Go on "leftist" board

I know the term "Tankie" has lost all meaning but you are referring to the guy shitting on market "socialism", right?

60 gorrilions were not. 3 million were documented in the ussr.

Every single marksoc thread is a yugoflag and some user vs stalinstache and some other user

Who's winning?

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The essence of modern day Holla Forums

the audience

ML get out

You have a long way to go.

That's what democratic socialism is, its a very vague term ranging from the US with a socialist economy to what they're building in Rojava.

You're thinking of Social Democracy, which is 2 degrees left of center until they get into power and turn into Liberals.

Every single person referring to themselves as a "democratic socialist" has been a socdem or left-liberal.

I still call myself that (until I know more theory to understand what I am exactly) and I want to end private enterprise altogether, so stop with the more marxist than thou schtick

And every single ML state that calls itsel socialist has been state capitalist :^^)

And do tell, what are the defining characteristics of socialism as opposed to capitalism

Workers control the means of production instead of the state, which replaces the capitalists

I suspected you would say as much. Well, excluding the fact that you left out a whole bunch of other characteristics (production for use instead of exchange, conscious planning of society, etc.), I want to really ask you what "workers controlling the means of production" means to you, as in, what would it look like in your ideal vision. On top of this, I also wanna ask you how the state replaces capitalists when it doesn't extract surplus value, and also where you get the idea that the "state" itself is a class, instead of a vehicle for promoting class interests.

The state planned and managed the economy, not the workers

What? You didn't even answer the question. You're not even clear on what country we're talking about. Do you mind clearing your head and responding a second time?

Fuck off statist

kek, thanks for the laugh

We think the Soviets killed much more because stuff like the 158,000 deserters shot during the war, and stuff like the Katyn massacre are missing from their records though we know that happen. Stalin most likely killed 8-10 million people.

Katyn massacre: 22,000 killed

+158,000 deserters executed (something btw legal and within the rule of military law)

+an average of 2 million DOCUMENTED victims of the 36-38 purge and Gulag victims throughout the Soviet Unions history=

9 million?????

You should dust up your arithmetic kid.

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Why don't you look at what historians say buddy. The same methodology we use to figure out how many people Stalin killed is what we use to figure out how many people the Nazi's killed. You can't be okay with one and not the other without being a hypocrite.

hypocrisy is a spook

Nice try Mr. Conquest

After they destroyed all the clear cut evidence

Read Apo

:/. So are you retarded?
He didn't kill 20 million but a minimum of 5 million is accepted and 15 million if you include famine. Most likely 8-10 million people excluding the famine.

Bump

sage

Holly shit I can't believe what I'm reading.

Also with regards to the purge

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#Mass_graves_and_memorials

Where did you dig up all those millions?

A number of Victims for Holodomor is 2.8-3.2 millions. A figure accepted by most western historians.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#Death_toll

MUH TEN GORRILLIONS

the difference is that the Nazi's were losing the war and it was an intentional genocide
the USSR had a bad famine they mishandled not the same thing

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Calculating_the_number_of_victims

That's not what I meant. I meant we know the Nazi's destroyed records of mass executions, so why do you think the Soviet union would not do this?

Leftists being useless hedonists are true tbh

No, that's bullshit. Unfortunately you can't always take a socialist for what they say they are, since everyone seems to define things differently. Some stalinists claim there was worker democracy in the USSR, some say a top down bureaucracy was necessary, and both call themselves communist. B████ says he's a socialist, democratic socialism confuses people who are socialists and want democracy… Semantics fuck things up because everyone lays claim to the best words despite disagreeing on their meaning.

You are best off forgoing labels and just explaining what you want.

Nobody blames policy for the precious 1921 famine. You should not be arguing over whether the 1932 famine existed or not due to poor execution of collectivisation and industrialisation, you should at least say if you think it was warranted or required instead.

There would have been no mass starvation had certain actions not forcibly been carried out.

Done on purpose, and done through gross mishandling and lack of caring about the consequences are two different accusations, however, and you shouldn't try to confuse the issue.

Stalinists will try to paint everyone's opinion as Stalin intentionally murdering 60+ million people through personal execution, where the situation is much more realistic.

Are you false-flagging?

The 60 million number is completely bullshit but if you include the 1932 famine you can get to around 20 million.

Spring of 1921: Bolsheviks introduce NEP, and do not "carry out certain actions forcibly".
Fall of 1921 - Spring of 1922: famine happens.

I see a certain fault in your logic.

Actually, I do.

There's still an additional 9 million deaths attributable to Stalin, as mentioned above.

I didn't even read this nonsense.

Do you actually take it seriously?

So explain to me: If the Soviets didn't record the Katyn massacre why would they record other massacres?

That presupposes that I agree that Soviets took part in Katyn.

What is this about? I can estimate over a 100 million dead under Stalin. Not including Germans/Italians/Japanese.

It's all a big conspiracy like the Holocaust right?
holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.ca/2007/03/and-now-for-something-not-completely.html

These guys are dedicated to refuting Holocaust denial, but even thought they appear to be left wing they did an article on Soviet Katyn denial and basically BTFO Grover Furr.

What?

Fuck you and fuck your lack of a single proper research of Katyn.
There were only three done:
- the Nazi one, under Goebbels (right when Nazis needed to recruit some Poles after Stalingrad);
- the Soviet after the war (with Polish representatives);
- the half-baked Polish in the 90s, that left too fast and refused to present any evidence. Only conclusions.

I'm not taking Goebbels propaganda articles as an undisputable evidence. Especially as the proof that they were massacring people by the millions outside of Katyn, as you literally did.

Do you really expect from me to continue conversation after this?

Forgive me for assuming you were like every other tankie I've talked to, who when I inquired about Katyn sent me a Grover Furr link about how all the documents implicating the Soviets in Katyn were forged.

Anyway, the Soviets were responsible for the first two, so I'm wondering why you think they only did the second one? They couldn't even get the Nazi's convicted at Nuremburg.

Mistyped that, I meant second and third*

And anyway, second katyn massacre isn't recorded, so why would others be?

What does this have to do with Holocaust? Do you no longer intend to accuse Soviets of secretly murdering Jews?

What are you even talking about?

There were three investigations of the site:
1) by Nazis in 1943, under Goebbels, who uncovered The Most Horrific Soviet crime ever.
2) by Soviets in 1946, under Burdenko, who said it was actually Nazis who did it
3) by Poles in 1990s (1991 and 1994/95), who fucked everything up and couldn't do the job properly, but said it was Soviets

Not the Nazis. It's been one specific Nazi. Soviets were unable to present the evidence that it was his troops, that he was in command and that he gave the order. Moreover, it was proven that Soviets themselves weren't certain that it was this specific Nazi - they had three versions. So the judge said - no.

>holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.ca/2007/03/and-now-for-something-not-completely.html
Okay. Does a wall of text actually prove anything?

Because we have three expeditions and supporting "evidence" presented by Yeltsin. That's it.

Did they find anything else?

These guys emailed back and fourth with Grover Furr about the documents, and reduced Furr to an ad-hominem throwing child.

I didn't say the Soviets did the Holocaust, but Holocaust deniers and Katyn deniers use the same techniques, especially regarding incriminating documents.

I'm confused by your 100 million under Stalin died? Like what?

This sounds like a very Stalinist excuse, whether it happened that way or not.
"It turns out they were Nazi spies" is a reappearing theme with stalinists when trying to wave away purges, murders, and political criticism.
Stalinists will also not be able to prove that the Nazis did the massacre, but they will certainly infer they did without a doubt.

So… How is this relevant to anything?

What documents? IIRC there was only Yeltsin's "evidence". No other documents were ever found.

Accusing Soviets of Katyn is retarded on several levels. Soviet might've had a habit of putting people into labour camps (which is hard to blame, given their situation), but it wasn't death camps, nor did they mass murder people, as Nazis constantly did. If there was no politics involved nobody would've even considered Katyn Soviet.

Suggesting that documents were hidden is also dumb. NKVD didn't hesitate to register all the hundreds of thousands executed before that. Why would it get extremely nervous about some Poles, suspect that their internal documentation might be uncovered by someone and destroy all evidence?

Like regularly died. You know? 25 years and WWII. Since Stalin is automatically responsible for everything (as the people from your quote assume), he clearly murdered them all.

I guess, you actually like US doing the same shit all over the planet on a grand scale. And you will not even dream of calling it Stalinist.

Either way, what are you even reading there? Official position should've been: there was no PoWs ever. Because there was no war.

Furr is the main proponent of Katyn denial.

Suggesting that documents were hidden is also dumb. NKVD didn't hesitate to register all the hundreds of thousands executed before that. Why would it get extremely nervous about some Poles, suspect that their internal documentation might be uncovered by someone and destroy all evidence?
Arguing from incredulity is also dumb.

No one ever said that.

What are you smoking? The whole USSR has been "main proponent".

Nobody simply tried to dig this nonsense up and pin it on Soviets, until Yeltsin suddlenly presented "evidence" that "coincidentally" justified his actions (dictatorship, disbandment of Soviets, suppression of Communists, use of army against population, and so on).

It's called Occam's Razor, not incredulity.

You need to explain sudden homicidal tendencies of Soviets, then explain what's with all the secrecy, and finish it with the explanation of why did the Soviets switch back to "labour camp" approach. Because they certainly did not massacre German soldiers - who were much more disposable, dangerous, hated, and drained bigger share of Soviet resources (unlike with Polish soldiers in 39-40, there was an actual war going on, with famine and stuff). That's three independent factors.

On the other hand, Goebbels always was a lying shit, while Nazis always were murderous fucks. There is only Yeltsin's "evidence" that doesn't fit the narrative (and only if you presume him to be reliable).

Did you even see "victims of Stalin" you've been quoting? The whole approach presupposes that Stalin was responsible simply because he was alive at the time it happened.

Stalinist needs to debate anfem and put xer in xer place to be honest.

Huh? Mate, nobody can tell what you are talking about half the time. Why would I call the USA Stalinist?

I was just reading from the website the other guy posted. You should at least read it before disregarding it.

Also the war we are talking about is the polish-soviet war. I don't know the Stalinist defense of denial that it ever occurred on this particular invasion, sorry. Generally they say that the Poles deserved to be invaded and such.

Remember we are looking for evidence here. Stalin and beria were liars and murderers to many people, too, remember.

guys we get it, the ussr wasn't as bad as the west made it look, but it was still shitty

Ah yes, I forgot how Stalin the Georgian killed all the ethnic minorities in favour of the Russian ethnic group.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union#Ethnic_operations
pls

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I'm constantly amazed at the sheer number of sycophants who pop out of the woodwork to suck off statist "socialists" and "communists" despite knowing next to nothing about them historically or theoretically aside from the fact that they aren't comparatively much worse than the states in power today. Which is not even remotely a positive statement about their value as institutions.

Anarkiddies please.

Actually, I'd say they know a lot. They generally always have dates, numbers and links. The problem is that they write off others as bourgeois, Nazis, spies, liars etc

Also they just agree with the idea that millions have to die. I think it makes it more real for them.

If you mean the youtuber, "Stalinist" is not watching youtube, unless he can't help it. Some leniency was given to Wolff, but even with him I switched to his actual texts real fast. I.e. unless you have transcripts, I'm not participating.

But anfem will have to answer some questions about Marxist Feminism. Eventually.

Because it does what you consider "Stalinist": "Police operation" in Libya, sudden "discovery" of WMDs in Iraq and so on. Meanwhile, Soviet shenanigans were much subtler and more grounded on facts.

The whole goddamn wall of text? When I don't really care about Katyn? Nope. Sorry. I'd better concede that whatever you are quoting might be correct.

But keep in mind that Polish soldiers shouldn't have been recognized as PoWs by USSR, since Soviet never actually declared war on Poland. In modern terms: police operation within internationally recognized Soviet borders. Not war. And that meant that it was impossible for Poles to be PoW.

From the Soviet PoV there was only one and it was Poland that invaded USSR. That was 1920.

People like to present some unbroken legitimacy of Polish state. However, by September 17 Poland did not exist in any practical sense. Government-in-exile started functioning (and got recognized) only by Dec 1939. And even then only because Winter War had begun and Allies decided they needed more talking heads.

I.e. Poland was de facto (and de jure, according to some treaties) - stateless territory. Whether or not it is "Invasion" is a political question, not historic.

Keep in mind: WWII was a fucking mess. And then everyone took the pieces they liked and arranged them in the order they preferred. Hence - wildly different stories of what actually took place. Things get omitted or re-arranged to suit the narrative.

The question was about evaluation of my argument. It is not "incredulity". And I'm not taking this bait about Stalin and Beria. Initial "discovery" was made by Goebbels, at a moment, when Reich really needed to separate Allies.

Are you actually claiming some knowledge beyond Cold War propaganda, while being rabidly anti-Soviet?

Anfem is a famous poster on Holla Forums who with her revolutionary debate skills and wits has triggered and won the heart of many woman hater sinners on Holla Forums and opened their eyes on the capitalist patriarchy.

thanks for posting that image
i went on Holla Forums the other day and there was no discussion of how to start a business or where the "capital" comes from from having a large legal business and not some tie dye shirt selling "business"
then there were at least 3 different IDs posting about how if you don't work for yourself you work for "the man" and you "get him richer while you might get 10% and ruin your body"

they never failed to mention that whether self or other employed you get the government richer the goverment that taxes you and lies to you and enslaves you in myriad ways

IDPOL nonsense that obfuscates the real struggle

I'll spare you the tears, I can never support a red star flag because of what they did to me.

So sex don't real, but class are real.

I'm sorry but a vagina is actually a material thing.