Marxism and the Holocaust

lol, because it literally is?

Have you ever bothered to look at the opposition and see if maybe just maybe they're right?

I'm a gamer and one of the guys in my group who I've known for years started talking pro-Trump shit, so I challenged him and basically the guy is a literal fascist and a holocaust denier. I argued with him a shitload, and while I wiped the floor with him on ideology, he wiped the floor with me on the holocaust. There's no way for me to have a shred of self-respect and believe in that fucking lie anymore.

What's more is that I see now that the holocaust narrative/lie is basically the bourgeois ticket into the hearts and minds of the proletariat. It's literally the most pro-Capitalist narrative there is, and obviously the basis for the existence of Israel and international Zionism, which is a fucking travesty in and of itself.

Why are you people so fucked retarded when it comes to the holocaust? It's just another set of chains and shackles the bourgeois use to misinform and misdirect the proletariat from knowing the truth of history, especially that Stalinism was cancer and shouldn't ever be conflated with Marxism proper.

I asked you why so tell me

I think I told you in

A) It did happen. Saying "noone was killed in Treblinka" IS Nazi Ideology.
B) It had more victims than just ZE JOOSE.
C) WTF HAS STALIN TO DO WITH IT?

Holy fucking shit this guy is just a gold mine of kek-worthy quotes.

also,
>implying this isn't what reactionaries have always done
>unironically believing that the Nazis didn't do the Holocaust despite explicitly endorsing it in their ideology
How do you do, fellow leftists?

oh well why didnt you say so

Provide some evidence m8

Wowwy zowwy

Fuk i should never have answered ,this is some quality bait

I really don't care what you retards actually believe about the holocaust. If you're so fucking stupid you're incapable of looking at the opposing (true) position, then I can't help you nor do I want to.

However the fact remains that there is nothing about being a Marxist that means you can't also be a holocaust denier, and denying the holocaust does NOT make you pro-Fascist.

Give us some evidence

You're asking me to prove a negative. That's not how this works.

The fact is that the evidence FOR the holocaust is faulty and inaccurate, and there's just too much to go through, and I don't care to because I don't need to prove to you or anyone else what I believe myself.

But, I do want to know why essentially ALL Marxists thinks believing in the holocaust is a pre-requisite for being a Marxist.

Even if I were factually wrong, it still doesn't make me pro-Fascist.

Lol, you can't even decide whether to blame the "hoax" on bourgeois Zionists or on Stalin.

You're going to have to try harder than that Holla Forums.

Uh, it's both you fucking imbecile.

The Stalin regime crafted the lie to carve out their pound of flesh from the Nazis, and the Zionists ran with it with wings on their heels.

checkmate.jpg

Can you say why the evidence for the holocaust is false then?

Of course you can be a holocaust-denying marxist. You're just not my comrade though

Since you're probably a Stalinist piece of shit or some form of Maoist retard, that's very likely true.

right, I just took his word. totally.

Not really, im a Leninist. Now, tell me why the evidence for the holocaust is not true

Name something you think about the holocaust that's irrefutably true and I'll go by what I know.

kek finally, ok, what happend to the six million jewz? Did they just disappear?

Show me a shred of evidence for the six million figure.

As bad as it is, left-wing Holocaust denial is an actual thing. The French socialist activists and (ironically) former Résistance fighters Paul Rassinier and Roger Garaudy are often considered "fathers" of Holocaust denial.

There was a very small circle of leftist intellectuals (some of which Jewish nonetheless) who engaged in and defended Holocaust denial starting in the '70s, most of them revolving around the "Vieille Taupe" — an originally left-communist bookstore owned by Pierre Guillaume, who transitioned from Bordigism to Holocaust denial and then flat-out to the far-right to the dismay of most original members.

It's a marginal, virtually insignificant movement denounced by the vast majority of leftists, though.

So, can you be a Marxist AND a Holocaust denier? Historically, as I said, a few Marxists did turn to Holocaust denial, that's a fact. However I personally believe that once you start obsessing specifically over how the Holocaust "didn't happen", make that a cornerstone of your worldview and have no qualm teaming up with neo-Nazis to promote it… you in fact cease to use a Marxist approach to history and politics.

whats alt left

The problem with this phrase is that it's too ambiguous and declines into a meaningless buzzword in most conversations.

Is questioning the six million figure holocaust denial?

What constitutes holocaust denial and what doesn't? Do Holocaust deniers outright deny that any Jew was killed intentionally by the Nazis? Do they deny the existence of the camps, or just the exterminations within the camps?

Your whole post reeks of "le current year" moralizing. Just be more specific about what you mean when you say holocaust denial.

I don't fuckin know, resd this wikipedia article (lol)

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial

Well see, the holocaust lie directly contradicts a healthy progression of materialist history, since it's a giant bourgeois lie propagated by Capitalist oppressors.

I believe if the proletariat knew the truth of the holocaust lie they'd be THIS much closer to class consciousness, since it's literally one of the biggest sledgehammers against rationality and class action against the elite.

If anyone goes against the holocaust narrative they lose their livelyhoods, or their families, or even their lives.

The bourgeois love the holocaust lie, which is why they brainwash the proletariat with it year after year. There are more movies about the holocaust by orders of magnitude than any other historical subject.

Idiot.

White nationalists that tacked "uh, and capitalism isn't very good I guess" to the end of their manifesto.

No it isn't. What makes an Holocaust denier is quite clear.

It depends on the context. I can see why historians would want to be accurate about death tolls — they're often discussed and controversial. But Holocaust denier only question the "six million figure" insofar as it can help in their broader enterprise and not as an history-centered end in itself.

Holocaust denial is claiming that the Holocaust didn't happen i.e. that the Nazis didn't willingly mass murder Jewish people in a planned fashion. They usually make flimsy attempts at falsifying the agency behind the extermination process, then skim over other significant mass killings and try to morally justify the rest.

No, because that would obviously be too grandiose a claim. Holodomor-denying stalinists don't pretend not a single Ukrainian died in 1933 or that Gulags didn't exist — they say it was accidental and that the victims were reactionaries anyway.

What the fuck does my post have to do with that meme?

Once again, the content of Holocaust denial is quite clear.

No, it literally depends on who you ask.

If you ask the EU, holocaust denial can literally be interpretend as saying only 5,999,999 Jews died.

Read their fucking laws against holocaust denial.

Yeah, this.

Their laws are pretty questionable.

Uh, what?

[citation needed]

… No it isn't? I don't see any connection between the proletariat "realizing" the Holocaust is "a lie" and class consciousness. Actually, I'd go as far as saying it has, you know, nothing to do with it.

No they don't. Holocaust deniers are alive and well. They just tend to be ostracized from scientific and intellectual circles because of their gross disregard for facts and more often than not obvious connection to neo-Nazi figures.

I'm not sure what exactly would the bourgeoisie gain by "brainwashing" the proles with the "Holocaust lie".

How is that exactly surprising? The Holocaust is a major, singular, multi-faceted event of immense magnitude in recent history, it goes without saying that it would attract much attention from social scientists and artists. The same goes for the slave trade, for example. Add to that the bunch that are in it because they now documentaries about it are gonna be profitable anyway, and it's no surprise there's a glut of material surrounding that part of history.

Need a formal/legal reference on that.

being a holocaust denier doesn't make you a neo nazi or a pro fascist

it just makes you and idiot

smh fam

goddamn i'm and idiot sometimes

I don't care about the tiniest details of anti-Holocaust denial laws, some of which are criticized by people who strongly oppose Holocaust deniers themselves. I made it quite clear what Holocaust denial is usually understood as, and how that applied to some leftists such as Pierre Guillaume. There is little ambiguity to be found in this.

this fuckhead just walks in here and tells us the holocaust never happened. Then when anyone asks him why his response is
go fuck a knife, faggot

You're not OP, you're pretending to be him.

This whole thread is a ruse cruise anyway. Sage everything that moves.

Toppest of keks that Bordigists of all tendencies went along this narrative. Bordiga's own writing on the holocaust is considered anti-semitic by some.

libcom.org/files/Amadeo Bordiga Auschwitz.pdf

...

ops, forgot to remove my shitposting flag

It is good to see that the puttana of fascism is still alive and well.
Never change, Trots. Never, ever change.