Automation and basic income

I'm sure most people here are familiar with the concept of basic guaranteed income.

It doesn't have much support right now but that's largely because at the moment it isn't viable, at least not the ability to give every adult an income that they can live off of without working.

The best way to get there is by making huge investments, particularly in fields like robotics and artificial intelligence. Dramatically increase government funded research in these fields, make all findings of said research public and give tax incentives to companies to invest in R&D.

I really think, considering the current state of AI/machine and it's rate of growth that we can reach a point where AI and robotics can do all of the agricultural work, most of the blue collar work, and a lot of the white collar work.

At that point people will be demanding basic income and many politicians will support it (yes, only to get elected and reelected but as long as they vote for it their motives don't matter).

Basic income will solve most of the economic problems we have today but to get there, we need the technology.

Unfortunately research and development funding isn't a "sexy" topic so it doesn't get discussed much anywhere. Easily the most underrated issue ever.

There's some experiments over in Finland about it right now right? Does anyone know anything about it?

Basic income is certainly important.

Universal Basic Income is possible today. The reserve army of labour is fucking huge. We don't have a labour supply problem. We have a job supply problem. The first-world is resource rich. There's no reason why it can't be accomplished. National debts are a spook. We have enough labour as is that we can have balanced international trade. And there are plenty of people without jobs we could have making shit again.

I'd prefer that we have a $15US/hr minimum wage, 30 hour work week. People on disability, welfare and retired should be getting a livable weekly or monthly stipend ($300/week or $1250/month). Where I live we have something called "workfare" for welfare recipients. You have to actively look for work in order to receive welfare ($305CAD/month for basic needs, $376/month for shelter allowance). If you reject a job offer, even if it's only $11.25CAD/hr minimum wage ($8.50USD)
and no guarantee of hours, your welfare will be cut-off. This is very much inhumane. But if the minimum wage was $20CAD/hr and welfare benefits were actually decent, workfare makes sense. The true reason why we have workfare is because porky wants you to fight for scraps (or starve).

falc ftw

Are u that canadian running for office?

No, it's not.

It's a distraction for the masses. Instead of actually getting organized and taking the power for real, the people are told that simply waiting is enough for luxury communism (hint: this luxury communism has as much to do with communism, as cultural marxism has to do with marxism).

It's as if being weak and powerless grants a better chance of having things go your way.

It's as if rich and wealthy became rich and wealthy by spending most of their money to make poor people happy.

That's right, worker! Don't try to change the system! Just try to get more money!

That's right. Work is stupid. We need to get rid of it. Socialism is retarded, because it wants everyone to work, instead of everyone being happy.

Just keep the idea of basic guaranteed income alive. Capitalism will do the rest with the innovation and automatisation stuff, because socialists are retarded and will never change anything. So our only job is to keep the idea alive and to remind people of the fact that work is stupid and undesirable.

inb4 the capitalists kill all the excess workers when they are no longer necessary.

Oh wait it's already happening, lmfao.

if everyone does no work and just reaps the benefits of robot workers, isnt everyone basically a capitalist

touché, good sir

Basically, yeah. Shit'll be great.

You won't be so happy about the government-approved tablescraps you get from the technofuturistic megabourgeoisie.

don't try to lump yourself in with actual leftists, bootlicker.

AKA communism

I don't identify as a socialist fucktard.
You keep working for the ultimate enslavement of humanity. I'll be having fun, because life isn't about work, it's a game. So fuck you.

i think what you guys are telling me is that communism and capitalism are compatible

If we define capitalism more broadly as the exploitation of energy, instead of workers, then yes.

SOLAR PANELS ARE BOURGEOIS

Yes, they are. Socialists would demand that you work for the energy yourself, not simply exploit the sun's work.

i cant tell if your trolling or legit dont understand thermodynamics

can't tell who's serious and who's trolling now

A solar panel is a device that transforms one form of energy into another.
A factory is also a device that transforms one form of energy into another.
The only difference is that humans are sentient beings and that working causes them suffering.
But on a systemic level there is no difference.

Eventually everyone will become part of the technofuturistic megabourgeoisie, because there won't be need for human labour anymore. Thus the labour class will go extinct.

Humanity is already enslaved by private property, which you want to keep, while giving ultimate power to the elites who own the property.
Communism is about giving the people democratic control over the means of production and property. And in your fully-automated fantasy world, that includes the robots and AI's.
Please read a book. It's painfully clear your understanding of everything you're trying to talk about is based on memes.

you realize that almost all energy on earth comes from the sun

autotrophs convert solar energy into chemical energy

heterotrophs eat autotrophs and take their energy

you cannot live without 'exploiting' the sun

Marx had no clue of technology. Thus you can take your outdated, ignorant marxist theories and stick them in your ass.

Yes, i know. Didn't claim exploiting the sun would be a bad thing. The word "exploitation" is value neutral.

weak bait tbh

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How isn't implementing basic guaranteed income changing the system? It would eliminate poverty and make it so workers are generally not exploited.

The main reason why workers are exploited now is that right now most people have to work to survive. Workers are vulnerable to exploitation if their job is making the difference between having a roof over their heads and living on the street. Basic income would make it so that their survival would never be on the line for a job.

Obviously there would have to be some other reforms done to ensure that the payment is enough to survive on and that people don't take advantage of it by raising the prices of necessities. I'm not sure how this would be done exactly because I'm not an expert on economics, and I'm pretty confident you aren't either.

Bump

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Silly rabbit, that's what Fascism is for.

You pay Fascists to spend the overcapacity and destroy it with war.

War is the ultimate consumption/depreciation of assets.

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If you try to get universal welfare through the current government then you are a reformist.

Reformists weaken the revolution. They are traitors that will sell out all their ideals and even side against revolution because they think their small goals are success.
Imagine you got universal welfare installed but porky pig continued owning the factories ; the means of production would be used as a tool to control. Turn off the universal welfare in a region for disobedience and riots break out, until the region obeys.

So in other words, allowing the bourgeoisie to remain you have failed at classless post capitalism. You have actually ensured they continue ruling.

Through the current governments, Universal welfare would be reformism and a failure.

If i understand your reasoning here then it's that the basic income will be provided by the state to the people and the state gets the money from (Highly) increased taxes from the now next to fully automated industries?

Wouldn't the companies just set up a factory in another country then?

The thing is that there would be more work avaliable in maintainance and such for these different automations. BUT not as many as the automations would remove if fully implemented.

I'd say that the way to have such a system that you propose requires a lower population.

//A robot programmer.

The automation of labour ultimately includes robots repairing and building robots, removing 99% of human work.

Fully
Automated
Luxury
Capitalism/Fascism

(Now with 99% less workers)

Probably will be fully implemented within 100 years and only 100 million humans will be left on earth with 1 million of them being capitalists.

All the rest of the humans will be culled one way or another for being worthless to the capitalist.

I think it would go more along the way of hoe the chinese implimented a limit on the number of children allowed.

You are clearly forgetting Capitalism's solution for the rampant excess capacity of the industrial revolution.

aka, world wars and fascism.

Only this time, they won't need workers for basically anything anymore, so they will just cull them all one way or another.

Probably both. They're already putting people in prison in record numbers and getting people really scared of "home-grown" terrorism so people will be more at ease about the government killing their neighbors.

capitalism will most likely replace all workers with automated labor in 4 decades anyways, after that the proletariat will be completely unnecessary. unless we revolt right now and develop technology collectively, we will probably all die out
that is if environmental destruction or posadism doesnt kill us first

Why does there have to be a massive conspiracy behind this?

Pepole are replaced because robots are faster when doing the same one thing many times.

How is basic capitalistic behavior a "massive conspiracy"?

This shit is blatantly obvious.

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Forgive me for being unclear. The whole thing about how the 1% wants to purge the lower class is what's bothering me.

I see wanting to eliminate needless work as a means to gain efficiency. But I alos see that many people realy enjoy working.

Stop hiring workers in a capitalist society as the worker is inferior in profit margin to simply using automation.

How do you suppose said people who aren't in control of the means of production get any way to acquire the output of the means of production?

Forums like these need to have basic economic knowledge requirements…….

The workers will all die out and the next generation will then be a classless society.

Just put your ayncrap flag on so I don't have to waste my time on you next time.

The goal of communism is a classless society, not to preserve the worker class, you moron.

There will be fewer jobs where a robot can be used but there are many cases where it's a better (cheaper) choice for the capitalist to use workers (with a decent payment mind you) than to install a new robot in the factory.

I understand the concept of supply and demand and I'm proposing that the population be reduced by means other than a great purge in any form, castration or other fucked up ways. Just simple regulation.

Observe how ultra capitalists like Milton Friedman (and three days ago one major back) advocate basic income and asks yourself why. Basic income will happen and capitalists will do everything possible to ensure that. They are not movie villains. They care only about their self interest. Basic income happens to match their interest.

There's no need to cull anybody. They just need to recreate the social conditions and cultural mores that have led to ultra low birth rates in Europe and Japan.

Finally someone who at first glance isn't a paranoid conspiracy theorist

If the proles die out, then the remaining people are those who are in control of the means of production. Communism achieved!

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robot revolt

More likely than a culling of the lower class tbh.

this won't be a problem tbh.
For industry purposes, nonsentient ai will be used.

Non centient AI also can't preform complex tasks.

Complex task such as?

smh

But that's completely wrong.
Nueralnetworks are used to teach machines complex tasks all the time. The difference between one of these and a sentient one though is that it can only do one category of tasks.

I can't stop it

Panpsychism. Leftists are going to claim that robots are sentient.

Nigga, it'll be pretty easy to differentiate sentience from non-sentience.

After all there is no test for sentience. They way we decide whether something is sentient or not is by observing how similar its behaviour is to human beings. If it has a face that simulates human emotional expressions for example. The more similar robots become to humans, the more will raise the suspicion of whether they are sentient or not. But do not worry, because porky will only construct robots that bear no semblance to humans, except for the sex slave robots.

I'll use the industy as an example maintainance or repairs due to prolonged wear.

It's not cost effective to have such an advanced automation that it can execute a replacement of a broken standard pneumatics unit and account for variables in where it's located and how to acces it safeley witout it taking too much time to do so.

Basic income doesn't counteract the falling rate of profit(the main driver of crises in capitalism), if you belive this then you're a reformist(belive that the cause is underconsuption).
The same falling rate of profits that ended the wellfare state in the US after the 70.

Woops, forgot to remove my shitposting flag

?

Ah. My misstake in choice of words.

this
unless you have a huge trade deficit (not possible globally)

Socialized capital is a more viable political goal and one that will create a universal basic income should automation take over

ubi within capitalism is shit, it is neccecary to transition from socialism to communism though.


We want to abolish classes, my good friend. It doesnt matter if we all become porkies or all become proletarians, because if there is only one class, there is no difference between them.

Also horsecock. A sentient being can also only do the tasks its trained to do. And being self-training does not require sentience.

Ops

Basic income is impossible anyway, the porkies would never accept such an ideological and financial defeat on the hands of the proles. See how they even cheated the 8 hour work day with "overtime".

It wouldn't be a defeat at all, it'd be a way to pacify the masses on a basic existence (which they already enjoy even at the poorest levels,) weakening them and instilling lethargy in the populace, while they maintain their unchallenged iron grip on the means of production and all the power that comes with it.