What does leftypol think of holocaust denial, or revisionism?

I'd wager and say most of leftypol sees the holocaust, alongside the mass murder of communists, east europeans, homosexuals, disabled, and others, as an event that did take place.

I personally think the large numbers are exaggerated; not that that changes the crime.

People don't like talking about it because this website is full of nutjobs who would shit up this board if they got a whiff of the word holocaust being mentioned.

This is essentially the position I am leaning toward. Please don't get me wrong; I'm not denying that the holocaust existed or saying that it was not a horrific event. Only that it receives undue emphasis as being THE holocaust and that, being highly politicized, its difficult to find a concrete truth with both Zionists and antisemites twisting the evidence.

If you don't consider training people out of ghettoes into gas chambers to be "industrial" and "systematic" then sure.

It was highly exacerbated by grain confiscations. What the soviets intended by this or what they could have done otherwise I dunno.

This boils down to a question of Stalin's motives.

What specific claims do you contest the truthfulness of?

While I'm not being sure about it being unprecedented in method and scale, I agree with you that Holla Forumss argument about the Jews becomes irrelevant when you look at all the disabled, homosexuals and gypsies that were killed. And unlike many Jews, almost none of them survived.

For many Eastern European countries the Roma and Sinti had been filling the role of the Jew, and when they allied with the Nazis on the premise to take care of the Gipsy question, they were so severely killed that nowadays you only have a couple of thousands gypsies left in the world.

Also the death figures are closer to 11 million.

Look, I feel really uncomfortable to be that guy now, but you must realize that 1) most people were dragged into working camps 2) the numbers that are attributed to the gas chambers are highly exaggerated and 3) gasing people is a really inefficient and dragged-out way to genocide a group - literally the opposite of "industrial" and "german efficency". Killing people with machetes or just dragging them out to the field and shot them in the neck is faster, saves resources, and effective.

I believe mass shootings on the field behind the front committed by SS-death squads was having a higher body count.

Stalin probably wasn't really in charge of what happened down there, to blame are probably the local committees, he might have suspected what was going on but was disconnected from it and - being Stalin - didn't care.

let's say i bomb a building with the intent of killing as many people as possible, and the media initially reports that 200 people were killed. but it's later revealed that only 150 people died. does that fact really make the action any less deplorable?

the numbers arent what matters. we know that germany practiced systematic genocide.

Bullets are pretty wasteful, gas is more resourceful if you have the resources to produce the gas not being otherwise utilised, whereas bullets can be spent on the frontline.

No, of course not. But if it were reported that the vast majority of victims were a certain type of people, and then that figure were used to justify the atrocities carried out by a nation of those people to the extent that it overshadowed the suffering of the others killed in the explosion, then I think it would be worth re-visiting those media reports.

I think I read somewhere most of the deaths were either due to mass starvation, forced marches, death in transit to the camps, disease and mass graves. Not sure why you need to add gassing to turn what the Nazis did into something insidious (as it already was) although I don't doubt some gassing went on

A lot of the labor camps and death camps were the same place. People unfit to work were gassed.
Exaggerated to what?
Zyklon B is a really fucking cheap insecticide. No way you're going to be wasting military ammo for mass extermination, especially with germany's resource constraints. You need that for the Soviets or the jews hiding in the ghettoes. People in a gas chamber don't fight back, unlike machetes. And it kills them all before the next train arrives.

Its completely irreverent whether or not the holocaust happened honestly, the question that matters is whether not or not the targets deserved to be holocausted.
This moral highground bullshit of
is a joke, most if not all instances of mass killing have been enacted by a group or groups that felt they would cease to exist if they did not go these lengths, why are they evil to attempt to survive?

The fact that we are debating if the Holocaust happened shows something is fucked up on this "leftist" board.

...

Add it on the pile of things unrelated to leftism that we talk about anyway.

One person is debating that. Everyone else is saying it did.

Except that labor camps didn't have gas chambers, what are you talking about? People getting deported to Auschwitz or Treblinka? The few labor camps that did have a gas chamber was a tiny room used for executions like in the US today - not for mass killings.

It's impossible to gas and burn so many people within the time given.

Except the Nazis were never short on bullets at any point. They were lacking fossil energy sources, thus the push towards the South East to get control of the oil fields. You also need to take in account that before you can gas the next train, you need to fucking get rid of the bodies.

Khmer Rouge was short on everything, that didn't stop them from having their Killing Fields.

And how are they supposed to fight back exactly? You are aware of Ruanda? If you put people in the Ghetto or a camp, chances to have an uprising are actually higher, and it did happen in Warsaw.

We talk about depression, music and gender here, but debating a historical event is not okay because it was the Nazis? OP asked a question, I don't think it was a bait, and I answered.

You need to get your own debate culture despooked with the taboo topics you have in your brain

yeah okay

The death camps were literally labor camps that had gas chambers added to them.

Oh god you're one of those people. Take my (you).

…and you are trying to say?

This is not how it works m8
If you claim something that at first defies simple logic and math you gotta be the one showing the evidence

the holocaust was largely exaggerated, but still it happened and a lot of juice died.
revisionism is shit but people seriously need to learn the difference between "completely dropping any marxist rhetoric" and "changing to compete with capitalist nations and fight against imperialism"

Hitler always claimed he didn't want war with Britain and France (he didn't) they declared war because of the expansion into Poland despite the fact that they had the largest empires. But he made clear that this war wouldn't happen without Jewish casualties (the holocaust).

"But I left no doubt about the fact that if the peoples of Europe were again only regarded as so many packages of stock shares by these international money and finance conspirators, then that race, too, which is the truly guilty party in this murderous struggle would also have to be held to account: the Jews!" - Hitler's last testament

He probably thought of the holocaust as his greatest accomplishment… So the denial of it by some Neo-Nazis is quite odd

This

People like you give Holla Forums the credibility it doesn't deserve it

If it had happened, it wouldn't be illegal to question it in several European countries.

Nonsense. Just because several European countries are liberal and enforce politically correctness that doesn't mean Hitler dindu nothing. Read his shit. He makes his hatred of Jews clear and he hardly denies causing Jews to die during the second world war.

Probably didn't happen.

I mean, alot of their actions don't make sense or coincide with genocide, and there exists no physical evidence that they ever even attempted such thing. A good example is that there is no mass order to kill jews. There was no systemic "Alright guys, start murdering them" order that was passed out to the camps.

Why else do you think Hitler wrote a book expressing his massive hate for Jews in 1925, deprived them of rights in 1933, put them in ghettos and finally death camps. To tell them it was all a prank?

Not questioning your argument, but you gotta admit, it triggers a lot of people even leftists. Going to actual prison simply because you put a historic event under scrutiny or talk about it on Facebook is so much horseshit, even for liberal standards.

A friend of mine had to leave out stuff in his bachelor thesis to avoid prison. And he's a liberal not a nazi. Meanwhile I can run arround and deny Armenia or Ruanda and they don't do shit

holocaust didnt happen, neither did holodomor

Unfortunately, there are a lot of lies about WW2. The main one though is that it was somehow the Western allies that were primarily responsible for fighting Hitler which was devised to push aside the Russian achievement. Actually, Hitler never wanted war with any of the Western powers like Britain / France / USA actually Britain and France declared war first and the war was declared against the USA only to satisfy the alliance with Japan. The Nazis only ever wanted war with Soviet Union which is why the vast majority of their troops and the battles and deaths happened there. The holocaust is not one of the lies told about it.

Probably because Hitler was shill for the kikes, put in place to make the Nazis look bad. The Holohoax was a false flag the jews invented so if anyone in the future tried to call them out on their kikery, they could point back to WWII and cry racism.

That is laughable. No way they would produce that much anti-semitic material in Germany without them being genuine.

I operate under the belief that the Holocaust happened, but Israel's transgressions and the natural passage of time have rendered it historically nil. That is to say, any argument that uses "the Holocaust" as its justification, is just as valid as one that cites Genghis Kahn.

The Jewish people may have gotten at least a century's worth of mileage out of it if they didn't parade it around in such a crass manner for so long.

The Armenian genocide, in contrast, still has some gas left in it.

Honestly I am not sure anymore. I am willing to buy the number of jews killed is exaggerated but I need good proof from a non biased source to think it never happened.

Literally the only anti-semitic material produced was by Jews and those blue-pilled into shilling for them. Every time you post something bad about the Jews they use it as ammo against the white man: they cry discrimination. You need to wake up take the red pill user, there is no one more anti jewish than the Jews as that's how they make their living. It actually makes my Aryan heart cry when I see so much kike bashing on Holla Forums, knowing those poor saps fell for the biggest scheme of them all. This is why off anonymous image boards I do my best to spread a positive jewish message of tolerance and diversity; so that they can't complain they're discriminated against when they're called out on their kikeness.

Israel's exploitation of the holocaust is pure opportunism. Israel was established by the British starting with the Balfour declaration in 1917 long before WW2. The regime in the country has always worked for British and Western interests. If it had something to with the holocaust then perhaps Israel would have allied with the Soviet Union which liberated most concentration camps and fought the most battles against the Nazis but nope it was always about being a Western puppet.

Do the math for me. I'm not really sure what the average amount of time it takes to gas and cremate someone.

{{citation needed}}

The gasing probably only takes 30 min.

However, it takes 1 to 3 hours to cremate a human body. Now even if the Nazis stuffed more then 5 people into a single oven (which would prolong the cremation, but let's assume it doesn't), had them run 24/7 till the end and didn't burn them all the way through there is now way the amount of cremated bodies would be so ridiculously high as it is claimed. It's really just a guessing game at this point how many people were actually killed in this industrialized way.

I think after the war they just needed an official number of victims, and since they were all cremated with no physical evidence left, they could just make a it up. The thing that bothers me is that in 2016 we still send people to prison because of that shit some allied military gouverneurs made up

Same thing with the Holodomor. I mean, what's the official narrative there? 20 million? Like holy fucking shit.

Ovens weren't the only method of cremation. They cremated corpses en masse in large pits.

And of the homosexual survivors, many were re-arrested upon returning home.

The UK were still castrating gays into the 50s. The reason for not mentioning other groups affected by the holocaust is it starts to taint the "we're the goodies" narrative…

In Germany, they used to euthanize disabled kids up to the 60s.

Hitler was purely a puppet of US and UK capitalist and industrialists.

That is why his state is basically a carbon copy of the US and UK colonial system (With some lefty rhetoric added in because Germany was majority socialist)

Just like in all US/UK systems, the untermenchen were used as slave labor until they died. Also the communists were all killed instead of letting them be in the slave labor camps.

That one of the "races" included was jews was incidental. Fascists need scapegoats to redirect class consciousness to racism.

And no, Jews were obviously not even close to the majority of the dead. It's asinine to claim so, as Jews weren't that much of the population.

Plenty of untermenchen to go around.

/brit/ here, a few years ago we had an outbreak of foot and mouth disease, the government would order farms to destroy all their animals…

Those pyres burn for days and days… It's not quick at all

again

clarifying, if they used pyres, there is no way the local population wouldn't have twigged what was going on, and chances are pilots would have noticed…

Isnt that picture from the ukraine?

ukrainians were really fucking murderous, almost outdid the krauts, prominent nazis were actually wee bit afraid of them. the german nazis kind of danced around actually saying "remove all the jews" in their scribblings, but the banderistas sure didnt, they casually mention how you have to remove every man pregnant woman and child, and how any kind of morality is detrimental

yep the pictures from ukraine, "the last jew in vinnitsa" of course there are members of einstazgruppe D and even hitler youth, genocide apprenticeship lul

If I'm remembering correctly the death camps were mostly located far away from civilian populations. The exception being Auschwitz which was a hybrid work-death camp. I've never read any accounts from Germans living around Auschwitz to know if they could smell or see the pyres. That would be interesting to read though.

When I've read about this before, they say "the locals often didn't know". Those things fucking reek. Like, of death. If you were on a train and ordered off in the middle of nowhere and smelt that, you'd go into survival mode.

They can't have used them regularly… Ovens maybe. At least with an oven you get a good clean burn, with a pyre, it just slowly works through.

That was the only thing I saw which made me think "errrr" some holocaust museum alleging there were nowhere near enough mass graves because "the nazis opened up mass graves and torched them when the russians were coming"…

As has been said before, the holocaust was evil, and happened, but to my mind the actual number doesn't matter. If an individual camp says "oh turns out only 50k people died here, not the 400k we thought" I dont go…. "ah well thats less than Sarajevo"… anyone who cares about the number is a moron. but anyone who lies about the number is using a crime against humanity for an agenda…. and that makes you an arse.

I've never read any accounts from Germans living around Auschwitz to know if they could smell or see the pyres.

All of the major death camps were set up in relatively remote areas of occupied Poland. Secrecy was a very important aspect of Nazi extermination policies.

Oops, meant to quote that firs sentence.

To which I respond :

All of the major death camps were set up in relatively remote areas of occupied Poland. Secrecy was a very important aspect of Nazi extermination policies.

Wasn't Auschwitz relatively close to some population centers due to it's proximity to rail lines?

Your picture is indeed one of the few authentic pictures of Nazi killings, but please be aware that burning bodies open air takes DAY as the British user already pointed out.

Pretty much this. As somebody who majored in history I feel the need to expose the truth, I have absolutely no intent to justify any of the atrocities that were committed.

It is also interesting how it was almost entirely the US/UK that was pushing the "Tätervolk" thing in Germany in order to render the population apolitical, then fuel up consumerism with the Marshal plan money - they just wanted to turn Germany into the abulic NATO-slave which it still is today.

Yet the soviets - who liberated all the death camps, have all the source information - didn't make any efforts to include the Holocaust into their propaganda.

oops forgot to take off my shitposting flag

oops forgot to take off my shitposting flag

I have read Mein Kampf though. I didn't find much hateful things said towards Jews. It's illegal to question the Holocaust because there's not much evidence to support it other than eye witness statements which do not hold in court.

I could deny 9/11 happened in any European country and face no prison sentence. Why? Because there exist evidence that 9/11 happened, whereas there exist no evidence for gas chambers, and there exist no document from Hitler talking about any genocide, nor is there any recording from any of the camps discussing any genocide, and during the war the Red Cross said that there was no genocide happening.

Pure speculation.

I see what you're saying but I'm not sure it rules out the method. They had the time, the labor, and I don't see a temporary inconvenience like smell deterring a genocide.

That's completely false. They are numerous documents detailing the process, though often written in euphemised terms.

I don't think that's true. For example, Majdanek is right across the street from the rest of the city of Lublin and is only separated by a wood/barbed wire fence that looks 5 feet tall.

Open air incinerations don't work. Brazilian army tried doing this once during the Paraguayan war only to find out that the bodies won't burn.

Sounds like people pushing for it don't have any evidence, and use that lack of evidence of proof of secrecy.

Talking of the UK, some estimates say our little camping holiday to India was responsible for multiple holocausts worth of deaths. See:Amritsar etc.
There isn't an official number on the number of deaths of civilians caused by British troops in the open, legally (under UK law), but there is an official number on the Holocaust which it's illegal to question? mkay.

same brit here…. we had an outbreak of myxomatosis in rabbits a few years ago too, we used to burn the bodies after killing them…. Those things take fucking forever….

yeah fair point. at least with ovens they could turn them off for a couple of hours, you dont know what they were used to too, we dont know how horrendous smelling their lives were, fair point.

Like I said, the main thing that made me question was when they talked about opening mass graves and burning them before re-hiding before the soviets came… I don't doubt you could do it in peace time, but "shit! the russians are coming! send 30 train loads of oil, gas and men to the camp, along with train tracks to build a pyre and lets dispose of this all in under two weeks, before laying new turf over the top!" seems unrealistic. Remember this is a country who were sending 12 year olds into the fields toward the end…

How are documents describing the event any different than an eye witness statement describing it? Documents aren't any better than eye witness statements, especially when their typewriters were seized.

It happened though didnt it… don't be that guy…
come on…. 1940s "secret recordings"

"Shall I start at Aardvark and work through? Or start at the bit where we systematically killed a race!"
"Yeah…"

That war man. It's pretty shameful being a Brazilian already but what we did in that war - to Paraguay's population and our own slave population is so fucking sad.

And then people suck Pedro II as the "greatest leader" of this country. Jesus christ.

sage for offtopic

Going by Hilberg's estimate, the Holocaust ranges from 4.9 to 5.5 million. He points out this is a rough estimate, and it is all rounded.

People also need to understand that cremation was never done in a clean or orderly fashion, and in many cases remains were left in a terrible state but could be identified. Furthermore, a large number of victims were not cremated and simply buried in mass graves - which the Nazis later tried to dig up and cremate using large 'grill' styled pyres. These often burned for days and were never exceptionally efficient.

youtube.com/watch?v=gVfFHJE0e1g