As a small business owner, why do you guys want to see me stripped of my hard earned property...

Since you're likely new, I want you to know that there a few different socialist tendencies here (It's a big tent), each of which have different approaches to this. I'm not commenting on which one is right. But some of the more authoritarian (tank worshippers) on this board will tell you that you need to be shot. You should understand that the responses you get from one poster are unlikely to be held by more than 25% of this board.

Having said that, I would tell you as a libertarian socialist that my aim is to increase property ownership, by sharing it among the people you employ who contribute to your business. If you're a company of one, then it's already as shared as it needs to be.

To understand our positions better, I strongly advise you to look up personal versus private property. We strongly support personal property. Our concerns with private property ownership are that natural law doesn't permit any to make certain resources (land) artificially scarce by claiming ownership over something not used (often times for purposes of rent extraction). If your business doesn't fall into this category, then it's likely your property ownership won't be drastically affected in our society.

then you just would work for the state now, or workers council in case of cooperative
plenty of examples when newly expropriated factory was still managed by the old owner for some time

Holy shit Im laughing my tits off as I imagine the revolution and Holla Forums is the one that seizes Holla Forums from this petite bourgeois who just grinds his teeth with tears of frustration in his eyes.

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This is why I hate small-business owners tbh their such penny pinching kikes and hardasses -even more than the literally Jewish-run megacorps

This. I deserve $40 an hour to flip burgers. Anything less is a clear case of extracting surplus value from me.

Being a small businessman who owns a small shop and employs few workers who work by the hour means he is not a bourgeoisie and he does not treat his workers like cogs in a machine. He pays them hourly, meaning that workers are free to do what they want to when they are not working. If workers are able to buy the fruits of their labour, then no Marxist communist should have an issue with small businessmen.

You are supposed to get the fruit of your labour only, not more than that. Somebody who works more deserves more than burger flippers. 40$ is like Rs. 2400 here, and I will to bet that more people deserve that 40$ than a burger flipper.
Soviet Union did not overpay for such things either.

why not?
if business generates profits in millions, I don't see why someone who provided capital should be paid more than burger flipper

also, when work is done, it is done
no rent for past work

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The workers should co-own the shop with the businessman.

oh hi "hard worker", enjoy the next recession

Small businesses are a meme. You should be more scared of porkies than commies since they're the biggest threat to your operation, Enjoy trying to compete with mega coporations in an ever consolidating capitalist market. With the ever falling rate of profit there is no way that small businesses stand a chance against the larger entities that can still work under those conditions.

Small business owners are known for being terrible at actually paying wages or supporting their employees. In order to stand a chance against larger businessess they have to treat their workers like shit. The fact that workers still show up to these shitty jobs despite not even getting payed what they're supposed to tell you something about how wrong and utopian the "lol just find another job"-mentality is.

Daily reminder theres no such thing as "fair wage" because in order for a capitalist to make profit he has to pay his workers less than what their labour is worth

Big corporations together with government and banks do all in their power to exploit OP, but it doesn't matter, in the end of the day when bank forces OP to bankrupt, or big corporation forces him to quit by unfair tactics, OP will still blame socialism

Yeah. He's petite-bourgeoisie.
How he personally treats them has nothing to do with the larger, structural role that the proletariat finds itself in.
The worker still sacrifices of portion of his life to produce a surplus for an owner in order to reproduce his existence. Pay schemes don't alter that fact.
This is ridiculous. A worker being able to buy a widget he made at the widget factory is not "buying the fruits of his labor".

Well that's capitalisms problem, not yours.

as I see it predatory pricing and cartel agreements are a pretty fair tactic

No need to get abusive mate, he's merely doing what the system compels him to do.

Why not?

Too bad.

U mad?

What about stripping you of your hard earned property? Sounds like a good initiative to me.

On a more serious note:

They can take a similar risk and start their own business? Why should ambitious people share their labour with people that dont share their drive? You assume everyone is equal, this is clearly not the case. Why should someone that is smarter earn as much (or as little) as someone that isnt smart at all… ? Why is the collective so important?

so insight, hard work, setting goals, working more than 50 hours a week to start a business is doing nothing? Taking that huge risk others are not willing to take, is doing nothing? Having a desire to work less and less as the years go by and let your company work for you in the end - is doing nothing? Only someone that never held a job could pretend running a business is 'doing nothing'.

Dumbest argument ive ever come across here

interesting tactic, a socialist trying to come across as reasonable while in that same rant hints at a government thats going to decide whether or not something you OWN is used properly. Can i ever buy my own plot of land in your world without the risk of 'the people' confiscating it?

So… like prison?

your unnatural use of the word kike is fucking retarded

Sure it is pal. Just like everyone is equal and there are no differences in intelligence, strength and motivation to get of ones arse.

Sorry communism isn't for you. Most of use don't see you as some great evil, but you still ultimately get in our way, like a random German foot soldier

Under socialism, you'll be in a gulag, every worker in the world will be given 8 hours worth of labor vouchers at the end of the workday (before taxes), and the Stakhanovites will get to fuck your wife.

Employing people in a business to make money is not some weird nifty trick to make some extra cash out being clever and spread your money, it is how you make money. As such being the best and easiest way to make a shit ton of money there are always going to be entities that are trying to the exploit this, these are the corporations. With the corporations comes all evil "crony capitalism" and "it wasn't real capitalism", the truth is you can't have "real" capitalism because if there are no rules over how property is ruled it will always consolidate and enforce its will.

Jesus christ read a book Dear Provider, its not that hard

Nice one boss!

try establishing a monopoly, test if there are no rules. Best example of these rules for instance is copyright. I draw a mouse for 10 dollar, if you can draw that same mouse for 2 dolar you should win. But its MY mouse that you are drawing, you are not allowed to. Rules.
The problem is not lack of rules, its the abundance of them.

Any suggestions? Id ask you for arguments, but im afraid ill actually have to read whatever crap you come forward with.

and it shows

no, you can quit your job and start your one man business from scratch like daddy Ford, surely this would be no problem for such shrugged Atlas as yourself
you don't even need a state loan for this, I'm sure

or you could go live innawoods
or even better go to the Alpha Centauri

What is Property by Proudhon

But Dear Provider! Your parents (im sure) worked hard for your ability to learn letters!

Here, start with the most simple and necessary of leftist economic thought: Das Kapital by Karl Marx, from there you can come back and, if interested because im sure providing for all your employees is very hard work bless you, ask for more works.

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How is getting rid of rules going to make property any less dictatorial? Ever since the deregulations in the 80's monopoly has grown in every sector. property will ALWAYS consolidate especially so with no rules. Slavery was especially bad not only because people were owned as property but because everyone else got screwed over by the rich that could afford slaves and as so the rich got richer and the poor had to sell themselves to slavery to survive. It's not much different now, only slightly less shit because we have rules that some idiots want to get rid off.

Not everyone is equal, not everyone can start a business, not everyone has value. Some people are retarded, some people are smart. Being smart is the biggest indicator for succes. Not your race, not your gender, not your sexuality. Intelligence.
good job.

Will honestly read it

i read everything by marx

i agree, nothing wrong there. Some peopel are better than others. Or do you disagree with that? If so, why do you think everyone is equal. Equality is unnatural.

So, you've read it or are you stating you've read everything by him?

but you're not everyone
you're special

surely you can start business all by yourself without all this hired labor, right?

Even if this is true (and it's pretty dumb), there's no justifiable reason for you to earn more just because you're "better". Quit stroking your ego.

Pack it in guys, this absolute paragon of ===deliberate=== human genetics clearly has the utmost god given authority over us inferior low-IQ's.

Jews are nothing if not legalistic. They typically pay whatever is owed to people who work for them. Maybe that’s why their so good at business, I guess you burn fewer bridges that way. Why is my use of the word kike unnatural?

Currency is not the sole reason for existence nor for self improvement. Running a buisness lets you help others and give them purpose. If it is what you are best at thwn you should pursue it, but from the sounds of it you are motivated to build a powerstructure so that you can exploit other people and believe you are entitled to other peoples work because the current system rewards your behavior. You act so fucking entitled. I suppose all those lottery players deserve to make millions because they took the risk of playing the lottery? Or maybe serial killers should get paid gor being so good at murdering. I unironically hope you get hit by a bus and go into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt to pay for the medical bills, lose your business, and have to work in retail just to feed yourself beans and rice

Empirically false. The economic circumstances that you're born into play the largest part in determining a person's "success".
pewtrusts.org/~/media/assets/2015/07/economicmobilityintheunitedstates.pdf?la=en

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huh, why not just distribute wealth according to the Autism Level test results then?
I'm sure Trump and Bush will approve

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Let me answer that with another question; why cant you copy coca cola and sell it yourself?

English isnt my strong suit, but i checked my library, i have read 18 works bij marx so far - and i doubt im going to read more. Some people just need 1 paragraph to convince me, Marx needs more than 18 books.

Why not?

So a surgeon should earn the same as a someone that flips burgers? So someone that is excessively ugly and dumb should mate with the prettiest and smartest person? This is not how it works in nature.
Equality is unnatural, this is a fact. The strongest animals survive, the smartest animals survive, the weakest animals die. You have evolution because in nature things are not equal. Evolution provides that edge that makes it easier for a species to survive.

I never called you low-IQ, but its interesting you think i did. I said there is no equality, in anything. You cant debate a fact. But if you disagree, you can try to find something that IS in fact equal.

Im not the OP, i just stumbled upon this thread. I am 88. That being said; my only argument is that - and i keep fucking repeating myself because somehow it doesnt connect with you - not everyone is equal. You think everyone is equal? Fine, proof it.
If you cant we can assume i am right, and that inequality is an issue you cant resolve by sheer force and determination. And definitely not by redistributing wealth entirely.

There is nothing there that disputes what i am saying. Perhaps i should rephrase my point? If you are smart, your offspring is smart. Your offspring will benefit from your intelligence, which gave you a headstart in life over others. At some point your children will inherit your wealth, the fruits of your labour, and build upon that. Making it easier for them, thanks to their (smarter) parents. Any good parent will strife to give their children a better life than they had.

First of all, why would you want to distribute wealth?
Why would you take away the joy of taking care of yourself? Earning a living, succeeding, making something of yourself is the biggest reward one could have in this life.

I can give 2 people a hammer. A smart person can build furniture, a dumb person sells the hammer. Should person 1 be punished for the stupidity and lack of work ethic of person 2?

Which ones?

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As a Georgist, I'm honestly not sure yet where I stand on your business itself. I might be a Georgist-Mutualist, in which case I assume your business would be organized and funded rather differently (assume because I know next to nothing about Mutualism).

But I don't think you can ever really own the land it's on, and so "real" property in this regard does not exist. So if your business is real estate speculation, you can fuck off and whatnot.

Marxism is darkness.
Georgism is the light.
Praise Henry George.

What the fuck are you talking about? I can't do it because it makes coca cola a shit ton of money but it completely irrelevant to anything i said. You probably might want to re-read that because it is obvious you missed the point.

but you can
just start a coop
one man == one vote
guess dat burger flipper/CEO ratio is not in your favor huh?

Where are the proofs?
What a ridiculous statement. I know plenty of "dumb", broke carpenters that can build a house. That says nothing about their level of intelligence or success.

Go back to exerting great effort into exploiting your fellow man for your profit

i like to pretend every "small business owner is confused" thread is started by the same guy

Nobody is saying this.
Good thing we're not talking about nature and are instead discussing an economic system that is entirely constructed by humans which can be altered.

Jesus, leftlibertards are such cucks

So a surgeon should earn the same as a someone that flips burgers?
No one should earn a wage at all. Communism is supposed to be moneyless. Your mating analogy is a retarded strawman that has nothing to do with economics and claiming that capitalism is just "evolution at work" is a lazy excuse for is faults.

It's a /liberty/ shitposter. Just make fun of him

the virgin anarchist: >thinks there's a difference between personal and private property
the chad authoritarian: >will take your toothbrush and wash his mouth with it in front of you

He’ll ya bich, we’re nationalizing your daughter. State-appointed girlfriends for all, R9Kommunism 4ever.

but if Autism Level determines you financial success, then wealth distribution according to Autism Level will only separate chaffs from the seeds
people who got their wealth from the state intervention wold be cast down

By that logic why arent everyone CEO's?

Sorry man but when you jerk off to your retarded magic numbers as inherent proof of your physiological superiority over others and that THAT gives you a god given right of exploiting your fellow man for your own profit ill ridicule you as much as ill ridicule someone for being a race realist. No, you are correct, there are black humans, white humans, there are mayans, french, russians, tatars, han, ainu, bantu, short, tall, big, small, people with better smell, people with bigger dicks, people with smaller ears and people with blue eyes. Physiologically we arent the same, because then we'd be clones. Good job! However having and arbitrary amount of these traits does not make you worthy of better societal, political, or economic treatment over your fellow man.

i agree w/ op
but keked hard

I have yet to meet a single small businessman that didn't bitch about their profit margin

small businesses are far worse than large ones. atleast mcdonalds pays you the agreed upon amount on time

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I dont think i did, but its a possibility, im not going to pretend to be omnipotent here. My point is that we give big business a special status by protecting their product with a plethora of rules. Copyright being the most obvious one, so i used it to make my point. Without copyright it would be a lot easier for average joe, if he even exists, to compete with these big businesses. And thats just one example. Imagine a world where small businesses got the same tax-breaks as big business. I think we both agree that some companies are simply too large, but our solution seems to be different. But if i misunderstood you entirely please rephrase.

Yes, there are less smart people than dumb people. Your point? (i also think you mean coup, unless your talking about chickens)

Did i say all succesful people are smart, where did i say that? Did i say dumb people cant be succesful? Where did i say that? Did i imply intelligence is a key factor in succes? Certainly, that i did.
Dont lie to make your point, it diminishes everything. Never said it was strictly heridary.
please…

Capitalism is evolution at work. It rewards people for the skills they have. Someone with the skillset to become a surgeon should not be burdened with people that can not. You dont have a right to someone else his labour. There is no justifiable reason to confiscate someones labour because he is better at what he does than the next person in line.

ok

What is your obsession with state. Why do you need a government looming over you, deciding what will happen with your money, your skillset, your labour? This wealth distribution you speak of already exists in capitalism. Shit people get shit pay, good people get good pay.
Yes, there will be/are exceptions. So what? Nature is not fair. I was born with a giant mole under my eye, some children are born with aids. Im lucky.
Actually, it does. If you are pretty, you will get laid faster. If you are smart, you will understand things faster. And i like to reiterate again: i never called myself smart in this entire sequence of comments. I never even implied it.
I honestly dont understand your first question. Why isnt everyone a CEO? Well, because not everyone has the skillset required to become one??? Thats the entire point of my metaphor.

this cannot be proven by any measure

That is only a representation of them trying their hardest to avoid lawsuits. They do much more damage to the environment, society, health, foreign policy, etc.

Answer me one question before i go:

No matter how unfair it is, we can all agree that not everyone is the same. Therefor not everyone is equal; why should we strife for equality?

more than a similar economy of smaller companies?

everyone is not equal does not follow from everyone is not the same. a dog is a dog regardless of how shit it is at hunting

Because we would all go extinct if we follow your idiotic implication.

why shouldn't you strife for equality of opportunity?
meritocracy can't work if some people are born into wealth while others aren't

So what does Marx say about value?

I asked you why you would want to strife for equality when equality is unnatural?
Allright, lets say i concede that and say; everyone is human but not everyone is equal… What changes in my argument? Absolutely nothing.

Yes it is, but i am ashamed to admit that my folder is a giant mess. Im willing to browse thousands of pictures for you, just be patient.

we havent yet.

Answer me this: why should we allow you equality of access to our board if your spelling skills leave much to be desired.

*?

How the fuck do you think supports copyright here? I thought you said you have read marx?

Yes, but mostly as a function of self interest.
A story about a multinational polluting is a tuesday, a story about a small business polluting is the end of that company. You could argue that this is an inforcement issue and not inherent in the company size but a multinational can always relocate as it will be cheaper to pollute and leave when the bribes stop working instead of doing the proper job.

Sure you did pal, that's why you keep making arguments against things Marx never said. Marx never stated everyone was of equal intelligence or strength, and he said that this would inevitably cause differences in material conditions.

I'd recommend you start with "Wage Labour and Capital", then "Socialism: Utopian and Scientific" by Engels. Follow that with "Capital" Vol. 1 (it's a big, dense book; so pace yourself). After that, try reading some anarchist works if you still disagree with Marx; "The Conquest of Bread" and "Mutual Aid", in addition to "Statism and Anarchy".

Oh, and "Towards a New Socialism" is a dank read. I can provide you with links to the full texts of each of these books.

So capitalism isn't a meritocratic system?
You said intelligence was the BIGGEST factor in success which as my link showed you wasn't the case as it's actually the economic position you're born into.

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not for lack of trying. You do realize capitalism became the mainstream economical system only since the last three centuries at most, right? And the accumulated damage to environment and society is really starting to show now. You know… pollution, the ever worsening cancer epidemic, widespread depression, falling birth rates, standard of living and life expectancy lowering…
I can go on if you want.

Why do you suck dick?

if your evidence for a meritocratic capitalist system is an infographic then W-E-W

Somebody's looking to get gulag'd I'm just sayin …

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You… you really think somebody could just download all that and not read it?

Just drop the appeal to nature because it doesn't work when discussing an economic system that is entirely constructed by humans.

Such a spooky question

Because even if you did "earn" it your participation and maintenance of this system keeps me in bondage, and it would really be better to just end your artificial monopoly than to have to kill you.

Which is what it's going to come down to. Either you give up "your" property or you can join your bourgeois masters at the guillotine.

oh is this brainlet again

kill yourself

That’s the problem.

Then you’re just another worker whi deserves no more net profit than any of the others.

What a load of ideology all mixed in with a leftist talking point for maximum irony. Capitalism is not meritocratic bud, it obly rewards people who can market and extract profits the best, not who contributes and does so the best.

Management is just another form of labor as are all intellectual tasks without them and physical labor nothing would be done. The problem is the extraction of profits in a massively disproportionate fashion from laborers, both physical and intellectual, because of the legal concept of private property allows “owners” to do so regardless of contribution. No one thinks everyone is equal or is entitled to universally equal pay.

Inequality of ability is not the issue.

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So if everyone did have the skillset, everyone could be a CEO?