Why the hell are infotainment systems in cars so laggy and their monitors have...

Jeremiah Green
Jeremiah Green

Why the hell are infotainment systems in cars so laggy and their monitors have such awful refresh rates. The most resource-intensive thing these things will ever run is Google maps. The refresh rates are the worst part, though. It looks like these things are running at like 20hz at most, maybe less. This is even for extremely high-end luxury cars that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I'm not sure if this thread should be on /o/. /o/ is dead anyway.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=MVjphhV5Tec
popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a5977/coasting-in-neutral-fuel-economy/

Michael Sanchez
Michael Sanchez

Because car makers buy from established autoparts vendors who are not primarily high tech companies. Delphi, Denso, etc. They build to cost and they spend years testing components before they ever get put in a car. AC compressors, switches, ECU's, etc.

So you end up with a reliable computer that was barely acceptable performance 5 years ago in a car today. Mix in some pajeet coded applications on top and you have a modern infotainment system.
The manual for my 2015 talked about pairing to a iPhone 4.

Charles Hernandez
Charles Hernandez

Because they don't give a shit most people buying these cars with this add-on pay for the feature and the people paying for these features don't give a shit either. Put in a new radio into your car.

Leo Garcia
Leo Garcia

Are you talking about the OS or the hardware? Hardware-wise, they're all crap.
In the software department, Apple Car Play and Android Auto are your go choices (I know, dire) because apart from the likes of Mercedes, they're all bullcrap.

Jason Ross
Jason Ross

The only part that's accurate is
build to cost
They get the cheapest parts they could find, and that's surplus old electronics that nobody wants to buy anymore. Also main computer and dashboard computer are two entirely different beasts. The latter is allowed to have poor reliability because it doesn't do anything important, it just displays shit.

Eli Williams
Eli Williams

Eh OP I don't even want any digital electronic shit in my car, especially under the hood. But as far as the head units go, there's no excuse not to use at least some cheap chink android tablet in there. For what they charge for it, there should be gaming laptop tier hardware.

Cooper Parker
Cooper Parker

is there a way to install a penguin OS in your own car?

Zachary Hill
Zachary Hill

You can swap out head unit for a normal tablet and attach it to the car computer over a USB-ODBII adapter. If you mean the car computer, then the answer is no. It doesn't have an OS to start with and I'm pretty sure putting Linux in 32 kilobytes of ROM is not possible, neither is running it off 2 KB of RAM.

Brody Cox
Brody Cox

Also chinks make android-powered head units.

Brody Fisher
Brody Fisher

It's the operating system.

Actually, it's more the hardware vendors fault. For
about 15 years now, the solution has been to throw more
hardware (memory, cpu cycles, graphics co-processors, and so
on) at the users. UNIX has the dubious advantage of looking
more like "a real operating system" to the microprocessor
crowd (who are used to CPM/MSDOS/etc).

So they think that by installing unix, it makes their
system into a "real computer". In fact, unix is just a
minicomputer operating system (at best). So what they end
up with is a box with more MIPs than a 70s mainframe, more
memory than a 70s mainframe, more disk than a 70s mainframe,
and a 70s minicomputer operating system. And it runs about
as fast as a 70s minicomputer, asn supports as many users.

The wonder is that anyone is surprised.

Mason Roberts
Mason Roberts

I wonder if you're the old Rustfag and after having become bored with your old schtick, you have now become the UnixHater.

Ryan Murphy
Ryan Murphy

Mercedes is becoming the king of infotainment.

Logan Bailey
Logan Bailey

And so is Audi/Volkswagen.
BMW is on suicide watch.

Adam Bell
Adam Bell

Put in a new radio into your car.
I'd off myself before I buy a car made after 2010 with all this electronic bullshit infesting it. Cars are meant to be machines, not computers.

Kevin Morales
Kevin Morales

Computers are machines. Maybe you would like to say that you want your car to be mechanical-oriented.
I think otherwise, in these past ~4 years cars changed so much that a crappy one today is better in every way (save horsepower) than a top car from before.
You have seen a completely betterment of interior quality, engine efficiency and simplification of design, good turbos, downsizing of it, various stability systems, better headlights, the list goes on.

Alexander Morris
Alexander Morris

New cars are botnet. Get an older car that you can fix yourself.

Isaiah Roberts
Isaiah Roberts

I can't nor do I have the time to fix anything nontrivial on a car, myself.

Jacob Williams
Jacob Williams

a crappy one today is better in every way except the most important part of them

You have seen a completely betterment of irrelevant, irrelevant and irrelevant, good turbos, downsizing of it, various garbage systems, better headlights, the list goes on.

learn how to not be a cuck and fix your own older car for cheap
alternatively, pay a shitload of money to fix even the most basic shit on a modern car because of the cost of maintenance has done nothing but skyrocket in recent years

If you're following the whole "time = money" thing, then you are objectively losing time.

Adrian Sullivan
Adrian Sullivan

digital instrumentation
all that glossy botnet shit
Putting turing-complete electromechanical calculators into automobiles was a mistake.

Colton Peterson
Colton Peterson

this is actually true for the most part. for some reason car manufacturers decided that they should start using electric solenoids instead of vacuum (shit like hvac) or hydrolic (automatic transmission), even though we could have been doing this shit since the 80s, so a lot of shit has been simplified, if not made more expensive, and theyre even using electric solenoids to control valves, so they can open faster than ever (higher RPMs) and even open twice in one intake or exhaust cycle, and of course variable valve timing is really easy now. Pretty much this means better power, better fuel efficiency, ECU has finer control over engine, and for the most part theyre simplified. New automatic transmissions have been simplified greatly, and have many more gears than older ones. The only problem is you have to buy a relatively new model year (2016+ for fiat chrysler)
but just to give you a comparison, my 4.3 vortec in my S10 produced 170hp when it rolled of the production line. 4.3l V6. it's paired to a 4L60E transmission that has 4 speeds. Chrysler's pentastar engine is a 3.6L supercharged V6 that produces 300hp+, gets better fuel efficiency, and is often paired with a ZF 9HP 9 speed automatic transmission, which is actually simpler than my 4L60E because of its use of electrically controlled solenoids. However, that being said, if my engine blows, there is shit tons of information on the internet, and it doesnt take any specialized equipment to repair. Plus, since its pretty much a small block missing 2 cylinders, there are a shit ton of parts floating around, both OEM and aftermarket, for cheap. The new chyrsler engines are cheaper to just buy a new one from chrysler than to attempt to repair, because they require specialized tools, plus knowledge, plus the tolerances are so insane you need specialized parts that look the same to the naked eye, but are different by a few thousandths, and the parts arent available besides going through chrysler (and good luck if you arent a mechanic that works for chrysler or a dealer, because youre gonna be paying that 20-30% markup on parts). However, for the most part the design is simplified, just not user serviceable.
t. son of chrysler certified master mechanic of 35 years

Lucas Rogers
Lucas Rogers

that car

Thomas Martinez
Thomas Martinez

You can't argue that pic related is best dash ever put into a car.

Adam Williams
Adam Williams

Thank you, someone who gets it.
Cars have been getting better at a slow pace for decades, but in the past couple years they jumped exponentially in all areas.
It's almost sad seeing for instance, a Mercedes S class from the earlier 2000 compared to a 2018 Honda Civic or VW Golf.
It just improved violently.
The retard above dismissed things as irrelevant, but he doesn't comprehend the magnitude of the improvements - cars became safer and safer construction-wise (and simpler, and lighter) and with things like ESP, AWD getting more mainstream, a massive improvement in gear box (this here improved a lot, holy shit, again, compare some Mercedes S class 2000 auto with some DSG VW, or with a CVT Honda).
That guy is just full of shit and is dismissing an improvement in the car's Radio (becoming a fully fledged, although still mostly crap infotainment system, which plays video, music from your smartphone, has GPS, etc etc) as a reason to shit on the whole of modern cars.
That guy is just a tryhard.

Anthony Martinez
Anthony Martinez

if you didn't make it with a lambo during the bitcoin bull run of 2017 you are never gonna even drive

Caleb Roberts
Caleb Roberts

Also main computer and dashboard computer are two entirely different beasts.
Hate to burst your bubble, but on newest models they're two VMs running on one piece of silicon. To save costs, of course
<what's Spectre
Oy vey, don't think too much, goy! It's certified to be safe!

The latter is allowed to have poor reliability because it doesn't do anything important, it just displays shit.
Shit like speedometer, fuel meter and everything that had separate control lights in older cars? Sounds darn important to me. Yes, that screen is controlled by the same computer.

Jackson Stewart
Jackson Stewart

I'd get anally raped by my cuntry's taxfags if I tried to cash it out at once like that, user.

Jace Morgan
Jace Morgan

car has bluetooth
no music over bluetooth
has ipod shit built in tho
FUCKING WHY HONDA

Christopher Gomez
Christopher Gomez

I believe his sperg-out was because of a case of "botnet" and "muh proprietary parts."
What kind of cars do you guys know of that would be a good match of reliability and low cost to maintain or fix defects?

Adam Robinson
Adam Robinson

Recommend me a car
Depends on your budget. For mortals:
Honda Civic (install Hondata)
VW Golf
VW Beetle (a Golf for girls, or if you make sex with your butt)
Mazda 3
Mazda Miata (if you're cool enough and not a nerd)
Ford Focus
You can't go wrong with these (new).
If you're buying used, then it's either Golf, Civic or Focus (make sure they're at least the current generation, as the 3 got mechanical overhauls, not only aesthetical).

Charles Roberts
Charles Roberts

danke mein freund

Lincoln Lopez
Lincoln Lopez

i have an S10. get the 6 cylinder. rock solid engine, rock solid transmission, super fucking simple, and super cheap. engine dies just toss another used one in. same with the transmission. do not, please do not, get the 4 cylinder, and if you have to get the 4 cylinder, make sure it has the automatic transmission. the both engines share the automatic tranny, and its rock solid, but they have different manual transmissions. the NV1500 (comes with the 4 cylinder) is a pile of shit. the NV3500 (comes with 6 cylinder) is super solid too.

Camden Kelly
Camden Kelly

not porting NetBSD to your car
youtube.com/watch?v=MVjphhV5Tec

Joshua Cooper
Joshua Cooper

Toyota hilux (carb model) with x220 touchpad
or toughbook if you plan on being on fire

Cameron Smith
Cameron Smith

How sad to think that a brand new entertainment system is beaten in responsiveness and ease of use by a 3.5mm to cassette tape adaptor in my 30 year old car.

I still don't know how these screens haven't been banned when the law is so anal about mobile phone use.

Carson Bell
Carson Bell

I wasn't using infotainment as a reason to shit on modern cars as a whole. I hate them for all the reasons the other user said, and because they genuinely feel worse. Drive-by-wire steering feels like SHIT. Absolute dog shit. Now I'll admit I haven't driven any modern high-end sports cars, but I've driven plenty of my friends' regular modern cars and the steering makes me want to vomit. You can't feel the road at all, it just feels like you're playing a video game on a cheap Walmart steering wheel peripheral. Also I'm triggered that manuals are slowly dying out because I don't like driving autos.

Ryder Hill
Ryder Hill

Unless you're getting a classic Beetle, DO NOT GET ONE. Not if you're wanting something easy and cheap to maintain. I drive a Turbo S and it's pretty fun and I love it, but it is literally impossible to work on. Trust me, this is not something you want to work on unless you like having to take the front end of the car off.

Wyatt Richardson
Wyatt Richardson

I had an old Volkswagen Jetta, and it's a complete cluster fuck under the hood. I thought Germans were supposed to be efficient. Get a Honda.

Joshua Bennett
Joshua Bennett

I think you've confused "efficient" with "cheap and easy to maintain". These are not the same things. These are not the same things at all.

Alexander Gutierrez
Alexander Gutierrez

While i agree that modern VW cars are universally shit, (if youre in the US, just fucking buy domestic or japanese, stay away from european unless you like being raped in the ass by parts prices), people make cars out to be these mythical beasts, when in reality they arent. all cars need the same shit to work. doesnt matter if its chevy, or a honda, or a bmw, they all work the same way. they all need fuel, electricity, cooling, etc. all engines are gonna have an alternator, a power steering pump (99% of the time), an AC compressor (99% of the time), a water pump (literally 99% of the time barring old VW and Porche engines), if its a longitudinal engine theyre gonna have a fan and fan clutch. there's always gonna be an intake manifold, and depending on if its an inline engine or a V or boxer engine theyre gonna have 1 or 2 exhaust manifolds, theyre all gonna have a throttle body, and if they have EFI theyre gonna have a fuel rail, if not then a carburetor. most likely theyre gonna have some form of EGR, and maybe an aux air system. they make have a distributor or a coil pack, but either way theyre all gonna have spark plugs. i highly suggest every user to rip apart a car, and then rip apart a different one, and see how many things are the same. shit just looks different.

Daniel Cooper
Daniel Cooper

addendum: all cars are gonna have brakes, whether theyre drum or disk, and theyre all gonna have hydrolic lines that lead to them. more likely than not, the lines are gonna lead to the engine bay to the ABS, which in turn leads to the master cylinder and brake booster. if it doesnt have an ABS then itll just skip that step. all cars are gonna have a fuel tank, and most of the time the fuel pump will be located in it. there will usually be a feed line, a return line, and in most cases (see: modern cars) a vapor line.

Christian Lopez
Christian Lopez

but no matter what, cars all work the same mechanically. shit gets fucked when you add in all the unnecessary electrical bullshit like heated seats, and radio and bluetooth controls on the steering wheel. electric locks and windows arent bad, neither is a radio, but stay away from all that other bullshit. HVAC controls up until probably the late 2000s is gonna be vacuum controlled, but even then it is gonna be like 6 lines.

Juan Turner
Juan Turner

I still don't know how these screens haven't been banned when the law is so anal about mobile phone use.
They're actually REQUIRED by law. Kinda. Starting in 2018, 100% of all new cars manufactured are required to have a back-up camera.

Brayden Sullivan
Brayden Sullivan

I was in one of the base model civics around the time they tried marketing that all their new cars have backup cameras. it sure had one, and an awful TN panel that was smaller than the size of the original iphone screen.
it's a fucking joke, I've seen nigger tier double din head units that do a better job with a $15 straight from chyna backup camera.

to top it all off, the car had nearly zero rear visibility

Henry Lopez
Henry Lopez

isn't everyone on Holla Forums an embedded systems developer?
go make those systems less laggy you fags

Daniel Garcia
Daniel Garcia

It wasn't this, was it? This doesn't look so bad.

to top it all off, the car had nearly zero rear visibility
Sadly, this is why I'm starting to be okay with back-up cameras. I hated them at first because I hate having a screen in cars, but at the same time, visibility is getting so bad. It's all these dumbass safety laws that require the car to be able to support its own weight while upside down. Combined with all these other regulations and luxury shit adding more and more weight to cars, this just makes the pillars bigger and bigger, reducing visibility more and more.

Isaiah Ortiz
Isaiah Ortiz

systems in cars so laggy and their monitors have such awful refresh
They rely on USB 2.0 to move the data around. Some of the limitations of USB2.0 speeds have been overcome by using two ports per module - one for "upstream" and one for "downstream" - but you're still limited by USB2.0 speeds. Anybody that's tried to watch a 1080p movie saved on external drive connected to their laptop via a USB2.0 connection can tell you it doesn't work very well unless the video is one of these shitty 2GB DVD rips.

reliable computer that was barely acceptable performance 5 years ago in a car today
That's the main answer to the question. R&D on all these stupid little media modules lasts 3-5 years.

The initial design phase can last 6mos to one year, then a solid year of testing (design validation, product validation), then a year of in-car testing. Automakers are a year ahead in their production. E.g., it's the start of 2018; 2019 model cars are about to go into limited production - 3K or 10K vehicles that are given to select automaker employees. These are often the cars you see going down the road wrapped in zebra-striped vinyl wrap or those black pleather bra type deals. These employees log miles and keep records of all the quirks and bugs that they come across in operation, which, depending on severity, will either get ironed out by the R&D teams before the full production run, but sometimes get left for the customer to get annoyed by.

One fairly recent example was a bug in a certain brand of vehicle. Every so often, at startup, the head unit would not recognize the SD card in the media module that had all the GPS maps stored on it. So, when the vehicle was first started, the nav screen would be black with the message, "No map detected," or some such. Oddly enough, this bug has existed in this exact form since the 2015 model. Only until last year when the 2018 models were in limited production did anybody start to care about it. It ended up being the head unit's fault. It wasn't giving enough time for the media module to respond when queried on the size of the installed card, so it defaulted to "no card". It was allowing 16µs instead of 1.6ms for the response - a misplaced decimal point.

They get the cheapest parts they could find
That's not at all true. The parts are fine when they're purchased. As noted above, they're two or three or five years out of date by the time they end up in front of you. They're cheap in the sense that, the module maker sent RFQs to various IC manufacturers, and they got a reasonable price on a minimum purchase quantity over however many years. They got a part for 10¢ that you have to buy off Digikey or Mouser for $10, but they have to buy a half million of them by 2020.

ICs are developed at a phenomenal rate these days. Manufacturers do limited runs of each successive design. They may make a million parts, for example, and everybody and their brother wants 5k or 30k or 100k. The part is discontinued, listed as obsolete, and production of the next iteration begins almost immediately. Whatever doesn't get sold ends up going for pennies on the thousand to warehouses that specialize in selling obsolete/discontinues parts (who may or may not also end up with the schematics and the dies for making more if/when the time comes).

They all have the same hardware behind them. Generally speaking, the brains of the operation is a 32-bit microcomputer with integrated CAN, USB, UART, ADC and DAC, and LCD drivers. Different auto OEMs have different requirements as to form factor, overall size, current delivery (for usb charging), etc., but the units are all designed and created by the same people in the same place at the same time.

two VMs running on one piece of silicon
Lies.

Nathaniel Roberts
Nathaniel Roberts

Anybody that's tried to watch a 1080p movie saved on external drive connected to their laptop via a USB2.0 connection can tell you it doesn't work very well unless the video is one of these shitty 2GB DVD rips.
LARP

Samuel Butler
Samuel Butler

I've driven a focus with that same screen. It's not awful, you're that meant to stare at it while driving just make sure some dumb shit kid isn't behind you

Mason Collins
Mason Collins

having "infotainment system" in car
enjoy your botnet, faggot
i mean literal botnet. those cars can be hijacked and controlled over the cellular communications they make out. refer for example to the uConnect vulnerability

Bentley Moore
Bentley Moore

This, really. Just get a new head unit, they come in every imaginable variety, from basic Bluetooth stereos, to Android mobos, to full 80x86 PCs, priced from $50 up to sky's the limit. Depending on your car's age, they can interface with the ECU, cameras, mics, and more if you want, but practically any car since the 1970s provides standard hookups for antennae and speakers. The only real compatibility question is whether the slot is single-DIN or double-DIN (don't worry too much about screen size, you can get some with secondary popout screens inside), and aside from the tedium of removing the console's faceplate bezel, installation is about like putting a disk drive in your PC.

all these dumbass safety laws that require the car to be able to support its own weight while upside down
Better than being smooshed when your frameless pressed sheetmetal body collapses like a ball of aluminum foil.

Lucas Adams
Lucas Adams

Isn't that what a roll cage is for? You don't have to redesign car with less rear visibility.

Jacob Barnes
Jacob Barnes

True, but nobody uses roll cages, same as nobody uses 4-point harnesses and other things they really should.

Zachary Lee
Zachary Lee

implying that every horseless carriage is powered by an internal combustion engine of some description

Michael Clark
Michael Clark

Shit like speedometer, fuel meter and everything that had separate control lights in older cars?
Yeah it's pretty fucking tetriary, it can all fail or go haywire and none of it will affect your vehicle's ability to go places. If main computer fails, you may get brakes that refuse to engage, motor that goes full throttle or stops and won't restart, digital power steering ripping the wheel out your grip, etc.

Grayson Williams
Grayson Williams

100% of sports car use rack and pinion steering. The sports-wannabe cars may feature power-steering, genuine shit has none.

Jason Butler
Jason Butler

motor that goes full throttle
I always get that when I don't look at the speedometer :)

Jaxon Baker
Jaxon Baker

You can't, they're DRM'd and Tivoized.
<trollface.jpg

Sebastian Torres
Sebastian Torres

Why the hell are infotainment systems in cars so laggy and their monitors have such awful refresh rates.
They're written in HTML and JavaScript.

Michael Perez
Michael Perez

you may get brakes that refuse to engage, motor that goes full throttle or stops and won't restart, digital power steering ripping the wheel out your grip, etc.
You just know that CIAniggers would love to be able to remotely hack into that computer through the internet-connected goytainment system to do exactly that to bad goyim.

Wyatt Parker
Wyatt Parker

Autos are the future gramps, even the early autos in the 60s were superior to any manual, you'll never shift better than a machine.

Isaac Robinson
Isaac Robinson

Semiautomatic shifts are the future you mean

Eli Adams
Eli Adams

Have they fixed the "crackers can remotely infiltrate your car's computers and disengage transmission/control steering wheel" problem?

Dylan Stewart
Dylan Stewart

You can't engine brake properly based on what you see ahead and you can't put it in neutral and slide down an incline.
Also you'll have to scrap the entire car if the transmission breaks because fixing it will cost an order of magnitude more than a manual would.
The only reason for buying an automatic is either you live in burgerland and would not be able to resell a manual, or you drive a taxi, or you're too retarded to learn how to shift properly.

Hudson Hall
Hudson Hall

Coasting down an incline in neutral does not support defensive driving. If you want to be a defensive driver who is always ready to react to emergencies, then you should be in a gear that supports engine braking. Coasting in neutral increases the risk of an accident.

Gavin Harris
Gavin Harris

Cant we have both?
Electric automatic small car for city related stuff
Petrol manual fun to drive car for the weekends

Austin King
Austin King

Once you drive an electric all thermal cars will feel bloated and slow

Jose Wood
Jose Wood

Putting car in neutral wastes fuel anyway. Apparently, the ECU doesn't inject fuel if you're in gear and letting the car go down a slope. I have no idea how that works, it's counter-intuitive to me; I used to think neutral was the lowest consumption mode of the car.

Easton Green
Easton Green

Why the hell are infotainment systems in cars so laggy and their monitors have such awful refresh rates.
(Java) Pajeets.

Aaron Lewis
Aaron Lewis

Includes CLI dashboard
Muh dik, that's awesome.

Kayden Rivera
Kayden Rivera

You can't engine brake properly based on what you see ahead
Downshifting instead of using your brakes is nigger tier, the entire point of brakes is to dissipate all that energy so your transmission doesn't have to.
you can't put it in neutral and slide down an incline.
You can put an automatic transmission in neutral

Adrian Thomas
Adrian Thomas

tfw getting a new ford focus hatchback sel
wish i could drive manual but i am not interested in the sport version

Henry Hughes
Henry Hughes

This all depends on the ECU anyway, some older cars turn off the fuel injectors in neutral. It's kind of tough to know for sure though. If you REALLY wanted to manually turn em off you could hook up the fuel injectors' power to a switch operated inside of the cabin but I would think the car would stall. Not sure...

Cooper Powell
Cooper Powell

What are opinions of Chevys? The new Impalas are nice looking

Jackson Martinez
Jackson Martinez

some older cars turn off the fuel injectors in neutral
If that happens the engine shuts down so I'm calling bullshit

Liam Jones
Liam Jones

disengage
not engage violently towards the nearest tree

Christian James
Christian James

you can't put it in neutral
But you can though, literally every single automatic transmission ever made has this feature.

Wyatt Martin
Wyatt Martin

The people demonstrating the hack to the journalist didn't mean to kill him, just show what was possible. They also turned the steering wheel and activated brakes.

Xavier Howard
Xavier Howard

Yeah, that makes sense to me. It's my understanding that engines idle at 1000 rpm and thus require fuel in order to maintain that rpm. I thought that fuel consumption was proportional to the rpm, so I'd keep car in neutral and engine in idle for as long as possible while taking advantage of inertia. I never expected to read that engines somehow use the motion of the car to maintain rpm with no fuel:

popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a5977/coasting-in-neutral-fuel-economy/

Elijah Mitchell
Elijah Mitchell

Whats the year cutoff for car botnets?

Luke Harris
Luke Harris

All cars are botnet
Get a horse

Jacob Long
Jacob Long

Build an electromechanical motorcycle, 100% botnet free

Gavin Morris
Gavin Morris

implying domestic animals don't come with (((pet microchips)))
All animals are botnet.
Just walk.

Isaiah Perez
Isaiah Perez

its so bright that you cant see at night because the windshield is reflecting all that light back at you
pic unrelated. i always post a pic so i get more (y o° ʖu °)s

Carson Gomez
Carson Gomez

tfw shoes are botnet too, come with microchips and sensors embedded into the sole