How does Holla Forums feel about the role Superman played in The Dark Knight Returns...

Well, remember, after the Comics Code, it was mostly frowned on at all to have a government official portrayed as the badguy. The stories where it happened before the 80s were few and far between. So the idea that Superman was loyal to the government wasn't nearly as big a deal then compared to the fact that Batman WASN'T. It was a more radical idea portray the US government as corrupt and shortsighted. And a lot of people consider Frank a fairly conservative guy (as far as comic creators go) and portraying Reagan in such a light was pretty wild at that time.

Ignoring DK2 (for many reasons), DKR really does feel like Frank has an understanding of Superman. As in, he obviously prefers Batman, but he understands that Superman at his core is doing what he feels is right, even when he's in the wrong. In some ways, he's like a good knight serving a corrupt lord. He still has his nobility, but his loyalty is misplaced.

good point. guess I underestimated frank miller whwn it came to super man.

The government is never portrayed as the bad guy in Dark Knight Returns. Heavy-handed, yes. Miller certainly makes fun of Reagan. But Reagan sends Superman after Batman because Batman is breaking the law. Superman has this sense of absolute right and wrong and views what Batman is doing as wrong, failing to understand that Batman does what he does because that's Gotham City and if it's going to get cleaned up, Batman can't work within a system like Superman does.

It's been a while, but isn't Batman fighting Superman portrayed more as a desperate and tragic thing?

Yeah I think so but I think it can come off as Batman being superior to Superman. Then again thats what all those TDKR fanboys seem to exude. By TDKR fanboys I mean the ones who've only read TDKR and treat it as the definitve version of Batman and have little interest for the character besides that.

It is

...

wow the bit from Clark changes this a bit. I kind of wish the animated film captured more of this.

very apropros for the time. this was basically hot off the heels of the silver age superman, who was a very patriotic feature

I guess from that point of view it makes sense. I was more used to the later Superman I guess.

superior to superman? hardly
dude's planned for years, had to walk around in power armor that was also basically a hospital bed, started off with a tank and several rockets, only got him to break a sweat by the time he shot him with kryptonite

those are some incredibly UGLY drawnings

Miller's isn't known for his drawings
the light and shadow, on the other hand, are actually pretty great

You forgot he hit Superman with an atomic bomb first, before any of that, to soften him up.

batman didn't do that, it was the commies

okay, here's a followup question
considering how general consensus is that this story is usually decent to outright goood

how does everyone feel about Cap and Iron Man in the original Civil War?

…Feel?

idk, haven't had my coffee yet
i guess i'm asking if people feel similar about them
like if Tony was acting like he was unnecessarily wrong or out of character when doing some of the more drastic shit

Tony is kind of presented as being irrational from start to finish, mostly from going crazy over Ultron, not to mention he's already portrayed as having PSTD from Avengers.

The whole movie is basically Tony having a big emotional breakdown.

not the movie, the series

While DKR does build up to a fight between Bruce and Clark, the reasons for it are simple. Bruce wants to do things his way, Clark wants to follow the law. You know they have a great respect for eachother, but they also feel the other is being stupid. Since it is an elseworlds tale, it also is more about the core of the characters, and that core is presented in story, with an obvious focus on Batman as he's the protag.

Civil War is, on every possible level, a fucking retarded mess. A lot of it is the normal laundry list of complaints that probably should be brought up whenever Civil War is mentioned:
-The set up was weak in a world where various Avengers have killed WAY more people, kids included, than the New Warriors ever dreamed of.
-The Registration Act doesn't make perfect sense from several angles, until it basically settled into be a draft.
-Various tie ins where contradictory
-Every major villain or potential disaster was on vacation so the heroes could focus on punching eachother.
-And worst of all, the escalation of things was retarded and out of character.
The characters more or less because their Ultimate versions for the whole conflict, meaning any nobility from either of them was thrown aside. You had Tony throwing his friends in prison and helping to create clones of Thor because he's a "futurist". And he feels bad about it, but he doesn't do anything to improve things. In comparison, in the movie he's much better written, already going through a lot, constantly trying to reason with Cap, and he ultimately would have bent the rules to HELP Cap, if not for decades of parental issues being the final straw that broke him.

Cap is just uninspiring. I mean, except for the speech he gives to Spiderman that you always see (which he completely contradicts with his final actions), he just comes off as an idiot and weak. They know he doesn't have enough reason to even start the fight, so they have Shield try to shoot him. It's lame ploy to say "Now he HAS to fight!". Hell, there are several times where the government just does things that seem intent on killing instead of capturing. I'm pretty sure there is a part where they FIND OUT that Patriot is bulletproof by shooting at him. Even absurd shit like the Thor Clone going crazy and killing Goliath seem just there to force Cap to keep fighting. He's a character whose entire motivation doesn't logically lead to violence except the Registration side is hilariously evil and violent. Everything he does is just a response to something stupidly evil, yet he can't even inspire all his people to keep fighting?

I could go on all day, but there are reasons people consider DKR a definitive work, and most people will tell you the movie was much better for Civil War.

Was there even any rhyme or reason to who they were arresting? Vigilantes with no powers, superhumans who never turned superhero, foreign nationals, aliens, robots, magical creatures, immortals, and did they never just try rounding up all the mutants with sentinels, or did they decide not to go after the X-Men because Jean Grey Phoenix says fuck you?

Like for some reason mutants weren't part of the act, even though it seems EXACTLY like a mutant registration act. Like, it just had a huge plothole on it because they didn't want it to be all about the X-Men, but they'd seriously blow up Luke Cage's house at 12:01 AM the day the act is enabled? Like… why? Remember, it wasn't always CLEARLY a Superhero Draft, it was talked about like "just register, that's all they want". So why would Luke Cage have to register? YOU ALREADY KNOW WHO HE IS!

Civil War is unmitigated shit and you should feel ashamed for even mentioning it in the same breath as Dark Knight Returns

Keep in mind that Civil War happened after House of M and Decimation. By the time Civil War happened, I think most of remaining mutants were under guard at Xavier's school (with piloted Sentinals, ironically enough).

She was probably dead at that point.

Movie was alright, but I thought they severely underplayed Stark's capabilities to give Cap some leeway:

way i heard it spun to me, it's not necessarily "you have powers, you must sign" like the mutant registration act, but it's more "you wanna be a hero, you gotta sign up" kinda deal, which is significantly more reasonable

these people are vigilantes, regardless of how well they work with the police. I can see keeping their identities private while on the job, but the government still has the database to know who is who and hold them responsible when they fuck up (human torch burning down a college) or go way off the rails (hulk rampaging in vegas)

still, the motivations behind many of cap's actions sound retarded as shit

mutants weren't a part of it because there were like 200 of them TOTAL left. house of M just happened and scarlet witch nuked most of the mutants' powers

I thought it would be a decent comparison, especially with Batman V. Superman coming out not long apart from Captain America: Civil War

both are the same concept. two superheroes collide over different ideas and ideals, both former friends and long time teammates

only one was executed much better than the other. i guess the one constant is always true
Miller>Millar in everything

Funny how Batman v Superman was just as shit as Civil War for quite a few of the same reasons, but Captain America: Civil War actually managed to salvage Civil War and make something somewhat decent out of it. It's almost like looking at Bizarro versions of the DKR and Civil War.

kek

anyways, yeah. that's why i think the capeshit should be left to an animated medium. TDKR was better than Batman V. Superman ever was

Yeah, if it was presented as that, it would seem pretty reasonable. But, and maybe there was a tie in I didn't see, but I don't recall much mention of people just QUITTING. Which would be an option. And it seemed like damn near anyone with powers, even ones horribly unsuited for combat, were then trained as part of the 50 States Initiative after. And, I don't know how many, but at least a few niggas who never should have been in a fight at all got fucking killed.

Which is crazy, because obviously registered heroes has some advantages. The entire kick off to Civil War 2 would have been resolved if they had a list of heroes they could call upon at anytime, chosen according to their ability to handle threats. So that when Thanos comes around, you actually bring people like Iron Man, Thor and Hulk.

It just hit me and I'm sure other people have asked this in the past:
Why didn't Bruce hide the gas kryptonite inside his suit, like the acid gadget? Why did he need Green Arrow to be involved in this? We know Batman had kryptonite hidden in his utility belt on a number of occasion without soup noticing…

hah, Carol fucked up because Cap had to be a jackass
don't worry about any confusion regarding how the registration act went. too many writers for all the comics involved in the original Civil War were changing what it would entail on a whim largely because of different political views (as compared to the almost entirely left-leaning hivemind they currently have)

here's an idea for a modern-day civil war. registration act for anyone who wants to be a hero and one major hero quits because he thinks his private life is too important to give up
so he lives out the next few months as a civilian while the other heroes are still going at it. one day he's stuck inside a bank during a robbery. only way he can get out is to use his powers and accidentally kills one of the robbers

his identity is out there now and he's arrested for acts of vigilantism and he's got to defend himself in court. media's against him because the robber was a minority or some shit (even going so far as the president saying "if I had a son, he'd look like that robber") and the robber's family is trying hard to get him on highest charges they've got

The last part is obviously too much of the dated "stolen from the headlines" shit that we have now, but I like the rest of it. You could even bring in more drama from times the hero could have helped or been there for the other heroes, but someone died in his absence.

I think other anons have said it, but if an event just lead up to a good She-Hulk court case instead of a fight, it would be pretty interesting.

how about she-hulk vs daredevil court case?

The only explanation I can think of (a flimsy one though) is that kriptonite is actually harmful to humans too, it's just that kriptonians feel the effects 100x stronger or something. See: Luthor getting cancer from carrying that kriptonite ring all times,

Best plan to defeat Superman was Gene Hackman's in the original movie. Putting on a metal bat suit and punching him is honestly pretty daft, not that I'm complaining in earnest.

With ASSBAR and DKSA in mind, I wonder if Batman is even meant to be a proper anti hero in DKR, or just a nutjob who happens to be the protagonist, or if Miller just changed his mind at some point.

but didn't Luthor inject himself with liquid kryptonite in some animated feature?

I think it was Batman and Superman Public Enemies.

well, from our perspective, it's a great way to get another hero in the story in this time period and give him an important role

from the perspective of the characters, Supes is always going to think Bruce has kryptonite hidden somewhere on him. why else would he be wearing a lead-lined suit? he'd expect it if Bruce just hit a button or something to that effect only to release some kind of gas

with Oliver, it's more likely to be an explosive arrow than one that dispenses synthetic kryptonite into his lungs

I'm fairly certain Miller wrote him to be at least somewhat insane. I mean, how else do you justify a grown man running around in a bat costume and picking up little boys off the street to be his sidekicks??

Kal did what Ronnie told him to do "because it's the right thing to do" but also because that was part of the deal.
If he hadn't taken the deal, they would have killed all the remaining heroes, remember?

Luthor did some… questionable things at the end of his presidency.

The metal suit had a lot to do with putting a show for his "death", and also to prove to Clark that he (and perhaps through extension, humanity) didn't need to be babysat by Superman.

The authoritorian argument is easily demolished by the fact that supervillains and their organizations infiltrate the government on a daily basis. It'd just be a matter of when somebody with a grudge cracks whatever database there is and starts making a hit list. Even the most powerful superheroes aren't going to put themselves in a position where their loved ones are always in danger.

He didn't plan to beat Superman, just batter him a bit in the hope that he'd finally see reason

There's a definite shift from Miller's Batman in the 80s to Miller's Batman in the 2000s. They're not really the same person

dude mellowed out with 30+ years of being an alcoholic
but there's definitely some strong signs that Bats is nuts in TDKR. things like seeing shit that isn't there, leading an army of punks to strong arm thugs and looters, etc.

When did this ever happen?

first place it comes to mind? when he confronted Two-Face

That was symbolism you idiot. He didn't actually see Two-Face as a monster

you sure? did Miller or anyone say anything on that?

He didn't have to, it was obvious to anyone with a basic level of reading comprehension

Which is exactly what happened to Parker. And then he fixed it by getting the Devil to abort his future child from the time stream. FUCK!

I haven't torrented the film because I know pretty much what happens when there's a film (or comic) with Batman AND other important characters.
DC can't stop sucking batcock so they will make everyone shittier just so Batgod can shine brighter. I honestly never cared or wanted this movie since I really don't like Miller's TDK Returns.

Helps if you've watched BTAS, where Twoface has a very distinct tone and timbre.

I don't think it's the same thing, but Kryptonite is basically a radioactive isotope, that seems to cause cancer or a condition similar to it (tumors, maybe) with very long-term exposure.

Batman keeps it in a lead-lined container both to avoid affecting Superman when he doesn't want it to and to avoid side effects like that, though he may or may not have known about it, I'm pretty sure Bats has the sense/paranoia to take precautions. Lex walked around with it next to his dick for years because he loves the idea of Superman not being able to get near him.

Also, the plot of the Captain America movies. No wonder he doesn't want to take government orders given the Secretary of Defense was HYDRA.

Possible explanations:
1)He didn't want Superman to see it and then dodge it, which is why he had Green Arrow fire it while he kept Superman distracted

2) He didn't want to risk being unable to deploy it because Superman had battered him too badly for him to use it

That was Post-Crisis. Pre-Crisis, which is when this was written, Kryptonite only hurt Kryptonians.

It's worth noting that they proceeded to make Cap a fucking retard by having him become director of Shield and doing the exact thing he told Tony off for, building a superhuman database.

I think when he's in the love tunnel and tells Jokers burning corpse to stop laughing at him.

You mean when he's really badly injured and losing a lot of blood? You mean then?

yes.

Live action seems like a necessary evil, because you can't get a wide audience to go see an animated version of Captain America: Civil War, ironic as it is when Disney owns it. When you get down to it, there really isn't much in the way of live action film making for superhero movies. Budgets get big over actor salaries, special effects have the risk of drifting into the uncanny valley, and you have to work with the limitations of physical cameras and equipment.

That said, I think if Warner Bros. took a chance and restarted their universe in animation with the talented people they've had working in their animation department given BvS. level money, or some equivilent, you can bet it something glorious would come out of it. Hire some up-and-coming voice actors (or the old ones if you really want to) too so that shit doesn't get insane

Is what I meant to say

you already risk playing to a niche market with doing superhero movies, i don't see the problem with making it animated while you're at it

give it the DCAUs borderline hollywood voice cast and you'll pretty much be set