Daily reminder the pedophile elites in collusion with the left will normalize pedophilia and there is nothing you can...

I read that as "feminism" and assumed you're literally insane.

The left is normalizing pedophilia. Pedophile elites rule the world. Sorry to break it to you but the LGBTP is next on the agenda. You may not like it, you may now want it, but the globalists have pedo normalization next on their agenda and nothing you say will stop that, loser stormfag.

I don't think it was always that way though.
I can't tell if it's corporate pressure infiltrating activism and trying to sell it.
Or spreading a message wider by appealing to others through social media instead of local things.
don't sass me bitch

Look up cynicism. Everyone only does anything if it pleases them. If you donate privately to charity, you aren't selfless, you do it because it gives you satisfaction. Everyone only cares for themselves. Regardless of why they did it, it's all because they benefit. They only want to help themselves. Everything is for them. Fuck them.

Gosh, y'all drop caustic comments like nothing. Even though the Internet connects more people together than ever before, it comes at the cost of weakening the normally humane and jovial response that one would find all across organic cultures. Bummer.

I'm a pedophile, I have everything to gain from its normalization, but I'm realistic: I haven't seen any evidence that anyone is attempting to mainstream my sexuality.

That's what happens when you give people anonymity, they show their true selves. They don't have to present themselves in some facade to appease society.

Your comments are cancer, too. Try saying something constructive.

Then you would accept you are a degenerate.

I'd like to think more than 0.1% of people aren't completely anti-social jerks underneath it all. People in private life aren't so cutting from my perspective. Oh well.

I did? I commented here (>>7357698
) about the OP.

I'm not sure that term is employed by anyone other than reactionaries and people who're addicted to the Chan subculture, honestly.

You're optimistic. That's your problem.

) about the OP.
I'm saying you merely stating our comments are shit I could simply reverse onto you, so instead, say something constructive.

If you are a pedo, I don't mind. If you are a pedo that seeks to normalise it, then you are a degenerate. Stop assuming why I use that word. I use it because it's factual.

When you're in my position, the only thing left is optimism and hope for a better future.

I don't think I've ever outright decried anyone's opinion as doltish. When I comment, I'm trying to give my perspective on what I'm knowledgeable about, hence why I mostly stick to pedophilia. When I contradict what someone else is saying, I always make sure to include why, coming from what literature I've consumed or my personal experience.

I think you're taking your opinion as fact; but beyond that, I don't think it's a stretch to say only a small clique of individuals utilize such harsh terminology, with the end goal being to shame the receiver.

You can call me whatever you'd like, you're a stranger to me, and I to you. I'd like for our exchange to be pleasant, but if you want to call me a derogatory word, then I can't say I'll be all that surprised given where I am.

Right, so being delusional.

It's easier to mould someone when they feel ashamed of what they are. You pedos should know about conditioning, right?

Why are you such an emotional whore? You got a vagina down there?

You're far too cynical, man. You've got to see the goodness in people; hope for a better world, and pray that maybe you can affect that world in a meaningful way somehow.

No. Contrary to what the media might tell you, we're not evil masterminds, hellbent on causing suffer and anguish in children, or anyone for that matter. We're pretty normal people, believe it not; the only thing which separates me from your average Joe in any tenable sense is my sexuality. I'm not the "sexual predator" everyone confusingly wants me to turnout to be. If given the chance, I and many of my compatriots would be perfectly content in having nice partnerships with children, much like how you'd like a emotionally gratifying partnership with a man or woman, with obvious adjustments being made for those children, of course.

Most people would take friendliness and geniality over crassness and downright hostility, so I'm not at all in the minority in this respect. Y'all seem to take some odd, frightening pleasure in being nasty to people you've never met and will never know.

Wake up politics is a joke the left has no child rape agenda.

I will, by purging all pedos.

You will always have an incentive to influence that relationship in some way to satisfy your desires. You're really passive aggressive. I don't get my opinions from the media; it's personal experience and common sense.

There's no reason to feel threatened or offended unless something hits too close to home. It's a great way to determine if you are what we say you are. It's best to appear emotionless.

Yeesh, what a photo. What is the world coming to. Everything is so much more damn violent these days. Straight from the birds to the niggers.

Scary.

And? I wouldn't force my partner to bend to my will to make sure I was satisfied, especially if it meant hurting them in some significant way which would effect them for the rest of their life. You're projecting a little too hard here, mate.

Common sense isn't all that great, to tell you the truth. Common sense not tempered by education tells me the Earth is the still, and that it's the Sun revolving around it. Or, that the Earth is flat.

I'm not a robot, man. It's wholly natural for me to want to be nice and have that kindness reciprocated. Also, falsely labeling someone could very well offend them. I don't know why you think it wouldn't when there are so many examples of it.

We call it grooming.

Prove it.

That's all too convenient.

It's called being selfish. Just because you're happy being kind to expect reciprocation, doesn't mean I am. You are like those customers in retail that expect workers to greet them with red carpet after they pull a smile. Fuck off.

take your own information since you assumed many things about my character. there is no harm in me accusing you of something which turns out to be false on an anonymous site. Like you said, I dont know you. The only reason you would be offended is if I spoke truth.

In psychology, grooming has a particular definition, applying when an adult or caretaker and the like exposes children to sexual media in order to prepare them for sexual exploitation. Grooming, however, does not cover merely desiring and working toward maintaining a healthy, respectful and fruitful relationship with children.

And before you say anything, I'm well aware that outside of psychology the term has an expanded range, but by that logic, the Prince of Wales has been "groomed", since he is the intended heir to the British Crown, and so was prepared to inherent the position upon the death of Elizabeth II, his mother.

...

No, I'm like the great deal of people in the world, in real life. People don't want to be treated like garbage or talked down to, and doing so makes them feel bad. People would rather you treat them with respect and courtesy. Not that unique of a perspective, mate.

Or it could be that people here are a little impressionable (like most people, I reckon), and already believe I'm the offspring of Satan, so I don't want more nonsense said about me or my people. That could be why I'm arguing that point.

Yes, you're a psychologist in training and think you are qualified to speak linguistics. When I say groom, I mean slowly caressing and exposing the child to sexual content in an attempt to take advantage of it. You know that's what I mean, but stall anyway.

I may be biased, but that isn't necessarily projecting. It's literally what I believe and my beliefs were consistent. That's a good thing.

You cannot compare human behavior to things outside that field, since all that is subjective anyway. I believe all pedos will in some degree groom the child since they're influenced by their desires, while you say no. We'll never truly know, but my side got larger support.

Yeah, every customer at retail. Fine, people dont want to be treated like garbage, I can accept that; but don't expect your kindness to be returned in full because you want someone to make you feel better. I say again, people giving kindness who expect kindness are selfish cunts.

So isn't hatred for pedos like yourself, but what's your point, mate?

Having your opponent respond emotionally opposed to a coherent argument makes it easier for people to side with you. Maybe you should just consider that. Again, if I'm falsely accusing you, prove me wrong.

(see attachment)

Got autism?

Probably.

when's pedophilia being normalized because i'm not getting any younger

Um, you realize dictionaries exist, right? You can Google the word and uncover its appropriate meaning. In psychology, they teach you the relevant definition, so when you used it in the conversation, I naturally thought you meant it that way.

Fine.

holy shit you're going ham nigger

Is that bad?

You really want me to acknowledge that you study psychology. Did daddy not give you validation?

;p

To clarify, I was saying human psychology is subjective. You claim one thing; I claim another. Look, this particular topic is being transcended to skies I don't care for. I think pedos will always groom to some degree if given the chance; you don't.

Just jabbing.

I was more attacking the idea than you. Sorry. I didn't make that clear.

I was calling myself autistic, but okay.

I would like to, though.

If they don't expect kindness in return, fine.

Im sure I had a point but forgot (I havent slept for ages). I dont think you should be proving an unfounded accusation false. My bad.

To what extent? People dont inherently hate you or you can now start fucking toddlers?

Well, see, now isn't that better than being mean or being misread that way? What do you mean, though?

An exemplar case of the argumentum ad absurdum; like I've mentioned at least thrice beforehand (to other people, mind you), I don't want (and the lion's share of MAPs I've spoken with) to sodomize hapless children. I'm not some soulless shyster, man. I merely want 2 things, and that's it:

1. Acknowledge and respect my shared humanity, meaning don't presume my personality based on my orientation (i.e., that I'm a psychopathic sex fiend), and don't discriminate against me without due cause. I've heard horror stories where perfectly decent MAPs have lost their homes and had their livelihoods ruined because people found out their secret, even though they were non-offending and never hurt anyone. (Ultimately, I would have to get my sexuality formally recognized as an orientation by the public; the APA is coming around already.)

In short, I'm normal, treat me that way. I don't want to be discriminated against because of my orientation.

2. Maybe permit me to have a meaningful relationship with the child I fall in love with (and yeah, I do genuinely find children to be romantically or emotionally appealing, just like you find men or women appealing). What I mean here is that I want to be able to walk down the street and hold my lover's hand, look into their eyes lovingly, and be able to take them out for a day on the town, if you will (so, a date in other words, except without the threat of being summarily executed in the street by fanatical weirdos).

I want to state here and now, once and for all, that I am not nor have I ever advocated for completely abolishing the protection we afford children legally, nor have I ever argued that children (in the proper medical sense) be allowed to engage in conventional sex, like intercourse, or anything more advanced than that like BDSM. That would be far too much for children; I realize and respect that. Maybe let me cuddle and get a kiss every now and then without being paranoid that some FBI agent is gonna bust my door in during the middle of the night—soft-core-type stuff, you know.

Sound reasonable to you, dude?

To be honest, this is all I can add to this intelligent discussion

great contribution

Completely agree; no rejections.

So a platonic relationship. How young we talking?

...

No, there would ideally be some sex and romance involved, but like I told another gentleman yesterday (or Friday, I forget) it would encompass outcourse, versus intercourse, which adults participate in. I'd like to be allowed to engage in things like mutual masturbation, oral sex, intercural sex, ect., etc. (Oral sex is technically penetrative, but it's a common exception, you see.)

In other words, things that kids could not only physiologically handle fairly well, but also what they could comprehend with decent accuracy.

Ideally, we would want kids to be able to understand what a relationship is at least on a fundamental level before they start engaging in it, so maybe somewhere around 7 or 8, during late childhood. If the parents agree to it and the kid is fine with it, maybe a little younger, but certainly not babies or toddlers.

We're not insane in the membrane, man.

...

Too young. I don't think we should be basing it merely on whether they understand the fundamentals of a relationship, but their morals, principles, identity and just reality in general. They are likely to finally develop an ideology that could conflict with what they experienced. This happened to me, and I personally don't think fondly of the situation and it's left a stain on how I perceive people. I think hebes got it right, to be frank. Mutual kissing and cuddling I can accept, since it blends into different areas (I realise it can be a sexually gratifying experience for you, but the child wont realise that). Anything sexual is too explicit.

They really can't push it in the mainstream. Most they get is a few salon articles here and there that still get massive amounts of hate. The moment they bring pedos as the next letter for LGBTBBQ++- the normies will realize the slippery slope isn't just a fallacy.

Reminder that they need it as a blackmail tool to keep the political establishment in check. They will never make it legal because it is the only blackmail strategy that guarantees subservience in the current year.

discussions about pedophilia are the only threads worth contributing to

I agree.

I'd have to disagree. I come from a good position which says that we underestimate what children are capable of cognitively of: an 8-year-old, for example, is capable of internal reasoning, and may even be capable of long-term thinking, abstract reasoning, before Piaget theorized they would, and, in fact, they ought to have developed some sense of an identity and their place in the wider world by then.

Moreover, you can get sexual gratification at nearly any age, so you're point there doesn't stick, I'm afraid. They may not understand every little detail about why I'd like it, but they're not blind to enjoying it themselves, is my point.

Also, an interesting thing you mention is ideology: A key answer that pro-reform MAPs give as to why children who've had inoffensive, non-coerced sexual encounters later go on to develop issues is the theory of sociogenic ("caused by society") and iatrogenic ("via the medical and judicial process") harm. To keep it blunt (and oversimplify it), when a child who's in a loving, caring relationship with an adult has sex with said adult (and they're actually okay with participating in it), they're overall fine with it happening at that time, but when they get older and inculcate the perspective of society (and should they have been run through the psychiatric gauntlet, that compounds on it, of course) they unfortunately develop a "victim complex", learning to hate their former lover and view that incident through a corrupted lens from how they actually felt then.

This model is actually pretty accurate, and I've read of plenty of cases where it's clearly the most obvious explanation. Now, I'm not saying it's the only one; but it's not too shabby, is my point.

I'm double majoring in developmental and counseling psychology in graduate school so I've read up a little here and there beforehand to prepare, if you're curious.

No, it's still a fallacy; rather, it's that the conservatives where right all along about the acceptance of homosexuality being the forerunner to the acceptance of child love, if we achieve liberation using the rhetoric the gays did (which I don't think will be possible, frankly. We'd have to modify it pretty heavily).

But none of that would matter if we showed the world they had it ass-backwards when it came to pedophilia: they we weren't the crazed nymphomaniacs they wrongly believed we were; and that we're not going to kill, kidnap and rape.

Regrettably (or fortunately for some), these pedo elite types think with their dicks not with their head.

...

...

All speculation, so I would prefer to play it safe.

I wasn't saying that. It was a small point so I'm not fucked to clarify.

I know about this and actually don't disagree. My argument is shouldn't we take this into account since we will always succumb to peer pressure and societal values, especially children, and just let them develop themselves more to suitable point to have a more thorough grasp on how they see themselves? Would you not say it's unfair to put them in that position. Shouldn't we as adults be responsible? You can blame society, but it doesnt change the fact people will be hurt in some cases. I also just have inherent traits aswell. I aint gay and prefer to dominate. Society didnt make that part worse for me, and it would have helped if I had more time to come to terms with this before the experience.

bruh, im tired and this thread will tank soon. I would say to exchange contact info, but we both have reasons against doing that. you cant please them all

Pedos and their walls of text wtf you'd think they could just get to the point in a few lines, clearly not cause it's all bullshit.

Chaika isn't sassy

hence why the pro-reform pedos want to simplify sex so it's not as big an issue as it is nowadays in society

Yeah, sort of. Anyway, it's not pseudoscience if that's what you're getting at; it's pretty widely acknowledged. Check it out, dude.

I am; that's why I proposed essentially what amounted to light contact, not heavy, sweaty sadomasochism. Fondling is just half a step removed from "normal" cuddling; mutual masturbation isn't much worse, man.

Another thing you have to consider—and I mean really take into account—is that you're not the one having to forfeit an entire lifetime of emotional, let alone sexual fulfillment. We are. I'm willing to play ball and comprise (which is why I came in with light contact), but I need something for sexual release, you feel me?

Naturally, of course. Listen, I'm not below putting my needs before children; I'm fully cognizant of the delicate (to say the least) situation that I'd put them in, but nevertheless I think that, being an adult, I could be a mentor and guide to them and help them grow up in a comfortable environment, where they're safe and protected from harm, and where they can develop their identity to its limit, free from any negative influence (or thereabout). I'm not trying to rush them, is my point. I'll merely help them along under my wing.

lol

Can't you just jerk off like a normal degenerate?

If you had the option of being with a beautiful woman or man, and masturbating alone, miserable with the knowledge that you'll forever be denied contact with those you most desire, wouldn't you choose with the former? You'd be a fool not to fight for it, no?

You can't ask me to forgo something so basic when you wouldn't do the same. (If you're some dude who can't get a girlfriend, then that's a whole 'nother story, my G.)

Crucify yourself, my dude.

Educate yourself.
>>>/younglove/34292

Let's turn this around. Let's say you're a non-pedo. Can't you just jerk off like a normal degenerate? What's your reaction now.

Also, most "normal degenerates" have access to porn; I don't (not legally, anyway). I ain't about to spend two decades in prison with Bubba just for some inane softcore porn, man.

A Sage! for that.

Yeah, you using words to trivialise the actual acts still isn't convincing me. You didn't really acknowledge the societal conditioning comment I made to a satisfying degree, tbh. I'm telling you that these perceptions can lead to trauma, and you essentially say "don't worry bro, I got this one".

Again, I wont take your word for it. You have a major incentive on top of all the other problems.

Are you a man or a women and which sex do you prefer? I want to know how someone can be romantically in love with a child. Not saying it's fucked, just strange. The idea of something being romantic seems distinctly adult. I have a similar weird feeling when I see milfs fuck young boys. Do they not prefer masculine men? Just feels unnatural. So how do you picture love with a stupid brat as romantic?

...

I'll pitch in here. Basically because (((Western society))) overcomplicates sex to the point of absurdity we have this bs. Without it, it would just be regular old humping, sucking and licking for fun.

why is mara is mara so perfect

dont make me kek
Yes, I can.

pornhub dot cum

How dark is your skin, user?

Im aware. Im saying since we instill these ideas and people will always be influenced by them, should we not be responsible and wait till they are old enough to be self-aware? not when they are 6 and dont know left from right.

Surely it makes more sense not to instill these ideas in the first place.

Read it and weep. The facts don't support your bigotry.

Waber, D.P., et al. (2007). "The NIH MRI Study of Normal Brain Development: Performance of a Population Based Sample of Healthy Children Aged 6 to 18 Years on a Neuropsychological Battery," Journal of the International Neuropsychological Society, 13(5), 729-746.

"Perhaps most intriguing are the age-related trajectories for raw score performance. For most tasks, proficiency improved dramatically between 6 and 10 years of age, leveling off during early adolescence (approximately 10 to 12 years of age), suggesting that for many neurocognitive tasks, children approach adult levels of performance at that age. For a few measures, scores increased linearly throughout the age range. These were tasks that assessed basic information processing, such as Coding, Digit Span, and Spatial Span. Still others were associated with a non-linear component during adolescence. Some showed a flattening of the curve followed by another period of acceleration, suggesting another spurt in mid-adolescence. Verbal learning actually reversed direction with performance declining in later adolescence."

Haidt, J. (2001). "The emotional dog and its rational tail: A social intuitionist approach to moral judgment," Psychological Review, 108, 814-834.

"Turiel (1983) has shown that young children do not believe [that actions are wrong just because they are punished]. They say that harmful acts, such as hitting and pulling hair, are wrong whether they are punished or not. They even say that such acts would be wrong if adults ordered them to be done."

Adler, N.E., & Matthews, K. (1994). "Why do some people get sick and some stay well?," Annual Review of Psychology, 45, 229-259.

"However, empirical tests show that adolescents are no less rational than adults. Applications of rational models to adolescent decision-making show that adolescents are consistent in their reasoning and behavior after the salient set of beliefs is assessed (Adler et al 1990). Quadrel et al (1993) demonstrated that adolescents are no more biased in their estimates of vulnerability to adverse health outcomes than are their parents."

Weithorn, L. A. & Campbell, S. B. (1982). "The competency of children and adolescents to make informed treatment decisions," Child Development, 53(6), 1589-1598.

"In general, minors aged fourteen were found to demonstrate a level of competence equivalent to that of adults. […] The ages of eighteen or twenty-one as the "cutoffs" below which individuals are presumed to be incompetent to make determinations about their own welfare do not reflect the psychological capabilities of most adolescents."

oh yea im weepin real hard ;-;

That's like saying lets stop racism. It aint gonna fucking happen. Also, Im not saying we shouldnt, but right now this is the way it is, and its gonna be that for a long time, even after people stop inherently hating pedos.

even if the neonazis take power they make pedophilia also legal because they all want virgin brides, which in todays modern day and age means girls younger than 14

i really really like this image

Most societies worldwide have been tolerant of pedophilia, with the exception of Anglo-Saxon faggots. Never has a society been tolerant of other races except for (((modern day society))). Connect the dots, tard.

...

I'm not trivializing anything, and I don't get how you arrived there, either. I'm sorry, but maybe being sleep deprived isn't helping you. I straight up told you that I completely comprehend the risk, and that I'm basically willing to do whatever I have to (including have whatever restriction necessarily placed on me) to make the relationship work.

I'm not a miracle worker, I can't promise you nothing will ever go wrong; that would be extremely dishonest and we both know it. What I can promise you is that I would fight ever day of my life from then on to destroy the current stigma and negativity surrounding pedophilia and child love, both in society at large and in psychology so that the risk is mitigated to the nth degree. On top of that, we'd naturally have restrictions placed on us to ensure we treat them fairly, like they deserve.

And in the end, all I or anyone can do is mitigate and marginalize the risk. We can never eliminate it, when push comes to shove.

I'm saddened to hear that. I still like you, though.

I think men wanting to bang men is weird. I think men dressing up in animal costumes and banging each other's brains out is pretty deviant, so you're not alone in that department. Regardless, I don't know why exactly people like what they like, I'm not a neuropsychologist or a neurologist, I'm a run-of-the-mill psychology major. I just don't know.

You've never been in love? Your hands get sweaty, your hearts starts pumping like crazy when you're near them, you get flush and go goo-goo-eyed. You thinking about them all the time and wanna be near them when you're not. You know the deal, man; it's largely the same for me. I feel love just as intensely as you do, I imagine. Now, I make adjustments too, of course, like I don't expect that they'd fulfill the same role an adult would, and I try not to pressure them; we'd keep the relationship casual, I reckon.

But if I could get away with it, I'd go to the movies, and the park, and the natural science museum with them, and then we'd have a picnic during noon on a nice sunny day and maybe go on one of those cheesy old swan-themed boat rides afterward to finish the day right—real mushy, lovey-dovey crap I'm sure you're not interested in hearing, mate.

...

Maybe

Yeah, the way I see it is that you can't if you wish for it to involve sex, at least.

No. Not ever.

This is my concern. How does a child (a stupid, innocent, braindead brat) manage to reduce you to such a sorry state; emasculate you; turn you into a 12 yearold girl who has a crush on the college kid. Im genuinely interested

You seem to regard children like you do in your fantasies, and they seem to behave more adult than anything else. If you would stop thinking with your dick, you would get out of your delusion and realise children arent and will never behave like that.

Well, nearly anything. I'm not being unreasonable here, don't even imply it.

Well… I dunno. Fall in love, man. Who rustles your jimmies? Who pulls on your heartstrings? Go after them.

You shouldn't. I love kids, and that's all you need to know, honestly. I mean, have you seen 10-year-old Julia Winter or 11-year-old Christina Ricci? Total bombshells with sweeter-than-candy personalities to boot. I'd be puddy in their hands.

I've come to enjoy your company, so I'm going to do you a favor and let that insult you carelessly gave me slide. I'm not just some mindless drone who wants successive one-night stands; you should know better by now, seeing that we've chatted for so very long.

My heart (and my head) is guiding me, not my genitalia. And if you forgot, I plainly said I wouldn't treat my kid like an adult. I mean, I literally said that. I don't know how much clearer I can get. This entire damn conversation has been me pretty much arguing that I know they're kids, so I'll take that into consideration. Don't get careless with your speech now.

The proper term you're looking for isn't delusional, it's romantic.

alright i kekd

I don't know. Making it seem like all your hard effort was wasted is awfully tempting…

Expectations are high, tastes are specific, and humanity is utter cancer. I accept I will die never going "goo-goo-eyed".

Okay, so you're the submissive type.

process of elimination i can now conclude you're a guy. also, you said 7 or even lower. that's what I find hard to believe when it comes to fulfilling a romantic relationship.

I was merely being hyperbolic. Your talk of compassion seems to have rubbed off as I can't bring myself to shame you after that cute spiel.

But you seem to perceive them as one, correct? No child would reasonably do what your fantasies allow them to.

What? No, I don't think that. Why the hell would I treat someone I believe is an adult like a kid? I mean, what the hell? I said I wanted to go the park and take a romantic boat ride, not hit the Las Vegas strip and go get hookers.

Bruh, go to bed already, you're rusty.

I'm dominant when I need to be, submissive when it calls for it.

7 is the standard beginning age because that's the "age of reason", when late childhood "officially" begins, but I'm more attracted to tweens myself.

Also, it's pedophilia; we don't want the exact same thing you do. Surprising, I know, but true nonetheless.

My name is Ellen.

...

Resorting to my lack of sleep as a defense mechanism is harsh.

I would but I'm milking this discussion. It's entertaining.

I don't think we should utilise all the perceived advantages coming with that title right way, wouldn't you agree?

You said you don't understand fags or someshit, then drooled over little ladies? You are a woman that likes what?

I'm glad we have IDs now, they said get rid of them but now we have pedophiles invading every fucking week. I'm not gonna lie, kinda degenerate myself for liking 15-17 year olds but fuck off with the kidposting. Take that shit to primejb or girltime.

This thread is 80+ posts of me saying how I want to be with children and how I'm not going to rush them, and then you come in and overlook that. Like, c'mon now. You're gonna make me become Ellen the Sage! again.

I think this conversation is getting a little old, and I'm getting a tad tired myself. I'll head off soon.

I didn't say anything about women getting it on, just men. Truth is, I may be female, or I may be a giant anaconda. Who knows? I surely don't.