Was America ever great?

Was America ever great?

American socialists seem to be divided into two camps: First, that American society was once very good (usually after the Revolution, during Reconstruction, or under FDR) but rightists then corrupted our society. The other camp suggests that American society has always been terrible.

The first line of thinking is particularly common among center-left demsocs, while the second is kinda idpol, because it usually focuses on the hypocritical oppression of women and African Americans in this society.

Which assertion is correct? Was America a leftist society betrayed by authoritarians, or has it always only served the moneyed class?

I'd say it has only served the moneyed class, thought shit began to change after the industrial revolution. Though before the civil war Americans were intently religious, so this may have helped cultivate a socialist ethos even at the cost of being mindcontrolled by the bible. But just as America became irreligious, so it became easier to severe socialist tendencies and worship the all might doller. It even got so bad in America some Babtist religions were even preaching that being rich means you have proven yourself to god, while being poor means you are being rightly punished. And that's how religious conservatives formed.

The first assertion is utterly absurd considering the American Revolution itself was just a revolt of landowners and colonial capitalists against the British Crown. Also even if that's not the case, America is built on the back of colonial oppression and extermination of the natives and the exploitation of slaves.

Fucking Americans and their fucking myths trying to hide their nation is built by the most rabid form imperialism makes me sick.

at least we didn't kill eachother like everyone else did in the old world.

Great at what? How about music? America has throughout its entire existence been phenominal at making music. From gospel, to blues, to jazz to ragtime, to stride, to marches, to musicals, to bluegrass, to rock and roll, to punk, to soul, to funk, to dicso, to psychedellic, to rap, to R&B, to grunge, to half the metal genres, the U.S. has been extraordinary, even more so than Vienna ever was. Historically, America is the music capitol of the entire fucking planet in a walk.

Politics, though? Not so much. I mean, they had one of the earlier bourgeios revolutions, but that was the extent of it.

The United States' origins were radically leftist…. for the standards of the time. We can't apply modern standards to the 18th century, because many post-1848 ideals just did not exist. Liberalism was, after all, a far left concept in the 18th century.

The problem of America is that it's become hardly more progressive since 1781. While liberalism was expanded to become more egalitarian, and while the interests of the worker are now somewhat better-represented, we still adhere to an 18th century document meant for a society in which only the interests of moneyed white men were considered relevant.

What the fuck are you talking about? Fuck yeah, we did! The Civil War is still the bloodiest conflict in American history.

While this is somewhat true, the society that the revolutionaries wished to create was pretty radical. They could have absolutely preserved the aristocracy present in every other republic (Venice, Florence, the Netherlands) but instead insisted that American society would be as liberal as feasibly possible, being based entirely on material hierarchy with no vestiges of feudalism.

Washington was pretty apolitical, but developed strongly meritocratic convictions. He shut down the Society of the Cincinnati pretty damn fast, because he feared the American upper crust turning into the royalty they fought to free themselves from.

IMO capitalism is inherently more ethical than feudalism. American imperialism is fucking shit, but not in the same weight class as the non-capitalist imperialism of the Nazis, Imperial Japan, or Spanish Empire

tell that to adorno

Like we need any more evidence that Adorno was a fuckwit.

America was founded by literal Satanists. It has never been great.

The first group are idiots attempting to appeal to right-wing sensibilities while demonizing right-wing. I have no clue what they figure they're going to accomplish with that "strategy". I cringe every time I see some "left"-liberal criticize the right and then follow it up with how some set of liberal values are "what America is all about".

The second group is correct.

Spooky.

George III pls go

Because unyielding patriotism is basically mandatory here. A successful socialist movement in America must be incredibly pro-America in its ideals.

Social fascism ho!

No

in what way(s)

Capitalism disseminates economic power more broadly than feudalism does. Feudalism concentrates economic power exclusively within the aristocratic class, whereas the bourgeoisie in capitalism are obliged to allow a fraction of their economic power to fall into the hands of the proletariat in order to legitimize their position. Peasant rebellions in feudal systems were common but invariably bloody failures. It took the bourgeoisie to overthrow the aristocracy, and they were only able to do so by way of the encroachment of capitalism. Likewise, it will take the proletariat to overthrow the bourgeoisie with the encroachment of socialism.

no

America is great because of the people who made it great, not the name it stands on.

Socialism will never work in America, because America values exceptionalism too much, and everything socialism is about is forcing everyone to be equals. No amount of hate-mongering towards the 1% will ever swayed the 1% from giving away everything (most) have worked their entire lives for.

This country was "founded" by basically social outcasts that didn't fit the mold in Great Britain. They fought against the establishment, and the Constitution was set up so that every generation could admire and become anti-establishment. That rebellious nature is why so many other countries had admired us in the past.

Yes, we're hypocrites, yes we're liars, but deep down, we all want that opportunity to excel, and be more than what we are. We held ideals that other countries were jealous of, and we were attacked in WW2 because of it. We came back full throttle on our aggressors and let the world know we meant business.

Then, sometime in the 1960s and 1970s. after many civil rights and other issues were being fought and won, a bunch of special interest groups started dismantling what made America great from the inside by poisoning our messages. These groups would gain power in government, and make laws that benefited a small group of people while punishing the masses. The old progressive messages got lost, and in their place doctrines of hate were born.

Those groups today spout these doctrines with the falsehood of equality, and they only hurt America even more with every law and special case made in their favor. Catering to these groups only shows how weak and willing we're allowing ourselves to be bullied into submission.

Every time I see a 3rd-wave feminist shame a male, every time I see a law passed to please non-deserving transgenders, every time I see corrupt businesses crop up to take advantage of loopholes from anti-trust laws, I feel ill.

The sensibilities of 1% or less is not worth the loss in freedom the 99+% have to endure. Our Constitution was created to fight these types of invaders, outside the country, and inside our own. I would gladly bear arms against my aggressors, even ones in my own country, to keep my freedom. It's only a matter of time before the tipping point, where we begin a second Civil War, where it's most likely going to be the socialists versus the capitalists.

I don't want that to happen. I implore you all, think about what I've said in earnest, true capitalism, with no government intervention, is the only way for all of us to have an equal chance at bettering our lives, where it's not being forced by the government or anyone else, just you.

lol

Actually, yes. Thanks to Holla Forums, in the Election General thread we were able to determine America was great for approximately a year during the presidency of Andrew Jackson, but that's about it.

lost it here. 8/8

Nazis were not non-capitalist. They had capitalism implemented with more governmental control, however. Corporatism is still a form of capitalism. Nazis were just anti-liberalism.

This is liberal horseshit, and it is "Christ was a socialist you know" tier.

Ideas such as atheism, socialized or communized property, state intervention in the economy, abolition of slavery, gender equality, welfare systems and many other measures that are far more radical than what the revolution created were already widespread in the 18th century. Just take Paine as a frame of reference and look at how conservative the revolutionaries seem compared to him.

Because capitalism does offer some limited social mobility. Your parentage is far less important.

Is this new copypasta?

Paine supported the revolution
Either way, it was certainly a left wing revolution compared the the fucking British crown.
It was still shit though, TJ supported proto-socialist ideas, but it was only economic security for whites at the expense of slaves

Not so much. The English Revolution had happened not a century prior, and the power of the state largely rested in the legislature despite the restoration of the monarchy which was being increasingly marginalized. Britain was already a liberal bourgeois state with only the vestiges of feudalism left over.

The Americans largely followed English Common Law when establishing their own state. They followed the same principles that Locke and Burke had already popularized across the pond. After achieving independence, the states and economies in the southern states were even more feudal than anything back home with the plantation-owners behaving a lot more like aristocrats than bourgeoisie. The elimination of the official aristocracy belied the establishment of another aristocracy.

Holy fuck this post

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forgot shitpost flag

I was hoping the first letters of each paragraph would spell something

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Can leftypol find a counter to that (except the US being attacked in WWII because of freedoms) ?

I can't tell if this person is for real.