ITT we discuss the US minimum wage. what should it be?

you mean that 80s sex comedy?

$15

Bullshit. Within two decades 50% of minimum wage will be automated away. There's no stopping it. In the mean time we can make life more comfortable for this generation.

But that will just get rid of 50% or more of the $7.25 jobs.
A store with 20 employs won't start paying them all $15/h, they'll fire half of them and make the remainder to twice as much work.

also bulshit. The vast majority of small busineses (but more importantly the large businesses defined as "small" through manipulation of legal definitions and the many large businesses who also employ so many minimum wage people) can absorb the higher minimum wage with only a drop in profitability. They just don't want to.

Minimum wage is the right idea with a shitty execution. It causes businesses to shrink their workforce and reduce benefits, just as the capitalists say.

At our level of technologically-enabled abundance, the problems caused by unemployment and underployment would be better solved by universal basic income. With it, people with no job or a shit job would cost society less than they do without it, due to lower healthcare costs and crime rates. Nearly all other social programs could be wholly eliminated if UBI were instituted, and since those other programs have significant administrative overhead dedicated to figuring out who qualifies that UBI wouldn't need, the measure could be nearly tax-neutral.

This will never happen, because it would mean a smaller proportion of rich peoples' tax money going right back to them in the form of subsidies, contracts, and other largesse. By 2030, robots will be better and cheaper than humans at nearly every job, and the labor market will be eliminated. Looking at our two presidential candidates, I feel it's pretty likely that, rather than even trying to solve that problem through any kind of relief program, our leaders will simply start looking for ways to reduce the population. We aren't needed and never will be again, so they're not going to feed us, no matter how little it costs them.

except that's not true. There's a limit to how much a person can do, and that limit is called "productivity". Productivity doesn't change by how much you pay. Not at those levels. Minimum wage workers are already working their asses off, knowing there are ten people standing in line for the same job.

I agree with UBI. In the mean time make minimum wage a livable income. inb4 Scroge says "it's not supposed to be livable" Life isn't like the utopia in your brain. Real people have to live on minimum wage, bu the millions, especially with the recent massive rise in underemployment.

what does your post have to with the fact that price controls are a terrible idea?

If we used tax money to finance free health care and clean water and an affordable university instead of sending the army to fuck up some sand niggers in their own land, installing dictator in third world country and waterbording teenagers , we wouldn't need to raise the minimum wage.

You're really not getting it, my dude.

A $15/hr minimum wage would do absolutely nothing but hasten our replacement by machines. The actual fact of the matter is that robots are already better than humans at nearly every job, including white collar shit. The problem is that robots that capable are expensive.

But not $15/hr + health insurance expensive. Raising the minimum wage that much is basically saying "fucking bring it, high finance! I want the hunger wars to start NOW, not in ten years!"

Don't forget all dem benefitz 'n programz for Israel.

Israel is literally the fat black woman holding up the checkout lane on the first of the month.

Even at that, they'll still fire half their workers.
I worked at GameStop in Florida a few years ago, and when the m. wage increased by 42 fucking cent in 2012 they reduced the staff by two members. Shit like that will happen at a much larger scale if you basically double minimum wage.

You're overgeneralizing. It's a price control, but humans are not a fungible good. It's not okay for a human to be priced out of the market and starve to death. The fact is the value of the bottom 40% of the labor market is below the cost for a human to live. In the mean time automation is rapidly raising that percentage. UBI isn't going to happen until things are truly desperate but a higher minimum wage will at least ameliorate the chaos. Raise minimum wage, give welfare to the newly unemployed (that number will be far below what most conservatives believe), and wait until technological unemployment is so obvious that UBI becomes politically feasible.

Why do you think mcdonald are now using only a cashier per shift, for people that don't have a card for the machine.

Not sure if you noticed, but the people who have the money think it is. They want that to happen to as many of us as possible, in fact.

I agree with you completely in your foundation, and disagree with your conclusion. There will be no hunger wars because the politicians are still sufficiently beholden to the American voter that welfare will at least feed the poor. I also disagree with your assessment of the affordability of the higher minimum wage. I ALSO disagree with your belief that businesses will choose to lay off a significant number of workers before automation takes hold. The bottom line is whether keeping the person can earn the business a dollar more than not keeping him, and that means keeping 98% of present workers and continue hiring at only a slightly reduced rate.

More importantly automation is a long-term investment and the market is poor at making those. A higher minimum wage will encourage earlier automation. As you say, automation is inevitable. The sooner we make it happen the sooner we can realize the benefits of it.

The jew were place in the middle of all those arabs because we did not give a shit about either of them.
There would have been enough place for them in the usa. But we didn't really like the Jews (not enough for it to be worth killing them), so we placed them with people we don't like either since the arabs used to be ally with the Soviets.
So we thought they might as well just kill eachothers while we look like heros.

This.

Costs will have to be cut probably not by 50% reduction in work force.

If it must be increased it should be $10.10. Alan Krueger(who created the study that suggested minimum wage increases may not substantially cause unemployment) thinks it might can be up to $12.

If minimum income tax brackets were above 30% instead of functionally negative, and costs were reduced for businesses(like not making them pay insurance) 15 would be plausible.

People make comparisons to Denmark and Norway, but they have a union "effective minimum wage" instead of a government one and respectively 50% and 38% income tax with a 25% sales tax comes up significantly below 15$.

Immigration actually helps keep those low since a limit in labor gives that labor more bargaining power, hence why right wing (actual right wing not online groups) only pay lip service to migration control but in practice actively excuse illegals and encourage migration. Win, win, win.

HAHAHAHA OH WOW

If you're smart enough to see that a labor crisis that can only be solved by UBI is on the horizon, how the hell can it have escaped your notice that the American citizenry has been completely cut out of the loop of federal level politics for decades, as well as any state large enough to matter? Modern data-driven gerrymandering makes voting totally irrelevant all by itself, and that's far from the only too in their box. This not a republic, it's a plutocracy.

Raising the minimum wage does nothing unless you also make it illegal for companies to find ways to cut corners and whatnot. So you have to find those ways to basically make sure that the only thing diminishing is the profit of the employers, never the amount of workers, their benefits, hours, etc.

Subsidizing wages has both pros and cons. Would help smaller businesses for sure but corporations would use it as a way of maintaining profit to the detriment of the taxpayer.

Let me amend that.

I think it is inevitable that we will secure our freedom at some point. But things have to get much, much worse first. The power structures that truly govern the US have no reason whatsoever to listen to voters, and are approaching a point where they needn't even pretend to. This will only change once enough people are starving that we start voting with bullets rather than paper.

Not only rich people would be against UBI. The entirety of the public sector won't accept moving from their cushy positions and benefits to a glorified welfare check. Current welfare recipients won't move from their fat benefits + extra money per each kid, to a small check.

UBI is as much a fantasy as Kurzweil and Fresco futurism.

So what happens when we are replaced by machines anyways? How will humans survive?

Oh yeah, definitely had nothing to do with the location. And those responsible for its construction were basically a powerless and disposessed people. Like the migrants of today, with nothing but blankets and their meager belongings, oy vey!

Not to mention the massive rise in Unemployment over the last decade amongst younger workers.

I'm for UBI for the sole case that it helps people who do not have jobs. The only way I see UBI working though is if you can make more money than you would on it as an incentive to not be on it. Would people be able to invest money they get from UBI? I'd love to do that so that I could become independent from it.

I've noticed that many people do odd jobs or tasks right now, but receive no pay for it. Something needs to be done before we have too many people who can't make enough money, as far as I can tell, UBI is the only viable solution brought forth so far.

The market will take care of it.

elaborate?

You have no idea how the fuck UBI works.

It doesn't mean "everyone gets the same amount of money." It means "everyone receives this amount of money, in addition to whatever else they can manage." As such, there is no reason to believe that those working in the public sector would stop being paid.

As for current welfare recipients, hi. Those benefits aren't fat. "A small check" is a great way to describe what I get, far too small to live anywhere but my mother's storage closet. Even with a total cost of living that most people would consider a blessing, I run completely the fuck out of money by the third week of every month and have to beg, borrow, and deal for the last one. This is coming from somebody who lives in Massachusetts, which is a really fucking good state to be in if you have to live off gubmint cheese.

Furthermore, if I felt capable of working, which I have several times in the past, I had to ultimately avoid it, because any income you get is taken out of your check. If that income is earned rather than a gift, only half it is taken out, but that still means I wind up with about $50 extra bucks a fucking month if I were to land a 30 hr/wk minimum wage job, which is literally the only thing available to me regardless of schooling due to not having an employment record for the past decade. Very obviously, this isn't worth it at all.

Between that, the fact that if you're smart enough to be able to save money it also gets taken away from, the fact that having certain things paid for by friends and family might count as income and therefore be taken from me, and the fact that the restrictions on how I'm supposed to use this money are so tight that I am technically never even supposed to get drunk, I'd take UBI without a second thought, even if it were exactly the same amount as I get now. I'd probably take it if it were less, because it'd be so much easier and more worthwhile to supplement that income with the small amount of work I'm able to do.

...

That depends entirely on how the hundred wealthiest families in the world decide to handle the issue. The way they generally behave, between 20-80% of us won't, depending on how successful we are at making war on them.

Figured as much, as I don't believe this shittos about new markets opening up.

To pay for the UBI, most of the public sector, except essential services, would be axed.

You get nothing because you're a single, probably hwhite, male. UBI would be paid per adult, meaning you can't have kids to get more. And shit like food stamps and section 8 are gone, again, to pay for UBI.

I agree with everything else you're writing but you're mostly extrapolating your experience to all people when I'd wager you are very likely in the minority of motivated, young and intelligent welfare recipients.

Well, it was always true in the past, which is why it's such a popular idea. A new technology came along, a particular market niche was wiped out, the gain from the new technology created new opportunities. Yaaay.

General purpose automation won't do that. It can't do that. It doesn't alter the labor market, it eliminates it entirely. The only jobs after robots are cheaper than people will be "sitting at a desk your rich friend bought for you" and "busking, supplemented by occasionally fellating the desksitter."

minimum wage should be a flat percent of a company's annual income, not just a single universal amount.

Until of course they make Robo-Waifus. In which you'll be shipped off to the nearest jail for Jamal and friends.

im pretty sure the employer can afford it. They just afraid theyd earn less themselves.

That is absolute bullshit. The only thing that would be made totally redundant by this would be the Social Security Administration and the relatively tiny sliver of the Departments of Agriculture and Health and Human Services that are dedicated to handing out other kinds of benefits.

Now, granted, the SSA is pretty big.

Fuck 'em. They can take UBI until they find new jobs.

You can't make a robot feel bad about having to suck your dick, though. It's an important value add.

Small businesses actually do usually operate on paper-thin margins. They generally oppose minimum wage increases as an entirely legit self-interest, it's not the same kind of greed that large corporations display.

This is ultimately why our rulers allow small business to continue to exist. They aren't truly satisfied until they're making ALL the money, but in order to keep policies like this from becoming too popular, there need to be some actual human beings who have a reason to oppose them.

Alright, so who's paying for the checks? Please don't say rich people.

in the meantime 1% hires thousands on trash pay and wellfare incentive
can we make not-small buisnesses to raise pay?

The same ones that pay for the shit we already have.

Have fun trying to draft and pass legislation that doesn't define "small business" in such a fucked up way that Wal-Mart qualifies and the used bookstore down the road doesn't.

raise all min. wage it is, then

A thumbs up image

What are you even saying?

You really have no idea how sausage is made, huh?

I know what a small business is. So do you. So does everyone.

So, what is it? How do you define and measure the organizational structure and size that determines the cutoff where you aren't exempt from having to pay a higher minimum wage?

After wasting time on that for a couple hours, you may be able to define "small business" with enough rigor that I'd say it makes sense to have it in a piece of legislation.

Now, try to get that legislation passed. Keep in mind your opposition is multinational corporations owned by billionaires, in particular the retail and fast food industries, which already have exemptions to minimum wage in some areas for no apparent reason.

Good luck.

it could literally be any number becasue the increase in profits would be directly proportional to the increase in wage.

the only reason it wouldn't be set high is that it wouldn't be conducive to increasing the poor / rich divide and creating the artificial scarcity necessary for keeping people in lower states of conciousness

thats why minimum wage should be a percent of the companys earnings, not a flat digit. This would also incentivise employees to do their jobs better.

So keep all the unfunded entitlements and give everyone a check. Sounds reasonable.

see

Wow, you really fucking like robots, huh?

corporate greed or a working society, mutually exclusive choices

Because of marxists like you.

There is. Outlaw minimum wage.

so instead of having no jobs we can have a ton that pay nothing, real big improvement there.

If you are worth nothing, then you deserve to be paid nothing. You boss didn't cum inside your mother nine months before you were born, princess. He isn't your daddy. Move back in with your parents if you want a so called "living" wage.

I should probably say a bit more on just how ludicrous a percentage-based minimum wage is.

It is impossible. Here in America, there would be moral outrage about it from POOR people. This is ultimately because many poor people are also stupid assholes, but it doesn't change the fact there would be.

Keeping wages flat is literally the entire point of capitalism. That is the quintessence of the economic model this nation most favors. Labor is paid a flat amount, while the variable part of the earnings goes to capital, because this is supposedly fair compensation for them ponying up to create the business.

If you mandate that workers get a percentage of the company's earnings, you have literally ended capitalism. Which I think is a fucking amazing idea. However, there's a significant number of literal peasants in the US who would shoot you for even seriously suggesting it.

If I'm paid nothing I'm not working, period. If you want to make billions off of my back, shell out to keep society's wheels greased.

are you actually struggling to follow the argument are you a troll?

or another way it could be implemented

Subsidizing wages is probably the dumbest idea I've ever seen. It would fail to encourage automation, actively delay technological progress and productivity, and still fuck with the market.

Your back isn't worth billions. Listening to you whine makes me think you are worth negative value. You are a parasite.

...

He has just demonstrated that you working is not necessary to him. Your tactics are wholly ineffectual.

What you are witnessing here is the most honest expression of the ruling class mindset. If your job, however difficult it is, however dedicated to it you are, isn't "worth" enough to eat, they believe you literally do not deserve to eat. Your misfortune is your fault. You made the mistake of not being born into a family that can get you a decent university education. For that, you literally deserve to die, and asking for his table scraps only compounds your sin.

Rest easy, though. This is temporary. When enough of us become unemployable that we stop accepting blame for our poverty, we will kill them. They can't stop us from doing so. We are too many.

Possible he is, but rentiers are also literal parasites.

eg

Better question to all of the bootlickers ITT

If raising the minimum wage is so terrible.

HOW COME EXECUTIVE WAGES CONTINUE TO INCREASE ALMOST EXPONENTIALLY?

Everyone is real quick to shit on the plebs for wanting more table scraps but do you sodomites ever stop to ask yourself why management and above level wages continue to increase. Those aren't the people doing the real work and yet we can somehow justify paying them more.

Once again you stupid shits get played by people using the oldest fucking magicians trick in the book. Keep the audience distracted by bullshit in one hand while the other hand preforms the trick.

Value is relative, so I can say the same about you.

I can't wait, these people need to burn.

Whatever you say, Che Guevera.

removing minimum wage laws will drop millions of people instantly on the welfare dolls as they suddenly fall far below the poverty line. It will delay automation by about ten years. Good job you fucking jew

The desire for more money is not the problem, the regulation is the problem. Everyone is in favour of increasing productivity, because nobody wants anyone to be poor.

Because their productivity is increasing.
If you increase price without increasing productivity, you will get unemployment as a predictable consequence.

There are millions of us and a few thousand of you. The military is recruited from our numbers, not yours.

You're fucked. We will kill you.

The military is not made of fat socialist LARPers, dumbass

You'd be surprised.

Regardless of that, you know that I'm talking about class. The military is made of poor people. Their friends and families are poor people. If you continue to steal from them, they're not going to let it slide forever.

I am American. There are millions of us and only hundreds of you Antifa communist scumbags. This isn't Europe, you sodomite. In America, commies like you get put down.

Your idiocy is so amazing, so astounding that I'm left speechless. I have never seen an opinion so utterly devoid of rationality. The flat earthers would look up to you.

just… wow

Are you female? Because you talk like a bitch.

Just because you are poor doesn't mean you want to kill rich people.
It doesn't correlate with being poor so much as being a dumb whiny sodomite.
Only dumb whiny sodomites unironically think 'the rich' are stealing from them.
The rest would see killing a rich person as unjustified murder (which it is) and completely counterproductive (which history suggests to be true)

Who told you that shit? Bill Maher? I can tell you were never in the military.

I was. The military is made up of all classes. And we all hate commies like you. You spit on us. We will never be on your side in any civil war. Just give us a reason and we will exterminate all of you.

have you seen the income distribution in this country? Have you been around for the past 30 year to see prices rise while wages stagnate? Jobs that would have funded the livelihood of potential paying customers are being shipped overseas, yet we're still expected to shell out 30,000 for a college degree and even more for a house and a car on top of being treated like the primary demographic of every shitty company that hires exclusively in china and Indonesia. It used to be that you could get a college education at someplace like Purdue with what you earn with a part time summer job.

Your opinion is just as retarded as communism. The only way "the american dream" type of freedom loving majority exists is a healthy middle class, which is rapidly disappearing.

Yet.

Things aren't bad enough. A significant number of people still have a livelihood. Even those who can't really afford their living costs are willing to struggle through and hope for a better day, because at least they have the struggle.

The way you fuckers treat us, that is going to change very quickly once robots can replace us all. We will not have the struggle. We will have nothing, because you will give us nothing.

At that point, we will take what we need from you, whether you like it or not.

When that happens the economy will crash and the fuckers will walk away with our country's currency.

You're confusing way too many issues, none of which you have pinned down to a cause.
Not only that, but none of this shows how 'rich people' are stealing from anyone.

Both of these are lies

Go ramble your wisdoms to someone else

Which, under those circumstances, would be completely worthless. So no, I don't think they will do that.

The usd is still the world reserve currency, as long as it stay that it will retain its value.

(￣人￣) Hello. I am "Mr. Likes To Sage Threads". I do believe this thread is in need of Sage, so I would like to sage it. That is why my name is "Mr Likes To Sage Threads".

Hello Mr. Likes To Sage Threads, how was your day today?

Good, good. How is yours going? Fine, I hope.

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-28/putin-s-decade-old-dream-realized-as-russia-to-price-its-own-oil

Anyone still wondering why the US war hawks are screeching?

For someone who likes to sage, you sure suck at it.

go ramble your lolbergian propaganda to sherrod

only one of those has a (You) next to it :^)

Rich people are stealing because that's what capitalism is: a corruption of the free market by laying on top of it the idea that the initial infusion of capital entitles the capitalist to skim off the top of labor's production forever and ever, amen. Under this system, as the business grows, new workers who never agreed to anything of the sort are cheated out of the fair value of their labor, while the capitalist, who need never contribute anything to the business ever again, keeps getting paid. For Reasons.

Self-made men are arguably worse than people who inherit their wealth. You do not get to the top of this horrible mess without being a ruthless, mercenary piece of shit.

Its going alright, bought myself some slav juice at the shop not too long ago.

Oh shit. Its really gonna happen, huh.

;_;

That's nice to hear.

Because it's his capital.
You must be some kind of dummy.

How dare they create jobs, create products, and provide for their families
It would be better if instead of creating anything, they just spent their money on booze and weed xD

pick one and only one

zpub.com/notes/idle.html

You must be some kind of asshole.

We are not talking about the same people. The vast majority of entrepreneurs spend their whole lives walking a very fine line between being comfortably middle-class and having less money than me, the guy on fucking disability. This is because THEY are busy creating things.

Genuinely rich people do not do that. The only way to get on top is to climb over other people.

Unlikely given the minimum wage and other regulations

mfw

I rather we work towards avoiding conflict, but unless we come up with a way to fix capitalism it'll eventually come to that. I guess that is why so many rich people have bunkers.

It continues to be mutually beneficial.
You could fire them all from your factory if you wanted.
I suppose that would also be unfair

Consumers create jobs.

Okay let's just get rid of all the machines then

I'd love that, but if you hadn't noticed, we aren't the ones making decisions. We will make war on the rich one day because that is, judging from the decisions they tend to make, exactly what they want. They think they can win. They believe that they pay the military well enough that they will take their side against the poor, and they further believe that said military can be effective against us, despite our history with counterinsurgency very clearly proving otherwise.

Many of us will die. In fact, most of us might die. But there will still be whole hell of alot more of us than them at the end. We will kill them.

Since you don't pay me, your opinion is as worthless as you are. See how that works? Isn't capitalism great?

Really good investments? Anyways I still agree with you though.

Fat bitches like pic related could easily get laid if they stopped their SJW bullshit and realized what little value they have.

And that's implying you can get a job after going to college.

Found the dummy who blames 'capitalism' for everything
Sad!

They'd be redundant without customers anyway.

It is also my worthless opinion that you should off yourself sodomite.

No they wouldn't.

test post, please ignore

i don't think you fully grasp the concept of what a minimum wage is

typically they are compulsory rates of pay

one does not simply cut pay below this

there is also a third option

there is obvious reason why a business wouldn't want to increase their wages if they weren't obligated to, because it would diminish their profits, but when a minimum wage would increase their profits, there is no reason why a businesses wouldn't lobby for it.

it appears then that the existence of opposition to the increasing of minimum wage is a contrivance to keep people as wage slaves

actually. it's the benefits. thank FDR and demojews for starting that stupid trend.
great. raising a generation of self entitled children to rely on the government than themselves. sounds like a strong, powerful society.
fuck off peasants. go back to shelving/flipping 50 cent burgers while being stupid fucks that keep yourself in poverty in the first place. >muh weed >muh dik
also "welfare" was meant to help and assist single mothers to stop them from going out and whoring themselves out to raise money to survive.

Get a load of this sodomite. He claims the billionaires are parasites when his only argument to why he should have the money is >that's unfair!!! >gibsmedat
literal nigger right here.

...

...

>>>/test/

Let's get rid of employers who can't run their business properly, let's get the minimum wage.

It's no big deal. The only employers we'll lose are in this thread, listening to emo music as we speak.

Guess the rich are going to up their consumption to cover for the working and middle class.

I always figure, they'll go to their bunkers, and probably kill each other once inside. All those competing personalities will surely screw them over.

I meant cutting your pay as in letting you go, or letting 4 of the 5 others go. Sorry I wasn't clear.

It was?

You won't get rid of employers who can't run their businesses properly, you'll get rid of employers who have large numbers of low skilled workers

In the last 25 years, I can think of no bigger mistake than NATFA.

You know if all the billionaires and millionaires killed themselves, the financial world would shake? How about you? What's your worth? Would anything happen if you just stuck a 1 dollar knife in your throat? The cost of moving your bloated corpse would be worth more than what you could have ever produced.
Strange how people making absolute 0$ and even people in debt hundreds of thousands of dollars still are able to live. It's like. You are the only one greedy here.

I may not be able to fight, but when everyone starts fighting I will tend to the wounded, I will cook meals to feed those who defend the poor, and if I can, I'll do any other small jobs/repairs than I can.

i have clearly outlined how raising the minimum would increase profits without the need for fireing workers

all you are offering is contradiction and are even struggling to do that

At the turn of the 20th century in the United States at least. The site of mothers having to go extra lengths to even survive and provide for their children was demeaning public spirit. Mothers would rent out their place to "boarders", whore themselves out, clean clothes, etc (being useful). Then a lot of people got on the bandwagon because of morality reasons and we are now in the situation where everyone is entitled to >gibsmedat.
How did the world survive pre-welfare?

how's 9th grade kiddo?

I can't fight. I can't really do anything. I'm a nervous wreck and a fatfuck.

I'll fight anyway. You have no idea how desperately I want a US Senator's blood on my hands someday. If the shit truly hits the fan in my lifetime, I will go out there and get myself killed almost immediately just for the chance that I might take one of those rich fucks down with me.

And this right here proves you don't care about anything except money and that you are truly a greedy bastard. KYS.

Some I wonder if low prices and productive efficiency are bad things

Wow

With whose money? The business's money.
Aggregate demand isn't increased by moving money around you goose

Poorly.

Gibsmedat, you fucking garbage. I don't believe I'm entitled to it, I believe EVERYONE is. Anyone who stands in the way of that deserves to have their shit stole.

I'm not in the US, but Canada. If you guys start cleaning house all over North America, you are all welcome to crash at my place if, while in battle, you need somewhere to rest. I will do what I can to help you all the be successful.

hows being a low tier troll working out for you?

So not only are you entitled to other people's money, but people who want to defend what they've worked to produce deserve to have it stolen from them.
What should happen to someone who wants to defend what he's worked to produce? How far would you go? Would you beat him up with your nerd rage?

Actually you would send someone else to do it I bet

*how's

wait so are you implying that a businesses wages are 100% or more of its costs?

how does that even work?

you mean what everybody else slaved away to make work but aren't even worth being paid for? Yeah, fuck em.

This is such a great post that clearly explains the issue with robots.

It's not your fucking money! Capital doesn't work to produce anything. You don't break a sweat signing a check. Fuck off.

Capital is absolutely vital to the development of business. It is NOT, however, entitled to a permanent, unlimited cut of the proceeds of that business. It has to end at some point, because their contribution has.

That money belongs to the workers.

You Bernie supporters should hide your faces in embarrassment. Hillary Clinton stole the nomination from him in front of everybody, but he didn't fight back. Instead he took her blood money and endorsed her. That's what you get for supporting a marxist cuck.

not sure if your a generally upset grammar guy or just a low tier troll

if your a troll, you are even lower tier then the back to reddit guy

And the crazy thing is I think robots are AWESOME. If we had robots AND universal basic income, it'd be a real utopia, like fucking Star Trek without the space part.

The problem is we're not going to have UBI without going to war for it first.

Never a more prosperous time than that of the robber baron. Those monopolists sure are a billion times more hard working than anyone.

Most rich people deserve the hate they get. There is no reason to be greedy. My Grandfather was a very rich man and ran a very successful business employing many people.

If you didn't have a ride to work, he paid a guy to pick those people up who couldn't get to work. He'd work around your scheduled, he would find anything he could for his employees. A true man takes care of people, and he did. If you don't run your business like this, you deserve the hate that you get.

I just wish he had not intentionally tanked the business to spite the bitch known as my Grandmother.

What would you do with all that time though? I've been unemployed for some time now, and I'm bored a fucking hell.

You hippies can't even run communes anymore. Yet you still feel that you can lecture businessmen on how to succeed.

"marxist cuck"

Please. He's not a real marxist or he wouldn't be in our federal government. He is and always was a fucking fake, and I never believed in him.

But then I'm not even a socialist, despite what I've been arguing in this thread. I'm an anarchist. To me, the best case scenario when the labor war happens is that the nation is completely destabilized and replaced with a network of independent city-states.

I just think that if we are going to HAVE a state, it needs to actually benefit the people somehow.

This is why you need one person to be the manager and to settle conflicts, but fuck those they don't contribute anything!

Their contribution hasn't ended since the capital is still in use.
The capitalist could withdraw or sell his capital at any time.
That's what he would do if his share was going to be ended.
If you're renting his capital, you should pay him.
Moran

Realistically? Same shit I do now, possibly with weed every now and then if I can afford it.

I've got serious fucking problems, I'd need alot more money than I get from disability to solve them. UBI probably won't do that for me.

NIGGA FUCK U
u r not managing that on the "entry lvljob for students, high-schoolers and part-timers"
u do that in school and its not a skill, its a fuckin given when u r a social species, like human. Teach teamwork to a cat.
how to be a bitch, cuz u need to "learn" how to suck all the dicks.
also done in school, or at least its the idea. And again, its not sth u need to be made aware and tought, if u r a meritocrat.
And most important - its illegal to hire minors, students need jobs, cuz they leave the city they grew in, instead of sitting on their ass draining parents, cuz thats their job - to provide for the child.

Theres still a question of how come an average family couldve afforded an entire, big family house 40 years ago, but now they live in 3 rooms with 4 ppl?

As i mentioned before - some1 needs to cough up and large corporations have the money. Whats gonna happen to small buisnesses? Ppl from there will work in the corporations to establish a capital large enough to invest in giving jobs

So since there's a state, it should control our economic policy, tax the people, get us into debt, and destroy families with its wrong-headed welfare

Or it should do as little as possible

Sorry to here that user. I hope you can get enough so that you're okay. I've done work at poor houses and done collections for the poor, I know the shit that some of them go through. Granted some shouldn't be there, but the real people that should have my sympathies.

That's not what I feel at all. I do not care about whether this would make you more successful. You're successful enough, fuck you. On a basic moral level, capital is not permanently entitled to skimming off labor. We need capital to create businesses, and profit has certainly proven to be an effective incentive, but you take too fucking much compared to what you put in. You need to give it the fuck back, and I don't care if it means you can't get a fifth car. You have a problem with that, you can get pushed into the ocean.

Are you sure? I'm not.
Sounds convenient for someone who wanted that all along

America already has too many worthless parasites feeding from the government trough. The debt is $19 trillion because of welfare. We can't even afford the parasites we already have. There is no way America can afford your super welfare.

I'm a Trekkie, but even as a child I knew that utopia was bullshit. Nog was right.

Why should people be doing these pointless jobs at all if a robot can do the same for free?

It's not even about minimum wage, it's about technological progress.

u know supply and demand, right? All u need to do is:
every1 stops working now, untill every1 earns more, but equal globally on the "entry job". Money will be found, when u have no1 to work on the entire earth.
Also, amazing job disregaarding the part about being able to afford a house in a year, while now u cant afford a flat. What changed?

Robots aren't free. Nothing is ever "free".

The debt is $19 trillion because of our defense budget and trade deficits you stupid hack. Social programs are spit in the ocean.

If UBI existed (it won't), there would be lots of opportunity for micro businesses because of all the extra spending power.

oh, yeah, that reminds me: what r we gonna do, when we robotize most of the thing? Building robots, maintenance robots, maintenance maintenance robots and maintenance maintenance maintenance robots? How will humans earn money to live?

Is that shit what public schools teach these days?

That has nothing to do with government debt.

It's still much cheaper. I don't see your point.

Oh yeah, definitely. Like, I could do some fucking odd jobs now. I don't because if the SSA finds out about that income, I get fucked out of part of my check, and I lose long-term stability in exchange for being able to afford some gas the last week of the month. Fuck all that.

With UBI, even a lazy fatfuck like me would be more productive, because my labor wouldn't be actively disincentivized. This is what deficit hawks like don't fucking get. UBI doesn't work like other welfare programs. Because everyone just GETS it automatically, nobody's playing any destructive, idiotic games to stay on it.

Explain how 'spending power' is increased by the government taxing everyone then giving the money back out to the same people

Debt would be higher without the trade deficit. Trading partners are a major purchaser of government debt.
They also invest a lot in the private sector
I don't see how it's the trade deficit's fault the government spends too much

...

Hello sir! We have 2 positions available at our company! An entry-level office job that requires only a formal interview and you will be trained on-site. Or we have a factory position available! It requires no interview or formal training! You can get started today!

Hello, we have only 1 available position, an office job. We have no more factory positions because we outsourced all those to China. And even if we did still have factory jobs available you'd need extensive formal training and a lengthy interview process, thanks government regulations! Now if you want to we can schedule a job interview now for say, next week at 4:00 PM? You'll need to give us your social security number, full address and phone number, and you'll need a minimum of a high-school education. No GEDs please! Thank you and have a nice day!

Communist pieces of shit will blame capitalism on this for some reason
Technocratism is cringeworthy as shit. The same level of sodomitery as trans-humanist sodomites

Social Security and Unemployment are both ultimately insurance schemes. To the extent they belong on that chart at all, it's only because the labor market is so fucked to death by capitalist excess that few people can put in more than they take out.

Catamite
Sodomites work hard for their money, catamites get fucked and whine.

There's a word-filter you nigger

There are plenty of American scientists, many of them religious. They're just in the private sector doing useful work

Yeah if only we were more like those more socialist countries who don't have anyone on welfare taking out more than they put in
See Mexico, South Africa, Brazil, Spain

amount of religious ppl in science is lower than in general population, so science is rooting out superstition.
In private sectors, not doing government work. Like when Musk broke another rocket the way NASA fixed already. Government needs to trailblaze and we need more trailblazing before private sectors

The paying for it only relies on taxation if needed (after axing all social programs, that is) and it's usually a tax on high frequency trading and/or a flat tax.

People will have more because unemployment/welfare restrictions are removed as they don't exist anymore, enabling them to work or sell freely.

Or pretty much the entirety of Northern Europe. The Commonwealth nations also show a pretty successful model, though significantly less so.

The success or failure of socializing things is basically down to the nation's general place in the economy. You listed some places that were already dirt fucking poor. It didn't work out for them! Weird! The United States, despite throwing all its exports besides agriculture down a well, remains an world leading economic powerhouse due to the morally sickening but arguably necessary business that is the petrodollar. We can handle socialization just fine.

I support raising the minimum wage, but that's retarded.

Even worse. Should killing anarchists be illegal? Why should it when you don't even believe in laws.

I think I debated against you before. Are you "Zalmoxis"?

bypass it faggot

So the presence of people who take more than they put in those countries I mentioned ISN'T due to capitalist excess?
You didn't mention that here

Anarchy isn't "fuck it, do whatever." I want to end hegemony, not law. With modern communication technology, polities ranging in size from a half-dozen families to any one of the Five Boroughs of New York can easily self-manage without the need to pay tribute for the protection of some jagoff thousands of miles away, and without any degradation in quality of life compared to our current standard. If you don't like the laws or culture in your city, you could just fucking move, and it'd actually be different when you do, because nothing is being forced on people from above.

Well, strictly speaking it IS. It's just not necessarily their own. High finance in the US, Northern Europe, and to a lesser extent the Commonwealth nations, fucks the rest of the planet up pretty fucking hard. They're not just my problem.

Preventing me from killing you is hegemony

no it fucking isn't

you don't even know what the word means

get out

Non-existent.
Fuck liberals.

That's exactly what it is.

You have no idea what you want. Not a clue.

WTF? You want mafia families to run New York?

Since you didn't answer my question, I will assume that yes, you are Zalmoxis. I still have a picture of your city state running away from Putin.

Fascists are the only true anarchists.

You offer no justification for this claim. This isn't even a meaningful response to what I said. Your post is Not Even Wrong. Go away.

You didn't fucking read that at all, jesus fucking christ. You apparently just dropped the part of the sentence that gave it any meaning whatsoever.

I have no idea who Zalmoxis is.

I think we should be under a different legal system though
Why are you oppressing me

If you don't like the laws where you live, and you don't feel you are empowered to change them, just move somewhere else.

Oh wait! It doesn't fucking matter if you do, because all the really important shit is the same nationwide! States are only allowed to pick a few petty social issues to use as political talking points. Damn. Too bad. If only we didn't live under federal hegemony.

I've seen several pics of this poster child for abortion around the net over the years. Do we know who this thing is?

I got a better idea, burn the fucking existing system down and make a new one that suits us better. One that follows the truth.

But by what right do you assert the legal system in the place where you live that stops an outsider coming in and killing you or whatever?

"Rights" don't exist.

Sounds good to me. The truth is we don't need a system. Your town can take care of itself. What we think of as "states" should just be trade agreements. What we think of as the "nation" should just be a defensive compact. There is no good reason for legislative power to rise any higher than a city.

You want your town to be a racist shithole? Go nuts. People will choose to live there, or they will choose to live in San Francisco, and neither of you has any reason to impose laws on the other.

Your entire post is nonsensical. As is your ideology. You are an "anarchist" that supports city government. You are a living oxymoron. You come out of a Dave Chappelle skit.

It sounds like you want city government to be run by Facebook and Twitter. Shit, that's even worse than the mafia.

Holla Forums's city state homo.

At least "homo" isn't censored.

You act as if you cant create your own currency. I hear a certain group in europe did it in the 1930's and it turned out pretty well in their favor.

The fact that I choose to live there. If there is no hegemony, if the system of law is allowed to be meaningfully different from one place to the next, then that choice is meaningful. The concept of a social contract actually exists in this context, as opposed to our current system where it's basically a clickwrap EULA that you "accept" as soon as you leave your mother's vagina.

The fed needs to be destroyed, the states need to be repossessed and their needs to be an ethnically homogeneous state (after the common filth is purged). Only then shall we have a good country.

So you're claiming a monopoly of law in the place you live?
And since the person has done something that breaches your laws, you get to stop him killing you using violence?

...

No, you fucking goat penis. You're confusing anarchy as a philosophy with teenage nihilism, and it's rapidly becoming apparent to me that you're doing so intentionally. Law is not oppression. It is the system of decisions that a community agrees upon. Rather, it is supposed to be. The trouble is that because of these empires we call the modern state, your satisfaction with the system of law is not relevant to its continued operation or your submission to it. If our society were just, somebody who didn't like our laws could just leave. They could go make their own town, with blackjack and hookers. In other word, there would actually be a way to opt out of the social contract with the polity you find yourself in. As of now, you can't, because it's all under the same fucking flag. Anarchy, properly formulated, wants to end that, not courtrooms.

...

Government generally doesn't trailblaze. It tends to throw money into sectors where breakthroughs have already happened
It also politicises science in quite an annoying way- look at climate change

Are you fucking brain dead? How would I claim a monopoly on law just by living somewhere? I'd have to actually be the autocrat managing the place for that, and I wouldn't choose to live in an autocracy anyway. The fact that the law where I do choose to live protects me doesn't confer a "monopoly" over anything. That's just what law is and does. I am part of a civil body politic, and if I came to an insoluble conflict with them, the only redress I'd have is to fucking move somewhere else.

The best part? The only real way to fight it, is with Fascism.

You are so full of shit. Look up "anarchy" in the dictionary. You do not get to rewrite the definition of words, princess. Either you believe in government or you do not. You do, therefore you are not a fucking anarchist. The end.

But you're claiming your laws are the correct ones, not his laws. At least on your turf

Whether or not another group of people also agreed to your laws doesn't seem to matter

Test
Also nice how you shrunk the bars in the Friedman side even though they seem to be about as big (there's even more pozz in the chart too I'll bet)

The true minimum wage is always zero. No one has to hire you. I'm glad so many people actually know this. Because when I was a kid, NO ONE did outside of college.

The reason economists debate the minimum wage is because it is a tool to cause inflation in about 18 months after introduction.

The debate isn't whether it raises real or prevailing wages measured in constant dollars ceteris paribus. Thr debate is if inflation would be. a good idea at the time to devalue debt held by the government while simultaneously raising taxes, and lowering welfare eligibility in terms of real dollars.

>absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal

Do we need to talk about just how far away from democracy this country was at its very creation, or can we accept that political systems of thought based on the practical application of an ideal are a thing and move the fuck on?

🍇 Member when being a wage slave could get you a nice house and nice car in the first few years of working it all without getting into debt?

🍇 Member when Democrats didn't subsidize immigrants with social security, enabling them to stay and leech money from the system, raising prices for every honest working man, instead of forcing them to be fit enough to survive or go back where they came from?

Also we will not train you. You must have 1-2 years experience at another job doing the exact same kind of work.

Ok, equality feminist.

absolutely fucking dunked, 10/10

No. Is that suppose to be an excuse? It isn't. You just admitted that your ideal is bullshit and will never happen. Pathetic. What fucking good are you?

If they have robots, they don't need you, they won't pay you because they'll have no reason to. I don't know what you referring to, the original post was about an user who said robots would mean you'd work one day and get the same pay if you worked five.

immigrants can't draw those benefits

in particular, illegal immigrants can't draw ANY, it would get them caught

That's what ideals are. What the fuck is this shit?

you're ant idiot I hope who you're trolling stops responding.

in reponse to your image

it implies that you have to be completely off grid in order to want to change society

it would be arrogant for anyone to think they could change society without being a part of it

to survive in a capitalist society and to avoid being completely subversive you would have to buy into capitalism to some extent

That is why you fail. You follow an ideal no matter how fucking retarded and impossible it is. No wonder you're an "anarchist".

You are wrong. They use their US born children to get the benefits.

Or you could buy made my socialists living in America
If socialism worked

Buy goods made by

That would then be their children getting the benefits. The money you get for your kid isn't enough to do anything but provide for the fucking kid. Not actually enough for that, either.

PS: Those kids aren't immigrants. They're citizens. Natural born fucking citizens. That anchor baby can be president. Get fucked.

...

You mean like deportation? Which makes it a great deal more difficult to come back?

lmao. kys cuckchan leftcuck larper.

which conveniently includes you. you see nigger, the organism that is better off survives, the one that cannot, dies. You will die.

How about you mcfuck yourself?

Don't women who have babies in the US become citizens?
Isn't that the point?

t. yuropin

What's it like being in a coma for eight years? Obama rewards illegals. Fucking illegals are now above the law and have more rights than American citizens. They can beat us up, but if we defend ourselves we go to jail.

49 percent of legal immigrants use welfare and other social services. Direct cash, food stamps, housing. This costs tax payers lots of money. We used to not subsidize immigrants, and when they couldn't make it they went home. Now we do, and it means instead of only making sure the US gets great people, we take and keep everyone while making the country worse off those existing citizens.

Illegal immigrants will lie and cheat. They will have many children, and abuse, neglect the children for the financial gains. I've seen it happen again and again.

No, they spend the money on themselves, get free housing, free donations from schools, free food at schools, free foodstamps. Everything "free" but tax payers pay for it. It's a fucked up system. We incentivize criminals and the worst kind of people because we're too cucked to never allow people to fail or suffer, which will lead to our own ruin more and more as the system continues until everything falls over after it runs out of money.

Vid related, immigrants are not the only ones who abuse our good will systems to our ruin.

They do not. They gain permanent residency. They can pursue naturalization if they want, but it's not automatic or even easier. As long as they are not naturalized, there's alot of benefits they don't get.

Anchor babies explained:
The child becomes a citizen (Not technically supposed to, but lefties made it the norm) As such the mother can petition a judge saying the kid needs her and will be betted in the US. Over 80% of the time judge grants her green card and legal status. After 7 years she can apply for citizenship.

$0

this guy actually believes that there is a meaningful amount of direct cash needs-based assistance in this country

point at him and laugh

Pretty much all those programs were dumped in the ocean in favor of things with more hoops to jump through decades ago. Welfare queens are not fucking real. I should know, because I have lived with various types of government assistance all my life.

100% wrong. It has historically been the case that where you are born is where you have citizenship. Where this wasn't the law of the land, it caused serious diplomatic problems due to tourists and shit having babies inconveniently that were made stateless because they weren't born in the country they should've been in. "Lefties" didn't fix this, treaties older than what you think of as "the left" did.

Welfare queens are real.

My mother works 10 hours a week and refuses to take on more hours so she gets more gib me dats.

If welfare queens aren't real why not allow us to end these programs entirely?

Oh thank God, what a nightmare that was.

Food stamps are still real aren't they? I read it in an economics book
I know they did away with some of the direct stuff and give grants to states now, so it will be more varied. Maybe it depends on the state

Why the fuck would you give citizenship to a tourist baby?

Other countries use Jus Sanguinis.

thanks, tax payers for the autismbux :3

p.s. my parents are now 50+ and both were legalized thanks to Reagan.

If she works at all, she's not a fucking welfare queen. Working more would result in her having less money. This is because the programs are broken, and that's nothing I'd ever argue against, but the proportion of people who actively abuse/scam them is fucking paper thin. People on these programs are locked into unhealthy behaviors by the ridiculous controls we've placed on who does and doesn't qualify.

I do believe we should get rid of these programs. They should be replaced with UBI. Then those people would get the help they need, but they wouldn't need to fuck around and waste peoples' time to get it. It would ultimately be cheaper.

Well, at least you have good taste in Yurus.

You have to go back, leftypol.

If you know anything about history, you would know that the birthright citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment was specifically intended to clear up confusion about newly freed slaves after the civil war. It was not intended to allow millions of illegals and tourists to travel here and circumvent the legal immigration process by shitting out kids.

To the best of my knowledge, there is basically nowhere that subsidized rent gets as low as $50. In fact, if you're getting the max from SSI, it couldn't, because it's based on a percentage of your income, and that percentage puts it at a bit over $200.

I pay that much in rent, leaving me a total of about $600 a month to live off. After all my other necessities, including a student loan, that usually leaves me in the hole by the end of the third week. I'm not buying any fucking gundams on this shit. I was very fortunate to have been able to afford a half-decent gaming rig with my initial lump sum, and to have friends who helped me replace it when it shat the bed. Every few months, I manage to scrabble together enough savings to buy a board game.

My life is a depressing fucking mess, and nobody is meaningfully "incentivized" to take advantage of these programs by their existence. This is hell, and I desperately wish I could work enough for it to be financially worth it.

I think we agree on the concept of Moral hazard.

Our subsidizing of bad decisions has created people who make more bad decisions.

My decision not to work as much as I can, and by extension that poster's mothers', isn't a bad one. It's the only logical course of action. I would lose financial stability if I were productive without being productive enough for a job paying at least $25k or so a year.

...

FUCKING WHO? Not executives or management. Point still stands. If the economy is in such a dire situation (as certain folks would have us believe) it makes no sense that base pay stagnates while executive pay rises.

Nice unrelated statement that doesn't address the central question. When productivity increases it means more of the good/service is available hence we would expect LOWER prices. But oh what's that? Prices are still rising because of inflation and artificial scarcity as a result of demand decreasing because average people can't afford things anymore. Well gee wilikers batman it's almost as if being a greedy fuck and paying your workers next to nothing means they can't buy shit which decreases the overall fluidity of currency in the market.

Come on now motherfuckers, this shit was figured out decades ago by Ford.

Did Carly Fiorina make "really good investments" when she added 2 BILLION DOLLARS of debt to HP, laid off 30,000 people, and cut their stock value in half? Keeping in mind that this same cunt made $100 million off the company and had a $21 million severance package?

You ever burn down half your boss' store and get paid 1/5 of your salary for your time and the company for your trouble?

*at the company

Unless the person is a convicted felon, there's no way they're getting deported under our current regime. And even then, calling it a "great deal" more difficult to come back is absurd. There are people committing crimes that have been deported repeatedly and just came back again.

Where do you live that rent is so high?

Enjoy your unemployment kid

Companies are bigger and more highly capitalised, and CEOs in bigger companies are more productive

That's not even an economics term

Also your graph is retarded

friendly(?) reminder that
> Trade Schools and/or Associate Degrees are the new bare minimum for having a 'functional living', but you better invest ASAP with any spare money unless you want to get fucked HARD

If companies are making less profit they are also more likely to reduce investment or cease production or move overseas

...

Another issue we haven't touched on yet is immigrants who come into Western countries who take the money they earn and send it back to their 3rd world shitting streets. This is a problem where I live.

ADF is his name.

There hope is that you'll be forever dependent on the government.

I wasn't actually serious about really good investments. I figure one or two people that might be the reason, but not the majority.

Didn't know that about Fiorina, holy shit she's a bitch.

I thought it was pro-Trump

it's just a two-lane choice of which vicious cycle the people want
it's all fucking horrible

m8 it's a fucking Horsey comic, there isn't much to think about other than "the other side is literally hitler"