Survey

Luke Thompson
Luke Thompson

Survey: 1 in 4 South African men admit to committing rape

One in four South African men questioned in a survey said they had raped someone, and nearly half of them admitted more than one attack.

The study, by the country's Medical Research Council, also found three out of four who admitted rape had attacked for the first time during their teens.

It said practices such as gang rape were common because they were considered a form of male bonding.

The MRC spoke to 1,738 men in KwaZulu-Natal and Eastern Cape provinces.

The research was conducted in both rural and urban areas and included all racial groups.

Using an electronic device to keep the results anonymous, the study found that 73% of those who admitted rape said they had carried out their first assault before the age of 20.

Almost half who said they had carried out a rape admitted they had done so more than once.

One in 20 men surveyed said they had raped a woman or girl in the last year.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8107039.stm

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Other urls found in this thread:

ranprieur.com/readings/americanpsycho.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Egypt
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_cleansing_myth
reuters.com/article/us-uganda-women-rape/ugandas-women-girls-seek-justice-to-halt-sexual-violence-rights-group-idUSKBN0NR2M020150506
capitalfm.co.ke/news/2010/03/sexual-violations-still-unreported-in-kenya/
timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2018-03-22-eskom-wants-a-30-price-increase/
news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/world-water-day-water-crisis-explained/
qz.com/1179387/africas-economic-outlook-is-promising-for-2018-but-there-clouds-on-the-horizon/
hollaforums.com/thread/8359527/politics/post-your-leftypol-bans-and-stories-i-posted.html
businessinsider.com/stupid-racist-meme-rape-black-men-2016-10

Jaxon Hernandez
Jaxon Hernandez

No racism / shitposting allowed ITT

Charles Baker
Charles Baker

woops, looks like we accidentally shitposted in a mod's thread

Ian Hall
Ian Hall

How is it racist if it's accurate?

Ian Perry
Ian Perry

This is obviously only because of the material conditions in South Africa. There is no other explanation.

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Ayden Scott
Ayden Scott

The Mỹ Lai Massacre called

Tyler Mitchell
Tyler Mitchell

I mean, the answer is simple, Capital Persuits reduce women to property or goals, thus it encourages individual psychopathy which includes rape in order to raise one's self perceived "superiority"

Additionally, older beliefs may lend to concepts of women not meaning consent, thus in a way justifying rape for these people.

indeed, the bbc is very relevant to the conversation. their choice of sources could be biased

Also if this is a mod thread can you go deal with that incel indian's thread

SA is closely tied to the USA, that is enough to explain the trend of rape.

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Kevin Watson
Kevin Watson

It's going to be another race thread that gets 500 posts in a few hours and devolves into baboonposting
Here we go boys!

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Josiah Martinez
Josiah Martinez

Rapes are high in burger and hueland

The more Americanised a nation is, the more potential it has for raep.

ranprieur.com/readings/americanpsycho.html

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Aaron Scott
Aaron Scott

thread about reading
thread about racism

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Benjamin Hernandez
Benjamin Hernandez

If this is caused by race, I have to wonder why other African countries like Kenya and Uganda have a lower rate of rape than the US, Sweden, etc? The /pol/tard would say it's because of non-white immigration. But then how do you explain Mongolia (ethnostate with no immigration) having more rape than Kenya?

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Blake Gutierrez
Blake Gutierrez

additionally, its definition is not defined well, esp in sweden.

Jaxson James
Jaxson James

egypt has almost zero rape
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this data is unreliable due to vast differences in reporting and data collection.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Egypt

Lincoln Moore
Lincoln Moore

Chaya. No. Women don't report/police don't care. It's not about race, but let's not he stupid here. Backwards country, backwards people, backwards mentality.
There is nothing to explain here

Asher Martin
Asher Martin

essentially the beliefs of the old and unreasonable, which is an understatement

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_cleansing_myth

Zachary James
Zachary James

report being raped in third world shithole
become outcast and shame to the family
great idea femme

Asher Walker
Asher Walker

This was America not even in historically recent terms, in a blink of an eye historically

Ever wonder why the people who rape the most have not much to lose? Either the extreme poor or the extremely wealthy? Let's not joke, the issue is not race.

The issue in fact, is power and money

Juan Williams
Juan Williams

I don't think I've ever seen a 1 in 5 type rape/assault ratio be statistically accurate and not just fudged numbers for scare tactics. It's funny to see how both tumblr and /pol/ will uncritically swallow them up depending on who they're talking about.

Robert Wright
Robert Wright

Uganda:
reuters.com/article/us-uganda-women-rape/ugandas-women-girls-seek-justice-to-halt-sexual-violence-rights-group-idUSKBN0NR2M020150506
Rape is the first sexual experience of almost a quarter of Ugandan women aged 15-49, and 39 percent of women in this age group have been subjected to sexual violence, according to Uganda’s 2006 Demographic and Health Survey.

Kenya:
capitalfm.co.ke/news/2010/03/sexual-violations-still-unreported-in-kenya/
“You find that rape cases are still not being reported. In all these GBV cases, rape takes only about three percent. Victims are still ashamed to report and afraid of publicity,” she says.

Jonathan Barnes
Jonathan Barnes

Victims are still ashamed to report and afraid of publicity
This sounds very much like the US.

Cooper Scott
Cooper Scott

How come victims aren't ashamed about it in South Africa?

Lucas Sanchez
Lucas Sanchez

The aspect is cultural aswell, there is still some stigma to a woman not being a virgin at marriage for example, and additionally America is now using progress to further mask Capitalist Ruthlessness, they claim to be against Rape but will continue to support a system that reduces and encourages women to be simply goals for men to take, as opposed to encouraging improvement for self interest.

Justin Myers
Justin Myers

The south african data in the OP was from a survey of women, not based on the # of reported rapes.

Kevin Jackson
Kevin Jackson

Dude, it's trash. I don't want to be /pol/ but the time I spent in africa made really sorry/afraid for these people. Mind that this was nigeria, not even the bottom of the barrel, visiting a nigerian brothel really changed your perceptions on thing.

Also I've read statistic about liberal (the bottom of the barrel) in which it was shown that at least 70% of women in Liberia has been raped once in their life, mind that this is not rape in the sense of being watched on the streets.
It's really hell on earth, people seen it on television and when they go there they stay in their luxury hotels with a warm bad, air conditioner and vaccines. If you venture out of the safe zone it's actually fucking scary just to breath. It's really a visceral feeling and you can think I'm dramatizing, but no trust me.
Everything it's hostile there. I always thought I was street smart and I'm pretty used to see poverty but boy, I felt like a little school girl in the wrong neighborhood.

Sebastian Gonzalez
Sebastian Gonzalez

/pol/ btfo yet again
wtf i love block cock now

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Benjamin Richardson
Benjamin Richardson

I'll take your word on it rather than read sociological evidence based reasons why this happens, after all why wouldn't you have the answer? "bruh they're black" is the answer to all answers, just flash it in front of everyone and watch as everyone is convinced

Brayden Richardson
Brayden Richardson

well yeah, it is liberia, guess which country made it so exponentially worse?

nobody denies the rut africa is in, but we cannot simply ignore the american hand that subtlety encourages this, never forget it was an african-AMERICAN charles taylor that fought against a once american backed leader of samuel kanyon doe

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Jacob Roberts
Jacob Roberts

Anyone got rape statistics for Burkina Faso under Sankara and other socialist African countries?

Luis Nguyen
Luis Nguyen

zero, also there were no incels.
state issued gfs

Henry Cox
Henry Cox

bruh they're black
Never dared to say that you cheeky cunt.
Brush they are fucked up under every aspect and the dumpster of porky would be my answer, but what an american piece of shit would know? He'd rather trigger /pol/ than be fucking realistic.
Africa it's shit and don't give me none of that "IT'S RICH OF CULTURE" countries are beyond fucked up, it's not their fault but I wouldn't even know where to start fixing
Why you have to justify the unjustifiable even when people are not blaming it on race? This is a shit attitude of the liberal
Shit no doubt about. Have you ever read congo's history? Read the Wikipedia page, it's better than a Le Carrè novel I swear. It's just scary to think about it tbh, these continent was literally used as a dumpster for so long that it doesn't even know anything else.
People knew who kanye west was but saw the first world only through media.

Kayden Gonzalez
Kayden Gonzalez

You're probably French or something

Owen Bennett
Owen Bennett

No why?

Joshua Evans
Joshua Evans

niggas eternally wildin'

Eli Brown
Eli Brown

SA is closely tied to the USA, that is enough to explain the trend of rape.
???

Kevin Edwards
Kevin Edwards

Rape has a diffrent deffiniton in Sweden than in Egypt. Also this is affected by the ability of victims to speak out. This graph is bullshit.

Cooper Ortiz
Cooper Ortiz

More news from South Africa:

Electrical bills will raise by 30%
timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2018-03-22-eskom-wants-a-30-price-increase/

Cape Town soon to have no running water
news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/world-water-day-water-crisis-explained/

Evan Moore
Evan Moore

Probably because developed nations are more likely to recognize rape.

Levi Rogers
Levi Rogers

This is why 20% of the women in American universities got rapped and Sweden is the rape capital of the world.
Sweden and American unis are the safest place for women I can think of.

Parker Sanchez
Parker Sanchez

*20% of women in american universities get sexual assaulted with a wide definition of sexual assault

Justin Adams
Justin Adams

Yeah. The thing that bugs me most about how rape is sensationalized is that everyone focuses on women and ignores the other victims of rape. Ignoring male victims I can understand even though I don't agree with it, but it really steams me that people always ignore kids.

There are lots of problems with that figure, not least of which is that if you put out a call for participants in a sexual assault survey you automatically bias in favor of more victims, since victims are more likely to respond.

Charles Reed
Charles Reed

African decent here. can confirm.

Parker Ward
Parker Ward

read the other posts in the thread

Noah Morris
Noah Morris

yeah iirc the survey response rate for that data is in around 20%, which could be a major confounding variable

Ethan Torres
Ethan Torres

Gee it’s almost like anytime a large number of niggers inhabit a nation along side whites there seems to be a highly disproportionately number of rapes committed by them. Probably just coincidental, and most likely doesn’t apply to any other form of violent crime.

Adrian Allen
Adrian Allen

For what it's worth, I don't think you adequately explained or defended your position of 'it's america's fault'.
It just seems like a knee jerk reaction because you don't want to think about this very hard.
Surely there are other developing countries that America has been involved with that don't have rape epidemics, so there must be other factors at play.

Lucas Campbell
Lucas Campbell

Dude. Rape is present in really backwards cultures. Fact. If you live in a borderline lawless land it adds up. End of the story.

David Long
David Long

I think America exacerbates, and many of the nations America has been involved with also involve the well of nations such as Japan, western europe etc

America literally chooses who becomes a shithole and who deserves their support. So much so they are bullying japan now and can get away with it since japan knows this.

Gavin Hernandez
Gavin Hernandez

Dude.
Fact.

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Parker Long
Parker Long

Interesting perspective mr Tank, unfortunately if I reply with my thoughts i'd probably get banned.

Luis Butler
Luis Butler

2446962
I'm not a mod fam

Jacob Stewart
Jacob Stewart

What? Is this something unknown?
I don't see what's the problem in this thread, africa is shithole. Is that controversial of a statment? Countries can be really shitty

Mason Gutierrez
Mason Gutierrez

This is a mod thread, eventually the OP will check back in and toss around some 4 week bans.

Your posting style is a just a bit grating. This isn't how people talk on chans.

Connor Ramirez
Connor Ramirez

just coincidental

Yeah, precisely what people are saying in this thread.

Isaac Hughes
Isaac Hughes

although, I think the region holds great promise if it's successful nations can keep up their development.

qz.com/1179387/africas-economic-outlook-is-promising-for-2018-but-there-clouds-on-the-horizon/

It reminds me of reddit arrivals on 4/pol/ tbqh

Dominic Lewis
Dominic Lewis

although, I think the region holds great promise if it's successful nations can keep up their development.
Good luck doing that, I don't think the USA would let them
Suck my dick, and you too tank poster.
I'm 2016 new but not that new, I used to post on here with a stalin stache and left around december, I only keep track of the NK thread.
No I don't belong here, I never adapted to chan culture and I probably never will. This doesn't make my argument less true. Africa is worse than shit and even people get raped for breakfast, not because of race but because is a lawless hell hole of a dumpster for porky's trash

Robert Perez
Robert Perez

Another example of toxic masculinity and rape culture. This is seen as a "sport" by these men and women are nothing to them but prey to won and conquered.
Material conditions due to poverty mixed with a regressive culture dominated by white supremacy is most likely the cause of such high level rape.

Ryder Sanders
Ryder Sanders

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I am just saying you are pretty irritating.

Jonathan Martinez
Jonathan Martinez

The regressive culture in S.A. is due to the ANC, not to whites. The whites actively fought rape when they were in power. The new ANC cops are happy to just dick around.

Alexander Hernandez
Alexander Hernandez

South African Men
South African

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Landon Cruz
Landon Cruz

Why? Because I don't talk like a fellow anonymous?

Thomas Taylor
Thomas Taylor

More precisely, your righteous indignation. Reminds me of Jordan Peterson.

Lucas Rodriguez
Lucas Rodriguez

Muh righteous indignation

I wish you could express yourself without sucking dick

Luke Martin
Luke Martin

he knows not of the age of comfy posting, let him learn

Cooper Young
Cooper Young

No need to insult this much.
I just know first hand how women live in those countries and it's not good.
Not for a moment I blamed it on race or anything but how africa got fucked by imperialism, but the liberal rethoric of some people in these thread were the poor African can do no bad is quite fucking autistic tbh.
Obviously if it was just scamming or killing for money it could justified, but when it comes to rape no one can explain why and so they negate like chaya did by posting that shit map.
I admit they are fucking animals, like every person from a poor country is less civilized than someone from the first world, but I don't blame it on genetics. Negating how much of a shit africa is and how dangerous it is it's just naivety or denial

Landon Rodriguez
Landon Rodriguez

africa got fucked by imperialism
Because it was so great before. No ethnic cleaning, no rape as a weapon of war, no slavery everywhere, no burning the harvests to starve entire populations…

Tyler Perez
Tyler Perez

Imperialism was bad for Africa

Some people man. Imagine going from eating grass and hunting people with spears for their shrunken heads to a steady job, anti-biotics and a net decrease in both premature deaths and famines….to eating people's shrunken and hunting for grass.

Being honest, being conquered by Europeans was the best thing to ever happen to Africa.

Joshua James
Joshua James

Holla Forums turns more and more into /b/ every day

Owen Collins
Owen Collins

It hasn't developed thanks to colonialism/imperialism, that's the point.
Burkina Faso is a good example of what africa could be when free from the chain of colonialism.

Parker Carter
Parker Carter

actual colonialism defenders, fucking hell

Brayden Rodriguez
Brayden Rodriguez

Burkina Faso is a good example of what africa could be when free from the chain of colonialism.
Burkina Faso was colonize by France. Ethiopia is the only country in Sub Saharan Africa that was almost completely spared of the colonial yolk.

Nolan Jackson
Nolan Jackson

As a French, I admit being colonized by Rome was the best thing to happen to us in our history.

Over 6 millions Gauls, one died in the war and another was taken as slaves. When the empire felt, we got assrapped from every side.

It is still the reason we went from villages in the forest to civilisation.

Leo Bell
Leo Bell

It's a former colony. You think of Ethopia and it's not the best country in the world.

Jace Collins
Jace Collins

Only 20 people is supposed to represent a whole country?

Connor Sanders
Connor Sanders

reading comprehension

Sebastian Martinez
Sebastian Martinez

Shouldn't this be on /pol/? I guess the Overton Window has shifted in our direction! We have lefties telling the truth about Der Schwarze!

Hunter Moore
Hunter Moore

Wowie, it's almost like black people are lumpenproles or something? But surely that cant be, Contrapoints told me that black people having gibsmedats = socialism

Noah Moore
Noah Moore

Nope. Actually my country did colonize it.
Mate are you justifing colonialism or what? Or you just misunderstood? When I said Burkina Faso I meant under sankara

Wyatt Collins
Wyatt Collins

As a /pol/ack, I would say that black women are generally more willing to have sex with black men than white women are, and Sweden is the rape capitol of the world because of all the migrants seeing the beautiful white aryan women and being rejected by most of them, so what they can't have willingly, they take by force. I will admit, it has some less-than-clear laws about rape, but it has still skyrocketed ever since the muslims went in.

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Jose Cox
Jose Cox

Please fuck off. Justifing rape is a new low

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Evan Gutierrez
Evan Gutierrez

When I said Burkina Faso I meant under sankara
Sankara has been unduly canonized imo. He was only in power for 4 years before he got coup'ed. The man who lead the coup then went on to be president for 30 years and reversed all of Sankara's policies.

Logan Hall
Logan Hall

You completely missed the point. Read what I said again, carefully. You will see what I meant. People tend to be more attracted to members of the same race. We know this based on miscegenation rates when people are given the choice of who they love. Muslims and Africans trampling around Europe are typically rejected by white women, and thus are raped more often than not because they are unwilling to miscegenate, and these refugees didn't bring many women with them. If you want rapes to decrease, stop racial integration programs and send them back where they came from, because white men in Europe tend to not be rapists.

Matthew Reyes
Matthew Reyes

Chaya, stop posting bad data please. It's embarrassing.

Gavin Roberts
Gavin Roberts

these refugees didn't bring many women with them.
This is how you know they are not war refugees but clandestin immigrants who come for the money.

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Adam Cook
Adam Cook

So, why does whites don't rape black women?

Anthony Bell
Anthony Bell

The research was conducted in both rural and urban areas and included all racial groups.

Well I guess /pol/ can't blame the blacks entirely for this one.

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Grayson Johnson
Grayson Johnson

just because all of country was polled does not mean that the rate is equal across groups
we would need more granular data to establish that

Anthony Rodriguez
Anthony Rodriguez


What?

Elijah Ramirez
Elijah Ramirez

Maybe they have less data available, so rapes arent recorded

Henry Walker
Henry Walker

Imagine going from eating grass and hunting people with spears
So you don't know anything about African history and you think it only started when Europeans showed up during the Renaissance.

Oliver Diaz
Oliver Diaz

Wow! To think that there are people who can read this and not realize that Gulags will be a major part of any right-standing society.

Colton Moore
Colton Moore

We have lefties telling the truth about Der Schwarze!
We have something awful rejects at hollaforums raiding us with these kinds of threads
hollaforums.com/thread/8359527/politics/post-your-leftypol-bans-and-stories-i-posted.html

Nathaniel Martinez
Nathaniel Martinez

I still have no idea what the deal with Holla Forums is.

Cooper Allen
Cooper Allen

From what I gather it’s a 4chan archive that attempts to look like a real forum for ad revenue

Leo Thomas
Leo Thomas

1: Definitions of rape is subjective, it varies from country

2: Some countries, in particular African countries, struggle to keep track of simple weather forecasts to help farmers let alone getting a central database up and running with all the crime committed.

3: As last factor, and this is a difficult one to explain I would say diversity of beliefs and diversity of cultures / groups. One group / culture has little issue committing horrifying crimes against the other group. Since the other group is seen as bad / the enemy. Therefore I would expect with more diversity of religion, more diversity of cultures that social unrest, and with it crimes, would rise.

You can still make a race argument if you somehow link more masculine / testosterone fueled behavior with increased likelihood of risky behavior including rapes. African men have higher testosterone production. From this comes patriarchal masculine culture and if nothing is done by social norms or morals then this behavior is a consequence from a patriarchy.

Benjamin Lopez
Benjamin Lopez

SA has always been and always will be a shithole.

Levi Robinson
Levi Robinson

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Jonathan Thomas
Jonathan Thomas

wew

Isaiah Stewart
Isaiah Stewart

Pigs do

Aiden Peterson
Aiden Peterson

Say something I don't know

Wyatt Butler
Wyatt Butler

Unsourced JPG-artifact salad

Ryan Green
Ryan Green

/pol/ complains about "rapefugees" but wants us to take these people

Kevin Harris
Kevin Harris

implying the south africans they want are responsible for these stats

Jackson Robinson
Jackson Robinson

1 in 4 South African men

Correction, 1 in 4 South African BLACK men

Nathan Collins
Nathan Collins

Capital Persuits reduce women to property or goals, thus it encourages individual psychopathy which includes rape in order to raise one's self perceived "superiority"

They rape because they choose not to control their sexual urges.

Wtf does capital persuits mean?

Ryder Peterson
Ryder Peterson

Thats a forum scraping website. Its content is stolen from other sites with a bot progrsm.

Tyler Williams
Tyler Williams

In my defence I waa drunk and it was poorly worded

Austin Mitchell
Austin Mitchell

"The research was conducted in both rural and urban areas and included all racial groups."

Liam Green
Liam Green

see

Bentley Gutierrez
Bentley Gutierrez

So do people seriously think it's because black ppl are bad etc.? Dumbdumb. Rape and other antisocial behaviors happen because there is no good social narrative and organization that can provide order and mental stability. Why would anyone even think of race when its obvious SA is one of the most tense societies there is. Colonialism, 80% of the population is basically second class in their own country.

Race is simply not relevant. For those who wish it to make an issue, think: are you trying to kill a bunch of ppl? Not worth it. We have to make social systems that can provide order and competition without grievous abuse. Like Sojourner Truth said about women, if women have a pint while men have a quart (of intellect), why not let the woman fill up her pint? This is not to admit of such differences, but even if you believe in them we still need societies that give people the chance to be decent and respected. Private property rights and arrogant bigotry stand im the way.

Oliver Howard
Oliver Howard

So do people seriously think it's because black ppl are bad etc.?
No one here said that

Jace Allen
Jace Allen

some people definitely did but they were banned and their posts were deleted

Bentley Murphy
Bentley Murphy

Because you're a fucking retard that can't fucking read and doesn't understand how math or statistics work.

businessinsider.com/stupid-racist-meme-rape-black-men-2016-10

A 2008 report from the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) really does seem to state that zero black women were raped by white men in the US that year, and imply that 19,293 white women (that's the 16.4% in the chart below) were raped by black men. (The chart below also seems to show that many more white women — about 88,000 — were raped by white men.)

As Cohen notes, there are tiny little asterisks sprinkled all over this table. But you have to scroll all the way to the bottom of the page to figure out what they mean.

You read that right. Just 10 or fewer women made up some of the samples surveyed for this report, and their small number of experiences has been extrapolated to represent tens of thousands of assaults.

Here's what Cohen has to say about this:

I can't believe we're talking about this. The most important bottom line is that the BJS should not report extrapolations to the whole population from samples this small. These population numbers should not be on this table. At best these numbers are estimated with very large standard errors. (Using a standard confident interval calculator, that 16% of White women, based on a sample of 69, yields a confidence interval of +/- 9%.) It's irresponsible, and it's inadvertently (I assume) feeding White supremacist propaganda.

In other words, a sample size this tiny simply cannot be understood to tell us anything about what's going on at the population level. The odds of picking any 10 or fewer women out of a crowd whose experiences have nothing to do with what's typical are far, far too high.

In an email to Business Insider, Lynn Langton, the researcher who oversees victimization statistics for BJS, acknowledged that the methods of the 2008 report no longer meet the Bureau's standards.

"These posts and memes rely on data that is eight years old," she wrote, "because 2008 was the last year that BJS published Criminal Victimization in the US - Statistical Tables. Many of the estimates in the 100+ tables (not limited to Table 42) do not meet our current standards for reporting so we no longer report out this information on an annual basis. "

As Cohen writes in his blog post, there are also a number of reasons why this table would tell a misleading story even if the data-gathering methods were improved.

First of all, the report uses a household sample. That means that at least one demographic is left out entirely: prisoners. A 2011 to 2012 survey of inmates found that about 3,500 women are subjected to "staff sexual misconduct" in jails and prisons every year — with black women 50% more likely to report this than white women.

"So I'm guessing the true number of Black women sexually assaulted by White men is somewhat greater than zero, and that's just in prisons and jails," Cohen writes.

Second, most perpetrators of sexual assault are close to their victims. And a full 27% are current or former partners of their victims.

As Cohen notes, 2% of white women are married to black men, and 5% of black women are married to white men. Because of differences in population sizes, that means there are far more white women married to black men than black women married to white men. That means that even if white men and black men raped their spouses at exactly symmetrical rates, we'd expect more white women to report rapes by black men than black women by white men.

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Nicholas Butler
Nicholas Butler

if had comunism this not happen

Cameron Bell
Cameron Bell

devolves into baboonposting
*ascends, it would be an improvement

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