The "Community" In Socialism

Serious discussion time on a very important aspect of socialism.

For a long time I've said socialism is communism with sprinkles.

Communism = the workers own the means of production

Socialism = the community owns the means of production

I run into trouble here because I have to break arguments down to understand them. I need objective definitions for "the workers" and "means of production".

Does "means of production" mean machines/facilities/workers themselves? The term has no specific material representation. It's a bottomless hole because everything is a means of production.

MOP = means of production

For example, a factory is a MOP. The steel beams and sheet-metal and concrete are a MOP for the factory. The iron ore and mined rock are a MOP for the steel and concrete. The excavators and mine are a MOP for ore and minerals. A factory is the MOP for an excavator.

It goes on forever.

So I've established "means of production" means everything.

That clears that up. So now I have to establish who the workers and community are.

In socialism, the community as far as I know means everyone.

So that brings the definition down to a much smaller package: Everyone owns everything.

Can any socialists lurking on this board help me understand what "community" means?

I would have taken this question to Holla Forums but I got banned before because I has a similar question.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Democratic_Republic
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

Sure they have. The free market capitalist state was somalia, and they went to the SocDem states in Europe.

Since that pic is so fucking retarded, I'm saging and leaving the thread now

In commjnism the single-party government owns, control and dictates the means of production and the population. The idea that workers own anything is pure bullshit to try and make stupid people support the doctrine, when it's apllied it always turns into totalitarian oligarchic despotism because of the tendencies of psychopaths to seek ever growing power. In the case of socialism, everybody gets taxed so much that eventually the economy halts and degrades because there is little incentive to excel since leeches get a good part of your work. It eventually leads to communism because the government is the one who ends up with most of the money, by an ever increasing margin.

There will always be some jew to exploit such systems and run the government while destroying everybody else, hence why such system can never be trusted and should never be applied in a respectful society that has prosperity of its people and scentific and technological advencement as its goal.

Communism/socialism is an utopia that idealists fail to grasp its real consequences once applied in the real wirld. Instead they stupudly dismiss it as "not real communism", ignoring the fact that it's an ideology usually brutally achieved by power-hungry madmen who have no respect for anybody and who uses that structure to control everybody.

Whether it's communism or socialism, whether you're talking about communities or societies, it's always some self-contradictory groupthink.

Try again retard, failed state != free market

Yeah, now that you say it, nigger pirates stealing from people, widespread famine and disease, and a lack of basic education sure sound like a capitalistic free market society.

Except it doesn't at all and you should kill yourself.

"Means of production" are all the non-human capital used to produce goods, which would include natural resources.

Ostensibly one could be a socialist that believes the collectivization of the means of production should happen based on jurisdiction and then the use of this Capital would be decided democratically by locals, but virtually no socialists anywhere aren't Marxist-inspired so this never happens in practice.

The ideology is antiquated, as it doesn't account for places like the USA in the Current Year where like 90% of economic activity is done without Capital at all, relying strictly on financial assets. So collectivizing the MoP doesn't actually 'liberate' the workers who are mostly servant industry laborers now that don't produce any goods at all.

The idea of collective ownership of the MoP also clearly hearkens back to a 19th century Europe with a less liquid labor pool, meaning you can have Socialism under local governments. The idea of collectivizing the MoP with a totally liquid labor force was obviously never thought about and the ideology was never really updated on how fucked everything would be with 50% of the public that is deciding on how to allocate local Capital moving every 2 years, so that they'd never have any stake in how that Capital is used anyway obviating the whole point of workers having an equal stake and share in the productive activities of society.

So originally I think the idea of a "community" was meant to mean a traditional community of a city or village organized into a pretty standard 19th century municipal government. But to accommodate for the modern world rather than adapting to the 20th and 21st century reality that communities are far less sedentary than they used to be the idea of the "community" does essentially just become global. So everyone collectively decides on how to use everyone's resources. So China and India decide how the rest of their world uses their manufacturing resources and local workers toil under foreign oppression which is liberating somehow.

It's become a religion so having a bunch of mutually exclusive ideas isn't precluded. You can acquire all of the thought-terminating cliches necessary to avoid ever having to reassess these ideas, turning them into a dogma, which allows them to acquire all manner of inconsistent baggage.


You'd be quibbling if you said that failed states don't equate to having a free market. If the state can't regulate the market then it is free. To add in the caveat that the whole of society has to be ideologically committed to Anarcho-Capitalism for free market capitalism to exist in the first place just reveals this ideology to be just another branch of bolshy nonsense. By the same token it's not "True" Communism because there were simply an insufficient number of Communists in whatever Communist society that has failed in the past to make it work. What do you suggest isn't impeding the market in Somalia? Kulaks? Capitalist wreckers?

If a market is free from the government it is a free market.

I'm not actually a socialist, but let's give some reasoning here a shot.

I would suggest "the community" means "everyone", or at least, "everyone in the group", the "group" being whatever context you're discussing, be it a neighborhood, state or nationstate.

IOW: Everyone effectively owns everything, in that the governing body - acting as a representative of the people - effectively owns everything and governing priority is aimed at effectively distributing the products of the group's efforts to the individuals which compose the group.

Here's where the need for that "National" bit comes in, specifically in the form of "Ethnocentric National" descriptor: if everyone in the group is to share everything equally, you're going to be sorely disappointed if you think you can apply this paradigm to a multicultural society and achieve success, as each sub-clade within the group has its own, independent and often conflicting, interests (derivative from variable traits and behavioral/cultural patterns).
This inherently leads to conflict as regards attempted application of fair and equitable distribution of funds, goods and services; specifically, with peoples displaying diminished cognitive capacity and cultural/physiological predisposition towards violence and/or dim-wittedness tending toward exploitation of the conditions (benefiting themselves to the detriment of the group or components thereof), while higher-cog peoples tending to display a capacity for cooperation and reasoned organization (particularly if working within their own clade; that is, where homogenous populations exist).

Somalia was Communist, you dumb nigger.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Democratic_Republic

It belongs in the same ashheap of history like the USSR, the Shakers, and the Icarians.

Exactly what my thinking is. How do communists enforce the non-ownership of property? Ostracism? If they did that then those who wanted to own property would go off and start a free society. They can't have smart people leaving and the dumb people staying because the smart ones work hard and make money.

They need a distinctive group to enforce the non-ownership of property on everyone, which is a contradiction because the state ends up owning your life.

sage

National isn't a qualifier in National Socialism. NS has nothing to do with the collective ownership of the means of production.

If that is indeed what you were referencing.


What the government was 25 years ago is irrelevant in the case of a failed state. The market wasn't free when the government had power. It's power is gone and now the market is free.

Wrong. Communism means the dictator owns everything, including everyone as slaves. That's all that communism is. A way for psychopaths to con useful idiots into giving them absolute power.

You are absolutely retarded. Communism completely destroys a country yet again. Now its ruled by many petty warlords instead of one dictator.

But you blame capitalism, like a retard.

How exactly did I blame capitalism? You can't actually rebut the point and you are triggered as fuck. No State exists in Somalia. The geographic region in question has no national government. It is in a state of anarchy. How is the market being regulated? If a market is not being regulated it is a free market.

If you think that for a Free Market to exist you need a society full of AnCap zombies who implacable impose their ideology on the world and Capitalism doesn't exist without them then you are basically a fucking bolshevik because they believe the exact same thing about Communism.

"Petty warlords" are just your version of kulaks. The people who exhibit fairly predictable human nature and get in the way of your utopian nonsense.

Actually those warlords failed to take over. There's no tax-base to seize.

here is an economy lesson for you
don't listen to anything any economist says
money is fake
and nobody is ever going to give you shit ever

somalia was a wannabe socialist state. socialist policies then caused the state to implode, which then caused it to become a free market. from that lowest point it had recovered somewhat then the moslem jihadists showed up.

to produce something you need 3 things

the stuff that's already there
labour
and capital

the stuff that's already there is called 'land'. although it's not always land, sometimes it's water sometimes it's air. but land is a simple word that works for good amount of cases. primarily, you need land to grow food and you need land to dig out minerals.

then you need people to do the work. this is called 'labour'.

then you need equipment, vehicles, factory etc. which are called capitals.

the means of production are capitals. the grand accusation of the marxist is that people who control the means of production i.e. capitalists are 'oppressing' the people who do not own capitals.

Socialism and communism are pretty much the same thing, they just shuffle the words around because communism is associated with the Soviet failed state so it's a dirty word so they go by socialism now.

the socialists want to take control of capitals, because it is more 'fair' in their eyes to steal from people who have a lot to give to people who don't have much. this appeals to people who don't have a lot which then use the democratic voting power to steer the country towards socialism.

ecomists are all bullshitters..

they are all old fat jew bastards that sit around thinking about how to make other people work for them because their religion says they cannot work.

The whole idea of economies is a jewish concept, wherein some faggot thinks that he does not have to work with his hands.

well, isn't that cute, nigger thought he did not have to work with his hands and get his hands dirty….. welcome to the gulag.

People do what they are told through command and control mechanisms, if you do not do such, then you are exterminated…..welcome to auschwitz.

Economic theories are bullshit and for jew bastards and gay politicians and think tank circle jerk hoes, that need to explain their whole exsitance of their life, of why they do not work with their hands, so they made a carrerr about explaining away why they do not do shit ever. fuck em.

Don't be economic illiterate now.

adam smith never existed.

You never existed.

prove it

Are you sure you understand that darkest of niggers live there?

You forgot the biggest means of production, people.

Because without that all the other means of production are useless.

This leads to all kinds of unpleasant things.


There is more to free market capitalism than lack of government, there are fundamental cornerstones which were lacking in Somalia. Those cornerstones being things like respect for the natural rights of man (life, liberty, and property) and white people.

Seriously, its just niggers fucking things up yet again and going full gibzmedat like the average socialist which is why post-government collapse Somalia was shit.

Also Somalia had 'government', the country was broken up along tribal lines with warlords ruling them like small kingdoms, so it would be more accurate to describe it as a collection of monarchies than an anarchist society. Now they have a central government.

You have to prove you exist first.

but you can't, so you don't.

You're patethic. That's your libertarian paradise - look and weep, everyone is free. Who stops the pirates in US?. The working gov's with police and similar. Education?. Gov. Famine?. Gov with stamps. Diseases?. Gov with CDC, certainly not private hospitals that if they werent forced by gov through law they would leave moneyless people dying in front of hospitals. 30-50k dead yearly in US because they're outpriced from a health market. Not enough dead for you to qualify as capitalist failure?. And you need money for all of that, that's the ebil taxes. That's the ebil gov with socialist ideas that "doesn't work".

Let's not pretend govt education is a good thing now.

The govt things, mediocre things only to be improved by the private market.

Most of the "wealth" in the capitalism is just pumped financial markets. That explode after a while. Then the "escape" starts. People don't escape when there is a party, everyone escapes when it's time to pay the bill.

If the escape is about 200 years, then it means it's a healthy system.

All things age and die.

Think any of that explosion was made possible by money-printing or fixed interest rates or regulation or minimum wage?

only if you tell me which mengele got away

Education wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the gov. Gov is forcing (and paying for) kids into schools by making it mandatory. Without it you would still have illiterates in tens of percent.

You have a private Common Core that is sold to gov just for profit. There is your private "better".

It fails all the time, you just don't care, because you call it "market fluctuation", not a failure.

Boom/bust cycles are a result of government intervention into the market and didn't really exist prior to the creation of central banks, therefore they are not a symptom of free market capitalism.

yall faggots talking about jewish bullshit….

go watch your asain skanks on bloomberg.

none of the shit you are talking about is real.

fuck you faggots.

you are literally talking about jewish fables.

The government invents thing, then the private market improves it.

Nothing new.

The govt's fault for buying it when there are better alternatives being sold and bought right now.

If it fails but nothing happens, then it proves it's a healthy system.

You wouldn't have stuff to "improve" (a.k.a. steal money out of), if it wasn't for gov creation.

And you wouldn't have your improvement if not for the free market.

Daily reminder that it is the govt who buys the shit education and distributes them to the mass.

Nope. Slow, steady growth is a "healthy" system. Boom/bust cycle is not. Capitalism is the second one.

In the long scheme, capitalism is the slow and steady growth system since the boom/bust cycle happens in regular interval.

Free market means making money, not "improvement". It's not a "god that cares about it's children", it's a "gladiators ring", where the strongest wins all for himself.

Daily reminder that politicians are puppets, that do what oligarchy that put them in power tells them. Like buying bullshit systems, just for oligarchs profit.

Failure is a failure. Bust is a failure. Sure, we get out of it, but still - it failed. With steady growth you have none.

Making money is making improvement.

That is literally improvement, you cannot be the strongest if you cannot improvement.

If the market is stronger than the government, it means the government is shit.

It's more like my child grows, he just gets sick from time to time.

You want a spotless system, that is not realistic.

I would rather live in a den of wolves than a field of rabbits, competition breeds the best and the opposite simply allows the worst to propagate.

Natural eugenics vs subsidized dysgenics, take your pick.

Also considering how much you go on about government and the boom bust cycles I suspect you don't actually understand what free market capitalism actually is.

Eventually you'll figure out that socialism is more closely tied to hitler's socialism than marx's and then you'll kek heartily but also cry because it's pretty damn functional unlike modern socialism/communism. Somewhat closer is the non-marx idea of socialism is syndicatism where each worker owns an equal part of the company and shares in the company's profits equally relative to their input. It's basically what would happen if you and a couple of mates started up a small business - everyone works to their strengths, everyone gets paid a share of the weekly profits.

Not for all the dead that died in the process


Yeah, no.


Lolbertarian "logic". We never dindu nuffin.

Kids getting sick is still a failure of a human body. Usually it learns and gets immunity without showing anything.

One can only rule through government, you cant rule someone if they have the choice of walking away.

All kids get sick and show something through.

They improve over times, with immunity, training and/or medication.

Or some just die because they are weak.

This is natural, just like capitalism.

Hitler's socialism is prussian socialism, which is a reaction to mainstream socialism and has nothing to do with socialism at all.

So you want to save everyone? That is an unrealistic goal.
The goal of making money leads you to self-improve.
Let's see your side.

Govt invents shit => Govt is best.
Govt makes bad shit => it's the corporation's fault.
Govt dindu nuffin.

A fun thought I had the other day about socialism / communism*.

So now "Somalia" failed because of niggers, and Venezuela is failing because of Spicniggers.

Dudes, dudes, dudes… The Soviet Union even though it was run by Jews! You know, the accountants and master merchants? That means NOT EVEN THE FUCKING JEWS COULD MAKE COMMUNISM* RUN!

And the russian jews figured that out. The only jews that are still believing in communism are the western ones, the ones that never actually lived in a bolshevik* country.

* Difference Socialism, Communism, Bolshevism:

Socialism = The state runs the economy

Communism = The economy somehow runs itself without private property, impossible utopia, yet what socialism aims to develop into

Bolshevism = The Jews run the socialist state

Pfft. Even in your example you can't say gov can do good. No objectivity at all.


Capitalist are brainwashed to accept everything what happens. It's a religion, not economic system, it's all gods (free markets) plan, whether people die or are born. You don't even think about your own interest, because i can safely assume you'll be the ones that die in the "gladiator ring". Maybe you'll notice that someday.

Large portions of a population being mass murdered by their government isnt normal, but in socialism it is!

Fairness is getting what you deserve, and people dieing because of their poor decisions is both fair and natural
also >implying private charity doesn't exist

Means of Production are literally that - anything used in the production of goods. The "workers" are the quasi-mythic people who are subject to the means of production. "Community" is the label stupid people give themselves in large numbers.

Of course the govt can do good, the point is corporations and private sector does it better.
People dying is a normal thing though. People die in either systems or no system at all.

Socialism comes in a variety of forms. Personally I think syndicalism would work alright but that is not the direction that any major socialist party is pushing for. Essentially the public breaks into sectors, let's say one sector is mining, one sector is farming, one sector is carpentry, etc. Each sector runs their industry collectively, takes care of the groups' needs, and decides things as a group. Like I said there's no actual socialist parties pushing that way though, most of them are pushing for social dem policies or actual communism.

that's commendable but you have to realize there's a reason you never get a clear, objective definition of these arguments. leftards are intentionally vague so they can escape scrutiny.

Communism - no one owns anything and everything is shared, including wives and children.

Socialism - the wealth is being redistributed to the lowers classes by the government, which may or may not include seizing any means of production, depending on how much wealth is being redistributed.

The rest of your post is just gibberish.
I'm tired of politically ignorant idiots like you.

This, while Ben Shapiro is a traitor cuck he does have some good advise when it comes to debating with leftists, with one of the main ones being to lock them down at the start by specifying what they mean when they use terms like 'capitalism' or 'socialism'.

so we can all agree that both communism and socialism are fucking terrible and have no viability in the real word.

Don't play biology games as if they are in any way indicative of economics, faggot. Niggers implement everything poorly. There is no system with a nigger other than killing and muhdicking. What's written down on paper (by one of the few dindus smart enough to write) is irrelevant.

Somalia doesn't do systems. It's a bunch of low IQ niggers sitting around raping sheboons, spreading GRIDS, receiving the love of ebolachan, stealing and fighting.

You're not going to get any good comparisons of economic models by examining how the mentally retarded attempt to implement it. Arguing over it is a fruitless endeavor.

This.

Its not like one day all the Somalians were sitting around reading Rothbard and debating the function of government in society when they suddenly decided to overthrow their government. Instead they were a bunch of niggers whose government collapsed and what followed was what niggers do best.

No, he's a Jew, they were never on our side. If he was white he'd be a traitor cuck.

What was the point of that post?

Yes, the Somalia argument is the kind of argument that can only successfully be made in PC normalfag space and it's a sneaky fucking kike tactic to exploit one's desire to avoid being publicly shamed rather than employing a careful examination of the facts in order to win an argument. Fortunately the Shlomo tactics don't work here.

They fell apart precisely because they were communist as all nigger nations tend to be… the only African nation that that mostly stayed away from the USSR is Botswana and they're the least shit Sub-Saharan nation in that failed continent.

You know that sage isn't "le downboat", right? It's just posting without bumping a thread.

The means of production in socialist theory does not include human capital, personnel. It's specifically referring to capital, in the form of infrastructure and natural resources most specifically.

As I've already said, there is no Capitalism in Somalia because there weren't enough raving ideologues which is also why Communism failed in Somalia. If every Somalian was a raving ideologue willing to die for Communism instead of having more or less natural human (to the extent that Somalians are human) interests then it would have succeeded.

You are definitionally incorrect anyway. A market is Free when it is unimpeded by the State, so no there isn't definitionally more to Free Market Capitalism than lack of government. The reality is that 'Capitalism' and things like property "rights" are imposed by the State and all of the hallmarks of Liberty exist as a byproduct of a rightly-ordered society which means putting people in their place by force.

The Liberal conception that Capitalism is a natural science and exists in a state of nature only impeded by the hubris of man and that man himself is meant to be "free" and anything imposed upon him is some form of slavery leads inevitably to chaos and tyranny which are not conducive to any kind of market.

This is what an anarchist society looks like. You are simply saying that there were an insufficient number of Free Market Bolsheviks to make it work, which is conceptually identical to the worldview of Communists. If you need a whole society brainwashed into your ideology to the point that they are incapable of competing along non-approved lines then you are basically talking about Bolshevism regardless of whatever idea about economics exist.


It's neither of those things. It's a system that disprivileges those without the mindset of a Merchant and promotes those people to success, and ultimately acts as a eugenic filter against all other types that fill niches within human societies who are necessary but do not thrive as Merchants. It's a system that breeds people with a leftist ordination at disproportionate rates and eschews the existence of people with masterful qualities or the psychological ability to make war and so will seek those qualities out in a foreign cohort. It's the ideology of a parasite that kills the host and then seeks out a new one. This process has happened historically as well, but not nearly as quickly as it is happening now because historically there was never an ideology that dictated that losing all of societies warriors, and priests, and aristocrats is actually a good thing.


Capitalism doesn't allow competition except along lines that are conducive to producing better merchants. All other forms of competition are disprivileged because they are detrimental to the economy. Capitalism doesn't breed predators. It breed prey. You can look at White Flight as evidence of that. Remove the wolf from society and the rabbits do what rabbits do. They run and they hide.

Capitalism is as dysgenic. It is the dysgenic trends of Liberal societies which lead to socialism.


East Germany was dysfunctional, but not in total collapse. So the human capital definitely makes a huge difference. It's more likely that the Soviet Union failed because of slavs, who are not naturally a highly eusocial, industrious group.

In WWII the German soldiers captured by the US were given work leave in North America. Released as farm laborers on their own recognizance who returned to the prisons under their own free will. The Italians were put in maximum security prisons and never stopped trying to escape. Germans made Soviet Socialism limp on a lot better than the rest of Eastern Bloc. Communism would never work at all in Italy for the same reason it never did in slavland.

There is no point arguing with leftists, they generally say incredibly vague shit in order to win people over. They also like manipulating people with definitions by first thinking of what they want to accomplish and then changing the definition of words to fit that idea. Chomsky is a very good example of this, whereby most of his arguments are just him defining shit and then stating that because the definitions he gave are contradictory, that whatever he just said is assumed to be true by default. Same goes to "workers own the means of production", which leftists like to define however they want. Someone that built his own business from nothing does not count as worker because "HE'S A PART OF THE SYSTEM" even though he had to work hard to get where he was and he continues to work to ensure the business doesn't crash and cause him to be in debt for the next 100 years. The possibility to do this does not count as owning the means of production because in their eyes he is oppressing those that didn't decide to do that.

Except that is exactly what OP just said. Factories are non-human capital because they contain all the machinery necessary for the process along with the building itself. Including natural resources doesn't make the term any less broad, which is the main criticism here.
You are legitimately retarded, m8. Although there is far less emphasis on tangible products, the financial sector has very little to do with the success of the US. Service-based economies still get most of their revenue from production of tangible products, even Luxembourg which has a bank around every corner due to telling the EU to fuck off about bank laws makes a shitload of money from steel production.

...

If you're so tired why did you respond?

sage

sage all stupid fucking questions threads they are a demoralization tactic

sage all stupid fucking questions threads they are a demoralization tactic

sage all stupid fucking questions threads they are a demoralization tactic


sage all stupid fucking questions threads they are a demoralization tactic

sage all stupid fucking questions threads they are a demoralization tactic

wow that is interesting