Is it wrong to promote open borders & the free market in the hope that it brings the third-world proletariat to a more...

Is it wrong to promote open borders & the free market in the hope that it brings the third-world proletariat to a more class-conscious position?

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Yes.

The third world is the last place that needs more "class conciousness". There is a reason the third world is the place with all the marxist militias and revolutions.

The only thing open borders and free market will achieve is turn the first world into fascists who will then try and kill the invaders.

Wew. I don't know, I personally support the EU for that reason. Being from Europe, you cannot imagine how much it has helped alleviate former nationalisms. Why can't we do that with ever-increasing democratic (capitalist) unions until the global revolution?

no. thats retarded. immigration should be completely banned in the first world, so that the third world has no option but to revolt, since they cannot run away

The EU is not open borders. Open borders would be abolishing all control over migration. EU countries still maintain some control over who gets and doesn't get to be a citizen. The schengen zone is just allowing more freedom of movement, but you cant just change nationality, like with open borders.

Also, open borders between comparable countries is completely different from open borders between countries with vast economic and cultural differences.

By the way, I don't think that the future belongs to proto-marxist armed guerillas in the third-world. And I think that promoting them is only due to first-world nostalgia of our revolutionary past and not actual reasoning. The Kurds do very well to work with the Americans.

Yes, globalism only benefits porky. It fucks one set of workers in exchange for the continued exploitation of another set of workers at a much lower price, killing their native industries and making them dependent on global capital.

This notion that there is a hierarchy of exploitation among the first and third world workers is foolish. It is nothing but nationalism shrouded in the banner of socialism, and it benefits only the capitalists.

What we should promote is technological unemployment, class division, and anger at the problems of the world. This will lead to revolution.

By that logic, we should actively try to make them even poorer, abolish aid and do a monthly revolutionary bombing of their infrastructure.


True, the EU has some way to go. I support Federalism, but it isn't very popular.


It's a gradual process. They'll never grow without free trade and some population movement. Not all of the EU countries stand on the same economic level either, and it's hurt some, but overall it's better.

No need, capital does it for us. Every year they get poorer, and so do you, you just don't notice as much. It's gotten so bad that they've re-defined global poverty standards to pretend this did not happen.

We should do this because aid usually undercuts their native industry and it becomes cheaper to beg than to make your own stuff. It makes them as dependent on global capital as before, if not more.

Heh, with global warming, we'll have a permanent bomb set to go off throughout the decades, and it has the bonus of fucking you over too.

Communism is globalist. We, the workers, want and need globalism. Our globalism can only come after the capitalists globalism.


Sure, that's capitalism. We will overcome it together. Once we're more or less on the same page.


Obviously there is a hierarchy of exploitation.


This will only lead to pointless suffering.

bullshit

Ignore op, he's either an elaborate false flagger or an actual trot

Why do you say that?

Let capitalism prevail. It's very effective at crashing the local nobilities, ethnicities, borders, traditions, everything. It puts everyone in the global productive machine, no questions asked.

Only this way can we truly be a true International Proleteriat.

He supports federalization of the EU, so he's retarded enough to be a trot

The fact that I would be considered a false-flagger tells me everything I need to know about this place. No wonder you're housed under the same roof as the fascists, am I right? Your social-democratic chauvinism leaves me unimpressed.

First of all, that will take many more generations, second of all, the planet will be uninhabitable by then, lastly, capitalism will collapse into barbarism before that happens.

That's why I'm not a simple accelerationist but I propose political action to make sure that the project doesn't devolve, instead of being in an eternal self-pity situation with the random outburst of a local militia somewhere in the world.

No
Yes
if the crushing effects of capitalism which they already experience aren't enough to instill class-consciousness what on fucking earth makes you think that transposing them to another country will

Oh, hey pol

In the long-term it will make world revolution easier. By making first-world more class-conscious (and more third-world).

Other than that? I don't think that's such a great idea. I don't even understand what "free market" should mean in this context. Forced liberalization of third-world markets?

I'm really tempted to search Trotsky's works for appropriate quote, but can't remember where it was exactly.

They are experiencing the effects of much more than capitalism, like warlords, Islam and other pre-modern misfortunes.

Hi, Hitler.

It doesn't mean forced. It means that we (citizens of the first world) should go against this Trumpian non-sense of imposing tarrifs on foreign goods. It will hurt third-world workers the most. It is inherently reactionary and chauvinist.

Ah yes, we need to further aggressively drive down the living standards of the First World working class for a modest bump in living standards for the Third World while allowing the porky class to continue making billions off this equalisation because it will lead to global revolution…possibly.

Very good

Yes the reason the third world is often conflict ridden and shifting between different armed factions is that the first world elite protect their interests by proxy of supporting said factions, much to the detriment of everyone but the top few elites.

Yes, I'm sure it's the communist revolutionary talking in you and not the Trump "fuck the sandniggers" voter.

In case you're not, how on earth do you think your living standards are sustained, if not through the wage-slavery of billions?

wtf? I hate Trump and love the TPP now

But really, how is your globalism-on-steroids really going to help? If the refugee crisis is anything to go by it's just going to encourage fascist/far-Right sentiment.

Or is this all some sort of accelerationist "Well hopefully when the dust settles us communists will stand triumphant on the mounds of corpses!" bullshit?

Well actually the accelerationist option looks the most viable.

Not to be pessimist but the most the left has accomplished so far is reformist/controlled opposition that never fail to reveal their betrayal or flat out inaction

First, I think that the rise in the far-right is an excuse. Our comrades have fought against Hitler and vicious dictators. We can't let our enemies dictate our actions. Secondly, if we win, it's a huge win for us. Imagine the refugees staying and working together with us. That's a first blow to chauvinism.

About globalism, listen, the financial market is global; trade is global; our scope will be global too. There will be no socialist paradise country, ever. No multi-polar world. There will either be a hegemony, or war. We would be correct to choose the side with the most rights, expand it, and work from there. The final goal would be late-stage capitalism that will peacefully transition to socialism, when the ruling class isn't needed anymore. Because now, people are still asking for them. Our work is not done.

The fascist menace is as much of a threat as ISIS is.
The current Elite have a much tighter grip on power an a global scale, fascism can't happen unless it's backed by the Elite, at which point your enemy remains, not the stormfag, but the porky sponsoring him.

How the fuck would open borders bring class-consciousness to the third world?

...

I don't really agree. You put too much emphasis on the elite. Fascism in Europe could pretty much come from the people.

They wouldn't, but if you step into the ancap reality distortion field it might make sense.

That's the exact opposite of what I say. We need to promote an-cap positions, without adopting their ideology. Or we can just larp leftism from the 40's.

Proof that what I say is revolutionary: Molycuck and other crypto-fascists did a 180 and now support Trump.

Fascism would "come from the people" in the same way current democracies "come form the people"

The problem with what an-caps say isn't that it's completely wrong, it's that they're obvious shills who twist economic facts to praise capitalists.

I call them out for what they are.

We need the temporary effects of an-capism, for the long-term goals of socialism/communism.

They key thing is not to lose our minds and say it as it is, unlike an-caps.

Molycuck and the rest are reactionary personality-cult charlatans, they say whatever they think its going to get them the biggest audience/more income.

I know, I've been aware for years, they're a huge problem. They indoctrinate otherwise gifted individuals, especially young students. Their time seems to be up though, they're being absorbed into the GOP. Which is good, because this lessens their ideological effect in the long term, especially after Trump eventually fucks up.

Open borders will just make people resent immigrants for taking their jobs. Have you not been watching the American elections?

Third-Worldism is a fucking joke.

republicans 4 years ago:

the government shouldnt intervene in the free market!!! hehehe libcucks want free stuff!!

republicans now:

the government must stop companies from relying on cheap immigrant labor!!! companies cant outsource jobs to countries without labor laws!!!! free trade is literally cancer!!

But that is a problem with the indoctrination/propaganda/media control from porky and lack of class consciousness isn't it?

Well, it's your job as a political individual to fight this general feeling of xenophobia I guess. I can't tell you what to do, but I just did. You can't do politics without displeasing some people.

That's only Trump, though. Other Republicans hate him and are still pro-immigration and pro-outsourcing. Bush thought Mexicans were natural Republicans and his administration pushed to naturalize them, lel

What will actually happen:

Maybe. It's funny because their taxes will skyrocket anyway because of all the stupid shit Trump plans to do.

trump supporters wanted rand paul as the vp
reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/4spbho/rthe_donald_poll_who_should_be_trumps_vp/

and 'libertarians' like ben garrison and stefan molyneux have been shilling trump endlessly


the big takeaway is that many of the people who voted for ron paul in 2012 are trump supporters now, which is very ironic.

Their wellbeing will surely decrease overall, but I doubt their taxes will increase since Trump wants to tax everyone at 25% or something.


No. What incentive would a worker have to import workers who will undercut him? You're asking them to go against their own economic interests by inviting as many third-worlders as possible to the US in order to import the revolution because of muh solidarity. Considering that revolutions are risky, how is it in the workers' interest to do this? This is pure accelerationism and not even in a good way.


Ok, not all Republicans hate Trump. Most Libertarians are closet fascists if their property rights are threatened anyway.

The irony of course is that Trump is a big benefactor of temporary work visas for low wage jobs in his businesses, claiming he couldn't find the manpower locally (ironic given how high unemployment is in the states), and has probably benefited from illegal workers paid in cash.

It's not in Trump's personal interest to "solve" the immigration problem ie influx of low skilled workers. At best he will merely become more lenient on legal immigration requirements which would make illegal immigration appear to be dropping and it will be the latter line that the media will spout out when it comes to his re-election "say what you like about President Trump but he's the first president to actually reduce illegal immigration" of course they'll omit how legal immigration simultaneously increased.

I can tell that your response was prewritten/baked because it doesnt adress my post at all while being filled with "keywords" as an outsider would sprinkle them at random into their daily grind, depeding on the site they are trolling.

Of course, I don't think he'll do much about immigration. This is actually bad, because the Right will learn that it will need to vote for farther-and-farther right candidates until someone stops third world immigration.


How? I don't think opposition to immigration has anything to do with the lack of class consciousness and porky propaganda.

Open borders means BRING IN THE SCABS

If you support immigration from the third world you should be swinging from a noose, you're an enemy of the western working class.

There is no "western" working class. You are a chauvinist, crypto-fascist.

Yes there is. What the fuck are you saying

Why do you divide the working class between the West and the East? What's your rationale? The working class is the working class. No adjectives needed, unless you have a nationalist angle.

That's retarded. Plebs in the third world are reproducing faster than we can take em in. That is to say the uneducated mass of plebs is growing in the developing world. Bringing them over here just causes brain drain in their homelands and resentment and depressed wages in their new homes.

Daily reminder third-world fetishists are retarded.

Open borders is synonym for stealing all the smart people from poorer countriers