So how many people really died under the Stalin era USSR? A google search would always give me pages of "muh 60 million is too low" and I feel like this is pretty obviously exaggerated for propaganda reasons, so could someone give some numbers and context? It will be pretty useful in arguing against the usual "communism killed 100 million" arguement.
So how many people really died under the Stalin era USSR...
Isaac Ward
Cameron Ramirez
Probably around 20 million
Jason Harris
A lot. These things are hard to calculate probably, especially if we have to include famines intentional or otherwise. But I don't think this type of conversion is really productive. It's about as useful as /pol "arguing" whether or not 6 million Jews were actually killed by Nazis. It's seems innocent and then you realized it's just Holocaust denialism and it would be a shame if leftists did the same with Stalin.
Jose Gutierrez
Obviously the proper response would be that even if those numbers are correct, "communism" in the abstract, a form of economic arrangement that has never existed can not and has not killed anyone.
Jaxon Williams
sure, but the pursuit of communism has. I'd say this is where the appeal of reformism comes in. Radical change requires volatility and volatile situations can easily go bad. That's not to say that revolutionary radical politics is necessarily wrong, but most people are conservative out of caution. They want to keep society the way it is because that's generally safer in the short-term.
In order to bring the cautious masses to your side, you need to be able to explain how you envision a revolution taking place and what precautions you will take in order to make the revolutionary process as painless as possible, and ensure that the revolution won't end in a totalitarian dictatorship.
Anthony Scott
The last most reputable figure I heard was 11 million.
Honestly this whole thing has turned into some kind of stupid game for "historians" and statisticians. Because of the nature of the deaths and the circumstances involved, any number could easily be off by millions: that's way, way too many. These numbers mean virtually nothing in terms of debate.
Pic related. You can flip this "argument" on fucking anything. Abstract ideas and ideology can't have death counts, it just doesn't make sense.
John Ross
Gabriel Gutierrez
Much of those events listed are wars or colonialism-related events, the majority of people will not see a clear connection between that and capitalism (ancaps for example would probably make some argument about how capitalism ebin meme nuffin and it's the fault of the state/crony capitalism/ mercantilism/ etc).
While it may seem like a strong argument to leftists, the people you are trying to convince do not necessarily see a link between capitalism and imperialism.
Perhaps it would be more useful to look for figures on death by starvation/ bad working conditions/ human trafficking in capitalist countries.
Chase Adams
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Levi Long
I have more of an issue with people making excuses for the massive deaths under these regimes regardless if the actual number of deaths is less than propaganda or not. It's not much different for me than when a Nazi argues that the death toll of Nazi Germany is exaggerated. Its a lost cause. Just let them have this one and be assured that what you're advocating is not Stalin – especially in your case since your an anarchist to begin with and should have no interest in Stalin apologia.
Leo Fisher
You're going to have to put constraints on what responsibilities lie with the USSR government and what doesn't.
This is what gets exploited to make numbers as low as "negligible" to "100 million and that's just the ones we know about"
Do you consider conscripts who died in WWII the "fault" of gommunizm? Some do and use that to get ridiculous results. Others discount villages being intentionally denied food.
Caleb Smith
FTFY
Adam Allen
I really posed the question just to be able to get a "verdict", if you will, on Marxism- Leninism. If the Soviet Union, the most noteworthy manifestation of Leninist thought, was really capable of death on this scale (I know capitalism has been responsible for more, but I think we should question systemic violence regardless), then I don't see how one can continue to advocate for that strain of leftist thought. I came on to this board as an anarchist originally, but now I'm just trying to see whether or not Leninism is capable of reedeming. I need context for these deaths because I consider mass executions, famines, and war as needing to be examined based on different criteria.
Joshua Hall
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Jacob Cruz
I skimmed over a bit, and while it seems pretty reasonable, it kind of just feels like the leftist version of Holocaust denial, but whatever. I'll look over it fully when I get the chance
Leo Roberts
Was meant for you
Xavier Clark
Trying to find any death toll for capitalism, communism, or anything else is a lost cause. The only way you could've possibly even begun with looking is by asking how many died unnecessarily from the mistakes of the Stalin government. But that's an impossible question to answer, history is far too complicated for such nonsense. Countless mistakes were made that the people making them had no way to know they were making, and we still have no way of understanding how their past actions will continue to impact future events. Suffice it to say the Marxist-Leninist government of the USSR had a goal of accelerating human progress by building socialism and was completely prepared to sacrifice millions of lives in this pursuit if they thought it necessary.
Adam Parker
It's fair to say that it looks like that, but the article is made from lots of sources that differ ideologically between themselves, you have right-wing historians, communists, anti-stalinists, etc.
Leo Perry
-15 million
Slavery is not capitalism.
Isaac James
Well there in lies the problem really, if Leninism thought is such that anything can be done for the sake of "historical necessity", than I can't see any reason to subscribe to that means of achieving socialism. If any Leninists would care to respond than I would appreciate it.
Connor Collins
No.
t. M-L
Aiden Cooper
The real problem with Leninist thought is the central idea of having a vanguard party. If socialism is about empowering people with a greater role in decision-making you can't get there by trying to speak for them and telling them what to do. Socialism must come from the bottom up.
Justin Butler
The fuck is it, then?
Jaxon Powell
Carter Torres
Slavery.
William Baker
While slavery isn't unique to capitalism the Atlantic slave trade was fueled by capitalist interests.
Henry Price
The question is why people died.
Pre-revolutionary Russia was famine-ridden and hardly anyone but the Tsars had access to medicine and a proper doctor.
The many people who died from famine and diseases who are usually conveniently included in the figures on "victims of communism" didn't die because of but despite socialism.
Let me post, crippleshit.
Joshua Phillips
But what about intentional famines, like the Holodomor?
Elijah Torres
You should be aware, not everyone here gets their information from the 1930's Nazi press.
Brody Rogers
No such thing.
Landon Gonzalez
ask >>>/marx/ (don't ask, just find a thread on the topic, they have already answered just about every question you could ever ask)
Holla Forums has barely any theory anymore let alone history, you'd get the same results reading your average Bourgeois history book.
William Reyes
Did you say… Hodor?
John Collins
About 102 million people had died, if we assume that during 24 years of Stalin's reign Soviet average population was 170 millions and average mortality rate was 2.5% (1.5%-2% being official).
This is obviously a very rough estimate and does not include international crimes of Stalin (mass murders of foreigners - primarily citizens of Germany, Italy and Japan that died valiantly defending Europe from the Judeo-Mongolian hordes of Communists).
The actual numbers are around 700 thousand people (total number of executed people), but this presupposes Stalin's godlike omniscience and omnipotence, rather than Soviet government being a fractured mess of scheming factions filled with megalomaniacal professional revolutionaries that used every opportunity to get rid of competition. To put it simply: Purges were Party infighting, not Grand Master Plan. Stalin managed to win (and stop purges) only in 1938, when he put his pal Beria in charge of NKVD and a bullet into the head of previous head of NKVD.
Jayden Jackson
How many people need to die so that we can go back to horses? Over a million people get killed every year world-wide. WHO calculated about 1.25 million deaths in 2015 alone.
Well there in lies the problem really, if Automobilist thought is such that anything can be done for the sake of "transportation necessity", than I can't see any reason to subscribe to that means of achieving efficiency. If any Automobilist would care to respond than I would appreciate it.