Suffering of the worker under communism

Hey, I'm from Holla Forums but increasingly find myself leaning toward socialism, and have developed a real disdain from the laziness of the rich in addition to the unfair treatment of the poor (who toil for little).

While I've read some Marxist literature (though without knowing where to start it's been daunting and piecemeal), but I can't help worrying that it's not only a bit Utopian, but that in practice Marxism-Leninism, or similar vanguard ideologies, seem to lead to famine and poverty for the proletariat.

Maybe I'm only reading reactionary history, but the consensus seems overwhelming in regard to he evils of Mao, Stalin, Lenin, and others.

So to sum up; while I am increasingly drawn toward Marxism, I worry that in practice it only harms the proletariat and leads almost invariably toward famine, poverty, malnutrition, and shortages of commodities. Obviously you guys don't believe that, so where am I incorrect and why (in your opinion ofc)?

Other urls found in this thread:

latimes.com/world/la-fg-c1-black-russian-americans-20141119-story.html
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221064/Oppressive-grey-No-growing-communism-happiest-time-life.html
link.springer.com/article/10.2307/3342145?no-access=true
articles.latimes.com/1986-06-07/local/me-10010_1_socialist-countries
cam.ac.uk/research/news/imf-loans-“strongly-linked”-to-tuberculosis
m.imgur.com/gallery/ORROC
ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/new_socialism.pdf
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

Marxism, let alone ML, isn't the totality of the left and most of the famines are exaggerated consequences of rapid industrialization as opposed to the red banner.

You're correct. Marxism-Leninism was a mistake.
However, keep in mind a lot of claims about the USSR are made up or exaggerated.

This.
Leftcommunism (Bordiga, Pannacoeak, arguably Rosa Luxemburg), Anarchism (Bakhunin, Kropotkin, Chomsky) of the work of Cockshott (Towards a New Socialism).

This is also true. I'm not a " Marxist"-Leninist but it's not because Communism killed a hundred gorillion people, I just think we can do a lot better.
Watch Badmouse's video on Capitalism's Death Toll also.

I'm not acc muke

Could you explain what you mean when you say that Marxism-Leninism leads to impoverishment of the proletariat? You realize Russia before the USSR was a bunch of piss-poor peasents in medieval villages, right?

If you like food, you like Marxism-Leninism. Only Marxism-Leninism defeated the famine problem in Russia (and China) thoroughly. Average calorie intake in the USSR was higher than the one of the US.

Do you have a source for that? I see it mentioned often but I haven't been able to find a real source for the caloric intact per capita.

it's pannekoek, cunt

Really Muke, it's Chomsky now? Also,

It's from Allen's "From Farm to Factory".

Workers dont suffer under communism. Communism is basically utopian and has never been achieved. Workers "suffered" under ML regimes, and even thats debateable. Because they were well paid and had low cost of living.

Also all the famines have happened in countries that were very backwards anyway. They were feudal societies so obviously there would be famines.

Vodka is calories.

No it isn't.

I really wish you polcucks weren't so fucking stupid.

latimes.com/world/la-fg-c1-black-russian-americans-20141119-story.html

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221064/Oppressive-grey-No-growing-communism-happiest-time-life.html

link.springer.com/article/10.2307/3342145?no-access=true

A stateless, classless, moneyless existence isn't utopian.

articles.latimes.com/1986-06-07/local/me-10010_1_socialist-countries

[…]

[…]

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cam.ac.uk/research/news/imf-loans-“strongly-linked”-to-tuberculosis

Look at the graph. Your theory implies that vodka consumption rose over time and then massively dropped in '91 when the most depressing period for Russian happened with more alcoholism. So that's totally illogical.

The fact that the Soviets fed their population better than the US caused intense amount of butthurt. It's great. Pic related is a Soviet consumer collective. I recommend this album of pictures from the USSR:
m.imgur.com/gallery/ORROC

meant for

...

People are better off under Communism than capitalism.

Note its average. When a few men drink all the vodka instead of feeding their kids, average consumption will fall

Marxism-Leninism leads to such outcomes because it is contorted and ground down by the forces of capitalist reaction. The October Revolution was relatively bloodless, democratic and joyous occasion, but it led to a massive civil war, suffering, and the centralization of power in an authoritarian state due to a civil war against White insurgents massively funded by capitalist states. The same has been true of almost all nation-states which have attempted more moderate socialist movements - they have been invaded or bombed into oblivion by capitalist hegemons intent on preventing revolutionary change. Only hardcore, authoritarian Marxist-Leninist movements have tended to survive these assaults.

People are right to point out that the postwar Soviet states were actually pretty good places to live. The fact stands however that these countries did fall, as a consequence of the unreformable, bureaucratic systems they developed to survive, and the constant economic pressure to defend themselves militarily against capitalist aggression. The question is how to avoid being strangled to death by reaction, without being contorted into dictatorships, which is why libertarian socialist and anarchist traditions are relatively popular among the contemporary Left.

So there was an obesity epidemic in the USSR?

I'm actually not super familiar with Mao, but from what i've heard he actually was pretty shitty, if anyone wants to refute me on that lmk
A lot of the troubles that occured under him can be attributed to the social upheavals he put the USSR through as he turned it from a feudal society to an industrial superpower. Everyone wants to act like he was some insane murderer but the US spent 50 years wringing its hands over the threat of the USSR. Certainly the Purge was a massive mistake and a disaster though.
Lenin was a revolutionary, he really didn't do anything wrong if we're being honest. The most common accusation against him was that he nipped a budding democracy in the bud by disbanding the Constituent Assembly, but he had the support of workers councils, which were much more in tune with the pulse of the people, so who had a better mandate. Certainly of all the people you listed you must read Lenin, he is an indispensable thinker, whether you agree or criticize him.
So Castro comes to mind here, and just look at the reaction of the global community to his death v. the reaction of US politicians. He was universally praised as a messenger of peace, he sent Cuban doctors to disaster zones to help alleviate the suffering of the people there. The cubans who hate him in Miami are overwhelmingly political exiles who had ties or benefited from the massively corrupt Batista government. Cuba is no paradise, for sure, but considering its labored under a crippling embargo by its nearest possible trading partner and has been isolated for years, they've done ok.

If anyone wants to correct my arguments go ahead

also this, much of the awful shit Stalin did was in the spirit of combating reaction and counterrevolution. This isn't a justification in and of itself, but it is a better explanation then "he was an evil madman who butched 2090 gorrilion innocents for POWER"

you cant be serious about the second and last 2 images

It didn't really occur to me until the other day, but in the context of the day, if the Bolsheviks hadn't been able to fend off the Whites and put down these other various rebellions, there was the very real danger of Russia itself becoming a colony or pseudo-colony carved up by the other European powers, who I'm sure would only have been too happy to take a player out of the game.

Not everything they did was justified, but if the choice is indefinite enslavement and partitioning of your country on the one hand and a million or so dead bodies, I don't know.

The fifth image is a troll image in the style of Holla Forums's various anti-Africa jpgs.

The other two are right though.

The DPRK is far better than South Korea. The South Koreans literally have to convince old people not to kill themselves and young people give up friendship and love just to compete economically.

NK is full of malnourishment and economic incompetence. It's a hellhole.

I am legitimately interested. Which is best Korea, Holla Forums?

It's not the 90's anymore.

Never said famine, said MALNOURISHMENT

Ah, ok, my bad. Still, maybe they'd have more food if America stopped telling people not to trade with them.

Go back to Holla Forums.

Shows how much you want to "spread communism", eh comrade.

Grow up in south korea here.
Most people around me at the time would have been better in the north

the last one is a meme but the rest is all true
the 2nd one is completely right actually

I'm to busy spreading your mom's thighs, asscunt. Maybe if you lost that gaikokujin haircut Yoko-chan would call your ass back instead of fucking around with that bishonen or jiichan or whoever she's fuckin with, BAKAAAAA

I don't speak autism, sorry

READ THIS - Towards a New Socialism
ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/new_socialism.pdf

You can be a Marxist and against Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Castro, et al. It's called left-communism.

I happen to think you are 100% right, that Communism in practice did lead to the suffering of the proletariat in a lot of cases (famines, gulags, anti-rightist campaigns etc). Maybe not 100 million died but still a lot. Certainly not so few were killed that we can safely ignore it like some people around here seem to imply.

So why be a communist in spite of all that? Because capitalism is shit, and being exploited and living in extreme inequality sucks. If you're fed a shit sandwich every single day, and then one day someone rebels against this tyranny but can only come up with a shit burrito to replace it, who are you more mad at? At least the rebels tried. Giving in to the so-called inevitability of capitalism to me is selling the human-race short. Take the long perspective. Early failed experiments at alternatives to capitalism do not mean that capitalism is the end of history, in fact it is buckling under its own contradictions and all you have to do is look around you, and study what's going on, to see that.

yeah the failures of the USSR and other states like it does not exonerate capitalism somehow, there still has to be a better way than this. Plus at the way the capitalist mode of production is destroying the planet, a turn to socialism and communism is necessary, lest we leave a dead world to the future generations.

Also the brutality of Communist regimes testifies as to how brutal and powerful capitalism itself is, because it would crush anything less militaristic and hierarchical. See what happened in Catalonia and the Paris Commune.

Viewing actually-existing Communism as if it appeared from space is anti-materialist in the extreme. It was the material conditions of capitalism which gave shape to the the communist regimes of the 20th century.

I would put it rather starkly that if capitalism is all there is, then the human race won't last another 100 years. There is no guarantee of communism but what choice do we have but to fight for it?

Socialism or Barbarism, as Luxemburg said

1/3

I'd like to introduce you to two twin concepts, which ought to be far more widespread than they are.

One is the notions of human cost and excess deaths. These days, neoliberalism has popularized the ridiculous idea that politics should be apolitical and be just "good administrators". There's a very fallacious assumption there: it hides the human costs of policies and laws. And many policies and laws can have a human cost, even if we don't see it, but more on this later. Regardless, picture one of these Trump proposals defunding ACA, for example. It's undeniable fact that this will increase the number of fatalities. It's not a simple matter of Congress jabber and Presidential signature; that policy will have a human cost in the form of deaths that would not happen if funding stayed the same.

But this is a rather clear-cut case. Let's look at America's massive prison complex (whose average prison population rate, by the way, is already higher than Stalin's) built by numerous laws and policies that create the "school to prison" pipeline, the private prisons that have a direct profit motive to encarcerate innocents, or the fact that prison labor is mandatory according to the US Bureau of Prisons. All of these clearly have human costs, tho they're very difficult to frame in numbers as clear as excess deaths – that's one of the ways such horrid practices are hidden. And one can't even defend them on the basis that they will decrease crime; if anything, the social inequality they foster probably increases crimes and creates more hardened criminals. Again, all of it has human costs, yet for some reason only the far left seems to blame the system or the politicians. Everyone else sees them as anomalies to be corrected, implicitly accepting the system as immutable or even natural. Gulag deaths, on the other hand, are quickly attributed to both Stalin and communism. And no one sees the double standard here.

"Our" system, as in whatever system we happen to live under, is always considered the default; everything that happens in it is inevitable, and there's no culpability. Capitalism promises nothing, so even if it underdelivers, "we" just accept it as the way things are, human cost be damned. People don't even look for possible culprits because these catastrophes are seen as an inevitable part of life, and few people contest this. A famine in the third world caused by global market speculation? Shucks, but these things happen, mankind has always had famines, we can't really blame anyone, this was inevitable. A famine in the USSR caused by mismanagement during a failed crop? Deliberate extermination of peasants! Socialism's disregard for human life! Genocide!

But there's a particular type of human cost that's built right at the core of capitalism, it's reaped upon the vast majority of mankind to some degree, but again, only the far left seems to see it. I'm talking about labor exploitation. You probably know about miserable third world peasants growing food for us, and sweatshop workers building just about everything we buy but food. Legions of them are exploited all over the world, in conditions similar to that of those British proletarians of Marx's time, which puts to bed the idea that capitalism improved and don't mistreat workers anymore. Of course it does; it's just that overexploitation has been offshored. And even in countries that do manage to improve living standards, all the way up to first world countries that ended extreme poverty and overexploitation, there's still the explotation at the core of capitalism: surplus-value. Again, there's a cognitive gap here between the far left, who see it as exploitation, and everyone else, who see it as normal because it's always been like that, after all. Thus capitalism simply cannot exist without the continuous payment of the human cost of exploitation, to say nothing of the excess deaths I mentioned before.

2/3

So what's the cause of this double standards? Why are our societies so quick to shed a tear for victims of socialist regimes, yet are blind to the human costs and excess deaths of capitalism? Zizek has the best explanation I know of, which is the sother twin concepts of subjective and objective violence. The "subjective" here doesn't have the same colloquial meaning of "something individual", but rather "something that has a clear subject enacting it". It's easy to see both the act and the agent. This was more common in the socialist regimes, where many excess deaths had at least one obvious culprit, be he a Cheka goon or Stalin himself signing an execution order. Since it's easy to find the human agent of the excess deaths, it's also easy to throw the blame on the system he served too through all manner of sophistry. Even the Soviet famine of 1932-33, a catastrophe that didn't involve either of the two types of violence (unlike the famine by speculation mentioned above), can be blamed back on Stalin with intellectual dishonest connections, like "the economy was centrally planned so it was his fault" or "he created the famine himself to punish peasant populations". Neither of those conclusions can be decisively proven, of course, but neither can they be decisively disproven. That's more than enough for hacks to run away with; an intellectual-for-rent makes that affirmation in a book, it gets quoted by pundits, it makes the newspaper circuits etc. and soon enough, it becomes a factoid. A perfect example of propaganda at work. You might notice here that the American journalist class, now more cronyist than ever, has been using this tactic with careless abandon these past few years, with Gamergate having been a textbook example of a target.

By contrast, capitalist countries are mostly liberal democracies, where you'll hardly find execution orders with the President's or Prime-Minister's signature. Sure, they may enact bills that kill people by the millions – starting the drug war, or a literal war, for example – but nowhere in the bill's text is he telling anyone to kill anyone else, right? Fuck, sometimes capitalist rulers do get caught proverbially signing the execution order, but they still manage to get away with it through corruption. The capitalist State is there to serve capitalists first, after all, and the leader of any such country will almost invariably be one of them. Iran-Contra is the perfect example. Anyway, that dissimulation is enough to free the ruler from blame, while the policeman or soldier or whatever gets away with it too because he was really just following orders, and that's a perfectly valid excuse in "our" system. So there's no subject to catch the blame, and the system isn't blamed either, because like I said, it's the "natural order", the default. Thus the blame for those millions of excess deaths disappears into the void; no one nor nothing is to blame. Now let the bloodletting begin! This sort of systemic violence constitutes the objective violence (it's a bad name because it doesn't make sense, it's just "objective" in order to contrast with "subjective"). This violence is much harder to spot, and even if spotted, it might not even be recognized as violence, because, you see, it can actually seen as a normal, maybe even integral part of the system. And the horrible thing is, minus it not being violence, that's actually true. Systemic violence is the result and indicator of the smooth functioning of the system. And thus, an unfortunate Iraqi kid who gets blown into dust so Halliburton could get a stock price rise can be just "collateral damage", while a Nazi collaborator sent to the gulag can be the martyred victim of an inherently despotic system.

It's arguable which conditions cause objective violence to be invisible to a populace at large. Maybe it depends on the types of systems involved (bourgeois morality has no concept of systemic violence, maybe?), or maybe it's a universal phenomenon where people in general never see the objective violence in their societies but might spot it in foreign ones.

3/3
To use a concrete example. Stalin most definitely wasn't free of guilt, and was responsible for a shitload of excess deaths, the human cost of a breakneck industrialization. He took a wartorn, semi-feudal arctic wasteland, and in 30 years, it was the world's second atomic superpower. Few people stop to think about it, but this is a feat unlikely to be seen again in human history. And industrialization, Marx emphasized, was the only thing that truly created wealth, as it multiplied the value being created. Thus, this industrialization and accompanying social changes such as UHC (fun fact: Solzhenitsyn had his cancer diagnosed and cured while doing his gulag sentence), infrastructure and education can have saved an number lives impossible to know, in addition to obviously improving the lives of a lot of people. Contrast this with the West's wars in the Middle East. Try as I might, I can't see how it improved the lives of anyone but filthy rich warmongers, while it ended or ruined an untold number of lives. Yet, Bush, Obama, Trump et al won't be remembered as despots mass, murderers, genocidaires, butchers or anything of the sort.

Later on I'll write a post as to the very unfortunate conditions of Russia during the birth of socialism up until Stalin closing his grip on power. That's the time period that sealed socialism's fate, maybe also about the quality of life in the USSR post-Stalin.

good summary, I'll cap this for further use when people come citing death tolls as anti-socialist propaganda
please do write more

fukken saved

Th-thanks.

In retrospect I think I should have mentioned that the century or so that it took for the West to industrialize had an immense human cost too, likely bigger than Stalin's. Which I now realize is a curious parallel to war. A rule of thumb among military types is that whatever brings a war closer to an end saves lives in the end, even if it entails massive but quick bloodshed, with the primary example being the WW2 nukes. By executing industrialization as quickly as possible, he might have decreased its excess deaths considerably. Tho of course, this is all conjecture.

By the way, I suggest installing some add-on like Screengrab so you can select whatever area of a page you like.

Stopped reading there, imagine being this deluded and sheltered that this is what you thought of