From a leftist perspective, what is it about Islam (especially Sunni) that makes it so subversive to western capitalism and liberal democracy? Why is it that Islam is able to deconstruct and resist Western hegemony when other religions cannot?
Also, do you think a "reform Islam" or liberalized Islam will ultimately take away Islam's subversive qualities and water-down the faith so it's consistent with imperialist, western values?
Communism and Islam aren't compatible. Accept that LeftyPol and fight Islam with other religions.
Why not?
Because Islam is about upholding muh tradishun and spooks and leftism is about abolishing spooks.
who cares, communism as a whole will abolish religion.
You can't have a class consciousness without a national consciousness. Islam can provide a national consciousness as it already is.
National consciousness is the antithesis of class consciousness. Islamists and nationalists are the enemy.
Pic of pro-islam nationalist related.
Socialism is Islam with all the sensible bits removed.
Elaborate pls.
you can't do anything and claim that just because you're not 'western' (the west isn't even the uncontested center of global capital anymore) that it's anti-imperialist
nationalizing oil? anti-imperialist
invading other countries to build an empire? NOT ANTI-IMPERIALIST
enslaving ethnic minorities in the country? enslaving women? murdering gays? murdering apostates? fuck you I can stand for some things as universal human values, and you can't hide behind identity to justify barbarism
Responsibility for the system in Islam is place in the hands of Allah. Doesn't matter if you think Allah exists or not; either case leaves you with an incorruptible entity in charge of the system. Islam also charges the community to care for one another without ignoring the innate laziness of many.
Money.
Money money money money money.
The Muslim Brotherhood literally bought off the leaders of the corporate left. The corporate left is centralized because unity is so important! So no one is allowed to criticize the Brotherhood because the people at the top are getting a few hundred thousand dollars.
What did he mean by this?
This is from welcome to the desert of the real btw
Zizek is right: white liberals who insist Islam is inherently pro-liberal are bigger Islamophobes and orientalists than right-wingers who claim it isn't.
I think you mean Shia friend.
Because of a combination of strong decolonial thinking that blended existentialism with Islamic tenets coupled with the fact that many facets of the Capitalist apparatus are incompatible with Islamic social ethics. That isn't to say that their social ethics are perfect, and in many cases they are just as bad or worse, but they clash on enough key issues to be more opposed than not.
Because starting with Iran they understood how to attack Western colonial power structures without being open about it. It winds up looking very, very bloody and unethical because it is.
I thought it would circa arab spring, but the lack of centralization makes that less of a possibility.
More subversive than other religions? Nothing, inherently. If you are surprised by the state of the modern Islamic community, you need a history lesson.
There is no such thing as a "reformed" religion. Either ideology matters in faith or it doesn't; you can't have both. Western Christians, especially in the US, follow almost none of the faith, it's just cultural symbolism, same goes for most Western Muslims.
Trying to reform a religion is what led to the greatest religious wars of all time between Protestants and Catholics. It is what ISIS is trying to do. The only way to neuter religion is to make is obsolete through agnostic sectarianism, but no one wants this because people are too attached to their own spooks to recognize the problem.
Unfortunately, atheism in the first world has become Calvinism without belief in an afterlife.
Saudi Arabia and Qatar are big investors.
Ever since Western states stopped investing in schools and hospitals, we Westerners rely heavily on Arab money.
This is the reason why our Head of States and Governments regularely do pilgrimages to Davos and Doha.
Cuba is what a country looks like without investments. Thanks to the US embargo, they still drive cars from the 50ies (and this is blamed on communism). You don't want to end up like Cuba now, won't you?
Don't fucking kid yourself. You want to imply the corporate right is different?
The loyalty of corporate scum in general is, always was, and always will be with the money.
Muslims take their religion seriously.
deep brainwashing associated with a population of literal retard.
>do you think a "reform Islam" or liberalized Islam
no, unlike Christianism there is no cleric or leader in islam, there are many faction and everyone will interpret the scriptures as they please.
second, a fundamental doctrine of islam is that you can't modify or alter the scripture in anyway, its supposed to be valid for every places and times
what are imams then
how is that different from almost any other religion, the catholics killed fuckloads of people for heresy, especially when christianity was mixed with native religions
there are 12 of them in every town and each one of them will say whatever they please.
according to islam, other religions have been altered, corrupted.
I take it you've never read an orthodox bible.
Catholicism is more about the doctrine of the church, huge difference.
Only shias can be communist tbh
Curious why do you believe Shi'ite's can be communists?
sounds pretty typical to me
reason doesn't matter famalam
neither had the catholics i guess
not any different from the endless snowflake sects of islam that mostly fall under shia and sunni
How is this any different from when liberals say something isn't True Islam? I'm genuinely curious.
Not him, but Shias have a certain concept called "ijtihad" which is basically that it gives the ability to use one's own independent reasoning to interpret Islamic doctrines and change them in the current political context. Zizek even praised it as "dialectical"
Unfortunately the ayatollah who is currently in charge claims that this concept only applies to highly learned people like him, but the irony is that that opinion is a result of his own ijtihad!
Also Ali ibn Abu talib was a proto-socdem.
Was raised Shia btw, so I can answer whatever questions on the faith you have. Not an expert on it though, obviously
SocDem =/= socialist
If anything, Islam promotes class collaborationism.
It seems kind of silly how all of these tiny distinctions exist when a Muslim is a Muslim insofar as they believe in Muhammad as the prophet.
If anything it's as if Islam is so resistant to political diversity because it's already been politicized.
Did you not read the first thing I wrote? I don't hold the opinion that Shi'ism is a socialist religion (or that any religion is socialist) but using ijtihad one can argue that socialism should be implemented to Shias.
Well thank you for clearing that up. I am non-Muslim and didn't really know about that.
If that really is the case then I can see where there can be legitimacy in implantation into Shia.
Huh so anyone could technically use ijithad as a legitimate change to support Socialism?
Yes, and it has. The leftist groups who played a part in the Islamic revolution used ijtihad as legitimacy. Unfortunately they were unable to gain power and the Islamic republic purged them
Again, I am NOT saying that Shi'ism is inherently socialist.
I understand, though it is unfortunate they were able to gain power. It would have been interesting to see what had inspired.
But I get what you are saying Shia in itself isn't inherently socialist but it does have a way for Socialism to be implemented into the religion.
Normie question here, but how does (westernized and secular)women dating non-muslims go with the families and social circles? I was briefly involved with a muslim qt and she broke up with me because she said her family wouldn't approve of her getting with a (ex)Catholic.
I should also mention that sunnism also has ijtihad but unfortunately it is plainly stated that only highly learned scholars are capable of it.
Wheras in Shiite sources the concept that only scholars can do ijtihad was developed by scholars themselves almost 200-250 after and originally everyone was allowed to do it. In other words it was itself a result of ijtihad.
Which means, and not a lot of shias know, religously they are not required to follow an ayatollah to do thier ijtihad, and they can freely decide to not wear hijab or something. You'll get imprisoned if you say this in Iran though lmao
Religously, it is allowed but culturally it isn't always approved.
There's nothing traditional about islam
islam abolished pagan traditions and is only subject to nature/science and gods law
You'd be surprised. Rome had a habit of buggering about with dogma.
Interesting. I guess if we did use Religion we can have those Shia and tell them that they can itijhad.
More comrades willing to make a change the better. Funnily enough at one point I was thinking of Islam as a religion for myself.
so how is it not perfectly christian, if from a conservative point of view, to kill people for heresy? catholics even fuck kids, it's christian islam
the prophet [pbuh] was against capitalist economics
How is Islam resisting western capitalism? Saudi Arabia is at the same time the most radical islamic country as well as the most capitalist country in the middle east.
I was unaware the Prophet was against capitalist economics. Then why do the Saudis a capitalistic monarchy? Wouldn't that mean they are going against their Prophet's beliefs?
Same former Shiite guy here. The prophet was not against capitalism because there was no capitalism. He was against monetary inequality and usury and was a proto socdem.
He was radical for his time, but now I believe Muslims should move past them
Also, the Saudis are salifists/wahabis which is a distinct sect that followed the teachings a Abdul wahab who advocated to suspend ijtihad and follow all teachings literally with no consideration of society and also to emulate the prophet by doing shit like brushing with a stick and wearing those stupid beards without mustaches which weren't even real Islamic teaching, just products of the culture at that time
Lol, the Sunnis are in the pocket of the US, Iran at least pretends that it is subversive unlike the Saudis.
I see your point, I think it has to do with Islam being political, while Christianity and Buddhism explicitly reject politics (Render onto Caesar what is Caesar's etc.). Christianity had to find a way to work within the Roman Empire, as Buddhism did in India and China, but Mohammed made his own Empire so he didn't have to. There was always a line between ecclesiastic and secular law in Europe, that never existed in Islam until Europeans brought that view along. Every other religion is almost purely spiritual so rarely do political movements emerge from them. Though Christianity should get some credit, Martin Luther King, Liberation Theology , and Christian Anarchism etc.
I don't see "reform Islam" taking off, there are liberal Muslim thinkers but they mainly exist to be paid by politicians to say nice things whenever Muslims do crazy shit. Maybe if the Islamic World benefited from Western Imperialism it could take off, but aside from a few wealthy ones in the KSA and other gulf states it just means death and violence and poverty.
Fighting Western Imperialism isn't good in itself though, Islam is shit. Pretty soon Rojava will spread throughout the Middle East and Western Imperialism will be resisted by democratic confederalists fighting it with ecology and gender equality instead of making women dress like pacman ghosts.
I mean, they believe that literally every word that came out of the prophet's mouth was divinely guided so when he said shit like "dude you should brush with a stick" or "dude socks made with leather are the best" or "dude the beard + no mustache combo was cool as fuck" or "dude men should always wear white robes Imo".
Any normal person would think shit like this was just random shit the guy said right? Now go meet a Saudi cleric and see he has a long as fuck beard, always wears white robes and leather socks and has rotting teeth because HE BRUSHES WITH A FUCKING STICK
I know I have a lot of questions its the fact I never gotten a chance to speak with someone from the Islamic religion even if they don't follow it anymore.
So its the US backed Saudis promoting wahbais which is why the Middle East seems oppressive as hell. This toxic ideology it what has been creating this mess to begin with. All to fight Communism…just a thought about that.
I'd throw my support Rojava any day. At least these people are trying to free people from their oppression from the Turkish "We want the Ottoman Empire again" Government and their funded terrorists.
Haha, well it is even more interesting than that my friend. So Saudi Arabia was actually founded by the British backed house of saud. (which is why you'll find some Muslim calling it saudi-occupied-Arabia.)
After oil was discovered in Arabia, they began to sell it for dirt cheap to the British and eventually America, and so we've always kept them well funded and supported.
The funny thing is, Salafism and wahabism would have been what it was before the house of saud was put into power, a stupid and cultish sect only practiced by a few hundred.
But the Saudis, with all thier money offered free Islamic (read: Salafi) education to aspiring scholars from Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan, and all the rest of the dirt poor Muslim world. And these people, educated in the completely retarded ideology of Wahhabism taught it to the people of thier home countries and paved the way for acceptance of the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and affiliate groups in Pakistan
There is a sort of reduction of monetary inequality except between the sexes for inheritance or anyone who isnt a Muslim.
Like I said. He was socdem tier against inequality. And again, he was pre capitalist and obviously Muslims shouldn't regard him as infallible
This thread is fucking cancer
IslamCom is the new AnaFem
This. It's strictly forbidden for Muslims to give zakat to non-Muslims. Islam is basically national bolshevism.
Alot of so called lefties on leftypol have a some pretty bad bigotry under the surface. That's why they always fall for these and Anfem threads.
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The only reason why Islam is counter-cultural and "subversive" is because of those strict moral codes. If Islam didn't demand modesty, you wouldn't have the hijab and thus you wouldn't have the French freaking out over burkinis.
You can't have it both ways.
There is no god. If you don't understand that, you aren't a communist
Islam is fundamentally revisionist, sexist, racist, anti-scientific and warmongering. You and every muslim are an enemy of the people and should be gulaged like the conservative revisionist filth you are.
There's literally one guy
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How long before the right realizes how much they have in common with Islamists, and combine Islam with white nationalism to form Islam with Aryan characteristics?
what about the… you know, muslim clerics?
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
unless you mean pope. in which case, there's many christian sects that don't have them.
Islam, like Judaism and Protestantism, has no central authority, yet they have millions of little authorities. You could say all three religions are polycentric in their approach.
When will this meme finally die?
Yes, there was a lot of homosex during the Abbasid period but this was primarily limited to elites in Cordova and Baghdad. It's not like Palestinian or Syrian peasants were having gay orgies whilst working the fields for their feudal lords.
fo sho
There's a lot of homosex in Saudi Arabia, right this minute.
theatlantic.com
Read Apo
kill yourself.