Is Zizek our bridge to Holla Forums...

like?

Democracy, probably

"Western values" heavily implies that the fact that they are Western is important.

Which isn't quite correct, rather its just that many western values are important in themselves, and not because they're western

Also I'm getting some major Deja Vu from this thread

Equity, women's rights

The values Zizek wants to export are those derived from the specific social and economic history of Western civilisation, mostly tied to how the West industrialised first, and how we've evolved into post-industrial societies before anyone else. Things like the rule of law, respect of difference, rights for women, and secularism are values usually associated very strongly with the Western tradition. These are essential things, and not because they just happened due to historical circumstance to have been thought up by people in Western Europe/whitey before other places.

Basically, scientific observations are scientific observations regardless of who makes them. Just because Marx was white and European doesn't mean his economics were wrong.

The reason this is contentious is that there is a trend of cultural relativism that contains the idea that certain values or ideas aren't universal because they've been thought of by Europeans: because "human rights" or "class struggle" or "marxism" or "secularism" are Western inventions, some people believe they cannot be applied outside of the West. "Postcolonial Theory" is especially bad at this, promoting a selective reading of history that ignores class conflict in favour of blaming everything on Muh Colonialism, basically idpol bullshit.

When it became equality of outcome and not equality of opportunity I stopped supporting it.

Thanks a lot for writing this post user. I've always been confused about exactly how relevant the fact that "hoomin rights" were derived from western thought, and reconciling that with my non-western environment. Unfortunately, what I see in my (Pakistan) where there is anger and annoyance that the west does so well economically, while we are mostly in poverty and live though crime and bombings.

And so, people who advocate for "western values" are seen as implicitly supporting them over "us". And most care far more about earning enough money to support thier families, and don't really care at all about homosexual rights, for instance.

So the only people who are able to get people to listen to them about building socialism and progressing and revolting are those who are "like us". Those who appear to hold the same annoyance for "western values" as "we" do

Also, there is a grey area that separates "western values" from "western culture". And I think you people as western socialists have to distill this more clearly. There is need, I think, for such values, but there also needs to be an allowance for us to mold it to our material conditions.

No.

Wanting to genocide people because of their race is not the same as thinking we should export values that promote stability and equality within the modern world.

you're not very bright are you?

No.

This is about Holla Forums tier.

You did what? When?

This is still 2016, right? Because if it is 2116 or later, then you might be right and I might've missed some stuff.

That user here. Please do explain. Also include a book or something that I can learn more about it

Why would you want a bridge to Holla Forums?

We want a bridge to sanity and logic.

Post industrial means that the service sector is larger than manufacturing. Relatively little manufacturing happens in the developed world anymore, and there has been a mass shift away from agriculture and manufacturing and towards the service industry and related fields over the past half a century.

So you don't think anything should be done to correct historical injustices?

Some posters here are ex Holla Forumsacks from what i've seen. Having more people concerned with classes issues rather than muh tribe would be a pretty good thing imo.

joking with Stalin's divine figure, is not a requirement for being a Stalinist, quite the opposite

tribal internet behavior and hivemind, not really bad thing tbh, we should build more of that, become a shill power of our own.

Why not define Post-industrial as "someone there wears pink shirts"?

Capitalists needed to "debunk" Marxism, and so they said "Capitalism is over. Economy is no longer industrial. Marx is outdated. You are living in Communism already. There is no need to be Communist - all they can offer, we had already provided." And, to prove it, "service sector" meme was introduced to the proles.

But is truly over? Because I remember that transition from agrarian feudal economy meant cardinal shift in economic relations. You no longer gave your landlord part of your harvest (as well as do whatever he demanded). You used money to pay him (and do whatever rich demanded in exchange for money).

Because Industry dominated the economy, and it needed fluid means of exchange. And so the importance of money soared so much, money did not needed to even have value - they are so desperately needed, that they will still be accepted. They simply need to provide ease of access (hence the bitcoin success) and transfer.

Now, I'd like to ask you, did we see a similar shift in economy since [whenever your "post-industrial" economy begun]? I certainly did not see any of it. The money are just as important and the stuff is being produced just as it was before. Economic relations are not that different from before. Not discussing Socialism here, for the sake of simplicity - the idea is that Western states went post-industrial.

Besides, making judgements based on national economy alone, while nation's economy deeply interacts with other nation's economies, is a bit presumptuous.

...

better than talking about supporting pol pot or hillary clinton tbh.

What's a good Zizek book/article for reading about what specific values he wants to export and why?

archive.is/qAMS8
archive.is/aZ01k

tl;dr: european values from the enlightenment and the socialist/communist traditions.

You misunderstand my argument. I am not arguing that the proletariat doesn't exist in the West, or taking some kind of weird third worldist angle about how western workers aren't actually workers because we don't do agriculture or manufacturing, or whatever, we have no disagreements with economics! Workers still have to sell our labour to the capitalist, that is the same. But the particular mode of production, how that has changed and altered social relations, class consciousness, ideology, these have changed over time. The West not only has economic power, but also cultural hegemony, and when talking about "Western" ideas I feel this is important to consider, but it is not central to the argument.

The argument I was making was that equal rights before the law, women's rights, queer rights, or even Marxism itself, are all things that developed from Western civilisation because Western civilisation industrialised before any other country. Because the West has hegemony over other countries, we influence everyone ideologically, even those other countries who have industrialised after us. Zizek believes that this can be a good thing, that the best thing the capitalist West can do is to spread these enlightenment ideals, that the West should export them to other countries and societies, that these things are self-evident and true regardless of the context.

Some people believe that these things, because they are Western ideas, cannot be applied to societies with different economic development or different cultural aspects. As an example, many people believe that socialist ideas of class conflict cannot be applied to places like India, because Indian culture is different from the European culture that socialist ideology developed in.

Yet, his view on western values and Holla Forums's western values are very different.

Zizek's view on Western Values are equal rights, anti-discrimination, democracy, welfare, so on and so on and so on and so on and so on. While Holla Forums's view on Western values are just Viking crusaders killing bunch of brown people.

I thought Holla Forums was too retarded to realize Zizek was commie and only liked him because he hates modern feminism

This. Holla Forums's view of .western values is Sharia law with Arabic terms replaced with viking sounding words.

you might call it 'capitalism with aryan charasteristics'.

Perhaps because in the west most of mass of people who'd have once been considered the group with the most revolutionary potential are as things stand massively put off by leftism or at least their perception of leftism.

protip, sitting here dismissing them as lumpenprole does not help you in any way.

lol no, large sections of the working class might be classcucked, but they are NOT stormfags

Their concerns are the same. Look at Europe. Those you here deride as fascist are making impressive gains, Brexit was won off the back of 'fascist' fear-mongering. The concerns over culture and migration are real enough for a large enough segment of the population that you'll be doing well to win anything democratically without appealing to them.

Kek

Well, that's non-Marxist point of view, obviously. I don't really understand why it should be argued against so thoroughly.

My point is "post-industrialist economy" is a meme.

Don't see any signs.

Mode of production is still Capitalist: you sell your labour.

Social relations: still deep within Capitalist structure. Granted, there is some aberration, when it comes to First World (everybody works and dies childless), but it's hardly relevant. And I don't think you want to present it as an example of Post-Industrial world.

Class consciousness: pretty much the same. Again - aberrations. This time directly tied to Soviet presence on horizon, but it's practically over. We are back in 20s. Or will be. In 20s. Back in 20s. Gah.

Ideology: literally the same. I'm of a mind to take articles against Bernstein, change the name to Веrnie, edit out anachronisms, and present for discussion somewhere.

Because leftoids are geeks that want to hang out with the cool kids

Because most of Holla Forums has right-wing tendencies and a lot are former Holla Forumsyps.

you're not very bright are you?

If you take any idea and feed it through Zizek it becomes confusing and inarticulate. sniff sniff

Because they're the ultimate lumpen and we need to learn how to wake those politically and preach class consciousness to them.

And also because as retarded as they are, they're effective; and as horrible as it is, chan culture is influential.

I seriously doubt this