marxism general thread.
for all MLs, MLMs, MTWs, trots, classmarxs, libmarxs, leftcoms, etc basically any faggots who refer to themselves as a marxist.
ANARKIDDIES NEED NOT APPLY
marxism for newfags: media.8ch.net
basic 'conomicz: media.8ch.net
orthodox marxism reading: >>>/freedu/1299
/marx/ism-leninism reading: >>>freedu/1390
any libmarxs here willing to make a thread on /freedu/ sharing some of your materials?
Other urls found in this thread:
what about anarcho-marxists?
Yeah and what about the anarcho-statists too! :^)
only if they look like pic related
you mean ancaps?
I was originally going to shitpost because you said MLs and MLMs are marxists- but then you started posting freedu posts and that's good so I'll not get triggered and I'll even bump your thread. :^)
Reminder that everyone should read Luxemburg's essays "the mass strike" and "reform or revolution" at least once, even tankies especially tankies.
Can anarkiddies ask questions?
But you're not an anarkiddy :^)
yes
i meant this place to be where classmarxs can deb8 with MLs and see how it goes, otherwise this thread would just be another OP answering basic questions thread
also heres the ML reading thread >>>/freedu/1390
How do Marxist plan to reward the "boss" accordingly, since he is doing more skilled labour than the workers and has more to loose?
Bumping cuz of resources
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When is Holla Forums going to just have a splitting of the International between /marx/ and /anarcho/ tbh
are we talking about the boss who owns the means of production and hire others to work on it, or the boss who manage things?
that would be quite nice ngl
Boss who manages things
boss who manage things are obviously necessary even under communism, and there are different ways different marxists would treat him.
we can have a democratic workplace where everyone vote to decide the wages of everyone (up to a limit of course), or pay everyone the same, or use labor vouchers
i cant answer for all marxists, but those are some ways that have been proposed
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
He's a fucking liberal.
He's okay but his stance on killing newborn infants is eugenics-tier
Wouldn't if were using the LTV, if the boss has special skills that he would've picked up in business school, couldn't we average that time in school into the labour hours of each day. Since it is directly related to the labour?
I thought that was the only thing good about him
:^)
Nah, I read him in a class and that's the only thing that the other students could talk about. He should have been sneakier tbh
As to be expected of those with irrelevant political theory. Don't get me wrong, Marx as a philosopher and economist is not irrelevant. But "marxism" as a movement is useless today.
But keep larping, one day you'll make a chance really
Democratic vote of the collective. If the collective is not willing to cough up requested share, then the manager can go find someone else or lower his demands.
That said, USSR had standardized wages (not a hard law, but more of a guidelines) according to competence/necessity for economy/time it takes to acquire skills and so on. Simplifying things: if you wanted to go from Level 2 Manager to Level 3 Manager (+15% pay increase), there were courses you needed to take, minimum experience working as Manager and recognition of collective that you are actually effective.
Also, you very wrong thinking that manager is automatically the most competent.
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If the manager performs "skilled labour" wouldn't we just use the LTV.
woah you really showed him just how superior you are
I bet he's really salty over that ad hom
...
Any creditable graphs for the tendency of the rate of profit to fall lads?
Since this thread actually has a point, wouldn't it benefit you more to just ignore shitposting rather than engaging in this useless dick-measuring and cluttering up the thread? Like, we get it. You're self-satisfied.
Relying on LTV alone is Idealism, no?
Quality of labor performed needs to be accounted for as well. At this point, the only semi-reliable measure of it (unless we are talking very specific cases with measurable output) is the popular opinion.
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with its core the concept of Internal Contradictions, in turn based on the Hegelian
concept that historical progress is achieved through the clash of opposites and their
ultimate resolution in the form: THESIS + (vs.) ANTITHESIS -> SYNTHESIS.
Garbage
youtube.com
Here's a vid for anyone interesting in debunking the "Hegelian dialectics" misunderstanding.
Well whats sad is that a Marxist "professor" with a PhD is teaching this crap to students. It's one thing for reactionaries to hammer about thesis-antithesis-synthesis (www.infowars.com/the-hegelian-dialectic-and-its-use-in-controlling-modern-society/
) and it's another for a "Marxist" to do so.
he never actually says what Hegel says there, just over-zealously attacks misconceptions.
LTV should have a general value that it is then compared to.
no he meant that that's not dialectical materialism. :^) triad is a meme.
Well, you said "just use the LTV". I've assumed that implied discarding evaluation of the quality by the collective.
Okay sorry I should be more clear. LTV to determine value, combined with some sort of group evaluation.
can someone explain to me how Stalin's take on compound labor wasn't capitalist backslide and revision?
And what was "Stalin's take on compound labor"? Because I'd like to be certain that we are talking about the same things.
Be an anarkidddie first, then ask questions.
Can we stop infighting like this? It's getting annoying. Stop masturbating. We should read each others shit and discuss.
This sounds interesting. On what grounds do classical Marxists attack ML's and vice-versa? Where is the point of conflict?
As to be expected from Marxsts
Fuck Holla Forums
Compound Labor being the idea that a skilled worker's labor value must consider the training/schooling requires in producing a laborer's skill.
"An hour of labour by a skilled worker must be considered as complex labour, as compound labour, as a multiple of an hour of unskilled labour; the coef cient of multiplication obviously cannot be an arbitrary one but must be based on the cost of acquiring a given skill.”
Stalin's contribution being that 'quality' of the work should be viewed alongside quanity.
Can you further explain what 'quality' is in this sense?
Wouldn't it be subjective?
Why did OP post a economics course from a professor who isn't even a marxist and disagrees with the LTV?
That's my point, it's no logger quality in a Marxist sense and now quality in the bourgeois ideological sense where its 'quality' is determined by its social usefulness and relations to the market.
What's with the doctor doom posts? Are you expressostalinist?
I wonder how does this tie into the garbage policies of the USSR such as stakhanovism and piece work?
Nah, I just like Dr. Doom. Pictures are just there to make my posts more fun to look at.
I don't see how this means "backslide to capitalism" or revisionism.
Do we have Marx's or Lenin's statement that no reward for education or effort should be given? It would help immensely, if there was such a thing.
Not really. I can only make a conjecture. And I don't like making conjectures.
As far as I managed to determine, you aren't quoting Stalin (despite making it look like it was Stalin). Source of the quote appears to be Ernest Mandel, who was a Trotskyist and was talking about Trotskyist things (worker aristocracy meme, if I got the context right). It would make sense to ask someone of the 4th International about the meaning.
Much more importantly, Ernest Mandel did not explain what he actually meant by this. He makes no references to any specifics. It's just blanket statements about "Soviet apologetics", with unknown persons making unknown statements about unknown things. It's impossible to give any explanation when faced with such vague things.
you faggots are literally less relevant than anarcho capitalists
your only recognition is literally a few shitty memes that can be used in place of the "not an argument" meme.
kek talk about lack of self-awareness
also ive seen a rise rather than decline of marxism recently on Holla Forums
Bamboozled by the Trotskyists again, curses.
kek
kikkety kek
Can anyone expand on this? Something to read? I always believed in the triad, I guess it was a meme.
Should anarchists be sent to the gulag or just killed on the spot?
funny how the most radical and aggressive anti-MLs ive met all became MLs after theyve realized the misrepresentation of MLism after actually reading about it.
ancoms can be tolerated.
ancaps need to be reeducated. with bullets. through their brains.
You aren't even trying.
Both. They will be processed into edible goo for the Trotskyist traitors working in uranium mines.
They need to be either re-educated or treated like anarchists.
Thoughts on tito and market socialists?
Revisionist and extra-revisionist.
No shit. This board strawmans Marxism-Leninism like Holla Forums does with communism in general. I can only listen to left-coms whine about how we're anti-democracy and our only goal is nationalization so many times before I start feeling queasy.
I know your goals go beyond nationalization. They also include killing people.
Do not fight the Dark Side. Embrace it!
So do yours, and everyone else's really. Welcome to planet earth champ.
In fact, the realm of freedom actually begins only where labour which is determined by necessity and mundane considerations ceases; thus in the very nature of things it lies beyond the sphere of actual material production. Just as the savage must wrestle with Nature to satisfy his wants, to maintain and reproduce life, so must civilized man, and he must do so in all social formations and under all possible modes of production. With his development this realm of physical necessity expands as a result of his wants; but, at the same time, the forces of production which satisfy these wants also increase. Freedom in this field can only consist in socialized man, the associated producers, rationally regulating their interchange with Nature, bringing it under their common control, instead of being ruled by it as by the blind forces of Nature; and achieving this with the least expenditure of energy and under conditions most favourable to, and worthy of, their human nature.
But it nonetheless still remains a realm of necessity. Beyond it begins that development of human energy which is an end in itself, the true realm of freedom, which, however, can blossom forth only with this realm of necessity as its basis. The shortening of the working-day is its basic prerequisite.
In a capitalist society, this surplus-value, or this surplus-product (leaving aside chance fluctuations in its distribution and considering only its regulating law, its standardizing limits), is divided among capitalists as dividends proportionate to the share of the social capital each holds. In this form surplus-value appears as average profit which falls to the share of capital, an average profit which in turn divides into profit of enterprise and interest, and which under these two categories may fall into the laps of different kinds of capitalists. This appropriation and distribution of surplus-value, or surplus-product, on the part of capital, however, has its barrier in landed property. Just as the operating capitalist pumps surplus-labour, and thereby surplus value and surplus-product in the form of profit, out of the labourer, so the landlord in turn pumps a portion of this surplus-value, or surplus-product, out of the capitalist in the form of rent in accordance with the laws already elaborated.
wut?
I wasn't baiting stalin tash, I'm just an uninformed idiot.
Anyhow what do you guys think of Tony Cliff?
You can think of triad as a tool of understanding abstract concepts through differentiating them from something that they aren't. For example, defining "Democracy" by drawing a line between Democarcy and not-Democracy.
Or you can think of a triad as a tool of understanding real things, by simultaneously using two different abstract points of view (i.e. projecting something real on two abstract models) to get perspective on things.
You can muck it up in any way, but how can you believe in a philosophical concept? Do you believe that 2+2=4 ?
There is a special hell. Just for you. It's called Solipsism.
Nothing. Perfidious Albion is not my home.
Did he have some original ideas?
A question about Brazil: can anyone point me to some general and unbiased Marxist non-revisionist ML resource that describes situation there?
Ayyyy Hammer and Sickle Traitor of the Revolution being this Salty.
not really. We don't think you're authoritarian, we just outright think you're no communists and that you're larping a period of modernization which has no function today.
So how many million proletarians are we going to exterminate next time?
kek
All of them. Can't have capitalism without workers after all.
Reminder that dialectical materialism is made up and that there is only historical materialism.
reminder that historical materialism is made up and there is only dialectical idealism
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What exactly is the problem with that? Can`t you understand that left existed long before your prophet Marx (PUBH) was even born?
The 20th century struggles are as relevant today as ever. Because of your unwillingness to support previous communist revolutions we also know your type will be equally unreliable in the future. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to stoop to your level and claim you're not a communist at all. It's just that you mostly restrict your radical thought to theory and can't be relied on most of the time in practice.
Human laborers are not a condition of production under capitalism. It's existence is possible without a proletariat. Some of the more extensive reformist schemes have set out to achieve just that.
Buddy, you and I both know you haven't read a single page of Marx. So it's probably for the best if you stop posting. The only thing you've provided to this board is youtube comments-tier shitposts about the wonders of plutocracy, states, and wage-labor, deriding anyone who dares to question you as "utopian" or whatever without providing any extensive arguments at all.
It was a joke fam. A really obvious one too.
Maybe you should take a few days off from the internet, it appears to be giving you autism.
great thread guys
Thats Marxism for you.