposition parties try and organize, the Asayish roll out the machine guns
youtube.com/watch?v=nCRUrqVBtVk
rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/160820161
trtworld.com/mea/kurds-in-syria-protest-oppressive-policies-of-pyd-166928
worldbulletin.net/middle-east/176150/syria-pyd-abducts-head-of-kurdish-national-council

*In practice

someone please tell me this isn't true

Sure fam. If the YPG are terrorists they're awfully incompetent.

Smart. Here's why:

aranews.net/2016/06/rojavas-peshmerga-forces-refuse-to-join-azaz-battle-to-avoid-confrontation-with-fellow-kurdish-troops/

Other Kurds are generally counter-revolutionary. The KNC and KRG, especially the latter, are on good terms with the Turks, who wish to hobble if not destroy Rojava. The YPG fight alongside us special operators, but they're too few to dominate the YPG militarily. The KNC forces could exercise unwelcome leverage if they were allowed to join.

They have cooperatives, communes, and their own parliamentary system. It's already more democratic than most of the West. Political opposition outside the revolutionary party is not legitimate; it's counter-revolutionary. This isn't a case of another democratic confederalist organization protesting, it's the KNC: "a coalition of Syrian Kurdish parties generally at odds with the PYD". Fuck 'em.

>aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/08/rojava-libertarian-myth-scrutiny-160804083743648.html

Read rudaw.net/english/opinion/11082016

Define a state. What they've established in Rojava is nothing like the Leviathan.

>theguardian.com/world/2016/may/26/us-military-photos-syria-soldiers-fighting-isis
This entire argument is inane for multiple reasons. Rojava has it's own interests pursuing and solidifying their revolution. Accepting assistance from ideological enemies does not automatically undermine that goal.

>libcom.org/library/rojava-reality-rhetoric-gilles-dauvé-tl#footnoteref1_09susfk.

Read roarmag.org/essays/zapatistas-rojava-anarchist-revolution/
Nothing in the history of leftism has ever been as impotent as left communism, and the fact that left-communists think they're in a position to criticize any leftist movement while accomplishing even less then them is laughable.

Two brothers found dead in a well, were last seen being arrested by PYD security forces.
twitter.com/24Aleppo/status/769524983328600064

gtfo

really m8?

I'm sorry, if I find any PKK releases on the people they forcibly disappear, I'll let you know.

Don't be salty. Why should anyone trust this source as reliable? You post a completely unknown source and expect people to automatically accept it?