I've complaint recently about how people now (Probably because new streaming media allowing binge watching) have grown...

I've complaint recently about how people now (Probably because new streaming media allowing binge watching) have grown impatient and want to watch a big character development every 5 episodes, a big emotional scene every 2 and a great lore discovery every 10, pacing be damned.
And they don't want subtle stuff, they want a big reveal every reveal, they don't want a subtle line that can pass as reveal if you think hard enough and have been paying attention.
I said this because I just saw the latest epísode of Star vs. the Forces of Evil, that was some masterful pacing as contemporary cartoons go considering that had two seasons of build-up.
The plot may be very simple and straight but that directing and pacing just blew Gravity Falls away, because it doesn't spoonfeeds you (And GF doesn't really spoonfeeds you compared to many contemporary kids shows already). I love it.

But I know that Star vs is just decent as far as this aspect goes.
Does Holla Forums recommends another shows with good build-up/delivery that doesn't spoonfeed?
I know its hard considering that kid shows are for kids and tend to spoonfeed.

I can't agree with everything you said but you're right.
Public nowadays has the attention span of a retarded monkey and get bored easilly if something that doesn't appeals to them isn't happening.

I think a well-paced buildup and story structure is important, but equally important is keeping a consistent tone. I can't get into Star vs because the goofy slapstick feels out of place after the overarching plot and fairy tale mythology is introduced. I've seen this with RWBY too, where the humor contrasts with the dramatic set pieces. I suspect this is the fault of a bad director who wants every writer to feel free to contribute, sacrificing consistency as a result.

I'm struggling to think of a series that doesn't spoonfeed the plot, because there are very few animated shows I know of with overarching plots. An easy answer would be Avatar TLA or Teen Titans, but it's been so long since I've watched either of those that I can't remember whether they paced the plot well enough or not. I'll go out on a limb and say they did, also X-men Evolution I remember had an engaging plot I remember most of the last season was buildup to Apocalypse, apparently they planned for the next season to cover Dark Phoenix before its cancellation

I tried watching that.
It's fucking Star on aspergroids I don't understand how anyone can like it, Mike Oum surely can't direct plots, because even without the contrast just by episode 8 is autistic as shit and forced as rape.

About the contrast I've never thought it was such big of a problem because it was about characters new in this sort of problems.
But the excuse is better done in Star since she's a lone teen with her best friend, not part of a militaristic school.

Man, if you had not fucked up Monty's name this would have made for a great set-up for a joke about him being dead.

I don't think the thirst for DEEPEST LORE can be blamed on binge watching, but high expectations for what are essentially filler for kids

I'm not saying is a craving of DEEP LORE. As you said that's just a consequence of autists wanting their head canons to be true, but that DEEPEST LORE actually getting delivered is consequence of people getting bored faster than ever and shows loosing their viewers due to it.

Can anyone remember if Super Robot Monkey Team Hyper Force Go! had an actual plot to it where shit happened and things were resolved? I can hardly recall that show myself, it's been years and flew so low under the radar it was practically subterranean.

It should be in the list on good pacing.
It didn't had an specific plot that I remember, but things did got more serious as it b progressed.
I really like when series do that, when near the end of the series the plot arc starts just to realize it started almost a season ago but it was so subtle you didn't realized.

Problem is people don't expect real plot in cartoons partly because shitloads of them are cancelled arbitrarily before they ever get to the actual plot after seasons of filler.

Or to be more specific; they're cancelled before they ever reach any satisfactory ending point, which is usually delayed until it's too late.

I think cartoons back in the day used to be not ALLOWED to have a satisfactory finale because they want kids to keep watching reruns in hope of seeing new episodes.

Isn't that what happened to Angry Beavers?
The show was set to have a last episode where the characters realized they were in a TV show that was being cancelled, but it never got aired because Nick wanted to dupe people into thinking new episodes might still come out, if I recall.

That last episode sounds pretty good tbh.

What if a show just wants to do gags?

Then they better be good or else you get Teen Titans Go!

Like Yu-Gi-Oh abridged?

I see your point, however I've always felt that the issue is that unlike the three shows you listed new shoes that try to move from episodic to arc form insist that once they've revealed their plot they get to go back to majority "filler" episodes. Adventure Time and Rick and Morty in particular are the worst offender's of this where the former is also guilty of incredibly poor resolutions to the plots they do try to follow through on.

Venture Bros, to me, is the best example of a show that you're describing. As each season goes by more and more of the world is unraveled and isn't afraid of changing the status quo.

DEEPEST LORE is retarded. A good cartoon shouldn't hinge on cockteasing its viewers with 'muh lore' every few episodes.

it's nice to have a well paced character development, but when the character is the show it's to be expected

I like exosquad and shit was always happening in it but character development was very well paced

The problem has a lot to do with how show seasons are "ordered" by the network. Many get only 1 or 2 seasons greenlit, and irregardless of their efforts (unless they become incredibly popular), most will not get anything beyond that.

Generally, you're more likely to find well-placed buildup, character development, and proper story structure in web comics today than in current cartoon shows. Of course, finding the good ones is the challenge.

I'm with you, user. I got a guy who complained on how a show took too long and he didn't know how I would like said show so I asked him how often does the show aired. He said "Five days a week, with back to back reruns on weekends and sometimes a marathon" I just shake my head and said "Motherfucker, I only got it on weekends, no reruns, no marathons…and you complain about it taking too long?"

it's worse when there is development and they snub it like pacifica


god damn

Well, this is kinda out of left field, this isn't exactly a cartoon, but it isn't exactly anime either.

But oh holy shit, do not expect it to be Power Rangers. This is the manga-ka who gave us Violence Jack and Devil Man, and he treats his characters with about the same care as George R. R. Martin, so anyone can die. Actually with Go Nakai it's more like, is anyone going to be left at the end?

And THE BEST THEME SONG IN THE UNIVERSE.

Brian May and Eddie Van Halen, I'm not even kidding.

Well..Go Nagai can be light hearted and fun (eg: Cutie Honey and classic Mazinger) and then be grim as fuck (Devilman, Mao Dante…Violence Jack.)

Dubs is that Brian May singing at the beginning?

...

It also goes the other way by people dropping a show because the silliest thing.
The only difference is that autists now have a voice.

These shows are aimed at children, who are probably not the ones issuing demands for character development and lore discoveries on the internet.

It seems that American TV is moving more and more towards story-driven rather than episodic or mostly episodic shows. I guess streaming and binge watching may have something to do with it (although binge watching has been popular since DVD box sets), but I think it's more that people decided they like those shows more. It isn't a sign of impatience any more than movies are (all character and story development compressed to two hours or less). Animated shows are way behind the curve, but adults and older teenagers watch them too and they expect more than just episodic entertainment.

In anime, short shows of 52 episodes or less have always been common, and have become more and more common over time. Continuity is the norm, whether it means a beginning and an end, a mix of story and non-story episodes, or every episode advancing the story. Hayao Miyazaki's Future Boy Conan in 1978 for example had 26 episodes with a complete, self-contained story, and I don't think there were any extraneous episodes. Japanese TV dramas have about 9-12 episodes and don't commonly get second seasons, let alone more than that. So it's not like episodic shows are the universal gold standard and Americans have fallen from grace by wanting something else.

If you want your shows to be episodic and static, that's fine. But if you want to introduce narrative into the mix, it's crazy to insist that it should take entire seasons before anything happens, or that it's unreasonable to expect anything to happen more often than every five or ten episodes–and even then you shouldn't expect anything except very subtle developments or just "lore." This just comes across as trying to rationalize the lack of story in these shows, spinning it as "masterful pacing" and claiming that the critics are just suffering from ADD and need to be spoonfed. Clearing your throat for two seasons before you start to think about maybe introducing a bit of "lore" is an absolutely idiotic way of telling a story. Go look at something like Steins;Gate (24 episodes) or Madoka Magica (12 episodes) to see how it's supposed to be done.

And would you believe that's the best way to watch some shows. Two episodes a week with no reruns?

I think you're right here, OP. I mean, I don't watch the younger cartoons much because I don't have satellite any more and I'm never stoned enough these days but I've noticed in comics and their adaptations, people seem to expect DEEPEST LORE DRAMA as much as possible. But there's a weirder bit too, they want this, but they're unwilling to put up with mysteriousness to get there. It's like they want an overarching thing, but also for each lore question to be wrapped up within the space of an episode.

I've noticed it with the new Preacher show, people say it's really good, which it is, but they also say it doesn't build up enough. Now, that's kind of true by modern standards, but it does really. Each episode advances the overall goings on (even if that's sometimes left until the last minute). Then comparing it to Daredevil, I reckon it's really similarly paced, just Daredevil releases season by season, and Preacher is episodic.

People are used to binge watching everything now so it feels like a year when there is some character development episode in a kids show even though its been 4 weeks since the last one.

That's because Alex is a hack.

Yep, that's Angry Beavers. THEY EVEN RECORDED THE VOICES FOR THE EPISODE. Which can be heard here.

The "controversial" part is after 8:45 has the Norb and Dag talking about the show ending and being "re-run-incarnated" and they (the network) makes money but the show creators don't. Also I assume the "shut up" near the end is a reference to the time an earlier episode got "shut up" bleeped out.

bump

Makes you wonder how we coped with shows like Reboot and it's stretched out seasons over the years.
>Season 2 (1995, lore slowly begins and includes the mention of a destructive incident affecting the city before the series started, ends on a cliffhanger the loss of Bob to the Web)
>Season 3 (1997, consists of 4 story arcs, half of which are trying to get back home to Mainframe while trying to find Bob but showing more scope of the "Net" and the "Web". Also mentions a future threat (known as Daemon) that could affect the entire Net. This season ends with nice ending that wraps it up pretty well, no cliffhanger).

Basically ReBoot had it's 4th and (sadly) final season based on lore mentioned 4 and 6 years earlier.
I will say back a kid watching it, I don't remember the lore mentions from S2, but I remember it from S3 (and I didn't even know of S4 (or watch it) until late 2007).

Does anyone else remember this or any other stretched out production series with lore?

It'll only get worse once they just start dumping entire seasons in one go

I agree, I've seen how people are willing to drop series more easily if they aren't pandered immediately.
Companies must be afraid of that.

Kinda makes me ask for anime though.
Like the new DragomBall.
IIRC the first 30 episodes are an adaptation of the last two movies and the ones until now are a new arc but now its going to start with filler for first time in over a year.
In 1990 that isn't so bad, but I wouldn't know how modern audiences will take it.

Also Naruto, which call me /a/utist I actually like if I acknowledge is just ok.
It took around 700 episodes to end the whole stuff and that just recently, 700 weeks which is a punishment, but in binge watching the pacing is nearly perfect, up to realistic lengths of character development.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Part of cartoonists trying to escape the label of "just for kids" is experimenting with more advanced plots, which the audience accepts.

It's a risky venture since cartoons are often cancelled for bullshit reasons regardless of performance.

Lately it's this and a mix of "combos kept alive for bullshit reasons regardless of performance."

Faster internet brought us great things like better communication and easier access to information. But the downside we became impatient beasts. This what I feared the most. We no longer have patient for everything.

I mean look at many animations. Back then 22 minutes are common staple for big budget animation but now people want to spoon fed faster story because they are fucking impatient bastards. So 11 minutes stories became more common. Even Steven Universe was plagued with this disease.

Also true, people want plot twist everywhere. I blame TV Tropes for that.

I remember when I watched Saint Seiya. There's no rerun, just one episode every wednesday and friday.

Go Nagai is not just a man. He's THE MAN. He changed Japanese cartoon and manga on its head. He caused so much ruckus he actually fought with Japan's National PTA. His comics were brave enough to explore sexuality, bad behaviours and death. His first comic was so controversial it (was forced to be) ended but he went out with a bang. He murder the entire characters using Japanese riot cops.

So when you said he treat characters like GRR Martin, I'm not surprised. Go Nagai is the father of modern Japanese comics.

Holy shit that was fucking AWESOME!

I saw how many people starts to despise monster of the day style episodes in western shows. People even whine about Agents of SHIELDS's first season.

I saw a cancerous tumblr user that want to drop STFOE unless Marco turned into a trans. I was like what the fuck?


Oh American cartoons. The for kids label is really a curse.

I'm with you. I remember watching Dragon Ball as a kid (from the original to GT, mind you) on weekends with no reruns or marathons…and when I hear Yanks complaining about "LOL, they're still on Namek?" I want to slap them in the mouth because they don't know how fucking lucky they have it with daily showings AND reruns.

Remember, Devilman ends with everyone dead….and sets up Violence Jack. And Uncle Go's the man who also made Mazinger Z, the granddaddy of Super Robots but does the Western folks care? Fuck no..more references to NGE please.

Live action shows have hour long episodes and people can't get enough of them. Animation shows probably have 10 minute long episodes just to make them cheaper to produce.

Violence Jack is not a walk in the park either. It even have naive women and children characters in the first half only to end up getting murdered or raped in the final half. Go Nagai doesn't fuck around. Because of him we got Yoshiyuki Tomino, the creator of Gundam that pretty much push the concept of PTSD before it's a thing in animated TV series.

I was hoping that The Simpsons is the rainessance of western animation by introducing much more mature story telling. But sadly it only created a branch of animation that went into a horrific decay (Family Guy, Cleveland Show, current seasons of the Simpsons).

What a shame really. I mean the original Ben10 run for 22 minutes and it gave us enough entertainment and action once a week.

Aeon Flux was similar, but not as lore heavy or stretched.
I suppose Young Justice S3 might be similar, as there's now 2 seasons that were made at the same time as well as a third which is being made after the fact, and 3 years after the creators have gotten a bunch of feedback.
Wouldn't be surprised if Greg decided to retcon some of it.


The bright side of a whole season release at once is that the creators now can see every episode back to back for consistency and lost plot threads.


How can a disease be plagued with disease?
:^)

Monty Oum can't direct shit.

he's dead.

It could be a bacteria infected with a phage.

unlike dragonball z

the filler is actually entertaining. Namely because it doesnt try to act like it's part of the larger storyline. It's more on par with Dragonball's humor. Which is nice to see after years of cheesy fighting shit as "comedy"

Namely because Toriyama is not at the mercy of Shonen Jump this time around.

If you're going to do lore or deep plot shit don't wait 20 episodes. I only have so much fucking free time.

That's other thing, I believe things like Stranger Thnings/True Detective/Over The Garden Wall and much many miniseries could be better as movies.

Especially ST, seriously that shit was vapid as shit, many good ideas but the directing was just pop culture non sense, like if the director was using everything but his own experiences as inspiration.
Next Twin Peaks my ass, shit can't even handle Gravity Falls.

True Detective's first season was at least 8 hours long, which would means at least four movies.

True Detective work well as a series because I hate it when writer crammed a good story into a 2 hours movie. Unless you're just too much of an ADD kid.

The writer was a hack, the director saved the whole shit though

Well, I think it really all depends on pacing. If a show that was primarily focused on comedy suddenly has a sense of story underneath it doesn't balance between the two progressing forward, it splits expectations apart. By raising that bar above the regular randumb show, it sets expectations on what the show is becoming for the show itself and its viewers.

Introduction of a continuous plot kind of does that. Steven Universe and Adventure Time suffer from this. Some might be the fault of different ordering of episodes than what was intended. Others are that the episodes between are just not as good so it becomes agonizing to sit through when you have to wade through sub-par episodes before it gets good. Whether it's progressing the story or just being a fun filler episode.

Besides, I've never seen a show that was a plot driven story at first, go back to being a randumb show, be good or last long. You either change up the show to match the direction its going or falter toward the finish line when you're forced to end it.

I don't have too much opinion about Adventure Time because I felt that each episode was designated to be stand alone with the exception of several story arcs. But Steven Universe…

First of all I found out about SU literally last month. I finally watched one of the episode and I say it's pretty okay. So I decided to watch it from the beginning. While many people praise SU as one of CN's greats, I found a lot of flaws in it.

The first 5 episodes were such a mess. They never introduce who is Steven and his stone gang properly. The cookie cat eps confused me greatly. Heck, even the beginning of Supernoobs was better because they actually pretty clear and establish the series premise pretty clearly. With SU they probably riding on Rebecca Sugar fame alone to promote the series so they don't give a fuck toward establishing the lore.

What I really found interesting is that at the beginning GF starts so strong but besides a handful of episodes Star is pretty weak.
By the end of both series season 2 is pretty obvious that Alex Hirsch was a hack help up by the show directors who actually had talent and Star vs is a much better crafted series.
Although I do remember that GF was fucking hilarious with that early Simpsons streak, the humor jumped from season 9 Simpsons to Season 18 as soon as episode 34 though.
Star Vs humor was very erratic at first but by episode 11 the improvement is very obvious.

Weirdly enough, Gravity Falls is apparently a case where Disney was all for three seasons at least, but Hirsch burnt himself out. Considering he was writing, VAing several characters AND directing, makes sense. He probably shoulda delegated more.

Sounds like they didn't want to get a story going until they were sure they'd get to actually tell it.

I think Star starts getting stronger when they establish that her being a spastic retard ISN'T supposed to be a charming waifu quirk. At least it's realistic for a literal teenager.

TTG has some fun parts, but is wildly inconsistent. Family Guy problem, probably.

Also, it may be a stealth adaptation of It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia.

Waifu does not mean what you think it does.

He didn't direct most of b the episodes.
And he only made the early drafts of the scripts, except for the important episodes.

Steven Universe is pretty weird and sparing with exposition, more 'hit the ground running' to say the least. I think the idea is that the audience learns along with Steven just how messed up things are around him and how much people are loathe to tell him.

Look, even when the creator wants to make the series on 60m/ph from the start at least put some explanations. I always generous enough to give cartoon or anime 5 episodes test run. But if I watched SU from the beginning I will drop the show after 5 eps.

let's hope that made him a better director

otgw is way too long to be a movie, even with all the cut-out content they had

I think naruto is great, 6/10.
Namely because literally 4/10 is pure flashback.

But that 6/10 is really good though.

6/10..sure, if you mean sometime up to the Sound Four arc but after that, it's downhill from here. Hell, they have a fucking flashback backstory..during a fight with I think Neji stopping IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIGHT NO LESS and telling Naruto his sob story. Fucking hell, at least Dragon Ball tells the backstories of some of the contestants in the World Martial Arts tournament before the fighting starts.

I meant the whole franchise.
And if you've only seen until there then let me tell you that I can safelly say a good eight of Shippudden is flashback.
Pain arc is the peak though.
Although I was always frustrated because Sakura never gave Naruto a blowjob, and oh boy, did she owed him many.

Eh..I gave the whole franchise a 4. I do recall Shippuden degenerated into the Uchiha Dick Sucking Hour..hell, Naruto's dad even praised Sasuke.

the problem is that cartoon writers are hacks.
you have to have a specific goal in mind from the beginning, you can't make an episodic slapstick comedy and try to shoehorn in a plot, and you can't make a plot-centric adventure and only tell dumb jokes.
It just doesn't work.

That's because the creator is gay and he doesn't admit it, but he always talk about how the Uchihas are his favorites, hence the mary sue-ing. Being that the case, I don't know why the fuck the franchise is called Naruto when there's more focus on the fucking Uchihas.


Consider that they're making cartoons for kids. They have to somehow make it enjoyably for kids. My problem is, writers somehow think kids are brainless retards.

I gave Naruto 6/10. A bit above average. At least they still their characters well. Unlike Bleach that's pretty much just poured characters to us.

that is true, but consider adventure time: it was clearly created to be a show about the surreal/comedic adventures of two guys in a weird science-fantasy world. It was interesting when they started introducing small amounts of background and plot to them, like recurring plots or characters, but they fucked up royally by botching the whole Lich thing HARD.
He was introduced, shown, and defeated within less than 2 episodes. From then on, with the melodramatic relationship garbage, them botching the one interesting thing (Ice king's past), and so on.
The show fell apart because the writers had no fucking idea what they were doing.
Steven Universe has a similar problem, yet it was present from the very start. They wanted it to be a plot-heavy-relationship-episodic-monster-of-the-week-character-focused-action-adventure-comedy-drama-whatthefuckisevengoingon.
What you said is also a problem, but the people on the "cartoons can be for smart people too" side have this problem badly.
a show like Bojack Horseman knows exactly what it wants to be, and tells a coherent story within each season. Spongebob knew exactly what it wanted to be, it was a completely episodic comedy with very little continuity beyond small things here and there that don't get in the way of telling a funny story.
you can't have your cake and eat it too.

how much do we have to lower the bar to say things are good?

Most of the characters in Naruto are shit except for some of the minor and secondary ones.

Stop using US average system. Or I prefer to call it "Snowflake system." WTF with 7 = above average that's just accommodating low achiever fuckers.
1 = Just fucking quit and live in your mom's basement
2 = Horrible, improve soon or get a 1
3 = Improved a bit, but still shit
4 = Getting better but still need more training
5 = Average. Just like most fuckers in class
6 = Above average. You can brag if you want to you fucking underachiever (and go fuck your big tits waifu Hinata. Oh wait you can't)
7 = Good. Pretty much series with this score can go to most chan users summer/winter watching list.
8 = Very Good. Rarely got shit but still criticized sometimes. Also appear regularly in chan recommended list of all time.
9 = Excellent. Pretty much loved by almost everyone.
10 = Masterpiece. This one will survive for years to come as one of the best and referred to by many.

At least they are still used by the creator to an extend. Bleach on the other hand just there because the writer got writing block. Titty Kubo is almost like Jeph Jacques except he can draw hotter girls.

Is more like its enjoyable.
Like up in this thread they said Stranger Things was some vapid unispired shit.
And this is true, the series has minimal mistakes but its like they wrote "How to make a functional plot according to tvtropes" but it has no soul.

I some series you can tell when the writers are exhausted or don't like a certain plot point.
In a weekly writed series like Naruto is pretty obvious when some things have love from the creator or don't.


Gravity Falls was 8.9 in IMDB, I ended up putting it a 7.9.
Twin Peaks had a 9.0, I put a 8.2, because even if it was a third part fuck up, episodes 9-14 of season 2 exist.
Stranger Things is a 8.8 as how good crafted it is, but is not enjoyable, it feels synthetic AF.

lowering standards like this, no wonder test scores keep dropping


I've seen Naruto, it sucks badly

That's been like for the past 30 years.

then stop lowering standards

We never lowered them, you just have vet high expectations.
Back then there wasn't internet to appeal to people so if something was shit never got followers.

Besides
We never said Naruto was good, we just said it was above average, which if you count the amount of Animu that gets released its technically true, the majority of the animu which dictates what average is gets a 5.
6 isn't good, good starts at 8, but technically is above average.

Problem is with ratings is that everyone has their own standards for them.

5 star ratings in particular have a bad history of suits looking at them, going 'Anything below 5 is awful, kill it' and so everyone has to cheat the ratings to avoid getting fired/cancelled.

That's why it's fucking retarded. 5 was considered bad rating so they bump it to 6. A couple years later and people got offended when they received score of 6 so they bump it up to 7.

It still not including the video game ranking system for video game magazines both prints and online. It's a completely different beast.

from the sounds of that, it seems like the best option is to finish what we started in the 40s

Exactly, why the hell the series is called Naruto…when Sasuke's the focus? And honestly, I find Sasuke to be loathsome and a poor man's Vegeta or Hiei. At least Vegeta and Hiei have good qualities to them.

Honestly, I found it good up until the first time Konoha got invaded. And even then, along the way it's not that great especially around the fights. I find Ino/Sakura fight is just bad, especially their motivation (a friendship broken…because of Mr. Charisma that is Sasuke) and the pretty pointless recap episode prior to the Forest of Death which along with the written exam bit is what I actually like (Ninjas being ninjas!)

yeah, anyone else sick of tournament arcs? they're literally one of the laziest plot devices for writers to introduce new allies and enemies

I say this when one of my favorite animes, Yu Yu Hakusho, has like 2 of them

In Dragon Ball, they were used sparingly and it's usually a treat (especially when they went with the effort to have a special title card just for the tournaments). In DBZ, the tourney's a joke (and a gaping plot hole. Seriously, no one remembered the moon exploding, the giant ape, the ring turned into a crater or the return of the Demon King?). I do however love the Dark Tournament arc in YuYu Hakusho…not a fan of the Demon World tournament arc. Something about that arc just doesn't feel right to me.

If I was to write a tournament arc, half of it would be the tournament bouts featuring MAIN HERO, and the other half would be SECONDARY HERO running around the backstage of the tournament fighting bad guys in less conventional ways. That way you can have your cool tournament fight scenes, but also keep the plot ball rolling (albeit more slowly and quietly than usual).

Or pull a Kinnikuman in the tournament story arc. There's a reason why I love the Throne arc (even if Super Phoenix is bullshit)

This is why I love Pigmario. It's an old manga but no tournament arcs. Pretty much the entire story is just him murdering his way into Medusa lair to revive his lover.

I think it's in part because of art schools, back in the day art schools taught you to express yourself, SJW's or stormfaggots didn't matter as long as it came from you, now they just teach to make a product, kinda like the Stranger Things tingy and to appeal to popularity or worst than popular opinion is right.

I heard it was something cultural and japs really like Sasuke, the same way they thought Goku was a spoiling father or their favorite arc is the Buu one while in the west is either the Frieza or the Androids pre-cell.

I kinda like the idea that between the protags regularly using the Dragon Balls to return everything to normal and never bothering to explain themselves, everyone basically doesn't believe any of that crazy shit actually took place anymore and there's little real proof. I'm not sure if the DB-era tournaments were even televised. It's like if your grandma tried to convince you that no really people used to shoot lasers from their hands and jump thousands of feet in the air in her day.

More like certain demographic though. Naruto main target audience is junior high and senior high and for them the silent cool guy is the best character. Also the girls love Sasuke.

For DBZ maybe because it was the gritty 90s era in the west darker characters like Frieza and Androids were pretty popular. But in Japan it's target market starts from elementary school and up so the wacky hijinks by Buu was the popular one.

Isn't that implied in the Dragon Ball GT finale? As time goes by the chi ball techniques are gone forever. Oh yeah spoiler alert fuck DB GT tho

Kinda reminded me to David Lynch, Holla Forums always bashes him for being a degenerate (Making movies about degeneracy instead of nationalistic propaganda actually) but like, man, he's actually doing cinematography.


Considering how surprised people was by this at the beginning of Dragon Ball I think its safe to assume that there's periods when chi technics are lost, but Master Roshi's immortal.
I kinda liked that special, but yeah fuck GT in general.

OMG it's all clicked now.

Chi technique varied from race to race. The Namekians are pretty natural with both using and sensing chi while other race need intense training or device. During the Namek/Frieza saga you can notice several Frieza lesser soldiers wore a device on their hand to fire their chi blast. So we can assume not all race can harness chi well.

So from that I can arrange a crude timeline:


The rest is Dragon Ball History. Except GT Fuck DB GT

One little hiccup…it's Ox King, not King Cow and the nameless Namekian that would later be known as Kami had to physically split his evil side after some contact with some evil humans (yup..the Demon King was born due to humans being bastards) and yeah, fuck GT for having Piccolo being in Hell.

Xenoverse, IIRC, is based on Gohan actually writing and publishing a 'How to fly and shoot beams from your hands' book, so everyone with an interest in working out can learn to use those abilities, if only for convenience. Basically the ending of Shaolin Soccer.

That'd be a fun storyline. I bet Gohan interviewing people for the book would be hilarious.

Xenoverse is considered canon right? Like the concept of alternate universe. They also going to bring Broly to Super.

Considering that Xenoverse's story is a continuation from Dragon Ball Online (which is confirmed canon) then yes..it is canon.

Yeah

Heie never repented. Vegeta did, Sasuke tried.

Heie remained an villainous asshole.

…You sure?

Because the Androids were just piling on massive assbeatings. While basically being 110% Made One Earth. It was kind of surreal and amazing. All that crazy bullshit Goku did….biting him in the ass.

Well, Goku was on the shelf for most of the Cyborgs arc (seriously folks, they are not androids)

Does Broly learn to fight and go shitstomping everything in sight?

Nah..Broly's more power over skill and even then he's powered by rage.

Its heavily implied that that woupdnt have mattered vs 16-17-18.


Think about that massive overkill though.


He built those fuckers to take down the same guy that died to Raditz for fucks sake.

Died to Raditz? I think you should rewatch that. Piccolo killed Goku.

And even then, Goku improved considerably post Raditz.

Remember when this thread was about good pacing?

Well, it was about the different pacing between medium…I think?

A few of them, 16 and 20 (or was it 19? the fat one) were full on androids, I think? As well as the early ones. Gero seemed to have been experimenting with both technological and biological superweapons to see what worked, and his ultimate creation was fully biological.


Because Raditz fought Goku to a standstill, mind.

Funny thing, Goku actually wins as much because he diversifies his fighting style as sheer brute force and talent; he learned the Kamehameha from Earth, and Kaio-Ken basically prepared him for the idea of going Super Saiyan, and Instant Transmission from a random alien planet. The bad guys tend to blow up anyone in their way and destroy knowledge they could benefit from, while the first thing Goku does when he arrives at the place is see what cool shit they can do and ask them to teach him.

Here's the thing though..people kept painting Goku as stupid and to be honest, he's a genius in terms of fighting but he's book dumb.

Could also add that as well as his diverse fighting style he also has a "diverse" not SJW diverse line up of friends/allies with different skills to team up with. And this includes teaming up with former enemies like Piccolo (against Raditz) and Vegeta.

DBZ is far more diverse tho. The main hero is an illegal alien adopted by a local and married one. His former enemy now friend is a sentient plant man and his older brother working to protect the earth. His right hand man is a pitch black man and his second in command is a cat. There's also a guy with no nose and a guy with three eyes and a zombie midget.

Hell, even the king of the world is a sentient dog!

I think with Goku it's a matter of motivation, and Saiyans in general seem to have a lot of trouble finding motivation to do anything but train, fight, and eat. And occasionally fuck.

Combine that with an isolated upbringing and poor social skills, a skewed view of the world from fighting all the time for fun and profit since he was a literal child, and literal brain damage, and it's kind of a wonder he turned out as functional as he is.

Maybe not stupid, but definitely kind of dim, lacking in common sense, and having a view of the world that's definitely subtly alien compared to humans, and even Namekians. He'd basically be a thug (as most Saiyans were) if he wasn't so good-natured.

A sentient slug, actually. Not a plant man.

Well, motivation and possibly intelligent in terms of combat considering that he managed to create several variants of the Kamehameha among other techniques.

He certainly isn't stupid, he can operate spaceships and probably knows a fuckload about nature and even anatomy, at least as far as keeping himself in top shape.

…does make me wonder if we ever saw a fat Saiyan. Dear god, they'd have to eat a literal mountain or so.

Slug still not to eat for nourishment. Plant only need water because it's already infused with all kind of nutrients in it. Also his training consist of mostly meditation. He collected his energy from absorbing nutrient from the air and free flowing energy.


He found the muffin button…..

I like to think Goku doesn't have brain damage, just that when he fell off the cliff and landed on his head, his infantile mind processed it as "The Earth just kicked my ass, so I should respect it."

If only RWBY could've died with him.

Plants also absorb nutrients from the soil, though. Toriyama said that the Namekians were inspired by slugs and snails, though I think mostly in the regeneration stuff. They are kinda plant people. (ironic given it's the Saiyans that have the plant naming scheme)

Ironic naming more likely. Saiyan names are based from plants. Plants are usually tame and docile, the exact opposite of The Saiyans. Piccolo is a kind of musical instrument. Music tend to be entertaining and lively. But The Namekians are dry and humorless.

I love how anywhere on a chan, no matter what the board or topic people will sit down and discuss Dragon Ball Z.

bump

Your bump didn't do nothing…