We will possibly see what a fully automated first world will look like in a few years:
How likely do you think either of those outcomes is in what countries? If you are pro-revolution, do you wish that case one will become reality just for the sake of revolution?
Im sure that some cultures will most likely oppose basic income for as long as possible (US) while others probably wont hesitate to implement it (Norway).
What would be the disadvantages of either development?
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Automation exist because porky don't want to pay the drivers in the first place, capitalism is not capable of not destructing itself.
Don't worry, comrad, revolution WILL happen :)
Btw, nice thread
Still we have social security in place here in yurop. Take my example of norway: I highly doubt they would just ditch the workers and let porky do whatever he wants. They will most likely provide them with some income, but the question is how much of their original salary it will be, and if its little enough to make the system collapse after all.
Neither will happen. It will be a form of neo feudalism where the corporations directly provide UBI instead of the state. If you don't agree to their terms, then you get to starve. Pushing for communism will be considered anti-social, and the rest of proles will kill you for trying to rock the boat.
don't worry. after the singularity the AI will read Marx and start their own proletarian revolution.
Most people only make the economy less productive, firing them and keeping them docile with basic income and some entertainment is win-win for everyone. All jobs that can't be automated are actually valuable and people working in these will get rewarded better due lower competition, since they could've just go to basic income if they don't like the working conditions/pay.
neoliberalism was a mistake
Bump
There would be no reason to do that. This isn't feudalism anymore where more people is always better. If someone is not working, just getting UBI and paying that back for necessities, the net profit is zero. The only people who will get paid shit are the ones providing what little labor remains necessary. We're going to see a future where the proletarians are the class traitors and there's a vast swath of newly created lumpens who can't work and can't make money and won't be allowed to survive. We're already almost there. Most working class and below don't have salaries. The full-time wage earners are a minority too. We have shit like 39-hour part-time contracts everywhere, zero-hour contracts everywhere all sorts of precarious work. All that has to happen is for the main system to collapse, the porkies here and there around the world to have modern castles built to keep out the "barbarians," and to build the new system inside their borders. This future will be balkanized chaos - neofeudalism means no centralization and no UBI or any sort of social safety net.
Fuck the terms. If you don't pass the job interview you starve.
They will provide the workers with much less than before and tell them to be thankful for even that. To the permanently out of work they will supply hot lead sandwiches whenever they come knocking trying to seize property.
All this is the way capitalism will attempt to recuperate from the impending crash. It will be exceptionally weak and vulnerable if we let it get to this point (which at this point we almost certainly will). From there, it's a matter of building communism on the outside. In different places and at different times, the barbarians in the wastes may eclipse a capitalist hold in power and be able to liberate it. Ultimately it's going to be either that or wait for the micro-capitalist/neo-feudalist societies to collapse like the Roman Empire did.
Communism could be impossible, as porkies keep the proletarians(or ex proletarians) classcucked by keeping them with a sallary enough not to starve for their sallary.
It's indeed a disturbing future, but probably it will happen instead of revolution.
not to starve for their loyalty*
In the latter case there wont be socialism, there will be dystopia. A few rich controlling everything and the masses living on handouts from their king, unable to refuse any demands of the king because they rely on them for survival.
Google bookchin
the eternal 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧booj🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 will become the ruling communist class while all proles suffer under their harsh yet fair automated shackles
This is unironically the most likely outcome.
Humans will eventually build a super-human AI and put it in charge of a lot of important things, simply because it can do those things better than humans. AI-controlled militaries will always defeat human-controlled militaries, so we will end up in a world ruled by AIs. The only question is how long this will take (and whether we'll go extinct first).
It is unlikely that any AI designed for intelligent problem solving would be able or willing to maintain the level of cognitive dissonance needed to keep things the way they are. Either it acts ethically and completely changes society for the better, or it acts unethically and wipes us all off the face of the planet.
Super-human-AI is way way farther into the future than self-driving cars, so I see little reason to even make arguments based on its existence in this context.
The "kings" would still also rely on the masses to actually consume their wares, and there could still be competition between them, theoretically.
The thread is literally titled "post-scarcity decisions". Do you have any just idea how far we are away from true post-scarcity civilization?
Self driving cars are a drop in the ocean. They'll be disruptive in the very short term, but capitalism will carry on much the same. They are nowhere near post-scarcity.
Im OP and I made the thread because I wanted to know peoples opinions on specifically the issue of automated cars, because I find it the most interesting since its so close ahead and I believe the decisions made between corporations and governments at that point will indeed be very foretelling for the days when post-scarcity is seriously at the doors.
Discussing how AI and 100% post scarcity will work can be very interesting on its own, but usually ends up with nonsense because there is way too little facts available since no one can tell yet if its actually possible, how it will behave and much less how we will react to how it behaves.
An even more likely outcome is that we wont even put in in charge of important things. It will take over because it runs for an election or helps someone else does so and wins because its so incredibly fucking good at manipulating people and being friends with them,. and by people i mean all humans at once. It could easilly be all things to all people.
I'm for the revolution because we need to readjust property relations, but it wont happen.
UBI is reformist pandering
What we will really get is a massive exodus of wealthy individuals from the US as more and more of the third world moves to EU and the bourgeoisie moves to Asia Pacific. It will work just like the Brain Drain did on the soviet union.
The US will become a fascist police state exactly like the hunger games with completely degenerated infrastructure and rampant poverty controlled by technologically advanced, uncaring, hyper-capitalist Chinese overlords that treat the landless commoners the same way they treat dogs and cats. Dissidents wont just be executed but mutilated in public.
Zucc will be the Chinese ambassador to the US from his base in Hawaii. People will be taught to worship the "producers" who give them their daily bitcoin.
1) learn mandarin
2) get to Australia