> Somehow used in more than half of all computers produced today and still...

Dominic Taylor
Dominic Taylor

minix3.org
Unfortunately, the MINIXCon 2017 conference had to be cancelled due to the small number of talks submitted

wiki.minix3.org/doku.php?id=roadmap
this page is not being actively maintained

Somehow used in more than half of all computers produced today and still falling apart at the seams. Funny, I wonder why. Actually, none of us do

Other urls found in this thread:

mail.coreboot.org/pipermail/coreboot/2017-April/084098.html
mail.coreboot.org/pipermail/coreboot/2017-April/084091.html
mail.coreboot.org/pipermail/coreboot/2017-April/084079.html
sta.li/
dwm.suckless.org/
awesomewm.org/
cs.vu.nl/~ast/intel/
blog.plenz.com/2011-08/statically-linking-dwm-against-x11-and-xcb.html
openbsd.org/policy.html
meltdownattack.com
googleprojectzero.blogspot.ch/2018/01/reading-privileged-memory-
newsroom.intel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2018/01/Intel-Ana
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX#Licensing
webcitation.org/mainframe.php

Levi Reed
Levi Reed

minix
used in more than half of all computers produced today
since when?

Jonathan Stewart
Jonathan Stewart

Intel ME

Dominic Barnes
Dominic Barnes

B-but how can this be?! After all microkernel is superior technology, right?! Right guys?

Angel Nguyen
Angel Nguyen

Since intel integrated it in the Management engine, literally almost all PCs in the world runs it.

mail.coreboot.org/pipermail/coreboot/2017-April/084098.html
mail.coreboot.org/pipermail/coreboot/2017-April/084091.html
mail.coreboot.org/pipermail/coreboot/2017-April/084079.html

Jose Moore
Jose Moore

The long view of history may tell a different story, but in 2003 it looks like Plan 9 failed simply because it fell short of being a compelling enough improvement on Unix to displace its ancestor. Compared to Plan 9, Unix creaks and clanks and has obvious rust spots, but it gets the job done well enough to hold its position. There is a lesson here for ambitious system architects: the most dangerous enemy of a better solution is an existing codebase that is just good enough.

Same for MINIX 3. Classic monolithic *nix, as mediocre as it is, is "just good enough".

James Gutierrez
James Gutierrez

"Good enough" for what exactly? DragonflyBSD has already caught up to it in terms of scalability, despite being a much newer and smaller project. I guess Linux is "good enough" if you don't mind blowing 1000 times as much developer man years.
Maybe it made sense to use monolithic kernel in 1991 when the best hardware the average dude could buy was an 68030 or 80386, but that was almost three decades ago. And on top of that there's not a whole lot more security problems that would benefit from being isolated, which a microkernel design is better suited for.

Wyatt Rodriguez
Wyatt Rodriguez

0punctuation

Matthew Hall
Matthew Hall

How retarded do you have to be to think that? MINIX is only used since Skylake, so that alone severely limits its numbers.
It's good as a joke, but hardly justifiable as a statement of fact on a Vietnamese wood-carving forum.

Liam Lopez
Liam Lopez

Plan 9 failed because BSD and System V were better than Plan 9. The kernel functionality was better. The desktop environments were better. The shells were better. They sucked (and still do) compared to a real mainframe or workstation OS, but Plan 9 was even worse.

Easton Reyes
Easton Reyes

They sucked (and still do) compared to a real mainframe or workstation OS
I'm interested as to what you think is a "real workstation OS".

Robert King
Robert King

I was wondering about this too

Jaxson Harris
Jaxson Harris

Maybe "LITERALLY ALL COMPUTERS run Minix!" is an overstatement, but it is present in enough computers to deserve attention.

Still

better

than

Reddit

spacing.

Gavin Morales
Gavin Morales

He said produced not computers in use.

Jordan Wilson
Jordan Wilson

Funny, I wonder why.
Cuck license.

Ryan Cook
Ryan Cook

muh plebbit spacing
reported

Austin Butler
Austin Butler

I'd rather have understandable text that is awkward to read instead of easily readable text that makes no sense.

Eli Cooper
Eli Cooper

This is so true. DF also has the added advantage that it's close enough to FreeBSD that porting is relatively easier.

Elijah Howard
Elijah Howard

You're black.

Hudson Price
Hudson Price

Obviously TempleOS

Jayden Sanders
Jayden Sanders

I seem to remember reading something about how including MINIX iniside the Intel ME violates the terms of the BSD license, making a legal battle a reality. Intel derserves to die.

Charles Howard
Charles Howard

You remember wrong, the whole point of BSD-style licenses is to allow for it to be used in proprietary software.

Owen Hughes
Owen Hughes

the whole point of BSD-style licenses is to allow for it to be used in proprietary software
As Linus said, BSD license is for the code, you don't care, even if it's forked and became better in some way. Obviously better license for smaller programs than the copyleft crap.

Landon Watson
Landon Watson

Thanks to BSD we have an all powerful OS controlled by Intel running at ring -3. But hey, at least it is "improved", right? Obviously number of installs is what software should be the goal number one. Copyleft would have given us the freedom to rid ourselves of it. Permissively licensed code is worse than proprietary software and only corporate shills and the retarded ancaps support it.
Linus would do everything for his corporate masters btw. Hand that feeds you and all that.

Nathaniel Watson
Nathaniel Watson

846038
Intel could use QNX or keep the pre skylake system. Also think about the countless examples of GPL infringements that makes Linux as bad as BSD and lawsuits push firms to use even less copyleft software, like Google did with Busybox or spearheading clang support for Linux compiling just for decrease the size of the toolchain.

Benjamin Ramirez
Benjamin Ramirez

Minix doesn't even have the advantage of having a noticably different user and development environment (like Plan 9.) It's just another Unix in a world that already has too many Unixes.

John Lopez
John Lopez

The BSD license has only one term: do whatever the fuck you want with it, as long as I get credit.

So theoretically all computers with ME should have a copyright Andrew Tanenbaum notice somewhere.

Daniel Cook
Daniel Cook

It doesn't. BSD infringement is also a nice achievement

Wyatt Parker
Wyatt Parker

Microkernels are really awesome in theory. The practice is shit. If there was an interesting microkernel os that was GPL v3 I'd install it on partition and play around with it, but I'd still consider it just a glorified toy kernel.

Brayden Wilson
Brayden Wilson

Do you think that GNU Mach is not good enough for you?

Oliver Flores
Oliver Flores

No. It's not interesting.

Xavier Hughes
Xavier Hughes

I'm not sure what you mean by an interesting microkernel. Microkernels are minimalist by definition. This means that microkernels are interesting by the virtue that they don't do more than what is necessary for the job they do.

Jayden Sullivan
Jayden Sullivan

0intelligence

Dominic Clark
Dominic Clark

This means that microkernels are interesting by the virtue that they don't do more than what is necessary for the job they do.

Which is exactly what any software should do everywhere.

Austin Gray
Austin Gray

If it has Mach in it it's shit. Even the people who designed it hate it.

Chase White
Chase White

no usb support
what do you think

Adam Clark
Adam Clark

nobody gives a shit about how "REAL" it is
if it runs like ass and has horrible software to back it up

Parker Cruz
Parker Cruz

Microkernels are going to get fucked hard by Meltdown. Switching address spaces on syscalls is bad enough, now imagine that happening orders of magnitude more often as multiple services communicate to do the work of one syscall.

Christian Martinez
Christian Martinez

You have this software, it's called Plan 9 OS. It is not a popular way to use your computer.

Lincoln Perez
Lincoln Perez

That's actually a good thing. You're supposed to implement USB drivers as a userspace service.

Zachary Mitchell
Zachary Mitchell

You're supposed to implement USB drivers as a userspace service.
This

Mason Flores
Mason Flores

Can't wait to use Minix3 as a desktop workstation with opensource stable software...

Kevin Lopez
Kevin Lopez

challenger
sta.li/

James Ross
James Ross

MINIX is supposed to be a "teaching OS" that teaches you how to write an OS. Not a replacement for UNIX. Also, Intel forked MINIX over 10 years ago, so it's fork is probably significantly different.

Caleb Murphy
Caleb Murphy

We will probably know soon, once somebody gets the source, or extracts it from the motherboards that half of the world uses and decompile it

Anthony Lopez
Anthony Lopez

sta.li is just a GNU/Linux distro without the GNU. Instead of GNU it's pure suckless autism. I like suckless but couldn't live without X.

Landon Adams
Landon Adams

MINIX and MINIX 2 are "teach OSes" (note: they are OSes in which the development is explained in a book from which you can learn, they are still usable and pretty good operating systems). MINIX 3 is a whole new deal. Entirely new kernel, userspace, and development process. Calling it MINIX is only a namesake if anything. MINIX 3 is a solid competitor to UNIX aside from the lack of hardware support (USB being a PITA).

Please stop spreading bullshit. MINIX 3 is not MINIX 2.

Joseph Thompson
Joseph Thompson

The desktop environments were better.
Perhaps.

The shells were better
No. rc is fucking brilliant, and to ignore that is to do a disservice to yourself and the developers. The problem is, UNIX was just good enough. BSD is irrelevant to the Plan 9 debacle.

James Bell
James Bell

stali stands for statically linked, what makes you think it cannot have x and graphical display?

Blake Anderson
Blake Anderson

Follow the suckless philosophy

Easton Taylor
Easton Taylor

graphical display
dwm.suckless.org/

Angel Ortiz
Angel Ortiz

awesomewm.org/
it is also funny that linux users are not able to distribute binary executable files (and sources) that simply run or even can be compiled on any system, because there are cancerous dynamic dependencies with unlimited faggotry, stali addresses this problem. It is also funny and ironic how statically linking everything makes a system that is much smaller and faster.

Bentley White
Bentley White

Sorry, I only remember reading on Tannenbaum's blog that that's what he wanted Minix to be, I don't have a link to it. Most people (myself included) didn't know that there was such a conceptual difference between MINIX 2 and MINIX 3

Adam Butler
Adam Butler

Tannenbaum mentioned his concern towards Intel chosing an older teaching version of minix instead of their production ready version.
cs.vu.nl/~ast/intel/
"I certainly hope Intel did thorough security hardening and testing before deploying the chip, since apparently an older version of MINIX was used. Older versions were primarily for education and newer ones were for high availability. Military-grade security was never a goal."

David Anderson
David Anderson

I hope the DRM is strong and the users can not possible take control of their hardware.
What a cunt. Intel fucking up is good for us though.

Jose Walker
Jose Walker

I hope the DRM is strong and the users can not possible take control of their hardware.
wtf are you on about?

Charles Davis
Charles Davis

I'm still trying to understand why the fuck can't I make static binary out of glibc. Why did you freetards have to let this happen?

WHY?

Michael Long
Michael Long

because you obviously never tried having statically linked X, let alone any graphical userspace using gtk/qt

Bentley White
Bentley White

statically linked X
yea that shit needs deleting some junk
blog.plenz.com/2011-08/statically-linking-dwm-against-x11-and-xcb.html

Isaac Garcia
Isaac Garcia

Anta baka? He said that it was wrong for them to do this and doesn't agree with it, but he foolishly thinks that it being one of the most used OS's on the planet is a good thing. Reminder to trust in Stallman. Run Libreboot or TALOS and only GNU/Linux flavors that respect your freedom.

Benjamin Cox
Benjamin Cox

/thread

Nathan Wood
Nathan Wood

qnx
Intel wouldn't. The tech industry is trying as hard as possible to kill Blackberry.

Dylan Gray
Dylan Gray

BSD license basically says : "Please take my code and use it for your proprietary garbage without giving me any compensation or recognition."
But at least, this way Theo the rat can stick it to the (Stall)man

Owen Cruz
Owen Cruz

The tech industry is trying as hard as possible to kill Blackberry.
Why?

Isaac Wilson
Isaac Wilson

They never conformed to normies.

Justin Rogers
Justin Rogers

For a text-centric workflow Plan9 is great, it's also quite good if you're a programmer. Vi and emacs tards hate acme though.

It's worth getting used to just in case, and the whole environment has far fewer lines of code than systemd or the Linux kernel.

Benjamin Perez
Benjamin Perez

Linus raped Andrew so hard

Caleb Morris
Caleb Morris

The BSD license appeals, the way I see it, to "anarchists" who see any kind of rules as constrictive, but aren't quite smart enough to realize that their philosophy, a priori free-er than GPL, in reality turns out to be just another iteration of neo-con/ultra-capitalist ideology.

The license is literal shit, at least Stallman had a vision of software and beyond society that went beyond kindergarten "would like rules or rules? I want no rules! yeah, i'm an anarcho/crypto/poly meme."

Julian Moore
Julian Moore

or recognition.
<Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice,
Recognition is part of the license.
openbsd.org/policy.html

Most GNUfanatics have no problems pirating commercial software,movies,games and music but when it comes to OSes all of a sudden they care about copyright law. smh fam tbh

Jonathan Barnes
Jonathan Barnes

pirating
It's sharing.

Jordan Ramirez
Jordan Ramirez

We're not using MINX today because Tannenbaum spent decades being a retard. The old versions of Minix were all payed proprietary software, and by the time Tannenbaum realized that nobody wants to pay for some hobbyist's kernel, GNU/Linux had already cornered the market in free (both gratis and libre) operating systems. If he'd just made it free from the get-go we'd all be using GNU/Minix right now.

Dylan Ross
Dylan Ross

we'd all be using systemd/Minix right now.
Fixed it for you. Poettering would have crept along anyways, so, in the end, what's the big difference.

Cooper Russell
Cooper Russell

I don't know that a microkernel could possess all those linux-specific functionalities that systemdicks depends on.

Josiah Kelly
Josiah Kelly

Allegedly he wanted to make it free, but it wasn't possible for some stupid bureaucratic reasons. So he just sold it for the minimum.
Too bad he couldn't, because the design was simpler/better than Linux, and ran fine on much older/cheaper 286 computers with less memory. So at least it accomplished its instructional purposes well.

Liam Jenkins
Liam Jenkins

Depends, Muen kernel claims they are safe from it.
Hi,

We thoroughly studied the potential impact of the recent
Spectre/Meltdown speculative execution CPU design issues on the Muen
Separation Kernel. In this mail we would like to share our findings
regarding Meltdown. The analysis of Spectre will follow in a separate
mail.

For the technical details of the Meltdown vulnerability the reader is
directed to the associated papers and blog posts [1][2][3].

= Introduction

Meltdown is part of a new attack class which relies on observing side
effects caused by speculative instruction execution by the processor. It
is also referred to as Rogue Data Cache Load (CVE-2017-5754).

For a successful Meltdown attack, three requirements have to be met:
(1) The memory space of the unprivileged attacker contains privileged
memory mappings to which the attacker has no access (U/S bit not
set)
(2) The mappings contain desired information
(3) The attacker can measure the timing effects introduced by its attack

= Assessment

Muen uses VT-x and not ring-0/ring-3 transitions as isolation mechanism
between subjects and the kernel. As VT-x transitions automatically
switch the memory layout between guests and the host, Muen does not use
the User/Supervisor bit in page tables for the enforcement of access
rights.

Consequently the precondition (1) for the attack is not met and the Muen
kernel is not vulnerable.

Subjects which internally rely on ring-0/ring-3 transition (e.g. Linux,
Windows) are vulnerable from local attacks unless adequate mitigation is
performed at subject level. E.g. for Linux guests, Kernel Page Table
Isolation (KPTI, formerly KAISER) must be enabled.

= Conclusion

Meltdown is defended by our design decision to have a simple
architecture which only utilizes a single isolation mechanism: hardware
virtualization. We prioritized a minimal design over performance
considerations and decided not to use ring-3 in VMX-root mode for native
subjects. Since Meltdown only affects the ring-0/ring-3 isolation
mechanism we were spared from that pit of lava.

Kind regards,
The Muen Team

[1] - meltdownattack.com
[2] -
googleprojectzero.blogspot.ch/2018/01/reading-privileged-memory-
with-side.html
[3] -
newsroom.intel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2018/01/Intel-Ana
lysis-of-Speculative-Execution-Side-Channels.pdf

Nicholas Smith
Nicholas Smith

No, if you go back and read the Torvalds/Tannenbaum debate, you'll see that Andrew actually defended charging for Minix.

Daniel Turner
Daniel Turner

He was bound by a publishing contract.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX#Licensing
At the time of its original development, the license for MINIX was considered to be rather liberal. Its licensing fee was very small ($69) compared to those of other operating systems. Although Tanenbaum wished for MINIX to be as accessible as possible to students, his publisher was not prepared to offer material (such as the source code) that could be copied freely, so a restrictive license requiring a nominal fee (included in the price of Tanenbaum's book) was applied as a compromise. This prevented the use of MINIX as the basis for a freely distributed software system.

webcitation.org/mainframe.php
I set out to write a minimal UNIX clone, MINIX, and did it alone. The code was 100% free of AT&T's intellectual property. The full source code was published in 1987 as the appendix to a book, Operating Systems: Design and Implementation, which later went into a second edition co-authored with Al Woodhull. MINIX 2.0 was even POSIX-conformant. Both editions contained hundreds of pages of text describing the code in great detail. A box of 10 floppy disks containing all the binaries and source code was available separately from Prentice Hall for $69.
While this was not free software in the sense of "free beer" it was free software in the sense of "free speech" since all the source code was available for only slightly more than the manufacturing cost. But even "free speech" is not completely "free"--think about slander, yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, etc. Also Remember (if you are old enough) that by 1987, a university educational license for UNIX cost $300, a commercial license for a university cost $28,000, and a commercial license for a company cost a lot more. For the first time, MINIX brought the cost of "UNIX-like" source code down to something a student could afford. Prentice Hall wasn't really interested in selling software. They were interested in selling books, so there was a fairly liberal policy on copying MINIX, but if a company wanted to sell it to make big bucks, PH wanted a royalty. Hence the PH lawyers equipped MINIX with a lot of boilerplate, but there was never any intention of really enforcing this against universities or students. Using the Internet for distributing that much code was not feasible in 1987, even for people with a high-speed (i.e., 1200 bps) modem. When distribution via the Internet became feasible, I convinced Prentice Hall to drop its (extremely modest) commercial ambitions and they gave me permission to put the source on my website for free downloading, where it still is.

Ironically, the modest $69 fee for floppy disks and shipping would probably have been considered reasonable by RMS. Since all the source code was available and provided thus, he would or should have vetted this OS as libre software, which the user has full access to source codes for the purposes of learning and modifications.

James Evans
James Evans

Muen kernel
Where is the firefox port for it?
Also
SPARK

Asher Perry
Asher Perry

There's no VisiCalc port either.

Gabriel Ortiz
Gabriel Ortiz

bump